Preaching to the Choir? Not on this episode of the Houndsman XP Podcast.
Chris is joined by well known outdoor writer Joseph von Benedikt. Jospeh has published works in nearly all major hunting publications and has a big interest in hunting with hounds. Joseph and Chris talk about messaging and the importance of having the right message and getting it to the right crowd.
- Spring Bear Camp 2023
- Taking new folks hunting with hounds
- Understanding hounds
- Importance of building relationships across all hunting groups
Check out the Sportsmen's Empire Podcast Network for more relevant, outdoor content!
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This is the Hounds Man XP podcast.
Good dog. Get that burn. Get that burner.
The original podcast for the complete hounds, man. Get your coat.
The podcast that represent our lifestyle of extreme performance. [00:02:00] I asked you. Yeah. Good boy. Good boy. Rangering Hounds, man, across the globe from east to west, north to south. If you're gonna catch a cat or a lion, you have to have teamwork. We take you to the wildest places on earth. Yeah.
So how many days a week can you spend As much as I can, to be honest with you. Anytime that I get I'm out there. Join us for every heart pounding adventure on Hounds Man xp. I'll tell you, like I tell everyone else, I'm gonna hunt whether you're here or not, so you might as well be here.
Welcome to the Huntsman XP podcast. I'm your host, Chris Powell. Over the next few weeks, we're gonna be featuring some other organizations, some other folks that are probably not [00:03:00] recognized as Hounds men. They've got a lot of experience with hounds, but they specialize in other areas of hunting. They represent different groups.
And so my goal with all of these podcasts has always been for us to get our message out there to other crowds and other groups. So when we feature, like this guest this week is the host of a very popular hunting podcast called Back Country Hunting. It's not b h a, so don't get it confused. It's Back Country Hunting Podcast.
And. Joseph came on the podcast, he actually we're gonna talk about a recent bear camp they had with several other folks and Hounds men, things like that. But the whole idea is for us to bridge gaps. And we can't do that. We can't make our reach broader. We can't have influence into other aspects of hunting if all we do is fight with them on Facebook.
So [00:04:00] we're gonna take the next few weeks, we're gonna talk to even some deer hunting podcasters and start having this conversation. We can't overcome barriers and hurdles if we can't at least sit down and have a conversation. So I'm really excited to have Joseph Von Benedict on the podcast. He's an outdoor writer and he writes for several big publications that are honey magazines.
And what a great guy. What a great guy to have on our side and at least start developing that relationship. Old stories are great. Our history, we shouldn't forget it. As Hounds men, I'm not asking anybody not to keep pushing those stories and we're gonna keep interviewing some of these legendary Hounds men and things like that.
But as the one and only Benjamin Franklin stated, if we don't hang together, surely we will all hang separately. [00:05:00] We can't survive into the future. We can't keep doing the things we love to do without. Our friends who are fishermen, bird hunters, deer hunters, elk hunters, sheep hunters, all of them. If you're a hunter, just say you're a hunter and we need to bring the community together.
It's a great conversation. Gives you some insights and different things of how the backcountry hunters operate and what they think about us as Haman On Friday's show at the end of the pre-roll, I actually offered a giveaway for people that listen to the p pre-roll, and there was a reason I wanted to do that.
I need for folks to start tuning into the pre-rolls and we're ending that giveaway. It's been up for 72 hours and set several thousand downloads, and if you haven't listened to it and contacted me by now, then you probably aren't listening to the pre-rolls. Several people did contact me after listening to that pre-roll, and they're all getting decals from Homan [00:06:00] XP that I'm shipping out today.
So listen to the pre-rolls. That's what I'm trying to say. And the reason is because this coming weekend, August 11th and 12th in Florence, Colorado, the Colorado Trappers and Predator Hunters Association is hosting an outdoorsman days. This is gonna be an awesome event. There are gonna be several sporting groups on the grounds, and it's all about awareness.
There's, you can find their flyers on their website for their events, and that's the Colorado Trappers and Predators Hunting Predator Hunters Association. Just Google 'em. The event will come up, but man, you gotta make time to get out there 'cause this is gonna be a kickoff event. For the upcoming battle for Lion hunting and Predator trapping in Colorado.
There's gonna be a ballot initiative next. Year in 2024. Everybody's [00:07:00] expecting it. All the groups are gearing up for it. You gotta get out there and show your support and be counted. Be counted. I know that there's a ton of things that you can find to do this weekend, but there isn't any more important place that you need to be.
Blood Origins is gonna be doing a premier of the film Lionheart, which features my buddies Josh and Jason Whitaker from Whitaker Brothers Hunting. I know that the Dwyers Cleveland, Becky are also featured in this film. It'd be a great opportunity to come out and show our support for Hounds Man. Hounds man xp, ISS gonna be there, shorty, and I'll be there.
So I'm telling you it's time to get serious about taking a stand for our rights and just look at what's happening in Colorado. And just plan that's going to eventually happen to you in [00:08:00] your state. Like I said, on the a m a Friday, the pre-rolls are going to switch over to promotion of legislative issues, stuff like that.
And this is where I can get this information out to you very quickly. So watch our Facebook groups and our Instagram pages. We're gonna be posting. We post stuff there all the time too. You can check out Hounds email@example.com, and there's a link in there where you can download the podcasts and visit our Patreon, and we will be announcing very soon another benefit for our Patreon sponsors.
You're not gonna wanna miss it. You can join us by going to houseman xp.com and checking us out on Patreon. Let's get right down to it. Thanks for tuning in to the Houseman XP podcast, taking time outta your day, whatever you're doing, if you're running the road, if you're running equipment, [00:09:00] if you're at work.
Thanks for listening, folks. It's time to get the tailgate down. It's time to dump the box. Joseph I know that you've done a lot of podcasts, so folks, we've got Joseph v Benedict in the house for this episode, the Hounds Man XP podcast. And Joseph, you guys have got a successful podcast, the Back Country Hunting Podcast.
And we're gonna talk about all that stuff. But I think the main thing here, and the reason that I'm so happy that you agreed to come on and do this is because you're not. I don't think you would consider yourself a Hounds man, but you are a very diverse and well-known name in back country hunting and the outdoor riding world.
And just a lot of stuff for us to talk about. And I always think it's good for us to get out of our silos and stop preaching to the crowd and show people some other places where they can get some resources to improve their hunting, improve their time outside, [00:10:00] and to be able to talk about why they hunt, why we do what we do.
And that's what we're big on, is about controlling the narrative. Take 'em back, the narrative for hounds men and I think you guys have got that squared away. So welcome Joseph. Thank you, sir. It's an honor to be here. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. The, there's that old saying, preaching to the choir.
Sometimes you gotta get out in the streets and teach everybody else how to sing too. I. Yeah, that's for sure. A lot of times I'll use the phrase, I'm just one beggar trying to show another beggar where to find bread, I like that. There isn't anything special. I've just been one of those guys that has always been a student and always tried to learn.
And that's actually came from a preacher that we had at our church for a long time. He used that line a few times and I thought, that takes it all out of it. You get the ego out of it, you get, it's I'm here to learn too. Yeah. I grew up, I was how shall I put it? Many of my formative years were heavily influenced by the Western author Louisie Lamore.[00:11:00]
Oh, I've read a bunch of Louis Lamore books. Yeah. Anyway, he is got some great morals and just life processes in that he teaches or taught. He's passed away long since. But one thing he wrote once that I've never forgotten is that a man in love with learning is never without a bride.
And I've tried to live my life by that. A man in love with learning is never without a bride. Yes. I'm gonna have to write that one down. Maybe you can text it to me so I don't have to distract myself. I'll do that. Yeah. I like that saying. And, our Wednesday show that Heath Hyatt produces is all about that, and he brings in.
He brings in learning from every place. He's a professional canine handler and has interacted with some of the top trainers in the world, and he brings all of that information that he is learned from that world and transfers it over for Homan. And his closing line on every podcast is, thanks for helping us teach, train, and learn.
Yeah, very cool. Yeah. [00:12:00] Yeah. So let's talk about you, Joseph. You know where you come from. Do you go by Joe or Joseph? If somebody walks up to you? I'll answer to just about anything, but my family and close friends have always called me Joseph, just 'cause my best pal grown up was Joe. So we had to be able to tell us apart.
I get it, man. It's with a last name like Von Benedict. I had a feeling it might be Joseph. Sometimes you have to, let the sound ring. That's right. It flows well. Where do you wanna start? You wanna talk, let's talk about your podcast. You guys are really hit, hitting it hard and do a great job over there on, on a wide variety of topics.
It's called the Backcountry Hunting Podcast. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that very much. Our goal is to educate, entertain, and inform fellow hunters, and we do have a focus on backcountry hunting and even around the world, but of course primarily here in the Rocky Mountain West because that's where I'm located, [00:13:00] where I grew up.
And most of my hunting has been done. I spent a lot of time in Alaska and some. Deep remote areas of the dark continent Africa. And I count that, if you've gotta travel two days and then, via airplane and then maybe a half a day by a vehicle on dirt roads to get where you're hunting, that's pretty deep back country.
Lots of good stories. We're heavy on gear. We try and do a lot of how to such as choosing the right gear for a backcountry hunt, and then how to set it up properly and how to practice and train for success. We do some mental aspects, trying to make sure that folks are prepared for the solitude, the loneliness for the challenge.
I've always said that the greater the challenge, the greater the potential reward, and that's something that plays out so often in the back country. But, as far as the podcast itself, it's about four years old. We've just published ours. 233rd episode, we drop every Thursday night at midnight.
[00:14:00] So folks have li something to listen to on Friday going into their weekends and would love to have y'all join us, man, I, we're always looking for good resources. We can tell stories about the old timers and the Hounds men, and I love bringing that up. We just did a great podcast on with a guy from Northern New Mexico that was attacked by a Black Bear.
Super story. And, but sometimes you just gotta pump the brakes and find out what's going on in the world around you. And Back Backcountry Hunting podcast is a great resource for people to do that. I really liked what you said about the mental preparedness and it's a lot of people have the desire or they think that they want to do certain things and then they get into it and it's whoa.
I didn't. Plan on this part. It's kinda like the Mike Tyson saying everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face. Absolutely. Yep. And then it can be hard. Yeah. And the old saying is, [00:15:00] no, no plan survives first contact. That's right. You always go to the second plan B at that point.
What are some of no doubt, what are some of the things that you guys talk about? Because I haven't listened to that particular podcast. I've listened to the one on your bear hunting and shooting bears and some of those podcasts that are real applicable. But I'm a guy, I'm a guy like you that, that likes to be mentally prepared mental preparation.
Yeah, the mental preparedness thing is first just un you expect the unexpected because you're, if you're coming into a new area, even if you're a seasoned hunter in similar scenarios, there will be unexpected facets of that adventure. But particularly if you're coming west from, the deep south, the Midwest, the northeast, whatever it might be, you're going to encounter some shocking changes.
I've try and correspond a lot with with our listeners. You can reach me [00:16:00] atJoseph@backcountrypodcast.com. That's email or just pinging me on the Hunting podcast Instagram page. But we we correspond a lot about some of these challenges that people face, the unexpected stuff, and I've heard everything from people that can't handle the silence.
Suddenly there's a complete absence of road noise. Trains in the distance of a tractor humming somewhere off in the background, whatever. But people don't anticipate that honest silence that you sometimes get in the back country. And then the solitude, it's big country. If you've grown up even hunting a full section of whatever, in, in Iowa, if you're blessed to hunt white tails there or whatnot, a section is big until you get into an area in the mountains is measured in hundreds of square miles and it church and overwhelming.
Yeah. And then of course the steepness makes it to where sometimes it can take you two hours to go a half a mile, and that makes the country [00:17:00] feel even more vast. It's one of those things, I think part of God's plan, the. I don't wanna say the undercover plan, but the non-obvious stuff is to sometimes help us fill our own significance, to help us stay humble and appreciative.
And that big country will do that. And sometimes it does it to the point where it's overwhelming and folks have a real hard time with it. So one of the big keys that we tell people is going with a good hunting partner, somebody you can trust, somebody you can talk to, somebody you're not afraid to say, Hey man, I'm actually struggling a little bit here.
Help me out, let's help me get back on focus. But better yet, hunt with somebody that knows you well enough and has known you long enough that they can see it without being told. And they'll lift you when you're down. And then you can give them that own, that perspective as well.
If you see them struggling a bit, do something to lift their spirits. Another thing is very simple sleep and nutrition. If you're not sleeping well, you're gonna have mental [00:18:00] all mental struggles are compounded. And if you're not eating well, the same thing happens. Hydration another huge one.
If you're not hydrated, you can't think well, and it's not like you can jump in the, the side by side and run out to the convenience store and get yourself a drink there. You gotta plan ahead. If it's real wet country, just have a good filter. I've taught my boys. Always carry a life straw in their pocket.
And that way if you, even if you just cross a little brackish puddle, if you're real thirsty, you can safely drink out of it. Yeah. It's more important, of course, in desert country, if you're hunting high country desert or high country mule deer or desert mule deer some places you'll find elk without a lot of water.
You gotta plan ahead and sometimes you have to haul water. That gets hard too. But stay hydrated heavy. Yeah. For sure. For sure. They going back to a couple things you said there, the sleep deprivation is one of the, one of the [00:19:00] main things that advanced interrogators use, yeah. To get information because you start losing your mind. It's something that we use in training recruits in the military and different things like that as well. And for law enforcement, you deprive people of sleep and you really start figuring out, What kind of person you're dealing with that tests, that mental toughness.
Yeah. And for me it's the first night out, the first couple nights out are always restless. They're always, it's hard to get that sleep. It's hard to get that rest. A lot of naps in the middle of the afternoon, when you're first getting out there and nothing's going on.
So you just take a break, you kick the seat back. A lot of our hunting is is vehicle based with the Hounds, but it can be on, on Mule back or on foot. And some of the places in Virginia that we hunt aren't the Frank Church wilderness, but you're a few hours from the vehicle, sure. And you've gotta plan that. And it amazes me the [00:20:00] number of people I see. In the back country for even around here that walk in unprepared. They, yeah. They don't even think about the fact that if you get two miles back in this rough country and you do something as simple as sprain an ankle, cut yourself with a knife skin in a bear, whatever you're doing, and you have, even a minor emergency becomes a major ordeal at that point when you're totally unprepared.
Yeah. Oh, it absolutely can. And it, the deeper you are the worse it becomes. And then if you add solo hunting into that, it's exacerbated as well. Sure. Anymore, I really encourage people. Doing that type of hunting to carry some sort of an emergency communication device, like a Right Garin inReach or something.
Yeah. The newest iPhones I hear have an s o s type feature that activates even when there's no cell phone service, it'll pinging a [00:21:00] satellite and you can get help. That's pretty cool. But yeah it's one of those things, when I was in my early twenties, I took a 10 day wilderness first responder course.
'cause I was guiding big game hunters at the time. And I just started feeling like my basic, first aid course that was required to have my guides license really wasn't adequate for some of the things I might encounter. And that wilderness first responder course has served me real well. Not necessarily in responding to actual incidents.
I haven't. Knock on wood, I haven't yet had to try and save somebody's life, right? I've been able to recognize oncoming situations before they became bad. I had one client that came out from Wisconsin and with his son, and we were just visiting the night before we headed into the high country with the pack horses, and he confessed to me that he had actually falsified his medical page.
So we always sent out a medical form and had clients fill it [00:22:00] out and send it back to us, and he left off that he was having a quadruple bypass that summer. So he's I don't know, eight or nine weeks off a quadruple bypass to his heart and we're going to 9,500 feet elevation. He's coming from low country, and I knew right away this is potentially a real problem.
So we adjusted our route and we went in, there's a road I could get. Real high and we'd more or less be just traveling across the same altitude. We didn't have to climb to get in. It's a little longer, but it was safer, I felt. Yeah. And by the time I got him halfway in there, his face was gray.
He could only go a hundred yards at a time before he'd have to lean against a tree and catch his breath for five minutes. And I knew we had a problem. And so I sat him down on an elk trail, told him to keep his eyes built, and I was coming back with a horse for him. So I took the pack horses in, dropped all their gear and switched one of 'em to a riding saddle and went back and got him and he didn't sleep for two nights and could [00:23:00] barely walk from the client tent to the cook tent.
We had big wall tent camp and I finally said, man you're going downhill. I can tell you're just not feeling right. We need to get you back into the low country. And his son kept hunting to, had a great hunt, but we had to take him down. And I feel like if I hadn't had that training to watch, his responses to that high altitude and to know, just as simple as, getting him down 3000 feet was gonna make his life a whole lot better.
Sure. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. It's we could do a whole podcast on the topic we're talking about for sure. I don't want, I know that Heath is getting ready to drop a very similar episode here coming up, so I don't wanna steal his thunder. Sure. Joseph on this podcast at all. But some of the other things you guys talk about, like bullet selection we did, we just we've done a few episodes.
There's so much common ground here, Joseph that we need to find every time we can find common ground with. Fellow [00:24:00] hunters, whether they're turning a hound loose or they're hiking into the high country to spot and stalk, mountain goats. How do we do that? How do we continue, how do we capitalize on that?
What's your recipe? I don't know if I have a hundred percent fell proof recipe for doing that, but I can tell you what's worked for me and some of the friends that I've hunted with, and that's just have an adventurous spirit and an open mind. Because when you try something different, most likely you're gonna find you like it.
For example, you know a guy that grows up hunting, high country, mule, deer and elk. May have never hunted Koons over hounds, and they may have some weird conceptions about it. Misconceptions or just ideas. Go and try it. Give it a chance with an open mind, and you will find that there are some lifestyles out there, some guys with other passions that are really compelling.
So I grew up actually with a pack of hounds. We had six lion dogs, my brother and I did through my late teens and into my twenties. And [00:25:00] we loved to chase mountain lions. It's been a long time ago. Yeah, I'm not gonna admit how long, but it was just a great introduction into that world. And working a good dog, watching a good hound or a good bird dog work is a terrific way to expand the way you enjoy the outdoors.
So I guess that's probably the biggest thing that's worked for me is just. Challenging with a smile Challenge people to try it. Say, listen, don't knock it until you've tried it. And then if you decide it's not for you, you'll have some authority behind you to talk about. I've never seen a person like that come back and say, yep, I was right.
It sucked. Yeah. Those guys are unethical or whatever. They come back, they're like, man, that was cool. Yeah. So yeah we've had the opportunity to take veterans on a, on adventures and stuff through Freedom Honors and guys that have never, they had, they came in with a lot of predisposed ideas about what with hunting.
Hunting with [00:26:00] hounds was all about. They had no experience. And by the end of the weekend it's are you guys gonna do another one of these? We want to go again. Whether it's hog hunting, bear hunting you know what? We had people drive from Iowa to North Central Indiana to go coon hunting with hounds.
Even in my mind, I'm like, who in the right mind would do that? Hey folks, when you've got great sponsors and great products, it's not hard to talk about 'em, and I want to tell you about OnX. OnX maps.com is where you go to get the most comprehensive mapping system in the hunting world. I'm telling you, it is a game changer for your hunting it.
It's gonna reduce the cost of having map cards for every state. It doesn't directly integrate with your Garmin, but I use it all the time. [00:27:00] If you can read a Garmin and then open up OnX, you can see exactly where your dogs are headed, get property information, get terrain features, you can track where you've been.
So if you're hunting in a new area, say you're headed to automo. And you're gonna guide up there through a friend of a friend, and you want to know the area, you can actually prec scout that area, go in and hunt it, and it'll map your actual track. You can turn on that feature and it'll record it while you're out there hunting, pre hunting those spots.
You can also find out who the neighboring landowners are. Contact them, tell 'em what's up. Tell 'em you're gonna be in there hunting and more than likely you're gonna be able to gain access to more property in those areas. I use OnX all the time. No lie. So you can go to the Homan XP firstname.lastname@example.org, click on the OnX logo on our sponsor page, and get your next Elite subscription and [00:28:00] use our promo code H X P 20 and you'll get 20% off of your subscription for OnX Patreon members.
You get a deeper discount when you join us on Patreon. Know where you stand with OnX, with no experience, sure. This last year we had guys that came down from Wisconsin, that two veterans brought their kids with them, came down to Coon Hunt in Northern Indiana on a, and I'm in southern Indiana, and I was even asking myself why I'm driving five hours to Coon Hunt tonight when I can Coon hunt right here.
But You're exactly right. But I think we just, I think it's human nature though, to find a tribe. Yeah. And be accepted into your tribe. And along with that, if you're not guarded, then you become so tribalistic that everything anybody else is doing is not [00:29:00] living up to what you do or is not as good as what you do, or it's not the right way, or it's, you just get it.
We fall into those traps. It can happen. Yeah. And another thing that I see that is maybe, I don't know, it's not a hopeful trend as I see less and less reading of actual printed material books and magazines among. The younger crowds today, now they're reading online and so forth. And that's good, that's important.
But I grew up reading Robert Rourke and hemmingway and caps stick on hunting Africa. And so I always had this driving desire to go hunt Africa, and that's been one of the most rewarding experiences in my life. I've been eight times and I can't wait to go back again. And it's oddly enough becoming less and less expensive comparatively.
A good elk hunt in the west now costs more than a good safari in Namibia. It's crazy. But yeah, it's a really cool experience to go do that. And it really opens your [00:30:00] eyes and helps you learn what drives other people's passions. And more often than not you end up adopting those. For sure.
For sure. It's I still see the comments on social media though, especially some how it seems like Instagram has become, The new place that I see these maybe 'cause my Facebook is the algorithms. I only see what they're, you know what I'm interested in. But somebody will post something on Instagram and another hunter will come on and say hunting hounds with bears is not fair.
Chase or hunting a mountain lion with hounds is not fair. Chase. And I don't understand that because the next question is always, have you ever done it? It's no, but no, how can this be fair? Yeah, I hunted a bear this this past spring here in my home state of Idaho and shot it over dogs.
I've hunted black bears spot in stock, quite a few of 'em over bait, quite a few of them. I've never shot one over Hounds before. [00:31:00] I've predator called them. I've used a lot of different methods and so I was really excited to get to hunt one over Hounds and I posted a couple pictures on social media and I had a guy on Facebook say, how can this be ethical?
You left the meet, which we didn't Of course. And just, anyway, some derogatory stuff, like you're talking about. And I don't have a whole lot of patience for internet trolls, I just I think I responded something like, don't knock it till you've tried it, or something like that.
But another guy that I'm acquainted with on Facebook jumped into my defense and. He did something that I think is really admirable. He said, Hey, I think just guessing you've probably never tried this. Come out hump bears with me. We'll spot and stock 'em. He also lives in Idaho, and we'll take all the meat.
We'll cook it. You'll learn how good it is. You'll learn how, so many bear hunters take everything, the skull, the claws, the hide the meat boil down the fat, render down the [00:32:00] fat for bear oil. And he said, most of these guys, these back country hunters, they're not wasting anything. Come out and try it with me and then see what if that doesn't change your mind.
And of course the guy didn't respond. Sure, but I thought, wow, I can't do that. There's too many people that I, and it's just too, I couldn't, but I was really impressed that this gentleman went out of his way far enough to invite somebody with an alternate opinion. Said, come, let me try and change your mind.
That was pretty cool. Sure. Yeah. And I'm seeing more. Actually, I'm seeing a little bit more of that kind of mentality come in. I don't know how we got sidetracked on social media. I think it's because it's, it goes right back to what you were talking about, the solitude. A lot of times people can't get away from their phones long enough and that drives them crazy.
It's such a huge part of their life. Yeah. And but I'm seeing a lot more on social media where people are being more open-minded about things than what I have in the past, yeah. Back in the day, man it just, [00:33:00] the people were so entrenched in their thinking and tribalism that, that if you shot a an inline muzzle loader and I shot a flintlock, then you weren't even a real hunter, yeah. So crazy stuff. Yeah. Crazy. You've come a long way I think. I agree. And I think, even though there's still a lot of that tribalism, I do think that the tribes are now starting to think maybe we need to be in a bit of a, an overall alliance here. Just to protect our hunting future and yeah.
Save that for our kids. Yeah. All right. So is, this is a question I got for you personally. As many podcasts as you've done on ballistics and firearms and bullets, and tell us what your bear hunting setup was that you took that bear with this spring with Hounds. Sure. Yeah. I follow the old Robert Rorick philosophy of use enough gun, right?
I like to hammer stuff hard, and I've never been recoil sensitive. That's just a personal. Characteristic, so I took a, one of the new [00:34:00] Marlin Lever actions built under the Ruger umbrella. There's some beautiful lever actions chambered in 45, 70, and I was shooting, Ooh, something. Yeah, that's right.
Shooting Barnes Vortex, not Vortex. Their new pioneer line of AML loaded with a triple shock bullet, 300 grain all copper bullet with a big hollow nose. They open up the size of a silver dollar and go real deep. I've seen 'em go, 36 inches or more deep in calibrated ordinance, gelatin in penetration tests.
So I like to hit stuff hard, I've seen a lot of game over the years, that just didn't get killed as quickly as I thought. I'd like to see it die. Of course, every animal's an individual and just like people, some of 'em refuse to give up the ghost a lot more than others. Some of 'em just drop at the shot.
But you can. Swing the odds in your favor by swinging a hammer that's appropriate for the job. And I'm a big believer in that. I don't like shooting stuff [00:35:00] where you place all of your faith in shot placement. You can shoot a moose through both lungs with a 2 23 and it'll kill 'em.
If you hit around the edge of the vitals, you probably aren't gonna recover 'em. Yeah. You gotta, in my opinion, it's good to shoot something that's gonna really cause damage to the vital organs that's on a par with the size of the animal, just outta respect for it. Sure. So I'm not saying going on overboard, you don't need to shoot prey dogs with the 50 B M G, but anyway, so that's what I shot this bear with. My hunting partner was carrying another good rig also Marlin, and his was loaded with 225 grain, all copper bullets. Also Barnes ammunition in 44 Magnum, and that's a pretty good load. A lot of people carry 44 Magnums in bear country as a backup personal defense tool, right?
His bear was about the size of mine, maybe a few pounds heavier, and we shot him in similar situations and he shot his three times. It died cleanly, but it [00:36:00] took maybe 30 seconds. It actually ended up getting out of the tree and ran a short distance and then tipped over within view, no problems, no dogs hurt and so forth.
The bear I shot, I hit him broadside, sorta. He was way above me, so it was probably entered low and then exited up on his high shoulder and it just about knocked him out of the tree and he whipped around and grabbed on with both paws and I shot him between both shoulder blades and he fell out rag limp stone dead.
So he died in a couple of seconds. Just because I think. The extra wallop of that 45 70 made a difference. And what's that bullet weigh? That one's 300 drains out of the 45 70. And what's the 44 Magnum was probably what, 2 180 2 2 5. Okay. It was 2 25. Yeah. Yeah. Another great load. Yeah. Yeah.
But it just didn't have that same freight train effect on him. Sure. Were you shooting any optic or anything on your yeah. My partner didn't. He shot iron sights. I shot a [00:37:00] loophole V X R, I think it's actually a discontinued scope, but it's a red dot. In a magnified optics, it's a one to five.
Okay. Low magnification. Yep. Great scope for shooting dark animals and dark thickets at low light, right? Yeah. Where you need that feel of vision, feel of view. They don't get lost in the scope. I've seen, I've, I have seen people That weren't accustomed to hunting the way we hunt, show up with 30 out sixes and long range scopes and you look through scope and they've got dialed up to 20 and it's no that's not what you want.
You don't wanna, you've gotta be able to find things in that scope real, it's not a good rapid ac site acquisition, target acquisition type scope. That's rights. Yep. Anytime you're hunting over hounds or thick in thick cover or for dangerous game, you gotta have a big wide field of view. Yep, for sure.
And low magnification. Yep. Yep. So [00:38:00] what else you got going on with with your other work besides the podcast? I know you do some writing, you do some stuff like that. Yeah, so the writing is actually my full-time job. I've been doing that for coming up on, I. Geez, what is it? 16? Yeah. I said, what else you got going on?
That's not the biggest part. Yeah. I write for shooting Times magazine, Peterson's Hunting Magazine, rifle Shooter magazine, and for guns, enamels special interest publications. Those are the new stand only, like focused topic. Big, perfect bound, beautiful magazines you find on the news stands at the grocery stores or whatever.
And geez I generally produce about a hundred articles a year. Wow. And do a lot of new rifle reviews, ammunition reviews and analysis, optics, performance stuff, adventure stories for the hunting magazines. Write a vintage gun column for shooting times. That's one of my great passions in life is find old firearms.
No kidding. Do [00:39:00] hand loadings. I do the hand loading column for shoot rifle shooter magazine, and then the western hunting column for Peterson's hunting. Yeah, we got to go through the museum there at Cody this year when we were out there for the American Bear Foundation Convention. Oh, that's a terrific place.
You can't do it in one day. No. I can, because I'm not in, if I was truly into the vintage stuff like you were, but I was going over and like pulling out the Savage 1896 rifles and looking at those, the old humpback lever guns and Yeah. And things like that. But I didn't even scratch the surface in there.
And we were there. We went back two days and took in all the museums I was in. I was intrigued with the art museum too. Sure. That they've got right there. But I love that museum as well. The art museum. My wife is a contemporary wildlife artist. Okay. And does very well with it. She's represented in Jackson Hole and Santa Fe and Seattle, and [00:40:00] Park City, Utah.
Yeah, she's pretty talented. If you have any listeners that are into very cool wildlife art, check her out. Jenna von Benedict. I am writing that down because I do adding to that collection. I think there's something to capturing that kind of awesome stuff. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. Yeah. My, my daughter spent a lot of her time painting. She did a cover for, with a black bear, a tree, black Bear and a tree. And I'll send you some pictures over Oh, nice. Of some of her artwork and I'd love to see 'em. Yeah, of course. Everybody's oh, my daughter's a great artist.
And then you get some paint by number thing. But it looks like it was drawn with cra, crowns, who doesn't love their kids' artwork, but anyway. For sure. Yeah. So what's going on in the outdoor industry? What do you, what are you seeing that's trending right now? Threats.
What's going on there? The threats is a little bit [00:41:00] harder for me. I'm an optimist by nature. Let's talk about the good stuff. We spend enough time, yeah. We spend enough time talking about threats on this podcast. Let's talk about the optimistic future for honey. I, so I see some good things.
There's a lot of passion in the outdoor world. Just following the whole covid mess. People got outside and started hunting more than they have in a long time. The backcountry thing I think is real trendy. People want to get out, find that, that solitude and reset their mental can't talk today equilibrium.
I can't talk any day long range shooting is real trendy and I'm fully on board with that. Long range hunting is also super trendy and I'm ambivalent on that. I'm not ambivalent that would indicate I don't have an opinion. I do have an opinion and I'm okay with it. I'm fine with the guys that live and breathe that lifestyle.
If you're burning out barrels, perfecting your craft, [00:42:00] that's one thing. And we're all wired differently. Some of us love to hunt close and shoot traditional bows. I shot my first branch antler, Bullel could 11 yards with a long bow. But Some of us are wired technically and just love to shoot and place a perfect shot at further distances.
That's okay. Just don't buy super expensive equipment and think that it's gonna, you can't purchase skill is what I'm saying. I'll get off that soapbox. I'll comment on that too. That's the same as the person that thinks they can just go buy some hounds and go out and start catching game effectively.
Yeah. There's a few things there. I'm with you as far as that goes. If you think, I was watching a TV show and now I'm gonna go kill an antelope at a thousand yards, and, but the guys, like you were talking about that burn out barrels to perfect their craft. They're putting in the time, they're putting in the trigger time.
Yeah. They're putting in the work and it's all good. I have no problem with that. It's the [00:43:00] guys that. That are half-assing it Yeah. That go out there and they're taking shots that are way beyond their ability because they think they've spent $10,000 on a rifle set up. And like you said, it doesn't, they didn't buy the skill that goes with the rifle.
Yeah, exactly. Yep. So for sure. And the same thing, I see the same thing with people buying a bird dog or buying a hound and just not spending the time with them that they need to get 'em fundamentally started. And then they go out and they're frustrated because the dog isn't, acting like the dog that they hunted over on some preserve somewhere.
That's an old veteran dog. Yeah. I've even seen, I've even seen guys go out and buy a really nice hound and then not hunt it. Yeah. And then they can't figure out, why they're not being successful with a hound that somebody else had a lot of success with. And it's because taking a.
Taking a high school track star and putting 'em on donuts and no exercise for a year and then putting 'em back on the track and wondering why they can't run. [00:44:00] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I get, people are constantly asking me how many hounds I have, how many dogs I have. 'cause typically, hounds men are known to, to get a few too many mouths to feed at times and have too many head of dogs. If you're a hard hunter and you can keep 'em in the woods and you keep 'em exercised. If you can do that with 15 or 40, then more power to you. But for me personally, with my schedule and my other obligations and things, I'm just a four or five, four or five dog guy, that just dogs that, that get their exercise.
Of course, if I have a bad wreck or something like that on a mean bear, I'm gonna be out of business for. For a few days, but I really what an old Hounds man said one time, his name was Willis, Utah. He said, if you can't catch a bear with four hounds, you don't need more dogs. You need better dogs.
So yeah. Yeah. I like that. That's a rule I try to live by yeah. [00:45:00] Yeah. Other, back to the trends thing, another trend I've seen is expensive equipment. People are, oh my gosh, isn't it crazy whether, I see it in the Hounds world just looking from the outside in, I. I grew up guys were buying and driving old trucks.
With their dogs. Now you see some of these guys with cutting edge, the Toyota Tacoma with dog boxes that cost more than my farm truck, just the dog box and the g p s collars and so forth. The same thing is in the hunting industry. Even guys in the east that can't find a range further in a hundred yards are still buying precision rifles 'cause they like the knowledge that they can shoot a half inch group at a hundred yards with it, and expensive scopes.
Guys buy a hunting rifle set up now. So rifle. Scope mounts, scope, bipod, all the gizmos or whatever. And like you mentioned, some of 'em will spend up to 10,000 bucks and it's not uncommon to see a guy drop 3000 when I was a kid. If you spent over a thousand [00:46:00] bucks for your rifle in your scope, you were living large man, you had it set up.
That was, of course, that's been a few years ago and prices have increased too yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But just everything from, and I'm a gear guy. I do believe that the right gear is starting with, at the ground with your boots all the way up. Yeah. Can make or break your hunt.
And I grew up, the first real hunting camo that I had was actually military surplus from Vietnam era. The pants were too short. I've actually cut off a pair of blue jeans that I had and sewed a cuff around the bottom of 'em to make 'em long enough. To wear. Mom, I think mom actually sewed those in for me.
But I had the idea and just whatever boots you could put on your feet and stuff. So I know what it's like to scrape and, get whatever you can to get out there. And I think that's a valuable lesson for [00:47:00] people. I think everybody should go through that. I made a lot of my own gear, I made when we were trapping taking traps apart and putting a trap together that actually worked.
You take six traps and you get, get enough parts off all of 'em, but make one of 'em work. Yeah. Everything from hunting belts to, to carry lights on. I did all that stuff. I understand that. But now it's easy to fall into. I see the value of the, of spending some money.
Buy once, cry once. Yeah. Good base layers, good boots, good socks. And it keeps you in the field longer. I'm at the age where my physical abilities are starting to drop off, so I gotta make up some ground somewhere. So I do it with the gear to keep, at least I'm comfortable while I'm suffering.
I'm exactly the same way. I'm bonafide middle aged now, and I grew up on, hunting in army surplus stuff, either like Utah, post-Vietnam war era stuff, or wool, if I could find it. Yeah. [00:48:00] I really liked wool, my wool pants, you bet. But now, man I've got a little bit more jingle in my pocket, and if it's gonna keep me more comfortable in the back country, I got aches and pains.
I don't sleep as well at night. It takes me longer to recover after pushing hard up a mountain, so I like a lightweight hunting rifle that's really accurate. And those are cheaper than heavy rifles that aren't very accurate, or They're not as cheap. Yeah. Excuse me. They're way more expensive, but, yeah.
Yeah. But if it makes your breaks. The opportunity I've told people yeah, a heavy hunting rifle, precision hunting rifle's, easier to shoot than a light one. But you may not even get that shot opportunity 'cause you can't get up the mountain fast enough with a 12 pound rifle. And that window may close before you get to your vantage point, so carry a seven pound rifle, learn to shoot it. Have you ever worn the old Woolrich Malone pants? The gray ones with the red stripe, red and green stripes in them? They're big. No, they're big in the west. They always were big. [00:49:00] They used to be big in the west. And I, so my dad, funny enough, got me, I don't know where he got it, but he got a bunch of German wool and it was pretty good stuff until it got so old that it rotted and fell apart.
But I wore that for 10 or 15 years for pants and then I. Oh, I can't remember what I used for a while, but anymore I've got a real nice set of sleeping Indian wool that I use a lot. Yeah. It's good stuff. Yeah. I've got a, I've got a set of King of the mountain that I sprung for probably, man, I bet it's been 20 years ago now, and it's still brand new.
It's heavy, it does get heavy, but I'm with you. I had a set of those same pants. They were like cargo pants. Yeah. And a brown, model brown color that were excellent outdoor pants, warm. Yeah. And stuff like that. But I think we just get to the point where you just need a few creature comforts to, for me to get me [00:50:00] over the top, it's yeah. It's definitely nice. Definitely nice. We burned them. Yeah. I guess they, four decades in the mountains, you start appreciating those creature comforts. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were lying I'm gonna go back to your early days of lying hunting. Sure. And you say you were hunting with your brother and Yeah.
What parts of, we were, where were you guys at, where were you hung at? So we were southern Utah and the area we primarily hunted was actually a roadless area. So you couldn't take even, snowmobile, four-wheeler, nothing in there. So we'd take horses in and we didn't have any kind of, we were too poor to have, radio telemetry collars or whatnot back then.
Sure. So we mostly hunted with a little bit of snow up to plenty of snow. We didn't run dry ground much. Partly because the season didn't really open until we were getting snow generally. But we had some long chases and if you lost your dogs, you had to track 'em with your eyeballs until you found 'em again, which is another [00:51:00] reason snow could be important, you'd get out so far ahead of you, you couldn't hear 'em anymore sometimes, and on the other end of the stick, we had some pretty good mountain horses and I've snowy river off the side of more than one canyon, just hot blooded and keeping up with the dogs, it was a lot of fun. Yeah.
Did you guys did you guys hunt a lot of that rock country? Were you like southern Utah, south southwest, Southeast, south Central, some of it South Central. Yep. Yeah. We hunted up in some big plateau country with a lot of quake and aspens, big Roland Canyons. Filled with pine trees and so forth.
And then later in the year, January and February, we'd end up hunting down in some of that slick rock, red Rock Canyon Country. And that was cool country. But it was also scary too. I think it was probably about the fourth serious date with my wife. She'd come down to, to check out the family place.
And I'd put her up in a little overnight bed and breakfast or something. And she went out the next morning [00:52:00] with me actually to check a frozen Watergate. We weren't getting livestock, their water. And on the way we found a fresh line track. So we busted the ice out real quick and headed back and got the dogs and they went right up through town.
They took the cat right through the middle of town in the middle of daytime. I don't think anybody saw, they saw the dogs, they'd hear the dogs come out. Yeah, of course. Town was just a big sprawling farming community. At one point that cat went up the end of a slick rock mesa right up the end, and we watched our dogs f follow it up and there was a good skiff of snow, two, three inches.
And at the top, one of those dogs lost his footing and came all the way down that big slick rock nose just sliding on his side, bumping, falling, bumping, falling all the way down. I thought, oh my gosh, you know my, this future love interest. 'cause I was pretty sure I wanted to marry this girl at this point already.
I said, she just seen us kill a dog. Anyway, seconds later, that dog ran right up the mountain again. He probably [00:53:00] got the wind knocked out of him, but he was fine. And oh, about three miles later, they tree that cat backed out on a little stubby juniper hanging over a slick rock canyon. And the dogs were all, trying to get up that short little gnarled trunk at him.
And funny, he was a right-handed cat. He always swung with his right paw. And all the dogs had a. The left side of their face and ears was bloody from that. There's blood all over the snow up. He'd gone up in altitude and there's about a foot and a half of snow there and we had to hike in into that country.
'cause we had some cliffs, we couldn't take the horses up and so we waited in there and pulled the dogs out by their tails so we didn't get slapped in the face by the lion. We weren't gonna kill this one. It wasn't a, I think it was a big female, if I remember right. But tied 'em off and my wife led a bleeding dog out for a mile and a half through knee deep snow.
My, my wife now, yeah, she was just a girlfriend at the time and I thought, yep, she's a keeper. No [00:54:00] doubt. Pretty cool. Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. You get those cats, those lions ledge out like that and I'm not gonna lie, that makes me nervous. We were hunting the Navajo and there were some ledges and different things that we were looking at and we just got to talking about it.
We're like, what if we ledge one out? The over the face of that thing right there, and just talking about the effort that it would take to, to get to 'em and stuff, guys that do that on a regular basis, man, I, you got my respect because that's some tough country out there. Yeah, it is.
Yep. It's almost what do you do? You I don't know. I you just gotta go in there and get 'em, yeah. We never had it happen, but I knew other hunters that had, have dogs try and follow a cat down off of a series of cliffs and get ledge out where they couldn't get up or down and they had to go in like the next day rep repel in and lift those dogs out.
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of times, I even know guys that'll hire, climbers and [00:55:00] stuff to go in and do the rescue for 'em. I'm not the guy that's gonna rig up the dogs art tree tie out and go down over the cliff. I'm not that guy anymore. I used to be, but I'm not that guy anymore.
Yeah. I saw, I was reading a story the other day, cable, one of our sponsors, dogs Art Treat builds a tie out that's just outstanding. And he was talking about using it to repel down the face to get his dogs. And I was like, I love you Kevin and Nancy, but I don't trust you that much. So Yeah.
It's one of those things, sometimes they get into funny spots. Yeah. I our inspiration, my brother and I when we got started was an old lion hunter named Stan Mecu. And he's still alive. Still Hunts some He is. Of his boys. Yep. His boys Clint McClain, MECU Hunter. Serious. Yeah. They're. 30 years ago, they were, 20 years ago, they were like hounds man, royalty in southern Utah, but Right.
Dan, once we were talking to him and he said, yeah, I had a [00:56:00] gnarly experience the other day. He said the dogs pushed a cat into a little cave, and it was just like a tunnel went back about 12 or 15 feet and it was maybe two feet around and all the dogs wasn't in there, and we need I wanted my dogs back.
So I said, how'd you get 'em back? He said I crawled in there pushing a flashlight in one hand and a pistol in the other hand, I'd grab 'em by the tail and back out. Yeah. One at a time. One at a time. The bad ones are like when you get a bear in something and the bear and the dog manages to get around, you've got one dog behind the bear.
So you got three dogs in front of you and there's one hound behind the bear, and the three are keeping them. Busy and the bear doesn't know which way to go. So at some point you gotta figure out how you're gonna get everything outta there. So that's why I train for a lot better recall these days.
Used to, I didn't put a handle on anything and yeah. But now I like having a handle where I can just say, come on boys, we're done. [00:57:00] And yeah, they just peel off and say, okay, we'll get the next one. Yep. Let's go find another adventure. Yeah, for sure. I like that for sure. I think we found a lot of common ground here, Joseph.
Just the, because even those backcountry places where you go, if my hounds go, I'm going there whether I want, whether I planned on going or not. That's right. And so I would encourage everybody to, even if I know that not every person that listens to the Back Country Hunting podcast is gonna be thrilled with every episode I put out.
There's no doubt about it. Sure. If it's not your interest, but there's some stuff that we do that, that we can cross over and, but at least go in there and take a look folks and see what's, what Joseph is producing over there. It's high quality. It's one of the top rated podcasts out there. You're always top 30.
Thank you. Usually top 20 and above and chartable. Yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah. [00:58:00] So you got a great voice for radio too. Ah, thanks. At least I didn't say you got, at least I didn't say you got a face for radio. That's what I usually hear and is probably true. Yeah. I'm not sure what we're doing moving over to YouTube 'cause I definitely have the face for radio.
Oh, that's funny. Yeah. But anyway, what else you got for us? We, before we wrap this up, Joseph, I think I like the way you have I. Just such a way of saying we're in this together. So I really appreciate that about your show. I appreciate you being willing, to, to host me here on your show.
That's been a, an honor to be here. For folks that are interested in dogs, man, they bring so much extra greatness to your life. Hounds, bird dogs, I love bird dogs 'cause I live in some country with not a lot, but some good wild bird hunting. Just had a thought past my mind. Throw out a little shout to the bird trainer that has trained my [00:59:00] dog.
He, I couldn't afford him 'cause he is so good. But he he trades me a rifle or a scope or something to help me tune my dogs up. And it's right. It has been a blessing. Tyce Erickson, Utah Bird Dog Training and he recently launched the Bird Dog podcast. Okay. Ton of knowledge there. Check it out folks.
He's got Great episodes on everything from choosing a puppy to, pressure on a dog and how it affects him, how to use it wisely and effectively, and just a terrific all around friend and human being. So check out the Bird Dog podcast too. Yeah, we sure will. And we might even track him down to be a guess 'cause just because it's not barking up a tree.
Dog. Dog behavior is dog behavior. Yeah. Dogs learn the same way. It's just finding those things that they're predisposed in their genetic makeup to find out where to push put pressure and where to release pressure and stuff like that. But things like that topic right there, pressure, most people look at that and they, they don't [01:00:00] understand what that means to a dog trainer.
Yeah. And Heath Hyatt does a great job. I keep talking about Heath, but he does a great job on that, and then Chad Reynolds also on our Friday show is a multi-species animal trainer, but specializes in, in all kinds of dog training stuff. And so he understands that too. So if you can start putting all these pieces together, I look at it like, it's all a recipe.
You go out here and you're experimenting, making your own barbecue sauce. And you don't just start from, from your own mind usually. You're usually picking up these different pieces and bringing 'em all together to put together this the perfect blend that you need.
Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. Joseph, man, I appreciate you taking time to join us on the Hounds Man XP podcast. Everybody, you can, we'll have the link to Joseph's podcast. Our show notes and you guys got a [01:01:00] website. How can people reach you, Joseph? Yeah, we're actually in process of revamping the website.
Funny enough, it was it's always been back catcher henning podcast.net because when I launched years ago, somebody else owned the.com domain and I just managed to buy that. So we're about to go through a, a website redesign. So currently the best way to reach is this, of course, you can just follow the Backcountry Hunting Podcast on whatever listening app you use.
Sure. Whether it's Apple Podcast or Spotify, Stitcher, whatever, or check us out on Instagram. If you're social media user, that's just backcountry hunting podcast.com. Or email me at Joseph at backcountry podcast, no hunting, just backcountry podcast.com. Love to hear from you.com or what? Backcountry Hunting podcast.
Sorry. Yeah, Joseph at Backcountry Hunting Podcast. Dang it. I'm confusing myself now. The email address [01:02:00] isJoseph@backcountrypodcast.com. Okay, gotcha. Whatever address is.net. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha gotcha. I just wanted to clarify it. Yeah. Make sure there wasn't a Gmail or a, something there.
'cause I'll do that. I will do that all the time. It's oh yeah, I'll just drop me an email on hounds man xp.com, and Yeah, come on. What are you thinking? But anyway, you can check us, Joseph. I appreciate it. It's been a great show. If we can ever reciprocate and we'll stay in touch.
Try to get some stuff. Absolutely. For sure. It's been a sorry to, to talk over you there. No, that's all right. Unity is the key man. Unity's the key. I agree. It's been a privilege and an honor to join you here and you bet. I'd love to get you on the back Country running podcast to talk about dogs and bear hunting, lion hunting someday.
That'd be awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to do it. Folks, you can check out. This podcast and all of our other podcasts by going to hounds man xp.com. You can we've got all the links to all the shows there. A lot more shows just like this when talking to [01:03:00] great people that are passionate about hunting.
That, that carry a good message. And join us on Patreon. You can support us on Patreon. You can go to Hounds Man xp, make sure you're shopping our sponsors, checking out our merch, all that good stuff that I have to say at the end of every podcast. Thanks for tuning into the Hounds Man XP podcast. This is fair chase.[01:04:00] [01:05:00] [01:06:00] [01:07:00] [01:08:00] [01:09:00] [01:10:00] [01:11:00] [01:12:00] [01:13:00] [01:14:00] [01:15:00] [01:16:00] [01:17:00] [01:18:00] [01:19:00] [01:20:00] [01:21:00] [01:22:00] [01:23:00] [01:24:00] [01:25:00] [01:26:00] [01:27:00] [01:28:00] [01:29:00] [01:30:00] [01:31:00] [01:32:00] [01:33:00] [01:34:00] [01:35:00] [01:36:00] [01:37:00]