Deep and Lonely: Is it Good to Ya?

Show Notes

On this week’s episode of Deep & Lonely on the Houndsman XP Podcast Network, join host Bryce Matthews as he makes his way over to the PKC Black & Tan Days event in Monticello, IN. 

Bryce is joined by Billy Anderson and Cavin Collins to discuss why they choose to hunt Black & Tan Coonhounds and what made one of them switch over to the Treeing Walker Coonhound after years of devotion to the B&T breed. The three have a great time catching up with each other and cover everything from registry rules to stubborn cliques within breeds. As you sit back and enjoy this episode ask yourself one question……IS IT GOOD TO YA?!?

Show Transcript

[00:00:00] My name is Bryce Matthews, and this is The Deep and Lonely Podcast presented to you by Hounds xp. During this podcast, we will dive deep into what makes the ultimate top level and unmatched extreme competition. Koon Hunter. We will hear stories of old tales of today, and we will dive deep into what separates the men from the boys.

The stories will be raw, the truth will be told in the camaraderie will be second to none. Pull up your chaps. It's about to get deep.

All right. Hot or not, remember the game? Yeah. Remember the website hot or not? Whenever you swipe on the pictures. Are they hot? Are they not? All right. This is the deep and lonely [00:01:00] version. Hot or not? Okay, Billy, I'm gonna start with you. Okay. Pkc Hot. I wasn't ready. Oh shit. That wasn't the question. Oh, okay.

Pkc Le Lock. I'd rather not be le Lock. I wanna keep cutting loose as much as I can. Okay. Billy says, not Kevin. Pro sport, whole cast has to stay together. Hot. Hot. He likes it. Yeah, I like it. So you don't like whenever people can go and handle their own dogs? No, because you can get into a lot of problems like that.

I feel like. Not all the cast, but I've been on a few casts where you get one guy that's going a mile to his dog and then everybody, oh, he wasn't there, he is moved him and all this. And so I'd rather everybody stay together. Okay. Billy u kc having to finish with plus points. I prefer tree in Koons, but I could see like where issues are, weather conditions or Like in our area, you're not [00:02:00] gonna tree a lot of coons.

Three coons on a cast is a pretty good night, so I think they should switch a little bit like pkc. So is it hot or not? I'd say not. Ooh, he says not interesting. Interesting. All right. Let's see if we can get one more outta here. What's another hot topic of controversy? It's not a hot topic of controversy, but this is one that I feel pretty strongly about.

PKC or U K C? Kevin, either one. Pkc, that wasn't the question.

One hour casts. No, not I'm the same way. I think a 90 minute is the minimum. Very minimum, yes. Oh man. A one hour cast is tough. All right. That was a good way. That was a good way to bring it in, boys. All right, guys. I hope you guys enjoyed that. A little different way to start off this podcast.

Welcome to the Deep and Lonely Podcast, presented to you by the Hounds Man XP Network. I am your host, Bryce Matthews, and today I got two boys up here in northern Indiana. Traveled all the way down [00:03:00] here, up here from Georgia. I got Mr. Kevin Collins and Bill Anderson. How you guys doing? Pretty good. How about you?

I can't complain, man. Kevin. Good. Not really. My legs hurt from the hills last night. Listen, buddy, you're gonna have to step it up. You're gonna hunt up here and who's your state? And this is flat. This is flat ground. Woo. I don't wanna see y'all's mountains. Then if you wanna see mountains, let's go to the dance hall.

Hey, I like the dance hall. The dance hall guys. That is a place when people come up here to Monticello. You either love it or you hate it. There's a ton of Koons in there, but it is straight up and down, which is outta the ordinary if you're up here in northern Indiana, tends to be pretty flat, but the dance saw something about it.

It's a rough one. So we're up here today talking with these gentlemen. They came all the way, like I said, from Georgia to the pkc. Black and tan day's event, and that's been gonna be the topic of today's discussion. We're gonna talk a little bit about the why and if you guys listen to the journey with Heath Hyatt a couple weeks ago, he talked about the why they hunt him and Bebe.

We're gonna [00:04:00] talk about the why as far as a couple different breeds, and I think today we're gonna stick with the tree Walker Coonhounds and the American Black and Tan Coonhounds. We've got a couple guys here who, one of them. He plays for both teams. He likes the black and tans, and he is converted to a walker.

We got another fella here who is a hundred percent diehard black and tan man. And you got myself, who I would consider myself a walker guy if I, it just, it is what it is. I'm a walker guy. So we're gonna talk about the why of this and how they got into it. What made them attracted to these breeds and in the sport of competition, coon hunting.

Where those breeds are going and what sets them apart. So Billy let's start out with you. Okay. The Black and Tans, how did you get into 'em? I was actually just scrolling one day and I come across a dog and he was in Georgia on the Ukc form and it was like the like. Nobody could paint a picture better the way this dog looked.

He was standing by himself, all in front of these trophies and it was a rocket fuel. So I was [00:05:00] like, man, that is just that's what I want my dog to look like. If I had to hand paint a dog jet black, shiny as it can be. I was like, that's the dog I want. So that is what it caught your eye No more, no less.

A picture of a dog made you a black and tan man. Yeah. Okay. Kevin, you started out in the black and tans? No, actually I started out in the blue ticks. Oh, ouch. Okay. Yeah. My dad's a big blue tick guy. I didn't know that, honestly. Yep. Since I've met you a few years ago, you were packing a black and tan guy.

Yeah. I always just assumed you were a black and tan. I started hunting with Billy and I really didn't have nothing to hunt. I had a little blue female that I just wasn't too impressed with. She could tree Koons, but she wasn't no competition style dog. And Billy had his joker dog. And we started hunting together and he had another dog named Black that he was pushing and Joker got to the back burner and we started, both of us could hunt him and Billy would go in early for work and I'm stooping stay up all night.

And Billy would go home, go to bed, and I'd keep hunting that joker dog. And man, he'd, he turned out to be a [00:06:00] really nice dog. So that's when I stayed with the black dog there. And I got my sassy female and started pushing her some. So that's how I got the black dog was through Billy's Joker dog, but from the age of 16 to about 25 a hundred blue ticks.

I did not know that about you. That's interesting. See, this is what another part, I love doing these podcasts. You learn stuff about people every single time. So the Black and Tans, they are the oldest dog in the registries, I believe. As far as the Coonhounds, like they were the first registered breed of Coonhounds.

They've been along around the longest. And we've actually got one laying right here on the bed next to us record recording this podcast in the hotel we got a black and tan on one bed. We got a walker dog on the other bed. Two totally different style dogs. We got the black and tan sleep over here snoozing, and we got the walker dog who wants to join the podcast and eat up the mic here.

Being Kevin's buddy, I think there's a lot to be said about the different personalities in the dogs. What kind of [00:07:00] personalities would you describe the black and tan breed as Billy? A lot of laid backness. They're chill for the most part. The ones I start, I like a dog that has a great personality, not one that just is all business.

Like my joker dog, that cabin hunted, like I swore me and Micah cuz he was off a Batman. Mike. That'd be Micah Ays. Yeah. I'd send him like Snapchats him and me and Kevin in the yard. I'd throw a tennis ball, he'd jump in pond and go get it and bring it back to me. And so I love a good Smart dog. That's just chill.

And that's what I've had good luck with. So I just stuck to 'em. Yeah. And the walker dog for me, like I would say they're definitely more high strung. Yes. I've got a kennel full of walker dogs right now, and some days they drive me a little crazy, just, pacing the kennel, bouncing off the walls.

I've got a couple that are laid back, but most of 'em are very high strung. They're not chill. They wouldn't just be laying here like this. As far as the ones that are in my kennel now, I have seen some that are more laid back, but as far as ones are my kennel they're high strung. The black and tans, like I said, being the oldest coonhound Regis in the breed registries, do you think [00:08:00] they have changed much over the years?

Yeah. I'd say they changed. They've got a little quicker, but I'm probably gonna get hated for this. I feel like they, they're still a lot to go, to compete with, Walker dogs, to be honest. A bunch of 'em don't start as early and then, They just don't, it's very hard to find a black dog that's got that gear and I hate to say that, cuz that's what I'll hunt till the day I die.

But they just don't have some, most of 'em I've been with don't have that go. It's kevin, are you seeing the same thing? Yeah, they have the go, I cut that little walker dog loose and he's 6, 10, 7 minutes down there in Georgia is what you need with a coon and. The black dog.

Not really serious, just the BA black dog, but all of 'em are just holding back still three, 400 yards from us and we're walking six tenths to him or seven tenths to him, and I still got 45, 35, 45 minutes left to hunt and have a coon on him. So I would say there are some that go deep. My female, she'll go as deep as it takes, but she's not fast about doing it.

And with this being a [00:09:00] podcast really around the sport of the competition side of dogs, Either you need speed, you need accuracy. It's a time to vent where you treat the most Koons, who can do it the fastest and have the most Koons. That's the name of the game. And if you look through the standings from now until, if you went back, I don't know, 10, 15 years, the Walker dogs have really been at the top of the lists.

And that's not personal preference. That's looking at the numbers. What do you think? Between either one of you. What do you think separates the walkers from the rest of the breeds? And what, this is a two part question, and what drives you to continue to hunt the breed that you are so endeared to? You wanna go first, Gavin?

I think what drives the people to keep hunting their breed is because they're steadily looking for that dog. That's a freaking nature that is gonna be that way. That can. We all want to be the walker dog. I meant that's always been my [00:10:00] goal is to draw a cast full of walkers and beat 'em, and now here I am one of them guys with the walker. But I think that's what kind of keeps you always looking for something better, faster. That way you can beat the walker dog cuz that's what we're all out to do when we're not hunting one. Bill, you got anything to add on that one? Yeah, I would say, like he said, I follow up with him.

But with the black dogs also, the Walker Dogs guys, they're not afraid to get out there and venture off. Say you have a winner and Kevin has a winner. They're not afraid to like, Hey, let's try something as to where most black and tan guys you gotta be in like a clique. Like I had that Joker dog, and he was Grand Night Grand Show, grand Water, grand Field PKC champion.

I won, there's, there was times I'd set him up for you can ask Kevin, like six months. I wouldn't pull him out. The kennel. I'd be like, Hey, black and tan Davis in Ohio, I'm gonna go, I'd drive straight up there, pull 'em out the box, double cast wins. I couldn't pay nobody to breed to my dog.

Like the only [00:11:00] litter he had was cuz I crossed. I was like, Hey, I'll pay the whole litter up. I'll do whatever it takes to get this dog bred. And everybody was just like, crickets. I'm like, reach out. Don't be afraid to try something. That's how you're only going better, and Walker guys, they're not afraid to, like you see 'em crossing everything but the black and pan guys, they kinda.

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Joy will fuel your hounds and fight for your freedoms fueled by joy. Yeah. Speak, speaking, crossing things I saw later the other day it's gonna be coming up here on Facebook. It was Logan Rose. He's got that wild dream and echo dog. He, a Walker dog's done a ton of winning and they crossed it on a squirrel dog.

On a ke Yeah. Because they want to better their squirrel program as well. And like you said, do you think that would happen with a black and tan? Do you think you could take a black and tan, a blue tick, a red bone, an English. Do you think you're gonna see guys reaching out? When I see a trait in that dog, I'm gonna cross on something that's not even a hound.

Really. Yeah. It's a curve. Yeah. Do you think you'd see that in the black and tan? Probably not. So what makes it that way? Has it been like that from the beginning of time? Is it something that is breed [00:13:00] specific? Do you see it more in the black and tans? Because I feel like the black and tan group, those guys.

Really are the die hard guys. Yeah, they are. They're not gonna, they're not gonna outcross. I mean there was a one guy that did, and he posted it on one Facebook and it was like a hundred and something comments just bashing 'em like, Hey, he's trying something. Hey, if you go to U KC Black and Tans.

That is a big event. Guys come out of the woodworks. They are there for the week. They're, their yearbook is top notch. Yeah. The blocking Tan Association does it very well. Those guys are just die hard. So do you think it's gonna be that way? And if you're a black and tan man that's what you are, would you, Kevin, would you, do you feel like you got any crap for maybe stepping away from the black and tan breed?

No, not really. Cuz I got super lucky and went straight into winning. And then all the walker guys, become my friend and invite me out to dinner and everything else. I'm sure there was guys out there that I didn't know, [00:14:00] anyways, that were like, you look at him, he's done crossed the fence, but I don't care.

I like a winner. So Billy, you started out obviously with the black and tan cuz it was painted like a picture. That's how you loved it. Do you ever think I guess part of the reason that I am drawn to the Walkers I'd say is the diversity in them. You can get a litter of Walker dogs, a litter of six, and they all look different.

Yeah. The black and tans, they, to me, they all look the same. Can you guys like tell the difference if you're a black and tan guy and you see a puppy posted wherever, can you look at that dog and see what line it's out of? Because I feel like Willie Dogs, you can tell them Bushwhacker dogs. You can tell them.

You can just look at a pup rodeo and you can tell what line they're out of. Can you guys do that in the black and tans? Yeah. Some lines not. A lot of lines, like some of your dogs out in Mississippi, they're gonna come with a little thicker black coat, like I wouldn't say coarse hair, but it's just thicker.

And then there's a few other dogs that are known for throwing high tan monkey face dogs. So [00:15:00] with a few lines you can tell, but most of 'em, you, it's dissimilar. So the Winter Classic down in Batesville, Mississippi. Is a hunt that I feel is very interesting to me because it seems like the Walker dogs don't do great down there.

It usually is a different breed that wins and the black and tans have a good showing down there. What do you think the difference is between the southern hunts and the northern hunts? Do you think that there's a larger concentration down south? Do you think the dogs do better down there For a certain reason,

most dogs, like when we come up here, we love coming up here. It's. You can hit a track up here pretty quickly, down south where we're from and the site, the further you get, you gotta go, you gotta have something that will go reach out there and grab something. And I think that's helps us a little bit advantage not this week though but we go back to what we were talking about earlier with, Kevin said his dog will be a 0.6 and seven minutes going deep[00:16:00] that's not the case that I've seen at the winter classic hunt, yeah. It kind of contradicts itself. Do you think the black and tans keep a colder nose on them? Yeah, for sure. There's not many hot not that I've had many hot nose black dogs. There might be some that run roads and they say they're hot nose, but they're just, trotting through there.

I haven't had a hot nose, black and tan. I've owned a good many of 'em so far. Is that something you would like to breed more for? Would you like to breed for a hotter nose? No. I I like wanting to hunt as soon as I cut 'em loose. I've won a lot of cast, with my dog just popping coons up behind others.

So I, I don't want him to straddle a track and sit there and bog on it all night. He needs to, they need to be able to move it, and roll with it. But I also don't want one just blowing through and skipping past some coons. And I've said that for a long time now. With the way that these hunts are going and the way these dogs are being bred, the motors in 'em are just getting bigger and bigger, and I do see that across all breeds.

I think [00:17:00] there are, as a whole, they're hunting harder, right? Maybe one breed hunts harder than the next, but as a whole, if you watch 'em grow, they're all hunting harder, they're hunting harder. The dogs are hunting harder, and our hunting ground is getting smaller. We have been trying for years to breed speed into these things off the recuts, get gone quick, go find one, and now we're running outta places to put 'em.

My dog the other night, he was 1.81 miles from where I lost him on the Garmin heading right towards the highway. And to me that's too much motor. Yeah. How many Coon did he pass up between the first coon that he treed? And where I picked him up off on US 24. How many coons did he pick?

Pass up. Do you think that's something that we're gonna be seeing in the competitions people breeding for, is trying to slow that motor down? Kevin, do you see that happening? I can definitely see where they might try to put a little bit nose back into the dogs. Because like you said, how many coons that doll get by that at the house?

I [00:18:00] would say he probably passed about one, but up here he probably passed about 10. So I can definitely see where they put more nose, not a whole lot, but a little bit more nose back into the doll maybe. Yeah, I was I was down at the Tournament of Champions this year and I was really impressed with with one walker dog that we cut 'em all loose right down the field edge.

There was just a little finger, a fence row of trees. Three dogs went deep in the woods and this old boy come tree 30 yards from us. And we all looked at each other and we're like, what's going on here? And sure enough, he had a coon. That dog hunted right where literally right where we cut him.

He must have smelled that thing coming down the road outta the box. But it was interesting because you don't see that very often. You see a lot of these dogs trying to get in there, trying to get away from other dogs to go before they start hunting. I do.

I like that trait. I was impressed with that trait that he was able to jam that coon right outta the truck. Yeah. Yeah. Because in these one hour cast, I meant you got, you need to get on one quick if you're going to do anything, especially if you're striking Logan. You need really [00:19:00] two or three coons.

In a one hour cast. That's why I prefer about, six hours. So let's go back to the one hour cast thing. I brought that up in that hot or not because the one hour cast to me, I feel is where a, there's a lot of pressure in those, even in a local hunt because there's not a lot of time.

Everybody's gunning for that first strike. They're trying to get the high strike. Everybody knows they need to have at least two coon in an event like this, where they're taking the final four. You know how many dogs we hunt last night? 41 dogs. 41. Yeah. We hunted 41 dogs early. And the top four scores outta all those casts were the only ones who made it into the decent money in a one hour cast.

I feel like there's a lot of pressure in those. I feel like that's where maybe you get some more controversy and a little stiffer feelings in some of them, because guys want to hear their dog quick. They want to get struck, they wanna get treated and they wanna get recut. Do you guys see that where you guys are at?

Yeah, for sure. A hundred percent. A lot of people will strike in that minute too, [00:20:00] and down south where we're from, if a dog's striking in a minute, he's probably fixing a total minus. Really? Yeah. Not unless you're going to somebody's com buckets, or I got a little spot, me and Cabin Hunt.

It's called the man ca. I call it the man cave. And you can strike a dog there in a minute. But we've been turning Koons loose in there for what? Oh wow. Yeah. Couple years. Yeah. There's a lot of coons I feel like up here. If that's just the name of the game, you just strike him the minute. Yeah, because I haven't, I have not seen a person get minus for striking under the minute.

More than probably five times in the last three or four years. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's not the case. Oh, minus I'm in a heartbeat at the house. Yeah. So you know, like I said, those one hour cast, you've got to be quick. You gotta be on the gun. And to me, I feel like a 90 minute cast is perfect. Two hours.

Sometimes I feel like it gets to be a little drug out a little too long. The dogs can get spread out a little further than you want 'em to. It takes bigger areas to hunt the hour. Is so short. It is so competitive. Last night we were [00:21:00] sprinting to dogs. We had dogs spread out in the early round, and it was a hustle to get there.

Guys were wanting to get recut. So I, I do find that, I find, I think the one hour cast, to me it's just a little too short and I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels that way. Yeah. Especially, if you get leash locked, then you're, you're walking, I'm trying to think Wednesday night we got leash lock, three dogs on a lead, walking to Breaking tree in there.

I think he was probably like seven, 800 yards or something like that. And you gotta walk that ways. On the lead, and then you gotta get in there and find his coon and all. And then that's just that much of that hour your dog wasn't hunting when most of the time you need to be hunting. And so for our listeners who don't know what leash lock is in pkc, you can do like little, excuse me, just like what the term says leash lock, where all the dogs are locked onto the lead.

If all four dogs are declared treat at the same time, you cannot turn loose another dog. So you know, if you've got three dogs, treat. And the fourth one is still trailing. The first dog to get [00:22:00] scored can be recut. The opportunity to go score another coon and then to the second one, the end of the third.

But if that fourth dog comes treed, while all the other three are still being treated or still treed in, you can't turn loose. And that is a game changer when it comes down to certain situations. Yeah, that I can throw a monkey wrench in your plans real quick. It can, if you know if you are struck for a quarter, your lowest strike treat for a hundred first.

And then you end up getting lease locked. In one hour cast you're hurting. Yeah. You're pretty much done. You don't get a chance to go score another coon. You don't get a chance to open up. Now if you, if the dogs are pretty close, maybe you get lucky and the strike re opens. But I don't see that happening a lot.

No, that don't really happen too much. I like it when it does get opened back up by that though. Maybe. Mine's got a, he's done smelt one behind us and he's trying to get to it. I can get him struck back in. All right, let's get off that topic of the one hour cast leash, locks and all that.

Let's go back to the black and tans, and I'm gonna say the walkers. Let's go back to those two dogs [00:23:00] and let's talk more about the passionate side of it. I am passionate about the Walker Breed. I like to see it. I like to see them improve. I like to see the different crosses people are making. And Billy, I'm sure you're the same way.

You like to see the same things in the Black and tans. Yep. I got started in the Walker Dogs as a young kid. Running deer dogs down in North Carolina with my granddaddy. That's what he had. He had a pack of walkers hunted with them. The time I was a little boy going into the coon dogs, I just happenstance into getting a walker dog.

The first dog I was looking for, found him on Craigslist. It was a Walker dog. Perfect. Hilary a Coon. And I just fell in love with that dog. And that's what made me set the walker as my breed of choice. The blackened tans for you. Did you ever get to hunt with anything other than coons on them or did the Coon dog, black and tan really do it for you?

Yeah, I started out with the Coon dogs, but probably three years ago I've ventured into bear [00:24:00] hunting down there in Fargo, Georgia, which is like on the Finke Swamp. And I've seen some black dogs, but mostly like plots on Walker Blue tick mixes, but they have a few black dogs in their mix and it's pretty fun.

That's intense. So do you think that the. The black and tann breed is versatile like that. As far as the big game hunting out west, like shorty does the bear hunting where you guys are out on the east coast. Anything like that, do you think they're a versatile breed like that? Yeah a hundred percent.

I have. I had a doll named Black and I bred him to one of Gene Hicks' females that he owns with a guy named Glen Samples down in our area. And he took three of them somewhere and made, they said they made pretty nice bear dogs and lion dogs, but I never got to hunt with em. That's my next trophy hunt.

I wanna kill me in a mountain lion. Absolutely. Me too. I'm, but a black dog's gotta be a leash in there. I don't care if it's on the leash the whole time. Just let 'em be in there somewhere. Okay, so the. What I've seen is that I know a few guys who are in the Walker breed, they've [00:25:00] had a litter of dogs, and let's say they have 11 or 12 in that litter.

There's just, there's a lot of dogs there that they need to unload. They don't all go to coon hunters. Even if they're from the coon hunting line, sometimes I've seen them go to big game hunters and they've done well, they've succeeded. Do you think that would fly with the black and tanned breed?

You kinda said there's a niche in there and guys don't like to do different stuff. Do you think a guy who has a hardcore coon dog. Would like to see his pups being raised and trained on something else. I can't speak for everybody, but I don't think so. But I've had, I've had a guy come and breed his dear dog Walker female to my other dog, black, and he loved them dear dogs, but he's you should get one.

I'm like, man, I'm alright. I'm gonna stick to my ku. Nothing. I just got too many hobbies now. So Kevin, You recently switched. Like I said, I didn't realize you were a blue tick guy. I'm not gonna hold that against you, and I'm not gonna hold that against any of our listeners who are blue tickers. I understand.

It's okay. One day you'll switch to walkers too, [00:26:00] but you were a black and tan guy when I met you. And now the recently last couple years. Year and a half I guess. You are toting around a pretty nice little walker male. Tell me how you found this dog. Tell me what got you intrigued in it. Tell me what made you want to switch to the good side.

Is it good to you? Is it good to you? I come up here and I of course met you and due and all them and dual was hunting Melvin and I become friends with him on Snapchat and just kept up with Melvin and dual would go to Louisiana, pull Melvin outta the box, had a pro classic win it, leave there, drive to Oklahoma, pull Melvin out, win it, leave there, go to Texas, win it.

And I was like, Man, if I had to have me a dog, I want something that I can put in the truck and drive to North Indiana and pull him straight outta the box and win. And so I just kept up with him and they bred him, I think to Piper first. And I had talked to Johnny Watkins about a pup and [00:27:00] I don't know, I was like, oh man, my dad finds out I'm getting a walker.

I might be outta the, I might be outta the wheel here. I told Johnny I wanted a pup and then I backed out and just went, some time went by and they bred to the fire dog, talked to Johnny again, and I was like, do you have a male? He said, no, I have one female. And I said I really don't want no female.

I was looking for a male and just really forgot about it. And I was in Missouri duck hunting and Johnny, I can't remember if he called or text me. I think he called me And I literally answered it, put him on speakerphone and started calling some, we had some mallards working, started calling them and really was halfway paying attention to him.

But I heard him say that he had, a male Melvin and fire pup that I want it. And I just pretty much said, yeah, I'll take it. Send me a text how much I owe you and I'll send you the money. And that was forgot about it. It was a spur of the moment thing that happened. And so he sent me, told me how much I owed him and all I paid him.

And then, I had a [00:28:00] dog call her from right there, close to me that was close to Johnny. And I texted him, I said, Hey, do you think she could pick him up for you? Still hadn't told my dad, there was a walker coming to me. And he said, yeah, she, he's eating good and all that. I think he was six weeks old, seven weeks old.

And so she picked him up. She let's see, I think she had to had a flat tire or something in Louisiana. And like I said, I can't, he was six or seven weeks old. And she called me and she was like Kevin, this dog is standing on the side of this building, barking. I don't know what's wrong with him.

So I was like I don't know either, so I was like, do you see, I'm in my mind, of course I'm thinking, Hey, I hope he's got a raccoon up there. But I was like, you, do you see anything like in the building? She's I took him back, by the van, and he come right back over here and started barking again.

And there's a house cat. And I said, what you think he's treeing that house cat? She's I think so. I was, oh, put that joker back in the van. Don't let him out till you get him here. And so I was pretty excited when [00:29:00] she called and, told me that cuz I was like, man, this little doll, he's already looking to get treed.

I'm about to have something. And I got him. And of course my dad I, he was giving me a hard time, he wasn't mad. He actually he likes old Jameson now. But he's, I can't believe you got a walker, blah, blah, blah. And I had actually Billy and them put on a legacy hunt and I hunted Brett, Lynn's, Lena dog there, and everybody was giving me a hard time with her, but I got her in the second night at Legacy Hunt.

So he had already been giving me trouble about that. And then we joked around, told him I was gonna get a tattoo of a walker dog and have Walker for life put under bed. Have you done that? Is that task completed? No. I keep trying to talk him into it. Join my rot rollers. It looks like Billy has held up his end of the deal.

Billy's got 'em now. Billy's got 'em. I'll tell you what, he's got a raccoon. He's, I see acorns right now too. I didn't even, I ain't even notice the acorns on the arm. So let's talk through this sleeve that you got going [00:30:00] on here. You got. A Looks like a tree going up your whole arm. Yeah. You got a big old raccoon at the top and two rock wallers.

Yeah. You got rock wall looking things at the bottom. Look like baby birds. They got their mouse open like wanting to be fed like that. Maybe that coon's gonna drop an acorn or something down in there. They got lucky on this one. It's pretty impressive. It is a full sleeve from wrist to shoulder. Billy is immersed in the blackened tans.

I don't think you we might be able to shade some white in there one day if we want to get you into the walker side of things, but yeah, there's two Black and tans here. Trina Coon on the side of Billy's arm. It is impressive. It is a full sleeve and I'm gonna say that it's cool, but not as cool as the walker dog I have on my arm.

So we talked about, being immersed in it. Billy's got his rottweiler looking things. I've got the oversized beagles, the Holsteins, whatever you want to call 'em. We've both got our tattoos here of the dog that we are partial to. And Kevin, he's playing the fence. He's got nothing going on here.

I might have a [00:31:00] red ball next week, who knows. Yeah. My our buddy in South Carolina, Mack, I'm McClanahan. He's a diehard black and tan man. He always gives me, trouble for that one. He's oh, that high tan dog. He like, he likes some, darker than that. Yeah. And then I got my wife and my initial car like it's carved in the tree.

Oh it is? Yeah. Oh, so that is looks like a heart in there and then HB right inside the tree. Yeah. That is awesome. Now he is got, so he is got black and tans on one arm and he's got a Chevy emblem on the other arm. Yeah. What happens whenever you hop in cabin's Toyota? I, hold on. If you ride with Kevin, you're gonna Hold on.

He's not buying mirrors daily for a reason. We don't do a lot of walking. Oh God. No, it's good. So let's go back to Jameson. Kevin, you got him at six weeks old. He was treeing house cats on the side of a building. What has he done to get where he is now? How old is he? Just under two? Yeah, I think he's [00:32:00] 17 or either 18 months old.

And you've done quite a bit of winning with him already for the limited amount of hunts that you've put him in. Yeah he's gotten lucky. So walk us through this what was the process of him, what did you see in him that made you keep pushing? Just natural man. Just, I hate, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse cuz you know, everybody's, oh, I got this most natural dog, blah, blah, blah.

But it, Billy can tell you, I mean we were, we cut him loose one night. He was four and a half months old just to walk with us. We were looking at fish on the beds in a creek, and this joker loads up about a hundred and 150 yards behind us at four and a half months old and comes treed with a raccoon.

So it's just all downhill from there. It's just, ugh, as natural. I wish every puppy I could have would be, as natural as he is. I have never got that lucky. I have tried my hands at several puppies and I haven't found a natural one yet. You might need to buy you a black and tan. Yeah, come on over.

I don't know. I, if I brought a black and tan home without it, or before I brought a [00:33:00] red bone home. I don't think Nicki would be very happy with me. I think she likes old lefty. Pretty good. She does like lefty. Okay, so let's talk about Lefty for a minute. Let's talk about this dog.

So Lefty come from Chad McCoy his Black River Kennel line of dogs. Lefty to me, what I've seen is a walker dog painted black that sucker moves. He's got a decent mouth on it. Pretty good mouth, really pretty good mouth. He likes to have his coons, but he's got that motor that you were just talking about.

Yeah. Is lefty a phenomenon in the black and tan breed? Yeah. You don't really, like I said, you don't see many. With the motor and everybody's oh, I got the motor. I got the motor. But we're at pkc black and tan days. How many black dos are here? There's not very many. Yeah I got one and she won't get off this bed, so I need some motor somewhere.

Maybe stop by Napa Another thing too is, if you have a dog up here that has a motor that can hit these field edges [00:34:00] and just run them when you put 'em in the woods down there with us, I like. I'd still want one to go, just like if he was on these field edges up here. And I.

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Out. They got a lot of stuff to offer over Cajun lights. So lefty, he's done a lot of his winning like that, just hitting an edge. Gone. Ambushing. A coon. He's the black dog that you could pull out anywhere and I think he's proved it from anywhere in the country cuz he was raised here in Northern Indiana.[00:36:00]

Bought down there by Mr. Iran in Florida. Went down to Florida and has been hunting really close to you guys, right? Yeah, he just beat me last Saturday night. So he, from northern Indiana down to Florida, up to Georgia and he is winning everywhere in between. Yeah, they had a week long memorial hunt down there with Brett Denny and I'm pretty sure, I think he won every single night down there.

The best I can remember, I think he won every cast. So that, that's pretty impressive to me. Yeah, that's nice. If you are a black and tanned man and you've got a female coming in, you see this dog that is putting on clinics everywhere he goes, he is a known winner. He's got what you're looking for is pride too much to go breed to him because he is not outta your stuff.

No, I actually, me and Kevin talked on the way here and I was like, dude, if I might see what it's about, crossing mind on him because. She's a very quick dog and she's, she gets open quick for like black and tans [00:37:00] normally lower end strike dogs. I can carry a hundred or mostly a hunter, but I'll carry 75 every now and then with her.

And I'm like, she moves good. She has her coons, so if she comes in, I'm probably gonna stick her to a lefty butt. It's so hard to get rid of pups. Like I hate getting rid of puppies. I only bred one litter out of her and my joker dog, and it's I don't know if I wanna go through that trouble.

Do you think the black and tan breed will do the same though? Do you think they will look at him for their next stud option? Or do you think that it's, like you said, it's such a niche and a clique that, ah, he's not outta our stuff. We're gonna keep trying to do what we've been doing for years? I think they'll keep trying.

Yeah. I don't think, unless, unless they're in nothing against anybody. But unless they're in that little clique with probably, the Black River stuff, they probably won't buy nothing. I don't, and to me it's, that's just hard for me to fathom because like I said I'm a walker guy and in heck they're crossing A to B and C to D and E to F.

Yeah. It's anything and everything. And it seems [00:38:00] like if you throwing, there's that old adage, if you throw enough on the wall, something's gonna stick. Exactly. I just bred my sassy female to the smoking Dan dog. All because everybody told me not to, just to see what would happen because everybody I talked to, they didn't, it wasn't in there.

They were wanting to line, breed, and breed to their stuff, and, but he had one pup on the ground when I bred, and I think it was a male pup, like six or seven, eight weeks old, something like that. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna breed it to him. Cuz Dan's, he's done his fair share of winning. He has, before left, he was really on the map.

Dan was what I would consider probably your leading black and tan. Yeah. Yeah, he was. He was getting his name and pitcher tooken Hounds Man. XP Podcast Network is sponsored by OnX. The most comprehensive mapping system in the world is available by going to and downloading their app. Several subscription offers there.

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Know where you stand with OnX. [00:40:00] Do you think that it takes a certain person to push? What I, and I hope people don't take this the wrong way, but to push an off-colored dog in the big hunts and be that dynamic duo. Yeah. I don't know. You'll get stones thrown at you pretty much for having a black dog on the cast.

Like it's always, you'll hear, oh, a black dog. Like as soon as I pull one out the box, it's yeah, I'm here to waste some money. Yeah. And so the, what I'm, I guess what I'm asking on that one is I feel like. A walker dog. It, I don't want to, I don't want to come off the wrong way here, but I feel like when they are pulled out a walker, every Walker dog, everybody are like, okay, they have a decent shot at winning.

It doesn't matter who's behind the dog, it doesn't matter. The handler calling the shot. Striking and treeing the dog. That doesn't matter. Yeah. But I feel like with the black dog, like if I were to pull a black dog outta the box, nobody would look at it as, all right, whatever.

What's Bryce doing? If dual Murphy or Michael Ward or Dustin [00:41:00] Weed pull a black dog outta the box, it's oh yeah, what is this? If turning heads, yeah. Do you think that does play a different, do you think people in the black and tan breed will look at it different? Do you think they will accept it more?

If there's a bigger name handler pushing the dog? I don't know, because Dan's still not getting that, that, recognization, he deserves, to be honest. He's probably, he bred sassy, and then probably what I think Brett said two more females. Yeah, Brett's got two at his house and I think one of them just had, he called me yesterday and said three or four puppies.

So she, that'll be, three different litters that Dan has on the ground, but they're all young black and tan, this won, 50,000 plus. They should be beating down his door. Really? Hey, why not try it? Because I was looking at the form on the way up here and I was like I joked with Kevin.

I was like, man, to be in the PKC Hall of Fame for Black and Tans. It's got, I don't quote me on this now, but I think it had to be like a gold champion and the pup earnings had to be so high. I was like, Kevin, they're fixing it to lower that. Cuz nobody's out there really [00:42:00] pushing any black dogs, hardly on top of that, do you think there's a difference in guys that run the Black dogs in the PKC registry more than the U KC and the guys that run it in U KC more than pkc? Yeah, I think there's a difference in people for sure. You'll see a good bit in pkc, but like for instance, Pkc black and tan days.

I think me, Jeff Nelson's up here. Greg's up here and I seen Rex Robertson last night. Yep. He's here. I saw him when I was walking into the hotel, so that's not, wait, don't forget me now. I got a black dog. Not here with us. I try to tell you to bring her. He's in the box, son. Oh. Oh yeah, Dan. I forgot about Dan.

My bad. See Kevin's playing both cards, so I'm like a black dog early round, a walker. Her dog late round. But then you got U Ukc black in 10 days and it's Hey guys, come on over here. Don't be afraid to. Come try PKC Black and 10 days [00:43:00] out. That's the point I was getting at is U KC Black and 10 days.

You've got guys in there, campers that are there all week long. It is an event. Yeah. There, there are black, there are dogs. There's more black dogs there than I would know what to do with U or pkc Black. And 10 days were here, we've got what, maybe 10? Yeah, maybe. Maybe 10 for the whole country in Pkc.

Maybe 10 dogs are here. Walker days. At both events, I feel like draws a pretty good crowd. Yeah. Why do different breeds not travel, with one registry as much as the other? Yeah. I don't know. I hate for people to be like, oh, I don't have time or money, because, I'm not the richest man out there.

I work every day and then I just had a, my first child, so it's like Kevin sees me when we wake up. I'm FaceTiming. I'm like, but hey, I'm out here trying because you want to push, you want to push that breed. Yeah. You want to get your picture taken. We were talking last night, right before the late round and you were, and don't take this the wrong way, Billy.

You were like, God, I'm so frustrated. I just [00:44:00] wanna win. Like I just wanna win. Yeah. That's when I come here, I come here to meet, I'm glad I met you and everybody else is cool to talk to and meet with, but I come to win too, so it's ugh, come on. And I know what she can do.

And she's just making me eat my words this week. Do you ever feel like you're beating your head against the wall? Yeah. All the time. And you continue to do it? Yeah. I'm insane. All right. Blocking 10 days this week. Let's run through it. You guys got here on Wednesday. What have your been, what's been your experiences so far?

Like you've had good hunting, good casts, good guides. We've drew each other twice. So twice. I thought you just drew each other on Wednesday. Early round. We got here Wednesday. And we drew each other early Last night? No, late last night. Yeah, late last night. Oh, I didn't realize that. Yeah. Yeah. I was so busy doing what I was doing.

I didn't even realize you guys drew each other. Yeah. But no, we've been in good hunting. We early round Wednesday night we drew each other and I think we scored on five, either six coons in an hour. Six. So six coons. That's pretty good. So you mean to tell me you guys drew each other both late around last [00:45:00] night and neither one of you won?

Yeah. We suck guys. We can't, Hey, we can't even beat up on somebody else. That's what I'm trying to say. Come on now. This is the buddy system. That's what these compounds are according to a lot of people. It's just the buddy system. Yeah. I told Kevin to distract him. I'll run and grab everybody's dog and put 'em in a doll box.

That way he can win. Man I hate that. That is the stigma that a lot of these compounds get from guys who don't do it. And I just want 'em to know these two guys drive 14 hours together. They come up here, they draw each other and they didn't win. They didn't screw anybody. They didn't buddy system anybody.

The best dog on that cast one, I'm assuming. Yeah. There wasn't no shady stuff. It was just good hunting. Yeah, it was all but the hills. If I hear one more thing about hills from you, let me tell you. I told Johnny Watkins today. I text him and told him that Jameson had got, I got him struck and treated for a hundred and I knew something was wrong cuz it was only 430 yards.

But there was. Four hills in between us, but he was over there and what, I've [00:46:00] never seen a hole with a rocking side of a bank or a hill, whatever you wanna call it. So I told Johnny he was in a cave. Johnny, he text me back, laugh out loud a cave question mark. And I don't know, what do you call that? That's a hole in the hill.

Yeah. Be, just be it holding the side of the ditch bank. I don't know. It went back there, man. There was all little hard Yeah I'm gonna give a cave. Me too. That sounds cool. Yeah. It's a better story. When I think of cave, I'm thinking something I can put my Splunk in gear on and go down in there and, have my wheat light.

I wish you would've last night, you might could have found lacoon. So we've got two more nights. We've got tonight, Friday night, tomorrow, Saturday night, tonight is the all black hunt. Are you both hunting in that one? Yes, sir. So what is the, and fill me in on this one cause I really don't know.

What is the top prize here for the all Black Hunt? Is this like your pkc breed champion? Yes, sir. Okay. And how many dogs are you guys expecting to have on that? I asked Jeff last night and he [00:47:00] said probably eight to 10. All right. Disappointing, if you black and 10 guys are listening, you've got to come out and support your breed.

Yeah, it's very important. It's like that for Blue tick guys. If you want to support the blue tick breed, go to your blue tick breed hunts, English guys, red bones. Everybody needs to support their breed. And I enjoy seeing somebody with a passion about a breed like I have. It's nice in all breeds to see people who are like, you know what?

I'm a diehard blue tech guy. I'm gonna ride this train until the wheels fall off. Just like you, Billy. I'm a black and tan guy. I'm gonna ride this train until the wheels fall off. Yeah. What's the worst happens? I already got a black dog but then we got guys like Calvin who just, they just wanna win right now.

Yeah. All right guys. I hope you know that, this is all just fun and games. We're just having a good time doing all this. We do not think that one breed is better than the other, even though we all know walkers are better walkers for life. No this has just been a fun conversation. Like I said, we talked in the last podcast that a lot of it is killing time at these hunts.

We go to these hunts and [00:48:00] cooped up in a hotel room, we've got time to kill until it gets dark and we're gonna go out there and hunt until five, six in the morning. So this is just fun. It's a good way to interact with people. Learn a little bit about them. Learn a bit about the breeds that they love to follow and about, what makes them tick and what they think they're gonna do in the future.

I hope you guys will think about, looking elsewhere outside of your own lines. If you're in, if you find yourself in that cycle where you doing the same thing over and over for years and years, look elsewhere, support those dogs in your breed who are doing well to better the breed.

Whatever breed that may be. But like I said, Billy Calvin, I appreciate you guys sitting down, hanging out with me today. It's been a good time. We're gonna go out here and grab a little dinner and then I guess we're gonna go to this black tan meeting. Is that the plan? Hell yeah. We going, we gonna express our feelings.

Yeah, I'm gonna let 'em know. Hey, give me a jacket of hat. Gimme something sticker. Guys, I hope you've enjoyed this podcast as much as I had. It has been a great time. Make sure you check us out on the Homan. P website where we can find [00:49:00] all of our merch, all of our gear. Be sure to look at the new Hounds Man XP Competition Extreme dog box we just released.

You can get that in the powder coat Black. You can get it in the naked form, your plain diamond plate aluminum. It is a sexy box. Make sure you get on there, get yourself a hat, get a Tumblr. Anything you can do to support the Hounds and xp. Support the people who are supporting you in what we do.

Guys, once again, thank you so much for sitting down with me today. It's been a blast and I hope I don't draw either one of you, but if I do, you wanna draw me. I hope you win. All right, guys, that's enough here from us. Thank you for listening to the Deep and Lonely Podcast. We'll catch you next time.

Thank you.