Show Notes
The mountain lion and Utah Houndsmen are in the fight of their lives. Utah HB469 has passed both houses of legislature and is on the governor’s desk. It is up to us take action now.
Cory Huntsman, the President of the Utah Houndsman Association joins Houndsman XP host, Chris Powell, to break the whole issue down; what’s going on, what the behind the scenes looks like, what needs to be done and how to do it.
Click on this link to make a stand for mountain lions and mountain lion management and support your fellow Houndsmen.
Show Transcript
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This is a special edition of the Homan XP podcast because we've got an a legislative emergency in Utah. I've got Corey Huntsman on the [00:03:00] podcast to talk to you about what's going on out there, give you a full breakdown and give you the lowdown. This thing's getting a lot of coverage, which it should. We talked about it on Monday with Ivan Carter, which was a precursor for today's conversation with Corey, and he's gonna give you a lot of information on how you can get involved.
And this is a nationwide deal, folks, Utah legislators have passed this bill, house Bill 4 69. It is sitting on the governor's desk right now. There's a couple options the government governor has at this point. He can either go ahead and sign it, he can veto it, or he can just let it sit, and next week it will go into effect.
It'll go ahead and automatically go into law. This should be an alarm for everyone across the country about the mismanagement of our wildlife [00:04:00] and how politicians are trying to manage our wildlife and shutting the professionals out. You should be concerned, this is not the North American model for wildlife conservation.
This is not where we have drawn our expertise and built the most successful wildlife populations in the world. We have a chance here. It's not over yet. But time is running out and Utah Hounds men and Mount Lyons need your help in the state of Utah. You can check out our social media pages. We just dropped a bunch of information there about Vetoing House Bill 4 69 with a link.
It's easy. Folks. All you gotta do is click on the link in our post on Hounds XP podcast on Facebook, find it on Instagram, and just work your magic. Hit the link. Put your name in, put your email [00:05:00] address in. Put veto house bill 4 69 in the comment box. This is not good for wildlife. This is not good for Mount Lions.
This is not good for Utah. That's all I did. Took me less than three minutes to do it. It doesn't matter that you're not from Utah. You're a concerned citizen of the United States of America. And it's time to exercise your rights and your freedoms to have a voice in the political process. It also gives us the opportunity to make a stand and tell politicians that they need to keep their myths off our wildlife.
Let the professionals do their job. The only thing that their job should be is to provide the funding, approve the funding, and send it over so that the experts and the professionals can manage our wildlife. Folks, this is good [00:06:00] podcast. Lot of information in it. I hope you've listened to all the podcasts were that were released this week in reference to.
I know that w dropped one. I hope you listened to it. Ivan Carter talked about it on Monday on this podcast, on the Hounds Man XP podcast. Go back and take a listen to that. He covers that, but he covers so many other things too. A lot of good information there. Ivan Carter is a worldwide no known, well-known conservationist.
He's seen a lot of stuff and he is got a good lot of good insight for us, and he is very concerned about this bill as he stated Monday, and you should be too. I'm not gonna drag this out real long, but I did need to put a little monologue up front to make sure that you're tuning into this and listening these things fat follow a pattern.
They get trendy. We don't need politicians from other states. Looking at this and thinking that's a good idea. [00:07:00] Let's line our pockets with money from other industries that are being impacted by the mountain lion. And my biggest fear, and this may be total conspiracy, but think about this for a second.
You take the number one apex predator off of the landscape in Utah, and now you've got the same ag community that wants to eliminate the lion complaining about deer damage and competing for grass and everything else. And the stage is ripe for Center for Biological Diversity. Or one of these other groups to swoop in and say, have we got a deal for you?
Let's introduce wolves. I'm telling you folks, you gotta be on point here. I am not gonna drag this out. Here's Corey Huntsman. Thanks for listening to the Huntsman [00:08:00] XP podcast. Take action today.
Morning, Chris. Morning Corey. How you doing ma'am? Doing good. How about you? I'm doing real good. How'd the banquet go? And it went awesome. Probably the biggest banquet, Nu probably, it was the biggest bant we've ever had. It was, yeah, we had a better turnout than we've ever had, and now by far we've raised more money this year than we ever have.
So it was great to see all the support come in, especially this time of need. Oh, there's definitely a time of need. And that's what we're talking to you about today is this is a Hounds man alert. I think there's a lot of stuff that we can talk about today and a lot of it's been covered.
We had Ivan Carter on Monday. and I think didn't w drop a podcast this week about the issue they did. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't wanna be redundant and cover everything, but I think all the press we can get is [00:09:00] good press for this issue. And I'm gonna let you steer us through this whole thing and let us know what's going on in Utah and that way, since I haven't had a chance to listen to W's podcast.
So I don't know what you guys covered and what you didn't, or if there's something else you need to throw in there. But, so we got Corey Huntsman on the podcast, and Corey, you're the president, the Utah Homan Association, right? Yep, that's right. How could you not be the president with the last name, like Huntsman , I guess you're it's a curse, I've never, the only way it could be more fitting if it was Hounds Man, but I don't know anybody with that last name. Yeah, I don't either. . Yeah. Yeah. Just give us some backstory real quick. Whereabouts you at in Utah? What's your what's your li thir three minute life story, Corey?
I'm I live in early Utah. It's just west, northwest part of the state. Lion hunted I'd Lion and Bear hunt for about 20 years with [00:10:00] Hounds. Breeden raised my own kind of line of dogs. Been president of the Hound Association the last three years. I haven't got tired of you yet.
Huh? I'm hoping they'll piss you . No doubt, man. It's a lot of work, but I think if everybody can dedicate a few years to, to pitching in and helping with an association, everybody paid back and. and take their turn. That's what'll keep these associations going. And it is definitely my turn.
I hunted a long time and just kept to myself and it was certainly my turn to step up and help out. Yeah. Do you guys have, were you mentored into that program? That's why I'm I'm curious about this. A lot of time these organizations that I've seen in the past kind of become these, power vacuums where people wanna stay in charge and so they don't really mentor the next generation coming up.
So you've been a president for three years. Did you have a mentor in [00:11:00] this thing or, and paved the way for you here? No, unfortunately no, honestly. And it's three to the fire. Yeah. And it was a rough start for all of us. I think I made some mistakes going in early on and the, our board clashed and.
And then we realized we're all after the same goal, just different approaches to get there. And we got aligned a little bit better after a couple years and are stronger than ever for it. I wish that we had a mentored to steer us into it. And unfortunately we did it the hard way.
I think the club's been going for several years, but hey, at least you did. At least you didn't get elected because you were the guy that wasn't at the meeting, right? Yeah. That I, six kids, I've seen that before. Let's, who's not here? Let's nominate them, vote 'em in, and then you get a phone call, says, congratulations.
Yeah, everyone was on the call that day when we picked, unfortunately, so we couldn't throw anybody into it, but[00:12:00]
Oh man. You guys, that's good though. You guys certainly be getting a lot of press out there with, everything that's going on in Utah right now. And like I said before, all the press we can get on this thing is good press for Hounds, man, if nothing else to let people know what's happening and to make sure that people are on point and not allowing this same thing to happen in their state.
Whether it's eliminating your lion season altogether or, just blowing the lid off it like Utah's trying to do. So break down the issue real quick for us, Corey. I'll tell you what, you probably can't do it real quick. I'm sorry. You break down the issue. What are you guys facing?
So we're facing a legislative bill that, that was slipped in at the last hour of the session on a completely unrelated bill. We didn't see it coming. There was a little bit of talk here and there the week of that somebody might slip it [00:13:00] in. But honestly the one rumor I heard I was not that afraid because the rumor I heard was the senator was going to try to slip it in the last hour that would totally take the protection off the lions.
And the reason I wasn't that afraid of that was because the woo growers would not get paid on a suspected lion kill if that were to happen. . And so I thought, man, that this will get shot down. But the way they did it requiring a small games license, they still get paid. And it, I mean about the only thing that's not regulated on 'em would be hunting at night.
That's about the only difference now. I'm hearing that their wildlife board might have some controls over this depending on if it's, and the legislators can come back and say, no, that's not what, how we meant for the bill to be interpreted. . So we're going to try to, if it does, if the governor does sign, we're gonna try to [00:14:00] get some controls in place.
But the way it's written it, it's open to kill females, kittens, snares, traps, unlimited bag limits, year round quotas. And our media's kind of portraying it goofy. It seem to like they're, what is that saying about 'em? Their headlines are extending the seasons from seven to 12 months, and that's hardly the issue.
Lines are hard to hunt in the summer. , you close year round seasons aren't really. That scary. 60 per, 67% of our state is already in a year round season with up to two lions. The legislators got us on a bill a couple years ago. That forces the division to open up a unit to unlimited tags if the deer herd's under objective.
And it's supposed to be, if lions are a limiting factor, but it's, they get so much pressure from these guys, from these legislators that they put, they went way overboard on it, basically. Yeah. Which, so [00:15:00] we're already hard enough on the lions. I'm definitely for finding a predator prey balance where we're not gonna suppress a deer or hurt or keep it from growing.
But there is that balance where you can have both and that's what the Utah Handsman Association stands for. And in fact, we're part of the. A study with one of our university, actually both universities here that have a wildlife program are involved with in bigger and bear studies. And that's what we're trying to do.
And we're actually getting pretty close at finding that predator pre balance where we can actually put some science behind these quotas and unfortunately this bill kills all of this research. The, it's odd to me and maybe something that is a good message for people out there that aren't hounds men or maybe even leaning towards, thinking that hounds men are just looking up for opportunities to hunt and kill lions.
You come back to the east here and, you take the raccoon seasons and coon hunters are [00:16:00] looking for more opportunity and availability. Our resource with the raccoon is definitely not the same. It's not as fragile. as trying to manage for a mountain lion season. But back east we're trying to get seasons opened up and more liberal.
And in the west we've got hounds men stepping up and saying, no, don't, we don't need to be killing any more lions. And I think that's a powerful message that speaks well for us as homan because, we just, we don't want to kill more lines. We love we want to take care of 'em. We are the managers and we're the most concerned.
I think that's a great, that's a great point. It is. I agree with you. And that's, it is a misconception that when you wanna kill 'em all in blood thirsty hunters. But just like any conservation group, they care about the animal more than, Hey, I don't know if we care about 'em more, but we do more to protect them than any other [00:17:00] group.
That's for sure. Yeah, it's Hounds men coming out that are like, no, we need to take care of this resource. And I always go back and tell people, there isn't anybody that cares more about wildlife than hunters do. I don't care what sticker you've got on the back of your Subaru you don't care more about wildlife than what hunters do.
There's no way. This is our whole life. We do this every day. And how is any conservation funded? I mean that we wouldn't have animals, we wouldn't have habitat if it wasn't for hunters. Those hikers and mountain bikers and rock climbers that are utilizing the land aren't putting in a thing towards preserving wildlife.
I don't know, but Yeah. But I don't know that I want 'em to either, because when you start charging them permits and backpack taxes that was being kicked around probably four or five years ago. Haven't heard that term for a while, but everybody was talking about backpack taxes and when you give those people [00:18:00] a seat at the table, holy smoke, that, that worries me.
That worries me. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah, a hundred percent. We, Utah tried to pass the thing, and maybe it's passed. I'm haven't really followed up on it, but for our people using our wildlife management areas, owned by the fish and game, they tried to pass a deal where they had to have a hunting license to use it.
He'd rather they hunt it or not, and they really pushed back hard and Yeah. To your point, I agree with you. I'm glad that they did push back on that. Yeah. And they don't have a seat at the table. I'm good. I'm good. If they require 'em to have a hunting license, you know that, that. Has, I guess they could still get a voice that way, but when you set up, if your state legislators would come out and say, Hey, we're gonna do a backpack tax, a land use tax, holy smoke, a land use permit, and I don't know, you can't.
Last time I was on in the Hoosier National walking down the one of the mountain Nebo trails, I was [00:19:00] walking in there to squirrel hunt and I had to, it was like walking down the interstate, dodging mountain bikes and stuff, and I was like, holy cow. What's happened here? Oh yeah.
It's where we collar these lions, it's on an urban interface area, and in the mornings you get up early and can beat 'em all, but coming back down, it's a steady flow of traffic. Yeah, for sure. So let's ask, I want, where are you guys at? Give us an update. Where are you at on this whole thing?
What's the process look like? It's been passed by the House and Senate. Where's this bill at it, because it's still a bill, it's not a law yet. Correct. Has a Monday, it hit his desk, hit governor's desk. He has till the 23rd to veto it, sign it, or just not do anything. And then it'll go to law May 3rd.
There's rumors of an emergency wildlife board meeting that would pop up to, to set controls some type [00:20:00] of controls in this for May 3rd. But there's also pushback on that. I'm hearing the only way they can push a, an emergency meeting through would be if. The species, there's a threat to the species.
And that's, I think, why there's pushback, because if they admit that there's a threat to the species, then there'd be a definitely reason to avoid the bill. Yeah. Beatle the bill, , it, it's a tricky situation that's drawn a ton of attention from the antis, which, on one hand, like good, let the legislators see what they've created, and then the other hand, oh, you don't want 'em storming, the capitol and try to get a ballot initiative going or something.
But luckily, Utah several years back, they passed a law that Proposition five, they passed a bill Proposition five that requires a two-thirds majority. Vote to for any wildlife change. . Even if they did comment, we're still protected in Utah [00:21:00] somewhat. But you have to worry about things like the forest service.
These, this kind of push from the antis could get the forest service to ban trapping and we don't wanna hurt the trappers. I trap my kids trap. It's but with them allowing this bill, allowing, trapping a mount lion, that, that's a bad look for trappers. It really is a cats, big cats pull on people's heart strings so bad the first time one of these hikers walks up and finds a kitten in a trap.
It all hell's gonna break loose. Oh man. Yeah, for sure. I think the reason that, that Texas has held onto their trapping and their mountain lions for so long is because there's so much private property in Texas. I think, I think they're only like 3%. Public property it's really low.
And so the public doesn't have access to those ranches and things like that in that back country area. Whereas in Utah, where do you guys, where do you guys rank? You guys are way up there on public land and it's open to anybody. It [00:22:00] is. And it, and Kyle especially since Covid, it's getting used
I don't know what happened through Covid, but people are recreating outside a lot more 10 times more than I've ever seen you. You can hardly get away from 'em anywhere you go. So they're gonna stumble upon these cats in traps. Even to speak to Texas, we've had some deer hunters reach out and say, oh, you guys are doing this backwards.
We're trying to get lions on a big game list because we're. We're worried we're not gonna be able to kill 'em at all. If we don't uhhuh , we won't be able to manage 'em all. So they're getting so much negative attention, even with all that private property. And yeah. Utah's going backwards here, but it's just, it's frustrating.
Mike in your Ivan show, he came out to caller with us and, world renowned conservationists and been in all kinds of studies and sees the important worldwide of research and yeah, putting sportsman dollars to. To work to learn more about finding this predator prey balance in, in the right populations.
And we're going back to the [00:23:00] storm age. We have data showing where we need to put pressure on lines and where we, where it's not helping. And these guys are these two legislators that slip this bill. Again, they're not biologists, they didn't seek out our division wildlife or our universities doing these studies.
They just cater to their buddies interest with their big ranches that are getting $15,000 per deer tag and they think one lion's too many because it's potentially costing them money. And what is this gonna do to that study base and the, the data that can be collected? What's gonna happen to, to, Mount line management in Utah?
If this thing goes through? There won't be any, there's the funding's through the big game department. . So this classifies the line as a small game animal, so it automatically takes the funding away from it. But besides that, you can't learn anything about a lion having it collared. Three weeks.
We had a law passed after we got this lion study going to make it illegal to kill lions for three or four years. Collared lines, I'm sorry, collared [00:24:00] lines. Yeah. And it, and , we're only talking about 30 to 50 lions statewide that this protects. It's not end all for deer by doing it.
But finally we had one lion, we call it in Provo, Utah, which is north central, right along our I 15 corridor. It went all the way up mid Wyoming, back down to our eastern side of the state and almost made it to Kansas. No kidding. Yeah. It made it just west of Denver. Wow. And it got killed.
Another lion kill a two and a half year old female. It's a weird deal, but, if she was collared for two months, we would've never seen her. Leave Provo, the original area she was collared in. So what you're saying is, so what you're saying is if we take the restrictions off the lion in Utah, then all of a sudden there's no sense in going out and catching lines and put collars on 'em if they're going to, if they're just open season, they can be killed and in the next day Exactly.
In the study, get on it for sure. [00:25:00] There's too much money and time involved to even, just a waste of time. Okay, so what other kinds of information why should a deer and elk hunter or a big horn sheep hunter or whatever out there, other hunting groups, why should they care about this bill that's in Utah right now?
This affects every sportsman, every tax paying citizen. Really? When legislators can start, Passing wildlife bills with no biology behind them. That should scare everybody. And we see it different in every state. We're fighting to for less killing or I guess I'm having a hard time articulating it, but we're fighting our legislators.
Not to take the sport away, but to keep animals on the landscape so we can keep hunting 'em where it seems like most states are fighting to keep their sport legal to the ability to run dogs or hunt, right? Yeah. Legal. And we're , these guys don't want to take it from us. We're good that way.
But the way I look at it, [00:26:00] Corey I see you guys fighting for science-based wildlife management, actual wildlife management, not, the perceived management. You're not looking at, you were talking about. increased killing and stuff like that. And you guys are not trying to stand up and say, Hey, don't kill our lions.
You're saying, Hey, if we're gonna kill lions, let's do it the smart way and not just open it up and have a free for all and war on the mountain lion. That's exactly it. How do you, when the antis do come to shut you down to question, why are we killing lions? We'll have an old science or data.
We'll, just because lions are bad. Lions eat deer, so we're killing 'em all right. Before, a science-based data you can explain why we're killing lions and show that we're, there is a balance there, there is a need for 'em, but there is a need to manage 'em as well. And without that, when legislators start managing your wildlife you're, there is no science behind it.
And I think [00:27:00] every state seeing it at, you hear about another wildlife bill. Being passed monthly, it seems yeah. Across the nation in it. I just don't think , they have a place in wildlife. We have an awesome system in Utah. Process, public process. We on any big change or management plan, we have a committee with formed with e every stakeholder from land, federal land agencies, private landowners woo growers, cattlemen, hunters, sportsmen, hounds, men a and we get invited to these committees and there's usually four or five meetings in across the state for four hours a piece.
And then the con, the middle ground that we come up with in these committees, they run through a rack process with a regional advisory committee. And we have five different regions in the state. And Every region in the state allows public input. And our state game agency explains why they're prop proposing, what they're prop proposing.
So [00:28:00] the public's really involved. And then the final step is our wildlife board. Some people call it a commission, but our wildlife board's made up of seven guides. And there's one more last chance for public input and education of why this recommendations are being made. And then the wildlife takes all the information and they vote on it.
And like you said, it's not a perfect system, but it's pretty dang good. You're, if you want to be involved, they'll involve you with it. But the way this is going about it completely eliminates any of this public input, public education. And you're at the mercy of in old words, like Ivan said in your last bullet podcast, we're out politics in this.
And if one, one message can be brought from this is sportsman groups, whether you're hounds or deer hunters, whatever your group is, man, you gotta make friends in the legislature or you're gonna get walked all over. [00:29:00] And that was definitely where we're sorry to cut you off. That's definitely our shortcomings.
We, there's even politics on these wildlife boards though, really. There, you can't just, oh, there, there's a lot of backroom meetings and stuff and a lot of things that are decided before, your wildlife water, your wildlife commission comes down and makes their final recommendation to the department.
And sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, but politics aren't just. Limited to our legislators. There's a lot of politics that go on Hey I'll vote for this and support this if we can get money for quail research or, brown trout or, whatever it is. Y yeah, without a doubt.
And it, over the last few years we've really built up a good relationship with our division of Wildlife and Wildlife Board, and we're in a good place with them, but this legislative stuff is completely foreign to us. We didn't see [00:30:00] it coming. We should have been prepared. You see it all across the nation, and that's something that we need to figure out.
But , we're a long ways from there right now. And unfortunately the problem is that's what we're fighting now. Yeah. The problem is, Corey, y you've got a job that the Utah Homan Association doesn't keep the lights on at your house or put food on your table and There's only, and I'm sure all your board members are exactly like that, whereas the people that are trying to interfere with this stuff, they've got staff, they've got people that, that can look at these issues and strategize and they're professional.
That's what they do for a living. What do you do for a living? I'm a emergency coordinator for a tech company. Yeah. You're an expert in that field and you're learning this other stuff. I think that's why it's so important that everybody, these hound organization have got so many skilled people.
And if everybody would show up and say hounds man in [00:31:00] general, the whole hunting community has got so many skilled people that if everybody just did a little bit and contributed in a little bit of a way, we could really stay ahead of a lot of this stuff. And then we're not strapping our directors and our officers and these hound organizations with all this stuff, and then point the fingers at 'em when the, when things go wrong.
So yeah, , I don't want you to take, I don't want you to say, yeah, you said you made a comment that sparked that. You said, we should have been in front of it. You're taking blame for this. But I've watched you guys for a long time and you guys work hard. You've got a good reputation.
You're doing things right and you just can't catch everything because you just can't, you can't catch everything. So don't be too hard on yourself, man. Yeah, I appreciate that. It's, it is tough, when something like this does happen, it, you take the blame or not, it does show you where your downfall, your shortcomings are and where you need to strengthen your group.
But it is tough with the job and. [00:32:00] Fighting. We're fighting the Wool Growers and the Cattleman Association and the former professional professionals, . Oh yes. And guys that, that old guys favor and have a lot of money and, and it's, it'll take a miracle to get this vetoed, that's for sure.
Do, does the Utah Hounds Man Association, do you guys have a paid lobbyist that works for you out there? We don't, yeah. I'm meeting with one today though. , I guarantee you that the cattlemen and the wool growers, they've got lobbyists that are working in their interests. And I think there's an opportunity we've featured protect the harvest there.
And you would think that with as many common enemies as we have, hunters and the ag community or Ranchy community have, we could find some common ground and not be trying to kill each other all the time. Yeah, I agree. That's a, yeah, , that's a problem. We should be all on the same side, but the same people that are coming and [00:33:00] saying that, you shouldn't castrate a calf are the same people that say you shouldn't be treeing a mountain line with a hound.
That's exactly right. Yeah. , and, oh, you shouldn't ride your horse. Oh, you shouldn't work your dog. Same group of people. Let's all get on the same page here. I think, as, as good as Bill's proposition five is, hey, it, when it passed, we were right on the verge of losing, trapping, and hound hunting.
So it was a saving grace. It really was. But it also lets these guys know that they don't need to. Unite right now. They, I think we've got another 30 years before the demographics. I, it could change really fast, especially with a bill like this. It could really speed that up. But this, that's their security.
They tell us they have 30 years before they have to worry about that. And they don't think they need us right now. But I'll tell you man that's a common problem. We've dealt with that in Indiana, just getting people involved. Your average deer hunter doesn't belong to any organization because there's not a need.
[00:34:00] There's deer everywhere. The hook and bullet crowd's pretty much asleep at the switch because of all the great work that the North American model has done for wildlife in this country. And people are starting to wake up to it. But by and large, the. hunters and fishermen have been asleep at the switch and they're just out there, casting a line in the stream and walking through the woods and setting up their tree stands and doing whatever, and saying, man, this is great.
And they're not looking down the road. They're not seeing that big picture. No, it's easy to do. You bet. best. Yep, for sure. For sure. So how do we get, how do we get here? How do we get to this point where we've allowed the science north science-based North American model to be cast aside, to let people, make decisions on wildlife that have no knowledge of wildlife.
What, how do we get here, Corey? The ballot [00:35:00] box, it's who we voted in. We've got, this is the fourth year, and they're always seen these legislators get their fingers into various wildlife related issues and they keep getting voted back in. . We need to pay attention and and get out and vote and I think point out to the public, let this, be seen what these guys are doing.
If you hunters that are out just casting your line and sitting in your stands and that these guys are affecting you, they're gonna affect the way you can hunt. And when you can hunt and what you can hunt. If you're continue to vote 'em in, they'll, they have their own narrative. And I don't know how else to stop mother than to vote 'em out.
It's such a, the, this whole political arena this day and age is such a, it's just a quagmire really. I'll just talk about Indiana. We. . We have had a dominant [00:36:00] majority conservative legislature and governor's office for, man. I'm trying to think the last time we had a democrat governor here.
And as sportsman, we always jump on those bandwagons, and I'm not gonna try to make this a Republican democrat thing at all, but I think we need to, I, I worry because I see things more concerned about the dollars that corporate America can bring in the capitalism side of it.
And I sound like a dag on Marxist right now, and I hate it. But as sportsman, we have to pay attention to that and really challenge these conservatives that and our legis our legislators to, to act in the best interest on all things, not just special interests that's gonna get them reelected.
That's a tough one, man. It is, and it's not something that down. We're all Red Hat. Absolutely. Try to figure out, this world is tough. Second Amendment supporters and [00:37:00] freedom of speech and all this other stuff that goes right along with, it's basically the fabric that makes us up more.
We just like, for everybody to leave us alone. Let us, we'll take care of this. There's no sense I'm weaponizing this issue and making a political issue. We can handle it, but it's just gotten crazy. Yeah, I agree. It's getting tough to fight when they take it to this level. It's really disheartening to see, to be honest with you, we have a paid wildlife game agency with skilled biologists and what's the point of having them if we save taxpayers a lot of money, if we can get rid of the Division wildlife and let's let these legislators.
Tell us what's best for wildlife, man. Yeah. And then, and you talked about the paid professionals. Let's talk about them a little bit. Where are they? Where are they at on this thing that you know of? And don't throw anybody under the bus. We don't want jeopardize anybody's job or anything like that, but just they're in a bad situation.
They , they really are. This is a slap in the face to them.[00:38:00] But our fishing game takes direction from the legislators. So it's basically it. They without trying to throw anybody under the bus. They're, they can't really push back on this. They can a little bit, but for the most part just tell us why.
I want everybody to understand why they can't push back. They, in all reality, they control their jobs. They have the say Who works for the fishing game and who, who doesn't. If they don't agree with it, they can put enough pressure on the division to get people fired. Yeah. From the very top down to the very bottom. And these guys are terrified of them. And so they go along with it because they don't have a choice. And it's the process. They do take direction from legislators. Unfortunately, I'm, I'm a little more independent here where I can be a little more free and I'll just tell you what I've seen.
I'm not in fear of my voice not being heard by a legislator. I hope they are listening. [00:39:00] But what I've seen, the way they control that is through funding. So you get a biologist out here that's beating the drum, that, that shows up and he starts, he is waving this, Don't support this bill.
He's out there in the public eye and doing interviews and he's just exercising his rights as an American to voice his opinion. What happens is the guy that, that is the head of the resources commission sees this, gets it brought to his attention, and he's buddies with the guy from the Woo Growers and the guy from the Woo growers sees it and calls this other, the legislator and says, Hey, you need to shut him up.
So they call over to the department and they say, Hey, you need to shut him up, or you're not gonna get funded next year. That's how the pressure works. Y yeah, it's horrible. I, I don't wanna get anybody in trouble, but I read a couple of the local articles where the division was supporting [00:40:00] this basically.
It really looked that way. And I was on my way to talk to a different local reporter. and I called them on the way in. I said, oh, am I burning bridges for you guys? I said, no, not at all. Why? And I am I, you guys upset the way I'm fighting this. And they said, no, we're cheering you on. This was a slap in the face to.
And I said, God, you'd never know it by reading your articles. And they said we take direction from the vi from the legislators and we don't have a choice on this. So it's a . I do feel for 'em. They're in a bad position. They went to school for this. They're on the mountain constantly working hard and trying to do the best they can to manage our game the way that they think.
It's the data backs it up and supports and these guys can just override 'em. And if they have anything to say about it, then they potentially lose their job. Yeah, it's a horrible deal. It's easy for us to sit back and say that, that biologist out there, he works for me and he needs to voice his opinion.
And if he really [00:41:00] believes in this he'll. He'll find another job and you gotta make sacrifices and blah, blah, blah. But you're thinking, you're talking about a guy that's got years of training, and I'll back up a little bit and hounds men, biologists are easy targets for us.
Hounds men as and game wardens are too. But any wildlife professional is an easy target. And how many people do you have show up at your banquet? I think we had right around maybe just shy of 550 this year. Yeah. And how many hounds men are in the state of Utah estimates? I bet you we're close to a thousand.
That's a pretty dagone Good. That's a pretty dagone good return right there. You guys are doing things right and that, that tells me. But a lot of times these hound organizations that are. You have people that show up and then there's a bunch of people that won't show up. So for a homan to sit back and say, ah, he oughta just [00:42:00] sacrifice his job, they won't even show up to a banquet a lot of times to support what's going on.
They won't spend a hundred bucks to to support the cause. But they're all about this biologist sacrificing his job for the good of the cause. Yeah. And that, we did have a huge turnout this year, but you gotta think that's wives and kids or husbands and kids and so we probably had about 300 hounds men out of the thousand, honestly.
And you're exactly right. It is easy to point the finger when they're not willing to do anything in return. And I didn't realize, until I started collaring these lions with them and I'd go out on the deer, captures collar, her deer with them, and we take her mules and I've. done elk classification and just been in the field with them quite a bit after you, you make friends with them when you start call in.
Yeah. And and you get invited to more things and, hounds, men spend a lot of time away from their families on the mountain. , these guys have us beat. I guarantee it. I don't care how hard of a hound and how much you hunt, [00:43:00] these guys are on the mountain more than us, at least here in Utah.
I was shocked because I've cursed them for managing wildlife out of their office before , before I actually saw what went into it and I don't always agree with them. And that's what, where the public process comes in, where you can have a little say from your point of view. But boy I do trust them more than I did before I started working with them.
I think they are the experts I and their voice should be heard that. Yeah, that's, I think that's a good message right there. It's, I'll tell you right now, biologists we've got Seth Hall's a biologist and he's a, he's an anomaly cuz he's actually entertaining to listen to. But most biologists don't care about the messaging.
They're just, they're scientists. They're out there to gather data. They're very passionate about what they do. If they've got a spec specialty, they're good at what they do and sometimes the messaging breaks down. [00:44:00] They don't wanna be the guy in front of the public. They just want to go back out and gather more data and they're a special breed for sure, for the amount of school they have to go to and the amount of time away from their family and on the mountain and the pay that they get in return.
It's obvious they do it because they love wildlife. That's. No other reason. I think there's a big trend out there though to think that these biologists are working against us and against hunters. And you've seen the opposite of that, right? I don't, I can't speak to other states, but in Utah, I don't know.
One of our biologists, it is not a hunter, which is great. Even our law enforcement is all hunters. So no, to say they're working against hunters I don't agree with that at all here. When I was working at, and I'm not trying to make this about me, but I knew several people like you just described, I didn't know any biologists that weren't hunters [00:45:00] and they cared so much about it.
That they were willing to go out and get an education and make it their life's profession. And I saw so many of our officers that the reason they're hard on hunters is because they're a hunter too. And they were just saying, Hey, you don't come out here and not be a jackass. You don't get to represent me and other hunters.
And so that's a lot of what motivates these guys. It's Hey, we're out here. We're doing our job, we're serious about it. And we're, you take some of these biologists, they could have, they're smart enough. They could have been nuclear physicists and making, six or seven figures a year in the private sector.
And yet their passion was for wildlife and making a difference there. And I think they deserve our respect. Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. What's the process now, Corey? Where are we at? What are we looking at? What do hound men need to do right [00:46:00] now to can other states help you?
What do we need? Absolutely. If you wouldn't mind posting the link I'll text it to you when we're off of this call. And there's a, it's a simple click of a button and you just send an email. You don't have to put your address or anything. Just put your name and your comment and just ask to ve ask the governor to veto house bill 4 69.
Just let the biologist make the decision or, manage wildlife, not legislators. Yeah. So will it matter if a guy from Bear Branch Indiana sends an email to the governor of Utah? Nope, not at all. You don't think it'll matter, will it? No. I'm sorry. I thought you meant hurt. I'm sorry. No, it won't hurt a bit.
Yes. Heck, that'll matter. It's. You still have the money and the power being pressured on the governor, but I think enough public feedback's gonna make him think about it. And I know it is making him think about it. We've been in contact with his office and they [00:47:00] said they're getting a ton of calls both directions, which to me just shows even more reason to veto this and run it through the public process.
So a absolutely, I think it helps if Hounds been will take five minutes and shoot an email in. It's really a simple form. Yeah. You don't, doesn't require any real personal information other than your name. Yeah. So this link will take me to a, like a a prepared email that says, Hey, governor, don't do this.
I'm against this. And it's already written for me. All I gotta do is fill in my name and a little bit of personal information, nothing in depth, then shoot that in. And he's gonna get that information across his desk. It's not a filled out email. All it is Okay. Is a, you put your name and your, just like an email.
It has a subject line just in the subject that's put please. Veto house bill 4 69 and Okay. Then in the [00:48:00] comments you can put as little as much as you want. I think basically they're reading the subject line only. So if you just put please veto house bill 4 69, that's plenty. Yeah. Probably less is best on this whole thing.
Veto 4 69 and then say I'm a concerned citizen and this is not good for wildlife. And that's really all you need to say. If you try to write a book. They're not gonna read it for one. But unless you're a wildlife biologist or a professional politician you might do more damage than he did could
Yeah, that's true. And there's a, there's emails, he's people that he's seeking out for their opinion that he'll sit and read. But I think for the most part, he'll just see four against and tally him up. Yeah, for sure. What else you got? What else you got F for Corey? I want what would you, go ahead.
Do you, you say, oh no, I'm gonna turn you loose right there and then I'm gonna ask one more question. We'll wrap her up because I know you got meetings [00:49:00] today. Go, really if, like you said earlier, if anybody can learn from this bad deal that we're going through just strengthen your associations If you're not part of a hound association.
I think it is important to join them, whether you agree with them or not. That's how you have a say is by joining. If you're not a member, it's hard to change an associate if if you don't agree with what they're doing or how they're ran, then be a part of 'em and get it changed and help 'em out.
And you might find out there's a reason why they do things the way they do and understand it a little bit more too. But if we don't unite and we don't support each other, in different states, then we're gonna lose quicker. We're already on the chopping block constantly.
So I just urge everybody to get your associations as strong as you can and try to unite and stay close with surrounding states that you can help because it is a domino effect. We went unlimited quotas on a few units in our state and all, [00:50:00] almost instantly, Idaho did the same thing. Yeah.
Yeah. And there, I've talked to Lion Hunters this past weekend while I was in Kalispell, and some of 'em were from Idaho, and they're very concerned about the direction that Idaho's going with the mountain lion. So there's definitely a domino effect, and I think you answered it. Get involved, be the, if you don't like what's going on then get involved and you be the change that you need to see.
But I tell you what, Manam, I've seen this so many times. I was involved with the Hound organization here, and you'd get some guy that got elected. He was very much loud and against what was going on. And then once he got elected to a board position and he started figuring out, oh, this isn't as simple as what I thought it was, and this is why this is done.
It's an eye-opening experience for a lot of 'em, for sure. Yeah, I'll tell a quick story, but yeah, I,[00:51:00] I, like you said earlier, I just hunted. I kept myself and maybe one or two good friends I'd hunt with occasionally, but I didn't get online ever. I wasn't on social media and you're just living in your own little hounddog world, weren't you Corey?
Yeah. And then I saw Cougar increases affect my backyard one time, and boy, I got right on Facebook and cursed the hand association, what the hell are you guys doing, allowing this to happen? And , one of them called me and said, man, it fits the management plan. And what's the management plan? I didn't know what the cougar management plan was and it was worked out and where you can't fight that it, it did fit the criteria for an increase.
I didn't know why. I just knew that I was gonna have a hard time, a harder time finding the line in my backyard, . And I didn't know anything else but Now, I'll fast forward while I'm on the board and sitting in the meetings and actually part of coming up with these management plans with their, with our [00:52:00] state agency, and it's a whole different game.
And I'm now, I'm getting the calls and getting cursed out , or why are you supporting this? And if you're not involved, you don't know. And the more you know, the more you can help change. Yeah. And I wish every Homan out there would understand that the importance. Nobody's gonna ask you to do it all.
Just do what you can. If you can do, if every homan would do what they can, maybe. , maybe it's just forwarding stuff on social media because you're a member and you're tracking Utah Homan Association. Maybe it's showing up at the banquet and helping set up chairs. Maybe it's, you've got a, a local supporting good store that just gets one item for an auction item to take your banquet.
If everybody would just do what they can, ma'am, we'd be so much stronger. That's exactly right. Every, we're all just a spoken hill and if everybody can just do a little bit it goes a long ways. Yeah, for sure. Corey, send me that [00:53:00] link. I'm going to, matter of fact, I'll probably post it on Facebook and the social media sites today are channels there and get people involved and every voice matters on this.
Yes, definitely. Yep. And I sure appreciate you doing this. Corey, I appreciate you taking time and helping us understand what's going on there. We didn't get deep into the issue, but I think there's been enough press to understand what's going on. We just need to keep beating the drum, get involved.
Don't sit back and think that somebody else is gonna take care of things for you. And it may sound like a good deal. I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, yeah, I can go to Utah and chase lions and do it on a small game license. What a great deal. But five, 10 years down the road, it's not gonna be a good deal.
No. You'll it'll waste a lot of gas and money coming here trying to find an easy lion because they're, this, if trapping [00:54:00] goes through, it will, they're not hard to trap. Corey, thanks a lot, man. I appreciate you taking time to be on the Hounds Man XP podcast. Thanks for listening everybody.
Make sure you're checking out hounds man xp.com and a lot of good resources over there. Shop with our sponsors, they're in this fight too, and thanks for listening. This is a Hounds Man XP podcast. This is fair Chase.
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