From Rabbits to Rhinos - Safari Club International

Show Notes

When the Utah Houndsmen Association faced an attack on the mountain lion they searched for all of the allies they could. Among the biggest, baddest and well armed is Safari Club International (SCI). SCI stepped up to the plate and offered support to continue the fight for Houndsmen in the State of Utah.

On this episode of the Houndsman XP Podcast host, Chris Powell is joined by Chris Tymeson from SCI and is covering issues in our western states. Chris describes his advocacy and the mission of SCI as covering everything from rabbits to rhinos. 

Once again Houndsman XP is bridging the gaps between our hound hunting community and the most powerful allies we can have as hunters.

“First for Hunters”- Safari Club International. 

www.safariclub.org

www.houndsmanxp.com

Show Transcript

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This is the Homan XP podcast.

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The original podcast for the complete hounds.

The podcast that represents our lifestyle of extreme performance.[00:02:00]

Yeah. Good boy, ranger Uniting Homan across the globe from east to west, north to south. If you're gonna catch a cat or a line, you have to have teamwork. We take you to the wildest places on earth. Yeah. So how many days a week can you spend up? As much as I can, to be honest with you.

Anytime that I get I'm out there. Join us for every heart-pounding adventure on Hounds xp. I'll tell you, like I tell everyone else, I'm gonna hunt whether you're here or not, so you might as well be here.

It's time to get the groove on. Get your groove on with Hounds Man xp. I am your host, Chris Powell. Welcome to [00:03:00] another addition to the Hounds Man XP podcast. And I just want to tell everybody that's out there hunting bears in the west right now. I'm jealous. I've had to postpone trips to the west a few times already this spring.

It's aggravating, but it's life, it's one of those deals I'm really envious of you guys that are out there getting after it, getting the groove on with those bear dogs right now. But it's coming for me. The training seasons are gonna open up back in the east here real shortly.

Heath has been getting after it down in North Carolina with Brent Bunch BB as he calls him. A lot of exciting stuff watching those pups develop and come into their own right now. Such a great time of the year. A little bit hot, a little bit hot for me back here in the east. I'd like to be at 7,000 feet with Shorty Gorre out there on the Palomas right now, chasing some hounds and doing some hounds, man stuff.

So I don't feel like such a [00:04:00] half-ass hounds man right now. And I really do. Seth is chasing bears in British Columbia. He's gonna have all kinds of cool content coming out on our Patreon page for all you patrons. Probably seeing some of the snapshots from that on our social media platforms on Facebook and Instagram.

He's up there representing Hounds Man, XP and Freedom Hunters just coming off of a Memorial Day weekend, and Seth is up there supporting the Warriors who face our enemies, who are trying to suppress our freedoms. I want to give a shout out to everybody who has engaged and ordered from our online store.

We had a little deal there over Memorial Day, released the Fair Chase t-shirt. And we were busy all weekend fulfilling orders, and they all shipped. So you should be getting your merchandise hopefully by the time this podcast hits the airwaves, and you can get out there and [00:05:00] start repping Hounds men. And the fact that Hunting with Hounds is the original fair chase.

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Hit the shop link and go in there. Also, check out our sponsors. It's very important that we're supporting the people that support us. Blockchain support is what's gonna keep us rolling as Hounds man, as hunters in this country. We gotta have that broad support from places like OnX. Dogs are treated.

One T D c go wild. The list goes on and on. Joy Dog food, you already heard [00:06:00] that ad. I'm not gonna repeat that. I don't wanna make this an admirer roll, but another organization that is out there fighting for us and the reason I went to this organization is after Corey Huntsman from the Utah Homan Association was on the podcast.

In the many discussions we've had. He said, safari Club International is getting involved in this Mountain lion debacle in the state of Utah. So what did I do? I got a three year membership to Safari Club International. During that promo, they sent me a reveal tact to cam, a lot of benefits there. And I also said, Hey, we need to have you guys on this podcast and talk about Safari Club International and what this organization does for hunters on a global scale.

So let's get down to it and talk to Chris Thomason from S C I and the guy's got credentials out the Wazo [00:07:00] and worked in the wildlife management field for his whole career as an attorney. It's a good conversation, gives you the, an idea of what we're facing out there and the work that's being done to preserve, protect and promote.

Hunting with Hounds. So let's get the tailgate down. The Hounds man XP competition. Extreme dog box is rocking. We got a box shaker. It's time to dump the box. Take a pretty deep dive into an organization that's been working for Hunters for a long time. We're gonna feature Chris Thomason from Safari Club International.

First for Hunters. How you doing, Chris? I'm doing great. Just got back from Washington DC yesterday. So sorting out what I need to accomplish this next week. There's gonna be a lot of Chrises in this show when we're setting this email up. We were going with you and Chris Lavi.

How do you pronounce his [00:08:00] name? Lavita. Lavita. Lada. Lavita. Yeah. It's like all of a sudden there's three Chrises in this thing. And I was going, huh? What? You're talking to me when we were trying to get this all set up welcome. Glad you can make it. Thank you. Looking forward to this. Yeah. Yeah.

So let's just lay out, se i's mission what you guys have, how long you been working for Hunters. I love your slogan. First for Hunters and just started I'm gonna start by addressing the elephant in the room because for a lot of years I felt like I was under the impression that s e I was, like more the white collar crowd, the guys that hunted in Africa and, what does s c I really do for me?

I wasn't a member for a number of years. I am now, but let's just start with addressing that elephant in the room. Sure. S c I has been around for over 50 years. It is an advocacy organization fights on behalf of all hunters. I like to say I do everything from rabbits to rhinos and I work just solely [00:09:00] in the Western us.

That's my entire job is to do government affairs across the west. Yep. So what what types of issues right now are taking up CI's time, taking up your time? You just got back from Washington? Just got back from Washington DC We did a fly in with our membership talking about six big issues that concern us on the federal level, trophy bands stuff like that.

And then lately in the west I've been dealing with commission reform. Predators are like low hanging fruit for the antis guns. I've gotten involved in a lot of gun stuff this year, but as it impacts hunters Whole smorgasboard of things this morning. I'm working on Mustang Wild Mustangs or in Nevada horses in Nevada.

Let's make the Mustang, the state horse. The one that's out there consuming wildlife habitat, taking up space [00:10:00] that, that other wildlife could be living. And we're gonna, we're gonna give protections to the Mustang that was not indigenous to North America. It's like making the Silver Carp, the state fish of Illinois or the Snakehead, the State Fish of Maryland.

An invasive species that we have to manage. Yeah. Yeah. When we're talking about, when we're talking about S C I and your involvement there one of the things that you had mentioned was predators and predator control. That's one that directly impacts this audience. That I am, that I always keep my eye on.

But man, there's been an onslaught of gun, anti-gun bills, ammunition, all kinds of stuff. So what are you guys doing with like lead bands and different things on federal properties? So that's one of the things we did this week in DC was talk with federal legislators about proposed lead [00:11:00] bands.

Every year, the US Fish and Wildlife Service comes up with a hunt fish rule. In the two administrations ago, the outgoing fish and wildlife service director tried to ban lead ammunition and tackle on all national wildlife refuges. The income and administration, which is the Trump administration reversed those rules rather quickly.

But it's still a constant battle. Obviously, we believe that it should be a member's choice, what they use. There are cost considerations involved with transitioning from a lead to a non-toxic type of shot. And so we met with our legislators and our members of Congress this week and talked to them about making sure they keep an eye on the US Fish and Wildlife Service as they implement those new hunt fish rules that they do every year.

They're transitioning those slowly to non-toxic opportunities or expanding from current [00:12:00] lead opportunity to non-toxic mandatory. There. It is not a non-top, not a non-toxic option. It's a man something that they wanna make mandated. And we've talked about this a couple times on this podcast, but I think that it's important in case people didn't pick up on it.

The other episodes we've done to talk about it here too, What's your opinion or s e's position on you? You talked about the price difference. What is that increase to a non-top toxic solution look like and how is it gonna affect hunter's directly? I think there's a capacity issue also, right? So ammunition manufacturers have a capacity issue.

You couldn't just be like, tomorrow it's all gonna be non-toxic. But I'm gonna have it outdoors when I'm gonna have it. Hunter and I drew, by way of example, I drew a special hunt on a national wildlife [00:13:00] refuge south of Kansas City, which is where I'm based. I based outta Kansas City, work out of the DC office, and it requires non-toxic shot for turkeys.

So I bought some tss, which as opposed to the. I was working in my basement yesterday. I must have a couple hundred Turkey loads down there. But I have 10 TSS loads that cost me about 60 bucks for five. So about 12 bucks a shot, 10 bucks a shot, as opposed to $10 for 10 of a normal Turkey load, two and three quarter inch or three inch load.

So it's significant. It can be significant. And it can be at a barrier. If you look at a pheasant hunter who's just gonna go out in western Kansas, it's an easy transition to get from, go from non hunter to hunter in that it doesn't require a lot of equipment. You get some blaze orange, you've got a shotgun and you pick up a box of [00:14:00] shells.

Some, just some lead loads. And you're gonna spend, I don't know, 10 or 12, maybe a little more. Depends on what you buy. And if you transition that to a non-toxic load, then you're talking 20 or 25. It can be expensive. Yeah. Yes. And we're looking right now, they're trying to expand in where is, just give us an update on that exactly where we're at on that, because I know that it was originally proposed for wildlife refuges.

And then I've always known I worked in government for almost 30 years and I've watched the creep, the mission creep, and once you get that first foothold in there, then you just start expanding. Where are we at? Are we still on refuges or is there a lot of talk about B L M and forestry, property, state wildlife management areas.

Are they gonna have tote get in line on this thing? Or what's going on with that? I haven't seen [00:15:00] the. You talk about mission creep. I was, I spent five years in the military. I spent 24 years in government, and now I work for S c I. So I, I'm pretty familiar with mission creep, right? And I was the chief attorney for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks for 22 of that.

And in that vein, state wildlife management areas, when it related to doves in Kansas, for example Kansas went non-toxic on those dove fields during the dove season because of the concentration of, and the management, like their growing sunflowers trying to attracts. And there's a fair amount of shot that ends up in those fields.

But each year we talked about that introduction of a new rule and the, what they're, what the Fish and Wildlife Service. They, I think they had 19 refuges last year. I read all the ru read all, read the rule for all those refuges. And in each opportunity they were expanding hunting [00:16:00] and they were transitioning that new hunt into non-toxic.

So it's coming in various places. The one, I'm a avid fisherman too. And I, I fish almost every day. I try to fish every day. I had 256 days last year fishing because I'm crazy obsessive. But I made the choice to choose to buy a product. That's what, 99% lead free. That is not always an option for every piece of tackle that you buy either.

And the Fish and Wildlife Service is transitioning fishing opportunities also to non-toxic. And that's a lot tougher. It's a really, as a, as an angler, that's a tougher sell cuz the product just isn't there. Yeah it totally baffles my mind. And maybe you can shed some light on this, but in your time in DC and as you're working on these issues with the legislators, by the way, these legislators provide funding approved [00:17:00] bills and different things for the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

So that's why it's important to know your legislators and talk to those people. But does it ever come up with all of the green energy options? We're pushing for one, the massive casualties that our wind turbine fields are causing across our country to migratory birds of prey. It's all there.

Does that ever come up? We didn't focus on that this last week, so I didn't have a conversation on that. There are choices that we make, whether it's. It doesn't matter what it is, there are consequences for the choices that we make. One way or another. And so as we move towards a greener energy or a requirement for some product to be more green, then, do you mine you have to ultimately mine something else to replace.

I was gonna bring up [00:18:00] mines. Yeah. And s sci is not really engaged in that. But that's just an example. Okay. So if you can't use lead, do you then have to come up with the non-toxic alternative, which also comes from the ground? They all come from the ground. So you're choosing just to have a different impact on wildlife potentially.

If the science shows that it's there. A hundred percent. I look at satellite imagery from a copper mine, which seems to be the direction that a lot of manufacturers have already started moving towards, with copper solids and federal release and copper ammunition. But you look at the environmental impact of a copper mine, and it's pretty dag on significant, there's a lot of, there's a lot of displacement there for wildlife when you start talking about copper mines.

And I just don't, for a simpleton like me, I cannot put it in my head it that, [00:19:00] LEDs more readily available. It's less impactful in the environment as far as the process of mining it. So there's another reason why we're moving towards. Towards this copper push, and that's that. I think that's what a lot of what of my audience is sitting back, we've got all these questions of why would you do this?

It doesn't make sense. I get that. Again, we make choices and those choices have consequences, whether it's how you spend your money or what product you want to use and its impact. I think you have to look towards the science though. And if the science, for example, led on a, an individual member of a species, is that gonna have a catastrophic impact on that species as a whole?

And in the case of condors, California condors, which are pretty rare birds maybe. But in the case of, pheasants in Western Kansas, no. My, my 153 grain. [00:20:00] Bullet coming out of whatever firearm I'm shooting and landing obscurely on the landscape out here, the chances of a condor coming by and picking that out of the ground is it's pretty, pretty minimal.

When you're looking at the vastness of that area. So it's just one of those deals that, that just baffles my mind. And probably the first mistake I make, Chris, is trying to find out, trying to reason why government makes decisions. If we could figure that out, man, we, we'd be onto something.

That's right. I would agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. So what else is s e i working on that, that we need to know about? So every day I wake up I, I used to be a wildlife lawyer. I like to think of, I'm a wildlife law nerd, essentially. Yeah. I get up, fire up my computer. And I start reading statutes and regs and scanning headlines for things that I think will impact our membership.

And then once I identify those [00:21:00] issues then I write testimony on behalf of the organization. Or I get our, I work in lots of coalitions across the west, notify coalitions. And then also I do grassroots work. So if it's super concerning, I think our membership can make a huge difference, which they can, their voices as individuals and collectively make a huge difference.

I'll notify those members through an action alert system that we have. It's called the Hack Hunter Act, advocacy Action Center. And if you take and sign up for that we would love to have people sign up. You don't have to be a member. You're gonna see the value in it. And hopefully then you'll become a member with us.

But essentially then I can tailor that to where you live, to send out an alert to you as a member. We have your email, and then ask you to contact a decision maker, whether it's a legislator or a governor or department officials. Yeah, we Go [00:22:00] ahead. I was just gonna say, so I look at those things every day and yeah, I keep a list of things that I'm working on.

We talked about Senate bill 90 and the Mustang stuff in Nevada. I was looking at some Louisiana stuff this morning too. I've got some comments potentially on some regs out there at commission level that have to be done by the end of the month. Wyoming wolves, Utah's got a couple comments I think coming up.

One that, and I'm a water Fowler too. I shot a swan in North Carolina several years ago at Tundra Swan, and I see that Utah's changing their regs currently. The. Take away the opportunity to, there's like a trumpeter swan allowance, essentially up to 20 birds. And that I find that a little concerning just from a hunter standpoint and having hunted swans.

I don't know that I personally, and I'm a pretty avid outdoors, one could tell the difference between a trumpeter and a tundra on [00:23:00] the wing. I'm sure that some people can, but I'm not sure I could. And if I'm the average Joe citizen coming from somewhere in the United States, and it's my dream to shoot a swan in Utah, that's a pretty big risk to get a su to get a violation for accidentally shooting a trumpeter.

No doubt. I understand. No doubt. Point the biological background, right? They don't wanna shoot number of trumpeters who are coming outta Yellowstone. I think that's where that population comes from. That's a little concerning to me, just as a hunter. We're gonna end up misidentifying it. We do it for ducks.

So there's that. But, hunt of a lifetime to come to Utah and shoot a swan and end up getting a citation. Yeah. And they get an accident and they're cellmates with El Chapo

For shooting a federally protected bird. Yeah. So you said something about wolves. It really perked my ears up. Yeah. What are you working on and why? Wolves are always, oh, Wyoming's just [00:24:00] got, Wyoming's got their comment period open on their wolf regulation. I am working on wolves also. Last week.

Spent a fair amount of time working on Colorado wolves. And it's been an ongoing issue. And by way of background, a few listeners don't know there was a ballot box, biology measure put forward to reintroduce wolves to Colorado. And it passed by 12,000 votes. And since then, it's been developing a reintroduction plan and trying to figure out the way that it's the least impactful to land managers and ranchers.

And how we move forward. That the reintroduction is solely on the west slope. Yep. Which we also know that wolves will not stay in one place, and all the votes came from the east slope. To tell the west slope that they can have wolves. Yeah. So th this year in the legislature, there was a bill, there were, they've been three, I think, bills, one on compensation, which we supported increasing the [00:25:00] level of compensation to affected farmers and ranchers.

There was a bill. On 10, the one that I'm most concerned about is 10 population, an experimental designation by the US Fish and Wildlife Service. As those wolves are introduced, reintroduced, or introduced into Colorado, the deadline for that is December 31st, the arbitrary deadline set by the governor.

And so we encouraged a bipartisan measure in the legislature, and it was really bipartisan to delay introduction until the feds have come up with that 10 designation. Obviously, when you have an experimental population like that, you can control them lethally in different ways, right? So if you have a pack that's decimating cattle herds, you could take out problem animals with a 10 designation without it.

You can't do anything. [00:26:00] And so only if they're attacking people. And so if the legislature passed that bill, and if the governor doesn't sign it, the governor's essentially turning his back on the western half of the state and the agricultural interest there. I think it's very problematic.

So I, we've been working in the, I have a very strong coalition that I work with in very strong chapters in Colorado. Very strong members politically and have worked on this issue for this whole legislative session, but prepping back last year. And now we're just waiting for the governor to either sign or not sign.

And we sent out an alert last week encouraging the governor to sign. Obviously, Now does that bill also without the 10 , does that also protect wolves that would move from Colorado to neighboring states, say Wyoming or[00:27:00] Utah? What's the deal with that? There's another, something on the table about that too.

I think that, I think that is not contained in the 10 And if those wolves do branch out, not a, we have litigators. I'm not a litigator. Yeah. For s c I, we have litigators who handle all this and it's probably a better question for them. More suited to what happens if a wolf, which comes in as a 10 wolf designation goes into Utah.

Yeah. I think that is going to be a problem. It's gonna be a problem. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. What other types of predator issues are you working on, Chris? I've worked frequently on bears and of course the grizzly bear gets in gzz. Yeah. Grizzly gets into the litigation stuff more.

So I submitted some comments on the grizzly bear plan and Montana and we also have a large carnivore biologist S C I is made up [00:28:00] of the foundation side, and then the advocacy side. And the advocacy side, legally speaking, is a 5 0 1 . The foundation side is a 5 0 1 and they do conservation work.

And we have the former Louisiana Black Bear biologist, she retired from the state of Louisiana and then came to work for S C I and she handles Carnivore conservation projects like in the Yukon, or, still working in Louisiana or other places, Florida. There's discussion about a Blackberry season.

So I'll submit comments on those types of regs as well. And then she helps me out in that regard. I'm simply an attorney, not a bear biologist, right? But I did work in conservation for a long time, so I have those basic principles down when I'm submitting that letter and stuff like that.

Mountain lions, also coyote, coyote contests on public land. That's a big one. That's another federal issue as well. But [00:29:00] we had the same thing in the states. The mountain lion issue, just I think in general, anti hunters. See mountain lions, wolves, bears, bobcats coyotes as low hanging fruit, like they can pick that off.

And that's why I think it's important when we talk to people and other hunters and we say, look, I know you don't hunt rabbits or you don't hunt rhinos, but together we're strong. And if you allow that other type of hunting to go away, you've weakened your own position when it comes to ducks or deer or turkeys or whatever it is.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the messages that we have always pushed on this podcast. When we started, there was no voice for hound men in the podcast space. We'd really lost a lot of the narrative to the anti-hunting crowd. They were in con total control of that. And nobody was really coming out and saying, Hey, [00:30:00] hounds men, you need to be aware of this.

And also, other types of hunters need to be aware that hounds men are out here and we need help. We need your support, we need your help. So we're constantly talking about. Building those bridges in the hunting community to strengthen all of us, because I don't care if you're, you're a, an elk hunter in, in the Rocky Mountains.

There's a lot of, there's a lot to lose if you allow the antis to pick off hounds men. And the game that we hunt, you're talking about biological data that's collected, predator to prey ratios that are gathered by wildlife managers. The healthier herds are gathered through a lot of these lion studies that we're doing out there.

So there's a lot for you to lose if you sit back and you think I'm not a hounds man and I don't have any desire to hunt mount lions. The Antis can have that one. I That's not gonna affect me. Yeah, it is. It's gonna affect [00:31:00] my XP. Podcast Network is sponsored by OnX. The most comprehensive mapping system in the world is available by going to OnX maps.com and downloading their app.

Several subscription offers there. Highly recommend you use an OnX, and here's a true story for you. We've all got that spot where when we turn our hound loose at night, they're gonna head that direction. The other night, my hounds headed in a direction for that property that had recently sold. I had no idea who owned that property.

I simply opened up my OnX app, found the landowner information, cut the dogs off, and the next day I went to their house. And not only did I get permission to hunt there, I think I made some new friends. They are beef farmers and they do not like raccoons running through the feed bunks, leaving their mess behind.

Yeah, [00:32:00] go to OnX maps.com and download the app today at checkout. Make sure you use the promo code H X P 20 and get 20% off. When you join us on Patreon, you will get a discount code for a deeper discount on OnX maps. Know where you stand with OnX. We certainly have strength in numbers and I've said this before, you know when game populations are high, hunters are apathetic.

They're happy. Oh yeah. You can shoot six deer in Kansas. Who's not happy with that? One buck and five do. It's pretty amazing when you think about where we were a hundred and a hundred years ago versus where we are today, right? Sure. And Kansas First deer season was 1965.

First modern deer season and it was pretty limited. And the reason why Kansas has a phenomenal deer herd today is because it's [00:33:00] hunted post rut, right? Those big bucks are less vulnerable post rut than they are during the rut. And so when game back to that point, game populations, when they're high and you can kill really good animals, they're not behind every tree.

Kansas manages for a three and a half year old book. But to get people to come out, unless there's a crisis, most people don't come to commission meetings. They don't get engaged. And I'm here to tell you, the antis are there every day. Their sole purpose, it doesn't matter if it's homan or raccoon trappers or whatever, they just wanna shut it all down.

So they're united in their purpose. Hunters are not. And we need to be hunters and trappers. We need to be out there every day cuz. The proverbial wolves are at the door every day. Yeah. They sure are. O one of the things that we had discussed talking about, and one of the reasons I really got laser focused on s c I was, [00:34:00] during this past legislative session in Utah the Mount Lion was reduced to I don't even know what you could even describe it as exactly, but a lot of the regulations and things were lifted on the Utah Mount Lion pretty much made it a year round season.

No limitations on age sex. There's a few stipulations that still exist in the law, but the reason that, that I really got laser focused on s e I is because Corey Huntsman and I were having, he's the president of the Utah Homan Association, and he told me that S C I. Had some focus on that and we're stepping up to the plate there.

So what are you guys doing there and who are you working with and just give us the low down on that. Sure. So we have a chapter that's pretty active in Utah, and I follow the process, the legislative process for every state west of the Mississippi and legislatures move [00:35:00] fast. And there are certain rules that apply to legislatures that don't apply necessarily to commissions.

Commissions, move a lot slower. In my humble opinion, the legislative process is a lot less open than I can call a commissioner, a wildlife commissioner, or show up at a public meeting that's announced during the legislative process. Sometimes in my experience of Bill will be heard the next morning, you'll get notice the night before.

And that's virtually impossible for, a working person to be able to be like, oh, unless it's your job to be a lobbyist, to be able to be right there. And, at, when it came down to this particular issue I think that people were particularly upset at how the process was, how the process went.

And there was an amendment on a, on the floor where people don't have an opportunity to speak on the house, house or senate floor of the legislature. [00:36:00] And while that process is legal, it may not be right. And so I think that upset a lot of people. S c I engaged with an action alert to our advocacy system, asking people in Utah to then contact the governor to veto it, to say, Hey, let's have a conversation if the science is there.

To support the proposal that was put forth on treatment of Mountain Lions. Then the science will win the day, right? It'll show, hey, mountain lions are not at risk of going out, blinking out in Utah. We're not at risk of diminishing the population to where we don't see these animals. So let the science be heard and let's have a conversation about it instead of rushing something through at the last minute.

I think that's really the big issue. And there is a mechanism to do that. And it's called the Wildlife Commission. Let the, let [00:37:00] this be heard at the Wildlife Commission. Yeah. They were pretty much slapped on the mouth and said, Hey, ke sit down over there and shut up and let us do what we need to do over here.

And it was snuck in at the 11th hour tacked onto another bill that, that, and it was just, it wasn't very extensive. I mean it was Just a couple sentences there, that, that pretty much stripped all of the teeth away took all the teeth away from the wildlife professionals and started legislating biology, wildlife management, and biology.

Yeah. I think that's another issue, right? You're, it's back, it's not vastly different than the Colorado wolf situation that we discussed. Ballot box biology or you're letting one or two people really drive this process because the other people on the floor don't know what's going on.

They just agree. They have to, at some level, you do have to trust your other legislators that they're gonna do it. So you're trusting that this amendment that comes on is the right [00:38:00] thing. And again, I think that process exists or it existed. They could have used that process to avail themselves of it, of.

A discussion and I think people are upset that it's a discussion item that didn't occur. They didn't get to have their input. I also think it plays a little bit into the hands of the antis who say, we don't care about creditor species. Now we've just gone and willy-nilly changed the law to where there's very little management of those species.

That's an interesting, that's an interesting approach to that. I never even gave that any thought. The legislators make this decision and then when we go out and we do abide by it and hunt by those, then it gives the anti-hunting crowd traction. I've got the same issue going on in Texas really.

There was a petition last year at the commission level, and it's, the whole idea was there is [00:39:00] no management in that state of right, of that species and. The arguments are similar to what I just said. No management. So they wanted to impose some arbitrary limits on the take of mountain lion in Texas.

And of course we argued un until we have some biology, let's just not upend the system and change it. Let's let's have a discussion about it and see where it goes. That whole deal down in Texas, they did opted for a five year study plan, a study commission. And when I read through the the participators who were invited the pe, the groups that were invited, they mentioned stakeholders.

And in those stakeholders, they're allowing animal welfare groups to sit in this, on this panel. And why in the world are we calling? Animal welfare groups, stakeholders in this, they have no stake. They just collect money [00:40:00] from the ignorance of people who know nothing about wildlife management and say, we're trying to save this beautiful species out there on the Texas landscape to send us money.

That's their stake in it. I had, I watched that form, we tried to get on that stakeholder group. S c I did I'm actually going down there at the beginning of next month to meet with the director who just came on this year. And I'm gonna meet with him and the assistant director and the wildlife division director, bring in our folks from Texas Trophy Hunters.

For listeners who don't know, Texas Trophy hunters is part of S c I also. And I'm also bringing in that bear biologist that we have the carnivore biologist Maria. Davidson, she's coming in, so we're gonna have a little meeting, see what we can do to help out. I know there are some folks who would like to have some studies funded and help with some of those studies, and that's gonna be our offer.

Yeah. So s scis out there doing great things on [00:41:00] behalf of Hunters, it that, I just gave you a small smattering of just the mountain lion issue. We, we talked about Utah, we've talked about Texas. I did some comments on last year the antis made a concerted effort as they, as Arizona moved forward as the game and fish, which I don't think the game and Fish would have changed their policy on mountain Lions and their take based on those comments, but Right.

I saw that the antis were doing it, so then we had, I felt like we needed as hunters to have our voice heard, and so we sent out an alert on that. I've submitted comments on Lions in Montana and. Wyoming. Trying to think if there's any other place that I've submitted in the last I've been on with s c I for a year and a half now.

So now all my comments are starting to cut, run together. But I can think of those ones for sure. Yeah, I understand. I understand. Yeah. That whole Arizona deal, that was a, I think, I hate to go back and dig up the past, but we gotta learn from history or we're [00:42:00] doomed to repeat it. And, that was a, again, that whole thing was a deal where the anti hunters through the public comments section process suggested that bears mount lions and bobcats should not be hunted with hounds all of a sudden.

Boom. And so that was, and by my own admission, I didn't even think to call s e I, but I worked with Rocky Mountain Elk Wild Sheep Foundation a couple other groups that. And a lot of these groups, it was so new and it was because I was laser focused on that that we brought it to their attention.

Sportsman's Alliance got involved in that and yeah, it it died a miserable death. But this brings me to my next thing that I want to talk about. We can talk about the past all we want, but I think the best thing to do is be forewarned about what's coming. Do you have any information [00:43:00] For my audience right now is the time for people to start preparing for what's coming up and what's coming down the pipe.

So do you have anything that's red hot or even smoldering on the edge of the campfire there, that's man, that thing could spark off another fire. I think it's commissions. I think that the antis have figured out that they can somehow, Get into, let's say it's a purple state or a blue state where the governor is sympathetic to the antis.

And that happened in Washington State. That is a huge prime example. Spring Bear and Washington State. That's one of the first things that I worked on. And Hunter's lost a spring bear hunt. And were you gonna call, were you gonna call that a shit show? I'll call it a shit show if you don't wanna. I did not.

But the wheels have come off. The wheels have come off in Washington. They, there was a cancellation of the Spring bear season. We submitted comments all over the board. Lots of [00:44:00] organizations got involved, but the bottom line is the commission is stacked with anti-hunt. And it's not the agency.

I think the agency clearly is making sound, biological recommendations. They, some of the commissioners talked about science and. I was like, what science? Because I tend to trust the agency science just in general. Yeah, exactly. I don't think that the biologists who've devoted their entire life to managing species or are deliberately misleading this.

I don't believe that in one, one iota. But the anti-hunt, one of the anti-hunting commissioners talked about her science essentially not the real science. And it pained me because the biologist for the state had 80 years worth of data. That's real data science. Yes. 80 years showing that we can sustain this harvest.

And it was just ignored. And so one of the other commissioners made a comment, essentially, I'm paraphrasing, but like we talked about the blue [00:45:00] mountain elk herd, that was another issue there going on same time. And. The commissioner made the comment of why, I don't see why we should kill more mountain lions just so hunters can have more elk to kill.

That was her take on that essentially saying, let's let this, and the department was saying, the herd, the blue mountain elk herd, the calf production is low. It's in danger of going below the minimum threshold of what we think is a healthy herd. And her response to that was I basically, I don't care.

Yeah. This just paraphrasing. And so that's, I think, a danger that's out there. It's I, right now there's a bill in, in Oregon that's a hot issue. They had, their commission was tied to congressional districts, and this is a very nuanced issue, but tied to congressional districts, they got a new congressional district, which means they have to [00:46:00] change the makeup of their commission.

And there's a coalition that's working out there in the Oregon Hunters Association. Amy Patrick, she's awesome. Leading the charge and essentially trying to change the commission to be based on like a watershed model, like hey, or a geographic model of like this area of the state is this eco region, and it should have a commissioner representing that.

It makes a lot more sense than having a congressional district, which means the majority of those people would be centered around the Portland, Oregon area. Yeah. Not geographically distributed amongst the people who actually live with wildlife and who they could represent. And so there was an attempt.

We, we as a coalition got that bill introduced and supported, and then two weeks ago, There was an attempt to change all commissions. They couldn't change our bill, but it was an attempt to change [00:47:00] all commissions across the board to a congressional model with three at large. And so it would again, and it was promoted by the antis.

Then Amy out there working super hard on the ground, got a, an exemption for the Wildlife Commission and that bill, so that takes that away. So now we're back on the original bill and we got another couple weeks or a month to go. So that's a fight that's out there. Just so I know, I understand what exactly what you're saying here.

Say the commission is made up of 12 individuals. If it's based on a congressional district model, then nine or 10 of those could come from. These Portland, Oregon type areas, and then you've got one or two or even a mi minority out here in the rural area that lives with wildlife. Is that how that goes?

That's, yes, that's exactly correct. Okay. Wildlife, I just don't get it, man. I don't, do not get, and it makes me [00:48:00] question, it makes me question the validity of the North American model of, the first tenant. Wildlife is a public trust. When we want wildlife to be enjoyed by everybody as hunters, we're paying that bill and we don't care.

But I'm not coming to your homeowner association meetings and telling you what kind of flowers you can plant in your flower bed. And because my kids got allergies and he's allergic to roses, so because it doesn't affect me, I don't care. I don't live in your homeowner's association. Same thing goes in this instance right here.

You're not dealing, if you're living in the suburbs of Portland, you may enjoy coming out and seeing the elk and stuff and the wildlife, but you're not living with them. We live close to the lamb. We're out there interacting daily with them. And it affects our daily lives. It's simply a recreation opportunity for most of these people that want to have a [00:49:00] say in, in wildlife management.

Yeah. I think, I live in suburban Kansas City. I live on the edge of suburbia, but, and I don't have this problem with my neighbors. They all know who I am and they're, we're all comfortable with each other. But I saw it when I worked for the department and it's, I love wildlife, except when it's a coyote living underneath my porch or foxes.

I had yes. When I lived in my last house, I had a bunch of foxes. Cute little putt kits running around in my backyard, but they burrowed underneath my slab patio. And the reality is these people don't want wildlife when it impacts them, but they are happy to tell you how to live your life.

I've got a lot of friends and unfortunately even places like the Flathead Valley in Montana are becoming suburban neighborhoods to Kalispell. But I've never really asked any of my friends this [00:50:00] question. What is it like to try to be a hunter in a suburban setting where people really don't have the same respect, the same vision, the same outlook as what we do as hunters?

All right. I'll give you my spiel. Like during Covid, I took eight new neighbors fishing, had never bought a fish, they had never bought a fishing license, never gone fishing and took 'em out. And then one of my neighbors from Puerto Rico he had never hunted before and he wants to go hunting now. That's, I think you have to reach out.

And I, it, for me, it started with feeding people. I started feeding people fish. When you catch enough fish, you can feed a whole neighborhood, essentially at a fish fry, right? Yeah. But that's a good introduction to offer them some something like, or some, my, my one neighbor, I brought him back actually, he was, [00:51:00] he had gone away from hunting for a long time, and When I took him, he asked, I took him some fish and he's I started talking about hunting and he's I haven't shot a duck in a long time.

And I'm like, you know what? You like to eat duck. I'll let you have some duck. So right back into the fold he comes. And I think that's all right. I, in my neighborhood, I cleaned my fish on the tailgate of my truck, which awesome. And I, my daughter shot her first deer last year at age 10, and I cleaned it on the tailgate of my truck as well.

Yeah. I'm not afraid of that. Let's have a discussion. It's, I'm not doing it, wide open. You have to look, if you're coming by my house and see me at my garage and I'm, but let's have a discussion about it and get open and talk about it. And we have a neighborhood pool association pool, that type of stuff. And so a lot of conversations occur up there and people don't understand. That hunters pay for wildlife, they pay for wildlife for all, not just game species, but non-game [00:52:00] species. A lot of people don't understand that in the public. Exactly. My hunters dollars pay for endangered species to be managed.

And that's a shocker for people, right? They're like, hunters pay for that. Really. Yes. Hunters pay for that. And it's a it turns some heads for sure. It's definitely something that it gets lost in the sauce and the conversation a lot of times, when you're, we just dropped a podcast last week is, what is your why do you hunt?

And it was a great conversation and great topic to cover, but hunters have to be able to know these things and I don't, unless they get involved in organizations like yours where you can get alerts, you can get newsletters, it. If you wanna know what's going on in the country, then you know, you try to read, try to stay informed about what's going on in, on the political scene, or if you wanna know what's going on in your local town,[00:53:00] you take the local town paper and being informed is important and we can't develop narratives and have those discussions with people like you have, by the way, you hit all the R'S and the R three in recruitment, retention and reactivation there with your story, Chris, great. Yeah, you hit all three, buddy. Good job. Good job. Way to represent. I appreciate that. Yeah, so I just, I struggle with guys that are not involved, they say that hunting is their life. It's the most important thing that they can do. And yet you talk to 'em about what organizations they belong to and they, it's oh, I don't belong to any organizations.

What. How can this be? It's gotta be, it's gotta be a huge thing for s e i something you guys deal with all the time. Yeah, I think I was in DC this week and there was, there were some folks in who were not members of S C I but had come in as part of a group and they were walking around and [00:54:00] we were helping out too with them.

And one of 'em was like, I don't know, I am not a member of s e i. I'm like, sign up now. When I was a, when I was with the state I did a bunch of national work too. I was the vice chair of a committee, a National Committee of Wildlife lawyers for about 15 years, and that's where I saw S c I in action.

That's how I, first, I wanted to go to Africa and Hunt and I did before I had kids. Now I've got. Four between 15 and 11. And so we're really busy in the house. We still get, get out to hunt, but I'm not like zinging across the globe or anything. Wish I You got four between 15 and 11. Yes. My wife and you are busy.

Wow. Yeah. Yep. And two drivers who know more than I do, obviously. I always make the dad joke, you can't shoot red and green turtles out like Mario cart. You actually have to drive and pay attention to the road. Like dad really?[00:55:00] Yeah. Anyway I saw what s c I did, right? I joined S C I because I wanted to learn about Africa and I wanted to go on a planes game hunt.

And I thought that would be a good way to learn, but that isn't really, I became a life member in 2007, I think. Because I believe in the mission of S Sci I, and I saw what S sci i's. Attorneys did come into that meeting that I hosted a couple times a year. And s c I was the only group out there fighting legally.

We've got some good advocacy groups, but most of, and I'm not diminishing what an individual group does, but most of 'em are nonprofit 5 0 1 So they don't have the advocacy hook that we have. Like I can do advocacy all day long. They're limited by federal law as a percentage of it. If I can say one thing, if you want to, what the NRA is to guns S c I Is to Hunters join S Sci.

Yeah. Yep, for sure. [00:56:00] It's It's gonna take, and I know you said you were, you're not on the litigation side, but I always ask all of my guests that come on from organizations similar to yours when are we gonna start suing for wrongful death suits for these grizzly attacks? You don't have to answer that.

Yeah, I don't have a good answer for that. But that's what you're saying. We're taking s e I takes the fight back to, you're not just sitting there taking dollars and saying, Hey, come and join us and you'll get a nice newsletter and we put out this really cool magazine and you can come to our, hang out with us at the convention.

You guys are out there on the ground working and also, bringing litigation back towards the issues as well. We're bringing litigation and we're bringing advocacy to the fight every day. I was joking with my boss on Friday night and we were at this. Reception dinner and it, he's what are you doing?

I'm on my phone underneath the table [00:57:00] and I was like, I'm trying to get something done for Colorado. And he's it's seven o'clock at night. And I said, yeah, S c I never quits working for you boss. Pay attention to that nice little joke. Yeah. No doubt. What I was trying to find the mission statement and here it is.

The purpose and objectives are to advocate, preserve, and protect the rights of all hunters. That's the first one. To promote safe, legal, and ethical hunting and related activities to monitor, support, educate and take positions on social, national and international legislative executive judicial organizational endeavors that foster and support these purposes and objectives within the limits.

Imposed by law and regulation to inform and educate the public concerning hunting and related activities and to conduct any other activities. Set forth [00:58:00] in se i's articles of incorporation. That's pretty comprehensive right there. And one of the things that I see a lot of is S Sci is a recognized organization that the public is familiar with and provides a lot of education even to the non-hunting public, not the anti-hunting public.

The people like, so many members of my family that, that are just non hunters, they don't hunt, right? So education is obviously the key. And whether it's a member of the public or a member of Congress, we also have a pack, right? Largest hunter led pack in the United States and a super pack, you have to be a member to give to the pack.

So I'm encouraging people to join. We helped support those members in Congress, and I think the percentage was 94%. I saw it this weekend. 94% of the candidates that the CPAC supported were elected [00:59:00] or reelected. And last, the last election cycle, it was like 96%. That's a pretty good return on your investment as a hunter if you donate to that.

So I'd encourage everybody, become a member, donate to cpac, also become a member of TT h a Texas Trophy Hunters Association. They're starting to get more active on the political side.

Yep, yep. I think we should wrap it up with tell 'em folks how to join Safari Club International. Go to our website, safari club.org. We've got one year membership, we've got a three year membership. We've got a lifetime membership. Do one of those three options. They're usually running some specials around like Mother's Day father's Day.

So take a look at those. I think that I saw that they did a three year with a Tica or a, some sort of a trail camera that they'll send [01:00:00] to you. If you do that. I would also encourage people to come to the show if you've never been to the show. It, we just switched to Nashville and I've been a member, like I said, since oh four.

But I also used to come and teach at Safari Club. They have a continuing legal education class for lawyers there, and I would come and teach or attend that. So I've been to 10 or 12 shows. Nashville was hands down, incredible. Awesome. Great facility, great town. I was stationed near there in the army.

I was stationed at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. So I spent a lot of time in Nashville. But even that's changed in the la Imagine that in 30 years, the Nashville, the layout of Nashville has changed. But Nashville's an incredible time. The show is absolutely incredible. It's January 31st, February 3rd, 2024. You gotta be a member to come.

You can do a day pass or a two day or a four day, and then there's some shows at night. But get out, walk around, see Hunters, talk to Hunters, talk to Outfitters. [01:01:00] It's awesome. Yeah. Love it. Yep. I'm definitely going next year. Nashville's only about four and a half hours away from the house here and taking that.

But yeah, to give everybody an idea, we're talking $65 a year, $150 for three years, and then 1500 for a lifetime membership to S C I. And I joined at the NRA show this year. And opted in for the three year package there to really give it a good, give it a good test drive, but a lot of benefits.

Everything is on the website. If you go to safari club.org and you gotta be involved. We obviously we provide memberships when people join us on Patreon to the Sportsman's Alliance. And we're partnered up with them as well. But I'm telling you, you've got to be involved in these organizations if we're gonna make a difference.

These are the folks that are out here working for us every day to make sure we, [01:02:00] and honestly, I just feel like a free loader if I'm not doing my part and. It, it's e it would be real easy for me to sit back and say, good job, Chris. I'm glad you went to Washington and fought for my rights, but you gotta have some skin in the game somewhere, folks.

You gotta put some skin in the game. We met with over 60 members of Congress this last week and I can't remember the exact number of members, but members open doors, right? So to your point, I'm Chris from s c I doesn't open the door like I'm Chris from Utah, or I'm Chris from Missouri, or whatever it is.

I'm your constituent. That's what opens the door. And they wanna listen to you, right? They want to listen to the, those members, those constituents from their district. I'm with you. Join, I'm a life member of a couple organizations, yeah. NRA and s I am too. Yep. Put your money where your mouth [01:03:00] is, send letters when they ask you to.

I think the biggest thing for me, also for people who listen, I am not all knowing I can't follow everything all the time. And if you see something, say something, it's your obligation as a hunter to stand up and say something and send it to me. And I can amplify that, send it to any of the number of organizations out there, but in particular the ones who can advocate for you, send it to us and let us get the word out.

We need your help. I'll hold you to that one. Right on. Yeah, for sure. Cuz we've always got, our audience is great. They keep us informed of what's going on locally. We work with some great state organizations that are always keeping their memberships informed and keep, they include us in those.

So yeah, maybe we can do something across the board here. Keep S c I. Informed as well. Yeah, keep me busy. It's job security. You got it. Let's make sure we fight. Fight these bad proposals off. All right. [01:04:00] Hey Chris, I appreciate your time. I know you're coming in off a busy road from traveling and then you're heading back out, so keep up a good fight, man.

Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on your show. You bet. All right everybody. Thanks for listening to this episode, the Hounds Man XP podcast and make sure you're checking out our website. We're always putting new stuff on the website alerts, things like that. You can follow us on social media. Social media moves at the speed of light.

It's a lot easier to post stuff there than on a website, so make sure you're following us at Hounds man xp dot hounds XP podcast and the Hounds Man XP podcast group on Facebook. And then over on. Instagram, make sure you're following us. Sarah Under Hounds XP podcast. And check out, go Wild. Go Wild. The social media platform, four Hunters made by hunters, four hunters.

It's a great platform where they don't censor your material, so you can check us out there as well. Until next time, hunt 'em [01:05:00] hard and treat 'em like heroes. I must steal that one from Seth and Chad. I love that saying. But thanks for listening to Hounds my next peak podcast. This is fair Chase.[01:06:00] [01:07:00]