This is our one year anniversary of The Journey on the Houndsman XP Podcast Network. Heath and Chad Wheeler, his long time friend, bird dog enthusiast and first guest Heath recorded with on The Journey go back to the beginning. They circle back to the beginning of Heath’s hound hunting escapades. There are a lot of laughs down this road Heath and Chad have taken over the years. Chad tells how he tied a deer to a tree to go find Heath. They talk about carrying a shoulder mount camcorder to video what they explain as chasing dogs, not coons. Chad touches on a young female he’s starting and they take a trip back in time. Chad traveled with Heath to Plott Days in Pomeroy Ohio, 1997. Heath’s first trip to any major hunt, which you will hear how luck and a little Plott female named Brandy covered Heath’s spontaneous utterance that came out of nowhere that put Heath in the winners circle. Enjoy this time travel episode on The Journey.
[00:00:00] The Houseman XP podcast Network is taking you on the journey. Your host, master trainer, Heath Hyatt, will combine his decades of experience as a homan and as a professional trainer that will light the path forward and make our PACS lighter on this lifelong journey to become better hunters and hounds men.
There are no shortcuts. So lace up those boots and grab a dog leash. The journey begins now.
Hey guys, the journey on Hounds Man XP is teamed up with Gow Wild. Gow Wild is a social media platform that was made for hunters by hunters. If you guys and gals have listened to any of the other podcasts that I've been on, you know what a huge outdoor enthusiast I am. [00:01:00] I love being in the woods, my hands.
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On this episode, guys, we have been doing this for one full year. So we're gonna bring this back around to a full circle. And what that means is my very first guest was a childhood friend, longtime friend, pretty much still my neighbor. So I'm bringing him back and we are going to talk about bird dogs and we're gonna go back down memory lane and we're gonna run you guys through the summer of [00:03:00] 1997 in Palmoy, Ohio at plot days because Chad actually went with me and experienced that with me.
And I know I get a lot of feedback from y Coon Hunters about we need to do more of this and we need to do more for that. So we're gonna talk about Coon Hunt a little bit, and I'm gonna tell you guys how inexperienced I was and how much a dog actually won the hunt, and I didn't. So Chad, glad to have you back.
Thanks. And what's going on good in your world? What's up with the bird dogs? In, in my neck of the woods down over the hill, there's not much good going on. I've got a really nice female pointer that won a fair amount with, and tried to, I br her back to the spring and early spring and was all excited for a bunch of pups and ended up with one pup.
I think I seen that. So yeah, that was that's part of life. And that's, [00:04:00] Part of breeding dogs, you win something, you lose something. But the pup that I do have, she's time will tell, but she's fast and fancy as she can be. How old is she now? She'll be seven weeks on Saturday. Seven weeks. So you're about the same age as these out here.
If you need pups and I make fun about it. So Chad or Matthew, his son, they take care of my dogs for me 95% of the time when I'm gone on vacation or I'm out of town. And so we had a fpa So when I was in Vegas at the shot show, Matthew was feeding for me. And when I come home, I noticed one of my dogs I had my dogs doubled up.
Cause I'm gonna tell you about a gaff that I had my dogs doubled up for the winter. I do that with most of my dogs. And when I got home, I noticed one of the male dogs sniffing on a female that I had to pin together. So I moved her immediately, took her out. And lo and behold, she was out for three weeks.
She never did swell up. She didn't bleed, she didn't drip. There was no sign other than the male dog [00:05:00] sniffing on her. That's it. So no worries. Whatever come home one day from work was feeding. And I'm like, I think she's pregnant. And I watched her for the next couple days and sure enough, she's pregnant. So 64 days.
I went back and counted from the middle of the week when we were gone to Vegas. I have a litter of puppies that I did not want. The breeding on it is sketchy at best, maybe. Yep. Maybe. Yeah. We're gonna talk about that a little bit. But anyway, I told Matthew, I said, you tell your dad that.
You gonna bring a litter of puppies home, this is your F pie. And he's Uhuh, I'm not taking him home. Dad will kill me. And I said I'm just gonna take him and drop 'em off. And you can explain to your dad why you got a litter of puppies at your house. Matthew didn't want any part of that. So Chad comes over today and he's looking at the pups and we're talking about, what took place and everything.
And, we get to talking about the book Snake Foot because he did a lot of [00:06:00] line breeding and in breeding and, people have mixed feelings and mixed emotions on that. And no, you can read one article and says, absolutely not. Don't do this, don't do that. And then you read another article that says there's not proof for that.
Anyway, they're a little too close. But, after going back and listening to the podcast with Bart Rogers, there's enough jet genetic diversity because there's nothing in the seven generation pedigree in these dogs that match. Even though they're close, there's nothing there that matches. And I will tell you, like I said, I'm not I was not happy about the situation, but so far I have been overwhelmingly surprised with the actions of these dogs, the smarts of these dogs.
The genetic makeup I'm getting, I can go outside right now and show you. They've got really good tight feet on them. It tightened them up a lot, even though their grandparents had good feet.[00:07:00] Their feet have tightened up. Good hanging ear a little bit longer than normal, which I like. And just their drive, they're nine weeks old now and testing them out a little bit like I have out of the seven puppies.
There's not a, there's not one that you say, no, I don't have it. They all they all come together. They all have about the same amount of desire and their timing. They all give out about the same time. But for nine week old pups, and I've been watching this since they was five and six weeks old, so we're gonna see what they got.
The cut. They're beautiful dogs. Beautiful. Like I said good bone structure, good confirmation, good tight feet on them. And we're gonna see, I've got, I put some of 'em in, some really good hands of people that's gonna take care of 'em and hunt 'em, and I guess the jury will be out, but, the confirmation is a big thing. The mental stability, if [00:08:00] it's there that's a big deal. That's a real big deal to me, is the confirmation in their mental makeup. It's,
If you show a dog or a young dog, if you show it a few things or show it something a few times and it gets it, versus the dog that you show a few times, you think it got it. And then next week you have to repeat, you show the same thing. Those dogs are not I don't enjoy messing with those dogs and don't really want anything to do with 'em and, yeah.
Yeah. And just to throw back a little bit further, I was fortunate enough to get an another pup. I gave a shout out to Carl and Chris for hooking me up with Sassy and just super smart dog. I, and I've said this and I, I'm gonna jinx myself because I've tried to keep it contained.
I don't know that I've liked a pup as much as I like her in a long time. And I'm scared to death something's gonna happen. And I've told several people, I said, something's gonna happen to her [00:09:00] because, She is into everything. She's chasing down rabbits. She's chasing birds. She's just super, super smart.
And the pups, they're the same way. Like they're not chasing rabbits and stuff, but they're, they're smart. They're so intelligent. We've set up a fortress to keep 'em off the porch. We've built the gate, put it on the porch so they can't get it up, up and down the steps.
Then they figured up to jump up on the steps, up onto the trash can crawl through the the fencing, or not the fencing, but the rails. Yep. And get on the porch. So we fixed that where they couldn't get through there. Then the next, I've got a cross tie on the backside of the porch.
Then they figured out to get up on the cross tie and then they could pull theirself up on the porch and go through the fencing. So we had to block that all. And then they learned that they walk around the outside of the deck far enough they could still get on the porch. Yeah. And it's Man, you guys are like wizards.
You can't outsmart 'em. That's a good thing. Yeah. Super smart. They recover. And when I say that, like you can spook [00:10:00] them or give them something that they're not sure about and it doesn't take, but a second one or two of 'em coming back around won't know what it is. Their curiosity.
They're not, you don't spook 'em so bad that they're just done. Which in the next county. Yeah. I really like that they've got really good mouths on 'em. Already I can tell that they're gonna have super mouths on 'em. So Yeah. There's a lot of positives that I was not I was not happy about.
And it's turning into a positive. I see more and more already, like I said, I can do my short drags. And it doesn't take but a second. But then again, guys, I'm using the method that I learned from Miguel. And Lu Lewis. As far as putting the odor, I've imprinted them on the odor at the food and then started laying the track to the food ball.
So they have to track the odor. And I've got 'em up to about, I don't know, 50, 60 yards. Not nothing overwhelming, just and it's just straight line and I'll put the food outta sight and they slam it like it's [00:11:00] time to up it and put, maybe put a little age on it. So I did, I have implemented that.
I think I've talked about that on a podcast that I was gonna start doing it. But it's, I've seen really good results and all. I've got four left here. One of 'em, one of 'em gonna get picked up Saturday, so I have three left, but they're all there's none of them that's not participating or doing it.
So I'm, like I said, I'm pleasantly surprised and hate to admit it, but I am. So That's interesting. What scent are you imprinting them with? Bear. Okay. Bear odor. And if you guys can find me some good bear scent. Gras is out of business. I, in fact I emailed her and of course when her husband died, that, she don't produce the bear odor anymore.
I've tried the stuff from Nightlight and Cabelas and I, I'm just not a hundred percent sold on it. But I'm taking it just like Miguel said, I'm putting it in a spray bottle and I'm spraying the mist. I'm not saturating the [00:12:00] area. I'm not putting it down like that. So that's how I've been imprinted it.
And again, I use the same method as he did. He uses a bell and I'm using a whistle. I just whistle. And when I whistle, they know that there's food and they translated that over to the odor. And we went from there. If you guys need to go back and listen to both of the podcasts that we did with Lewis and Miguel and write down some notes, because it was very interesting.
And like I said, I started implementing it. These pups are nine weeks old and like I said, I've already got them using their nose for 15, 60 yards. So I, I'm not a professional at it cause I don't, I'm learning their method, but it's showing me results that I'm highly pleased with. So in the confirmation, I know Chad, when you was on here the last time, we talked about confirmation and, I'm a big proponent of that.
I like good running gear, I like good feet. I like that balance, right? The gate and the whole nine yards, all [00:13:00] of it ties in together. Yeah. It just makes it easier on the dog to get to the country. Yeah. So what else? You got your female and Yeah. Have a really, I've got. I don't know, six dogs, but six or seven dogs.
But not a whole lot of field trial going on this spring. Hit a couple, and that was about the extent of it. Last fall I was in Maine for pretty, pretty much the majority of October. And birds were hitting and miss up there. It wasn't bad. It been, it was better than Virginia. But yeah it's been better.
And I don't, I'm was been watching the weather now up there because it's hatching time and it's 50 degrees in rain all week long, so that's not good for this coming fall. Yeah. I know that when Jason Carter was on, he talked about that too. Yep. So that's where he's at, is up in Maine.
Let's so let's go back and. We'll do a real quick recap on you and our relationship that way. [00:14:00] I know, like I said, people may have missed it or picked this podcast up since then. But, Chad and I grew up together in a small town, went to school together, played sports together.
We hunted together a lot and everything. Turkey, deer what deer I was thinking about this the other day when I was on the bo. Don't say it. Don't say it. You remember Statue of Limitations may not have run out yet. No, but we were on top of the mountain mu load. Nothing. Which mountain? East River.
East River? Yes. The lease we had, yes. Okay. It was on the top. We were on the top mother loading and only charge I had was what was in the gun. And I shot that buck. And in that big flat up there. And hit him high. And it didn't kill him, but it broke his back. So I tied a rope around his horns and then tied him to a tree and had to come find you.
Yes. Yes. That was good. He wasn't going nowhere. It was a good deal. Oh, we lasso You [00:15:00] lassoed that thing. Yep. Oh yeah. It wasn't going anywhere. No. Good deer is one of the best deer I ever killed. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that, that little swag right through there was a prime travel corridor. And I wished I would've learned that earlier in life.
Like I, being a kid we was in high school, like I didn't get it right until after I graduated. And we was about done with that lease and. We let it go. And then I was like, man, because you remember the little the little Chinese dude that dad brought from work? Yes.
And he missed that monster. Yes, I remember that. What was that guy's name? I can't remember. He ended up, he's a good dude. Yeah. He went he went back to New York, but so dad had a, I know we're getting down to rabbit hole. Weird, but they had a guy that worked with him and he worked, he was an engineer, wasn't he?
Smart as attack. He he wanted to go deer hunting. So mu and this is things have evolved so much since then, but back then they had the old Thompson Center the sidewalks. And you [00:16:00] put the cap on, and if they got wet, they just did not go all, I don't know how many deer I missed with that stinking rifle misfiring.
So I, we had give him that rifle, I'd borrowed somebody's, and we'd taken him up to the same place you'd been. And we had been watching a nice 12 pointer, and a nice 12 pointer. I went, I thought I was gonna be smart and go out the ridge and the deer would come up in the next flat. And I put him in that swag.
And it was early in the morning, it was eight o'clock in the morning, I heard p and then it went again. I heard p and I'm like, what the world? So I don't, I waited about an hour and I eased out, back out the mountain to that swag. And he's sitting there and he's he's making a rocking chair sign on his head, like he's holding his hands up like a Phil goal.
And he's big deer. And I'm like what happened? He goes, the gun didn't go off. So anyway we hunted into lunchtime, went down to the house. I got some more caps put on the gun. It was double loaded. If it would've went off, [00:17:00] it would've probably knocked him in into West Virginia.
Like he would've probably knocked him out. But yeah, he was probably off. So I don't want to say the word disappointed, I mean his enthusiasm and excitement and at the same time completely crushed. Cuz he missed that deer. That was funny. Yeah. So good stuff. But yeah, Chad and I used to hunt together.
Chad was with me when I got into this dog venture, yeah, years ago. And then, so we coon hunted together. Chad ended up with an old red bone. Is that the only Coon dog you had? I had that black and tan too, but that was only two. Did that come from AD two? No, I can't remember where that black and tan came from.
The red bone came from Ad, yeah. Old Joe Buck. Yep. I remember that. Yeah. I'll tell you how bad it was. It was bad. It was terrible. I used, that's back when the camcorders started coming out and not the small ones, the ones you carried on your shoulder, the, like the 1400 Panasonic, whatever it was. So Chad and I got the big [00:18:00] idea that we were gonna start filming our koon hang adventures and we were actually up right where dad lives now, we went up Burton Holler.
Yeah. And went out the old road there towards Foltz. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. And we were filming that. And I remember your dog started squalling up in the holler. And then I don't, I guess I had Brandy. I don't remember. I don't even know what they were running. Like I don't, we didn't even know what they run.
We didn't treat nothing. And I said it on this podcast before I spent so many nights chasing stinking dogs that I can't believe that I actually still do this sport. That's what got me out of it. Some of us are just more hardheaded than the others, but Anyway, I ended up with Brandy and I know we've talked about that before.
I literally, and I got to thinking about it before we just, we recorded this because I wanted to have my timeline and my facts for somewhat straight. So I had bought Brandy in June of 96. [00:19:00] I had bought the Bear Dogs in the end of 94 is when I had 'em. And then I ended up with Frosty and then I decided, I went to a local coon club.
I'll give a shout out to them. Ballard, West Virginia was close to where we were at. So that's, that was our local club. I started going down there and met some guys and, I was like, Hey, I'm looking for a dog. And I ended up, Buying Brandy from Phillip Hunt and Brandy for You plot, guys listening.
Brandy come from Kenny Rourke up in Taswell and he, she was outta his breeding and I ended up buying Brandy and two pups outta her. They were a year old. And Brandy was just, Brandy wasn't two. She was young. Yeah, she, yeah, she wasn't two. Yeah, I don't remember exactly the age, but she was not old.
And maybe the pups, no, I'm telling you wrong. The pups were six months old. Brandy was a year and a half. So her first teeth cycle? Yes. Her first teeth. Yeah. And I had two, two dogs. I got, I, so I [00:20:00] ended up buying three, three for one. That was a great idea. So that fall, that, or that, that fall, I tried to bear hunt the one duck pup outta her.
And then the other pup, he done pretty good coon hunting. And I don't know why I sold him, but I did. So I started pretty much entering the competi. In fact, the very first competition hunt I went to was a plot sectional in Marton, West Virginia, in Pocahontas County. So I went up there to the plot sectional and I hadn't had brandy two weeks.
Two weeks went up there and I absolutely got schooled. I had no clue. I didn't know the rules. I thought I did, back then, they had the rules on the back of the school card and they were pretty simple. I got schooled and that schooling took place for about the next six or eight months.
I did not win a hunt. Did not win a cast. I was traveling, to all the local cubs and hunting [00:21:00] pretty much all weekend. And I'm, I'm sure you was with me on a lot of those. A bunch of 'em. Yeah. And then, Mop Thorn and Jean Lambert, Randy, Jack, they talked me into going to plot days.
And guys, I didn't even know what plot days was. I had no clue, like it didn't mean anything to me. Plot days we're going on plot days. I was like, all right they explained to me, said they go up there for the week and they hang out and this and that. And I said it sounds like a good time. Let's go.
So I conn Chad into going. So we we actually go, Mop talks us into going earlier. And guys, if you guys don't know Mop Thorn, you don't know what you're missing as Ahoo, I'm telling you. Like he'll make you laugh. He sides hurt. I'm telling ya. And give you the shirt off your back. But so they talked me into doing that.
So they said they were gonna go up a couple days early and get the dogs adjusted and whatever. And I had no clue. Like I'd never been to a big hunt like this. Like I had only hunted the local hunts. [00:22:00] So Chad and I. I don't even know how he got off work. I may have quit my job. I don't even know. I don't even know that I was working.
I might have been in school anyways. Yeah. Yeah we go to Palmer Oil, Ohio, and we get up there and of course we're staying in the local hotel. And I, again, I don't even know how it, I don't know where everybody stayed because there was only one hotel. So we get up there and we meet some of the local guys and there's this young kid, and I cannot remember his name, I'm sorry, but he was like, Hey, y'all wanna hunt tonight?
And we're like, yeah, we'll go. So we went up and hunted hunted down a river bottom with corn fields. And, everybody used to talk about, man, you go up there and you tree coons and this and that. And we struggled right to tr tree, some coons. In fact, by the time Thursday night rolled around, which was the all plot hunt, we I was yeah.
I don't know if we're gonna catch a coon or not go to the house. Yeah. So the all plot hunt again. So this is an experience for me because I don't know, I don't know these people [00:23:00] at this point in time. I'm a young kid in my early twenties with my first actual coon dog that has never won a cast that has only got schooled throughout the last year.
And I don't even know what the, I don't even know what the significance of this hunt is. Like I don't, I how, I don't have a clue. So we draw out the first night, and I can't tell you everybody's in the cast, but I know that Gary Cox was hunting old jack. And we, that was the all plot hunt.
And I ended up winning my cast that night I think. I think Jack moved. I can't remember. I think Jack moved on a tree and went back to it and got him minus. And that's the reason I won that night. And then Friday night I drew Lonnie Branden Burger Hunting Stinger. And guys, I will tell you, I have never to this day heard a plot dog as [00:24:00] loud as that scoundrel was.
He literally sounded like a train horn going off. He the biggest mouth on a plot that I've ever heard. So I drew, I knew I had, I knew I had him and that the, I'm pretty sure it's stinger's what he called him. I don't remember who else was in the cast, but I ended up winning the cast that night.
And I remember nothing about it. I don't we're up there having good time, we meet a lot of good people like, it was people from all over the country. Yeah. It was good people. Yeah. It was an experience for me that, like I said, it's been 25 years ago and I still have fond memories of the guys and people that I've met, through throughout the years.
So the last, on Saturday, we are we're getting ready to, it's in the evening. We're not we've put our names in, but we haven't drawn out yet. So I was sitting outside the clubhouse or the clubhouse, which was a big garage type thing in a fairgrounds. [00:25:00] And I was sitting on a picnic table and this guy comes over to me and he's Hey, you got that little female named Brandy?
I said, yeah. And he said, you win this whole hunt. And I'm like, what? He was like, you done won. You won, you cast two nights in a run. He said, you win night. He said, you are in. So it, anyway, it was Denny, long, Denny and Scott Long, and they ended up having, they had the dog named Outlaw, which I ended up breeding brandy to, and had my first little of puppies who two of those pups ended up placing in the world hunt.
Not the top 10 or 15, but they were the top plot dogs in the world. Huh. And I know that's not significant, but at the time for what it was for me. But so Denny's telling me that, Hey, all you gotta do is win your cash, man. And like it dropped on me like a ton of bricks that like, okay what does this mean?
And he was telling me about the Isaiah Kid Award and how this is the most prestigious hunt [00:26:00] for a plot person. And on down the line. It makes me sick. Like I start getting so nervous that like I could literally throw up. And so anyway, we draw out that night and I draw Wayne Steele hunting star.
He was hunting Star five and I, there was another guy in the cast named Rick and he was hunting a big walker dog. And we go to Rick's places and we pull up into this farm area and we pull up on top of this ridge and we shoot the dogs down, down our logging road down the top of this ridge. So we get outta the truck and we'd cut the dogs loose and the dogs literally opened their mouth.
And I said, strike Brandy Tree Brandy And Wayne still turns around and looks at me and he goes, son, I don't think I've ever heard somebody tree a dog so fast. I had no clue. Denny Long had me so worked up that it was a utterance. It was a [00:27:00] spontaneous utterance. And if in your law, in law enforcement, they don't go nowhere.
But I shouted that out and then everybody else starts treeing their dogs. And I'm like, okay. So we run, we literally not run, but we go down this logging road. They're in the middle of the logging road. There is a coon hanging from a grapevine, literally hanging. And the dogs were jumping up trying to grab it.
As soon as we get our hands on the dogs, the coon Basing's gone. And I don't remember what happened after that, but I ended up winning that cast that night. And. We come back and I end up winning the Hunt, had the high scoring female of the hunt. I, the high scoring dog, got the Isaiah Kid Award. And really reality has not set in on me yet because I'm still like green as grass.
I've never won a cast and I just won three in a row. The Lord is looking down on me like he's being good to me.[00:28:00] So I never won a cast. I win the hunt and on the way home, like me and Chad's talking, and it dawns on me like Brandy saved my butt. Like I was so nervous that the first thing outta my mouth was striking tree, my dog.
And I would've never done that in a million years, ever. And if that, if we would've been further away from that coon, if we'd had to walk, 15, 20 minutes, we would've, we'd have never seen that Coon. So that was my first experience winning a cast. That is my first experience winning a hunt.
And I still have the trophies, I still have the pictures. That's where the next morning, Chad and I were loading up the truck a big old trophy. Where we gonna put this thing? We, I don't know. I know it was like where, yeah, there was three of them. And we had to think, we look like the clamps going down 77 back to West Virginia in, into Virginia.
Yes. That was [00:29:00] hardware hanging out of that truck everywhere. But anyway, that come outta the motel room that morning, we're loading the truck up and that's where I run into Steve Fielder and that's where I met Steve. And Chad actually took the picture with me, Steve and Homan cuz Steve had Wrangler and he was the opposite sex winner.
And of course that started our relationship 25 years ago. So it, it has just built off of that. The experience has never been duplicated. I went back to plot days many years after that and never, just never had the luck. Never, played. I may have won a couple times. I know the next year and I don't know if you went with me or not the next, I don't think so.
I don't think I went back the next year. I got the high scoring dog of the year and handler of the year. Because I continued to push her and hunt her. And she was a super, super nice little dog. I was gonna say she was a bang up coon dog rest for sure. Yeah, she was, even though she was a plot [00:30:00] Mikayla she'd grab you a coon, but her specialty was a layup.
That's what won most of my cast is she'd go in there and just fall tree and the other dogs, over 50% of the time, the other dogs wouldn't even make a peep. And you'd go in there and she'd have a coon laying on the limb and. But anyway, so what's your recollection of that? What do you remember about that?
Great experience. The trophy thing, putting them in the trim of truck that I, that was, I'll never forget that. No, that was like, what we gonna put this down? What did we do? Foot tall? Did we bungee him in the back? What did we do? Yeah. But we were scared to death they were gonna get broke. Yeah.
Yeah. Cuz I had to, and Mop was there. And Mop and Jean were there. And here's Heath and his little Kondo and won the whole freaking thing. It was just crazy. The journey on Hounds XP has teamed up with one tdc, this dual action support for oral health and mobility in our dogs. [00:31:00] This unique supplement is so effective that it is recommended by top veterinarian experts worldwide to maintain and improve our dogs health in four different areas.
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Hey folks. I hope you're enjoying the journey on the Homan XP Podcast Network with Heath Hyatt. He's always putting together a lot of good information for us. This is Chris Powell with the Homan XP podcast, and I want to give you some good information. Right now I want to talk to you about OnX Maps.
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It's that easy, folks. Check out OnX onxmaps.com. You can find their link on our email@example.com. Know where you stand with OnX. [00:33:00] It, it really it set some relationships back for a little bit. Yeah, I will say, yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah. You think you're, you think these guys are your buddies way till you start winning.
Yeah, but it's all good now, but yeah it hurts some feelings and I was just lucky, like Brandy saved my, that last cast. I'm telling you, she saved my butt. They just went in there and fell. Treat, and I don't even know that I heard her come treat. I just bared out. But you weren't on that cast with me.
I was not. No, but you went on the other two. Yep. Yeah, that was a good time. Did we go to any more? It was hot. God. I do remember it was hot. Hot. It was always hot. Plot days were always in the middle of July. July, and, so all the kids could come. It's still, it was miserable.
Oh lot. Yeah. It's a wonder we didn't get it up with snakes. I don't remember. I don't remember ticks being an issue though. No, but the deer population wasn't as like it is now. True statement. It wa it [00:34:00] wasn't that way. True statement. But yeah. No, that was a good time. It, yeah, it was fun. Yeah. Like I said, those trophies still stand, they're in my.
They're in my man, they're in my man cave with a couple pictures. But yeah, that and I did the same thing. I went up to me and Earl McKinney, Scotty Woods went up to blue Tick Days up in Asheville, Ohio. And I don't know, I was supposed to meet on Marlow Arp up there for Steve for some, maybe they had bred Roper to to, they had that show, the World Show Dog, Annie Oakley, I think it was the name.
And I don't know what I had to exchange dogs or something there. But anyway, so I went up with them. Same thing I was, I took Bell, which is my little blue female my Cameron female and was planned on hunting her. And I don't know why I took Brandy with me, but I did. I think Earl maybe taught me into it.
But anyway, bell come in heat, so I ended up having to hunt the Grand [00:35:00] Night Champion cast, which I didn't want to do, and ended up winning my cast both nights up there and. Me and Scotty had the same problem we had. I had a bunch of big trophies trying to hand out that truck. Yeah. We did the same thing.
Or maybe I put 'em in. I know. I brought, I had 'em in mine, but yeah, that's, that was another good dog too. Bell. Bell yeah, I've talked about her on here several times. I just, an all around good hound handled like a K better than your kids. Yep. Could trail, could run. They, she didn't have a top end speed that I like now, but she's caught plenty of game.
But if she come across the track as she's gonna take it. Yep. Yep. Yep. The, so you mentioned top end speed. Talk to me about that. What do you like what, why you say top end speed. Putting the heat on it. I, yeah. I like a dog that run [00:36:00] runs to catch. And I know that's a blanket statement, but I want them to catch game quick.
And I feel like the quicker you catch it, the I don't know that I'm explaining it. I like a dog that can put pressure on a animal fast. I don't want to have to run the bear 6, 6, 8 hours. So I want something and the my blue, my camera dogs, they caught just as many bear as my walker dogs.
They just did it an hour and a half later, if that makes sense. It does. Bell and Clyde caught plenty of bear by theirself. But where Ring was catching them ring, Sam Smokey was catching him in an hour and a half, they'd run 'em three hours. And I really didn't realize the difference.
In that, and Bele and Clyde both ran with their heads up. They didn't drag their noses. Like some dogs do. They just didn't have that catch speed, if that makes sense. Yeah. So yeah. But yeah, I would, I'd give anything to have two more dislike her man, just a pleasure. [00:37:00] A pleasure to hunt, a pleasure to be around.
Pleasure at the house. Easy going. Yeah. That's, I miss that dog. So you hunt with a bunch of other, a bunch of other guys. Do you see the emphasis put on speed and do other hunters put the emphasis on the foot speed? My guys, or just in general? Just across the board. Do you see that emphasis or, yeah, I think the guys that I hunt with, they see the importance of it.
Now, do all of our dogs operate that direct in that? No, they don't. I've got dogs that's faster than others. But yeah I know that it's important to 'em, you want a couple dogs that can get up there and Right. And put meat on Yeah. And put it on them.
Yeah. I think I, I think it is important for the group that I hunt with. Now, does everybody see the same? No. And packs are packs. You've got weaknesses in every one and you're trying to fill holes. Some of our better trail [00:38:00] dogs don't run with their head up, but they trail a lot better than our running dogs. So Yeah. Yeah. So what's, what, tell me something about some of your fondest memories. What do, what is some of the things that you remember the most? And I know it's been 20 years ago, but Oh my gosh. Probably the. Looking back on things, the porter, Annette F two 50. Oh yeah.
From West Virginia. Full of hounds. Yeah. And just dumping them. What a disaster that was at times. Yeah. That was lemme spend the rest of the day catching dogs and bear, we didn't have bear, like there is now, and you got a little a snow on in December and it was, all over the place trying to find a bear track.
And I remember running people down to come bring their hounds and put on a bear track [00:39:00] and Yeah. That, were you with me? I think you might have been with me the time that Jimmy Hurst from over in Dublin. Was up in. We found a track up in spiders and Yeah. Ran him down and Yeah.
I don't know the, yeah, because the two dogs that I had wouldn't run a warm biscuit unless the dog was doing it with him. And I talked about that before yeah I had two dogs, but, or one of 'em ended up getting run over. But yeah, I mean it was a me too dog. Whatever your dog did, he did, but he wouldn't do it by himself.
Yep. Times were tough then. It was a lot different than it is now. I haven't been on a bear hunt around here in a while, but I see plenty of bear. Yeah. Again, it's a learning experience. And I'm a lot more knowledgeable now, but back when I had frost and you hunted with Frosty.
Oh yeah. Frosty catch bearer. Oh, I hunted a whole December. A whole December and never had a bear race, yeah. I don't think people understand now how hard [00:40:00] things were and. How much effort and time it took just to catch a bear. Yeah. Much less catch two or three a day sometimes like we do or Right.
Yeah. I had a good week. I, I called a bear every day this week. Those, it was not that. No, it was tough. It was tough. Tough. And I, I know with the bird dogs, it takes birds to make a bird dog, and I assume it takes Barry to make a bear dog. Yeah. And your odds now are substantially better than they were back in the day.
There's no doubt. Yeah. Like I said, I, and I don't remember what podcast this was on, but, catching my first bear by myself was a feat. And it was not easy. And it took a couple years. Now I could go with somebody else and Right. And to be successful. But that's not what I wanted.
For me, I wanted to be able to take me and my four dogs and guys for a long time. That's what I hunted. I hunted, I had Frosty Sam, smokey [00:41:00] and Bell. And then of course Clyde was two years younger than Bell. Then he come along. But I mostly, mainly had about four dogs that I hunted and I wanted to be able to do it by myself.
And didn't you have a brother to Frosty? No. No. There was only four pups in that litter. It was ar Lance had ar and then Billy Patton had the brother and the male and the female, the brother and sister to him. Maybe it was you bred that dog, maybe it was, you read him fair amount, didn't, yeah.
Yeah. And again, inexperience, I let, I bred him to Brandy, my, my good plot female and had a litter pups and had two nice pups outta her. Them two that was big old big ball mouse. And I had one that I called Ho and I was out of town working and he got loose at the house and got down in the road and got hit and dislocated his hip.
Dad just took him back up and put him in the pen and didn't take him to the vet. The time I got home, that week that by the [00:42:00] weekend the vet said that I can set it, but it's not gonna it's not gonna make it so not gonna make it any better. So we kept him. I tried and that just didn't work out.
But yeah, bear, were hard to come by and, you catch five bear a year, oh, you were doing something, you better pat yourself on the back. And I hope everybody, one of the things that I, if I could really get people to understand is how important conservation is that it is. I know the game department and the hunters have two different opinions.
The D w R wants to start. Decreasing the population because of the complaints. And I absolutely get that. But at the same time, the hunters, especially on National Forest, those complaints aren't coming from National Forest. And we get back to a time where you're catching four or five barrier a year it's going, it's gonna be a problem.
Yeah, absolutely. And I'll tie into that too, the National Forest, I think the National Forest [00:43:00] is in a bad spot as far as habitat management right now. I don't think they're doing enough. People can form their own opinions, but clear cutting is ugly initially. But it's great habitat. It's fantastic habitat for everything for many years to come. And I don't think there's enough clear cutting on the national forest, and I understand why it's a political mess but yeah. Yeah. I mean you can just, you can look at deer, you ride through national forest. How many deer do you see? Big pretty woods. Big pretty woods. There's no, no deer out to anything there. It's, yeah. It's tough. They're not, yeah. It's different to being on the farmlands. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, conservation is it's important to me in our, in our group and even though we have fu PAs sometimes Sure. It's not not something that we want, we want to preserve what we have.[00:44:00]
Cuz like I said, times are good right now. Yeah. Times are good. And when I can take my dogs out five days a week and catch three or four bear, I'm happy, mean Absolutely. Yeah. You can't do any, yes. You can do better than that. You can catch two bear a day, five days a week. Yep. We, I get it.
But I'm saying, for the average person, that's a good week. Yeah, definitely. So it's, that's night and day difference than 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So did you hunt with me when I was hunting any other plot dogs or was it just brandy and in I was thinking that I hunted with, didn't you have, you had a male, did you have a mail that you got from the guys up in West Virginia up in Pocahontas County, Eugene Walker and him.
Didn't you have a mail but from them? No. No. I, everything I hunt, hunted, come off Brandy. I bred Brandy to outlaw and kept a dog named Heidi and Greed got the better of me on that. I [00:45:00] sold her and I should never sold her. Probably one of the best young dogs I've owned in the Coon dog side. And then I bred her to Roper and I had a dog named Candy.
I remember the candy dog too. Yep. Super nice little female. Yep. And same thing. I, here's a mistake that I made guys, and not knowing what I know now. So I kept the dogs up above my dad's barn lot. And dad had house the barn, barn cats. He had two cats, two gray b two gray bobtail cats.
And when the puppies were loose, they'd run down there and they'd run up the ladder at the loft. And p the cats would sit up there and the dogs would go up and tree on them. And Candy being one of those dogs, the very first thing that she ever treated at night by herself was a bobcat. And she was 10 months old, which is phenomenal among itself.
And I could never get her off [00:46:00] bobcats. And I got to the point where I was using the e collar. More than I should have because I thought I knew what she was doing and I didn't. And one night she took off across the field, full moon. And I lit her up. And anyway, they ended up, Brandy ended up taking a coon across that field and treating it on the other side.
And I had shocked Candy off of it. Yeah. Because she opened first and that was being the inexperience I didn't know. And I was letting 'em treat the barn cats, which now would not be a problem. I would fix that in about two seconds. And I ended up selling her down in Georgia and she made a super nice little female.
The mistakes that I've made by inexperienced and not knowing what to do or how to do it. And let, I've let some good dogs go, man. Like I've really let some good dogs slip because I got aggravated with them or not knowing what to do to fix the problem and you just apply e [00:47:00] you, you apply pressure and that really doesn't fix the issue most of the time if you don't understand the behavior that they're giving you oh yeah.
Absolutely. Heath, I've wrecked some dogs with the collar. Straight up I've wrecked them. Yep. And lessons learned. And you learn from your mistakes and you don't make the same mistake again. And, but yeah, I understand. Yep. That was me. And I, I, you learned back then, I really didn't have anybody teaching me that part of it.
I was learning, Pappy come in the scene and, I have to give him credit. The reason I won plot days is cuz he took me under his wing and told me how to. Call my dog and told me what, okay, when this is happening, this is what she's doing. Expect this next, give me really good guidance.
And I was able to win two cast and then Brandy saved me on the third cast cuz it was nothing but sheer luck. But I didn't have anybody really teaching me that type of stuff. And it was trial and error, which was a lot of error, don't do that again. Okay, we'll try this Uhuh, don't do that again.
We call it [00:48:00] on the job o j t here on job training at work. You keep doing something over and over. You just do it different each time until something works. And I did a lot of that. Sometimes I was a lot too hard handed on dogs. And I learned real quick that I could only have one type of dog that could take that.
Instead of taking the little bit softer dog and molding that dog into what I wanted to by making him confident and I'm doing it. It's a whole learning process for me. Like I said, we circle around for this podcast for a year. But if you circle back to the beginning for me and I'm still learning today I, like I embrace it.
I'm like a sponge. Like I want to know all the information that you know, because it may help me later on. Dogs are not cookie cutters. No. You just can't stamp out. E even you're talking about your breeding, you can't, even though we breed two dogs and we expect these behaviors, the chances are you're gonna get some type of mix in there that is not what you expected.
Or you're gonna find something that's come 10 generations to [00:49:00] back. Where did this come from? Yep. Yeah. So dogs are not cookie cutters. Each dog's individually different. I, that's one of the things that I've picked up from my Kenai, my law enforcement side, that I've learned that I have got to have a really big tool belt to work all the dogs that I see.
Because each dog has got a quirk or a habit or a style that you've got to understand how to get the most outta him. What takes, what it takes to get the most outta him and that I'm with you. And you talked to a bunch of people and the problem that I'm having today is the same problem that you had last month.
And it all ties together. Just talking to different people. Is it, there's a whole lot of similarities in the dog world in general. It is. Dog train is dog trained and I've said that before. If you understand behaviors drives you can take a coon dog, you can take a bear dog, a cat dog. A [00:50:00] squirrel dog.
A bird dog, right? We can take any kind of dog as long as we understand behaviors and drives and what work, what makes that dog tick. Correct. And sometimes I don't think that people want to understand or wanna learn that part of it, because that does take a little time and effort. But that's what makes, that's what makes an average dog a super dog, is knowing those things.
Right? And how many people, how many perfect dogs have you ever seen? None. Exactly. I thought I've owned them a couple times and Right. And people, I know people that think these things are robots and they're push button robots. And they're animals. And they're animals, they're gonna mess up.
They're gonna make mistakes just as you and I do. So they have a mind of their own. They do. I'll give you a quick example. Maddy had a horse show last weekend. You're into horses. You and I [00:51:00] rode horses together too. Yeah, we did. We used to go up and camp and Yep, we did.
Slept on the air mattress in the top of your gooseneck. Yep. Oh Lord. Upgraded a little bit. I don't, he's got a real mattress and not a air mattress. Yeah. I don't know if I wanna sleep in that week though. I'll take the cot. I do have an air conditioner. But I, you get a prime example. Last weekend, Matt had a horse show.
Horse has been looking fantastic at the barn during her lessons. She's picking up some things that he was weak on last year. Cantering in the reverse gate has been a problem. He was always breaking canner, so she had him like, clicking. So last week we go to a horse show the weather, and everybody fools with animals.
No weather affects things that the wind was blowing. It was overcast. Just some things that was just quirky. The wind was blowing. There was a piece of tin on the announcer's booth. It was pop, which shouldn't make a big difference, right? The horse looked like a [00:52:00] fool. He, she did good on the reverse canner.
That was probably her best reverse canner that she'd had. But all the other times she had a hard time getting him into the can. She had a hard time setting him up. He was wanting to get into rail. She was trying to keep him off. Just stuff that normally, is it saddle brand? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So she gets all, she gets out of a ride, we're putting the horse up, and she looks at me and I can just see the defeat in her.
I can see the tears almost coming. And I'm like, honey, it's okay. It's an animal, that's right. It's, you're gonna have good days and bad days and you've gotta learn to accept the good, the bad days. And that makes the better days so much better. And dogs are the same way. You, we Murphy's law, you say they won't and they will.
And you say they will and they won't. They make a liar out of you right now. And one thing that I've learned with my canine guys is we ain't making excuses. The dog did this because he is a dog. Yes. I spend time with him. I put in hours and hours of training. I expect my to dog to perform at this level, but today he [00:53:00] did not.
And I think it's in any arena that has animals involved. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But I'm, we're gonna wrap this up, but I'm gonna tell you guys a quick story. We just we just freelancing this today. But, I was gonna do a real. A short video on this last week, and I didn't I got called up and it was over before I did it, and I was like, ah, but I wanted to talk about this because I've had actually had two, a text message and a phone call about environments and the el how the elements affect trailing.
So a couple weeks ago I was in North Carolina, and of course, it's a little bit more, it's a little more, the temperature's a little hotter there and the humidity is definitely a little bit better. And I know that Jeff Shetler and I talked about humidity and we both agreed on some things and then, I'm still un, I'm unsure.
Like I can't put a good [00:54:00] educated. Opinion with it because I get so many variables with humidity. So just putting that out there. So we were in North Carolina. We had treed a bear early that morning and we decided that we were just gonna take the pups. And when I say the pups, the year old dogs, BB and I decided we're just gonna take the pups and we're gonna go check this other spot.
We know for a fact that the bear was there like at five, I think it was five 40. And we were there it was before eight o'clock. So it was, yeah, it was about 15 to eight. So two hours. Two hours. So we take our young dogs out and we walk down this path where we know that it had been through there and we get nothing.
Nada. Dogs act like they just out for a stroll, right? So I immediately get on my phone and I pull up the weather conditions. So the humidity was 96% and the [00:55:00] weather was 73 degrees. So it was getting warm. The sun had not hit completely overhead yet, which, we know the UV rays evaporate. The odor.
But 70 it was 72, 73 degrees humidity, 96%. And our dogs acted like there was no track there. And why I tell you this is most people would have absolutely come unglued if they knew a bear was standing there two hours ago and their dogs couldn't take the track. Now, am I happy about the situation? Nope.
I want my dogs to be able to do that, and I expect my dogs to do that. But I also understand how weather and elements play into effect. Like I said, when I realized the dogs were not giving me behavioral changes and they was not gonna take the track, I immediately got on my phone and I wanted to know what the weather conditions are.
And I actually went back and wrote 'em in a little note in my truck, this and this. So anyway, a friend of [00:56:00] mine had text me down a couple days ago and basically he was asking me pretty much the same question about humidity, what happened? And he told me that they had seen a bear within a two hour, two hour time span, crossing the driveway.
They went back, put the dogs on it, and the dogs run around, act like fools couldn't do nothing with it. And I know there's some people out there saying, my dog better take that track. But if the dog can't smell it and can't figure that footprint out, then they, there's nothing they can do about.
Lemme ask you, what about a more experienced dog. As much as I would like to have done that I, me and BB had that conversation, like we feel like they would've probably worked, they would've made a bigger the circle and hunted a little bit out, hunted a little bit further. And the rest of the week we were tapping on those hour to hour and a half old tracks and the old [00:57:00] dogs were struggling.
Huh. But they got 'em up, right? They got 'em up and got 'em moving. We treat, we treat bear. But it was not who Raider Rail. I'm outta here. It did not happen. So I just, kind of food for thought about, about stuff like that. Don't get discouraged, don't get down. Try to be more understanding.
I. Yes. We all want dogs that can take 20, 20 hour old tracks no matter what cl climate they're in and everything. Absolutely. I want a dog that takes a track as it comes, and what I mean is if that track come through here at 12 o'clock last night, I want him to take it. If that cl track come through here at six o'clock this morning, I want him to take it.
But reality is that I know that I don't have that, I don't right now. I do not have that. Did you hunt with ring much? Yes. Not a lot, but some. And, ring was one of my better track dogs, and he would take an old track and run it and people would pack dogs and they'd come back and a lot of people thought he was running junk and he'd come up.
He'd come out with a barrel on the other end, but he was one of the dogs that, that [00:58:00] could do that. And I, like I said bell was another dog that could flat trail. Clyde has had the Clyde, which was the blue male, had better nose than any dog I've ever owned. He could get down and Grub an old track up and he caught a lot of bear in her bed because he could trail so well.
But anyway, I just threw that out there, that, that was some of the elements. I wanted to do something and put it out there for everybody to see so they could see it. But that happened and it is, and like I said, I've had a couple people since I've been back ask me the same thing.
And I actually done a man track what's today. So Saturday we had a guy felony warrants took off running out of his house. And anyway, I put Pinot, we ended up setting up a really good perimeter, got him cornered in, had him coming up a creek and. I don't know what the temperature was Saturday.
It was warm. Warm and I was drenched. But we caught him coming up the creek. I went down over the bank. Me and [00:59:00] one of the Blacksburg guys went down over the creek to try to cut him off. He did have a knife, so I couldn't turn my dog loose. And we ended up tracking him for about 500 yards and we were pushing him so hard.
We pushed him right into the perimeter unit and they were able to take him down. But why I tell you that story is the humidity. And the humidity. I know it was above 80 per 80%. I just don't know where it was at cuz I didn't have my canine program on at the time. Cause it happened so fast. But I, on the way back to my car, my dog was literally falling over, like Pinot was getting weak in the rear end.
And he was sitting down and he was falling. So I got him down in the creek, let him cool off. I did not let him drink a bunch of water. I gave him a little bit, but I didn't let him gorge himself. I let him sit in the creek for a few minutes. Cool, cool. His feet and stuff off. Put him in the car. I started home with him, he started falling over and I'm like, crap.
Like I've cause this dog to have a heat stroke and got him home and got some Gatorade, got some electrolytes in him. I did not feed him until [01:00:00] three, three hours, three hour, four hours later. But just to tell you that humidity works on a dog. Definitely just like it does. You and I mean it's, yeah.
You and I are able to sweat. Dog can't pants. Correct. And, but yeah, so humidity works on a dog in multiple ways and it messes with your track more than you think. But anyway, just to throw some things out there what do you think about the weather for the bird stuff? Because I don't know much about you're doing more air centering.
I'm doing more air centering and not tracking. And we talked about it earlier as far as the dog with his nose on the ground versus the dog with his head. Up. I the dog needs to be wide open and driving the Ferrari on the dirt road with his head up. Not tracking.
But yes. Weather definitely, please. Just that, these dogs that I'm messing with, they are, they're very athletic. I ask 'em for an hour as hard as they can go, and that's fast. And about 15 miles an hour, 14, 15 miles an hour. For an hour. For an [01:01:00] hour. And then put 'em up and they're done for the day. And so the, putting your nose on the ground doesn't, it just doesn't work.
Yeah. Yeah. For you guys. And is that to get to the bird faster and get on the point or It's, yeah. It's speed and you're looking for the, you're looking for an extreme athlete that, that. It's fast, it's fancy and points birds. And the more ground they cover the better those chances are.
Now, I'm gonna tell you, they going that fast and hard. They sometimes will run over a bird, but when you say run over, does that mean flushing or just missing? Yeah, just flushing. Flushing. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, that comes with time and age. Yeah. Figure that out. Yeah. And I think, just what you're saying, going back, you're saying with age, if we'd have put the older dogs down, maybe we should have, maybe next time I will, just to see if there's, that it's an aged, inexperienced difference.
That would be my question. Yeah. And we ended up going [01:02:00] and helping Doug Doug had called and he needed some help, so we literally just grabbed him up and went on. We didn't spend no time, but, next time I think just for. To, for knowledge, just to do it. Yeah. It'd be cool to see.
Yeah. DB's midnight dog man. She worked two tracks out two hard tracks out. Took her a while to do both of them, but she worked them things out and got 'em jumped, so yeah, I that's, yeah I, we do that next time, just to see. Yep. Just outta curiosity.
Yep. Chad, I really appreciate you coming back over and thanks for having me. I don't, not that I don't see you all the time, but sitting down and talking about some good times, like I forgot all about you tying it deer up yeah, that's funny. That cracks me up. I was thinking about that the other day when I was mowing up.
You started laughing. Yeah. Boy, we rodeo and you got a bunch of country guys coming after you. You ain't, that's what I told that guy. When he run the other day he popped up underneath the guardrail and they stuck a shotgun in his face [01:03:00] and he is boy, you are good. And I looked, we looked they looked at him and said, yeah, when you've running for a bunch of country boys, you ain't getting away.
So play stupid games. Win stupid prizes. Yeah, that's for sure. He had a pair of foil drive Crocs on too, man. He always stayed the territory he went through. I c Crocs are a lot better than I give him credit for, but Chad, I appreciate it. Like I said you were my first record a year ago, so we're back at that time.
And I just wanna thank everybody for listening. Taking the time to tune in and join us on our journey because, this is still a journey for me. I'm still learning. It's still a process, every day's different, every dog's different and I'm trying to gain as much knowledge as I can.
And one thing about me, if you haven't figured it out, is I like to share what I know because, me keeping all that knowledge to myself is not helping anybody else. And not that I have it, but I've been blessed with so many people around me that have got 10 times [01:04:00] more knowledge than me.
You look back over the year, the people that we've interviewed we will start with, Bart Rogers with Auburn University and Dr. Nathan Hall with Texas Tech and Cameron Ford with Ford Kine and Jeff Shetler with Georgia Canine and Terry Jerry Bradshaw. And, the list goes on and on.
These guys are premier trainers in their field, like they are sought after from people all over the country and internationally. And ju because I've been lucky enough to make a relationship with them makes me stronger. Because of their knowledge, not because of my knowledge, because what I'm learning from them and learn to take in from them.
And, these guys have been so good to me. I can text them or drop an email or a phone call to them and ask them questions and they mentor me whether they know it or not. And I want to share all that information with you guys. So for the [01:05:00] people that's been a part of this podcast and listen to it, I can't thank you enough for being with us and listening to us and continuing to follow us.
So this podcast is just a shout out for all of you guys for listening. So thank you for helping me teach, train, and Learn.