Hair vs Hare: The Afghan Hound

Show Notes

It is no secret that Seth and Chad love a great Hare course and in turn love to meet great folks who represent our lifestyle to a high level in interesting ways. Welcome to the stage, Mr. Ernest Abresch. Ernest has run different breeds over his long tenure of coursing but has focused on a breed that is little represented in American coursing; the Afghan Hound. Ernest keeps it fun, interesting, and entertaining as he tells us about this beautiful and very ancient hunting dog and how they are being used in the desert southwest of modern America. Get ready folks, this episode is off and running at full steam!

Show Transcript

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We all have that one special dog hanging out on the porch. He's just a little bit of this and a little bit of that. All these things you like coming together to make one superb dog. That was exactly what we had in mind when we made this show. Welcome to All Mixed Up.[00:03:00]

I think this is one of the first all mixed up episodes, Chad, that we recorded the pre-roll right after we recorded that show. Let's not godstone make this a habit. It's almost too efficient. It's too Too professional. I don't know if, I don't know if that's our style. We just had an awesome talk.

We were gonna split up the, all mixed up into two different segments and we were like, Nope, we're gonna run this one as its own segment. Ernest was a awesome guest and I really enjoyed talking to him about his dogs. I would say probably one of the most honest guys I've heard talk about is dogs before.

Which I hugely value now. Yeah. I always, what are your dog's weaknesses? Oh, they're not. Sometimes they're, if you don't want a dog that's the best, my dogs aren't for you. Cause they're shut up. But Ernest was real, like super real.

This is what they're good at. This is what they're, this is some of their weaknesses. Like just, that was refreshing. It was, that's a [00:04:00] great way to put it. That was refreshing. And I also just love, so stay everybody this month's episode of All mixed up is gonna be about Afghan hounds, about side hounds.

So my side hound hunters we all know that this is a breed that's definitely out on the fringe of the commonplace of a, of our hair coursing dog in America. And I had met Ernest out in the field. He's a cool guy. I knew I wanted to have him on the show and he is doing his best to breed great Afghan hounds for coursing hairs.

And I just wanted to pick his brain. He is got a lot of experience and indeed it was a brain to pick. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting to hear his perspective. And I also love, he started in Panama and the young mind I love how he was just like, you know what, we're gonna try to just catch anything with them and let's just see what they can do.

And they made do with what they had and I really thought that was awesome. It's how I started, so it was, it's fun fast dog, right? Yeah. Copy barrels. Go for [00:05:00] it, man. Like it's a rot lier with beaver teeth, man. That's right. Swims water like a hippo it's like a hippo rat.

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, so I just I'm still processing it all. It was there was just so much good stuff in there. And it's interesting how, and this is just a give some food for thought as you're about to roll into the episode, you guys, these are very primitive dogs.

Not the Afghan hound, sight hounds in general, even the more refined ones, they're still hunting, living and acting in a way that's very old, very primitive. And this dog, especially these country of origin dogs, they're very old school. And so just have a listen to how Ernest talks about these dogs and how this form to function has served our ancestors for millennia and how we're bringing it into the modern world.

I think that's a, an interesting, yeah, it's an [00:06:00] interesting thought and it is a popular thing in the side hound community. Yeah. Yeah. Something like when he and he went into the I don't wanna give it away. Ah, we'll go. That's a good pre-roll, right? We want to talk about it. So I say this, let's just roll right into it and we'll talk about it after the listeners have listened to it.

Let's do it. Yep. Here we go. I wanna know when that turning point in my life was that I started drinking seltzer water. I used to think they were so disgusting. And then one day I drank a LaCroix Lara, whatever, however you wanna pronounce it, and it was good. And now I drink them all the time. And I just, when did that, what happened?

What happened? Did you have anything? Did you drink any battery acid and just kill your face buds entirely? I think I started to see my longhouse growing and I was like, I need to switch away from soda and [00:07:00] increase my sparkling water intake. Yeah, we got a great guest you guys today. As you guys know I had done some of my first naka events this spring, or I'm sorry, this yeah, I guess spring and winter this cosing season with my two Saluki strider and comment.

And while I was out there, I met a great cast of characters and met some really good people. One of them is here with us today. Ernest, if you wanna introduce yourself, brother, tell us a little about yourself and what you like to do with dogs. My name is Ernest Arush and I was born in. In Panama to a military family, and might as well tell you how it started.

So while I was there, I got to meet Michael. Oh. His father was a colonel in the Air Force then, and

he happened to have [00:08:00] an AF candidate. His brother brought over from Florida. He was kicked out of Florida for, I dubious things. But he brought this AF can down. And I happened to get, I happened to have gotten a puppy great name and he had this German Shepherd that he had bought from Germany and we had this Afghan.

So we had this idea that we were gonna go up into this mount it's a small mountain, it was called SOA Hill. And we were gonna hunt the great CAPAs. And so we figured, yeah so you figured, we figured, the Afghan named Mishk would chase it down. Saber being the intelligent one would, hedge it and my puppy, great thing.

We don't know what she was gonna do. So we went out into the mountains and we were looking for them and we saw a couple of them and we chased them and nothing happened. We didn't catch anything, [00:09:00] but I was mesmerized by this dog, cuz I've never seen an Afghan before. Graduated from school, joined the army,

then I happened to get hurt and I was sent to Walter Reed Hospital and it just ha happens that Michael was living near Walter Reed and he had Afghans He introduced me to this great breeder named Wally today and I said, maybe I should get an Afghan. So I went to meet this guy, he was a no nonsense type of guy, saw his dogs and they were amazing.

If you know anything about, the old kennel, he had shek, was well known really nice dogs. And he invited me to dinner cuz he was s seing me up and he said, an Afghan would be a good thing to have for you to recuperate in Panama. Cause I didn't mention it, but I got hurt in the Army and I was in the hospital for almost a [00:10:00] year.

So I got to Panama and my Afghan came, his name was Fleetwood. That's a good name actually. Yeah. And I went to a couple of shows but I never was really prepared cuz I was doing different things with him. But I. I took him out different places. He was an interesting boy too. Junior quiet. So one of the, so he would get, he would jump this little fence I had and he would be taken off down this railroad track.

He always went the same way. And my friends, so when you live in the canal zone, everybody knows everybody and he'd always be br, somebody would always be bringing them back. Generally the like the police. He goes, Ernie Fleetwood was going down the railroad track with a pack of dogs after him. So that was Fleetwood.

And Fleetwood passed away. But before, you know how I [00:11:00] realized how much I love this dog. So I know this is not very nice, but I was dating this girl and I took her to the mountains and we rented this cabin and He was, I think Fleetwood was like, I'm 10 months old and he fell in this Raging Creek and my girlfriend at that time, she jumped in and got 'em out, and she was coming out, they were shivering.

Water was really cold, so I got a bunch of towels and who do I start cleaning first and dried 'em out? Not the girl.

Hey lemme, how old were you when you guys started to try to cap Barra Hunt? And I just wanna let everyone know, a Cap Barra is the world's largest rodent, and a full grown one can weigh up to a hundred pounds. This is a big animal with like, how old were you?

Maybe? I was a junior in high school, so maybe 17 [00:12:00] or 18. I think about it no, I was 17 years old, I believe. That does sound like something high schoolers would come up with, Hey guys, I got these three dogs. I got a German Shepherd, a great Dane, and an Afghan, let's go try to catch giant water rats.

Yeah. Did they ever make contact with the cavi bar or no? Oh, so we were in the jungle, so if you don't know about, the rainforest of Panama, how it could be and we just hear crashing and, dogs barking and yelling and you really can't see, you can't see anything. But we know they didn't catch anything because they came back and they were not bloodied or anything.

But, I think for us at that time, I don't know if we had expectations of catching anything. Yeah. It was just awesome. Yeah, it was, it's yeah, that's what we do. And it was the chase, and hearing the noise and everything but. So when I moved back to when I moved, so [00:13:00] when I moved back and it's really funny because Michael he was always at a place where I would miss him.

I moved to Phil, I moved to Colorado and he had just left Colorado. So I, I get to California and I move into Santa Barbara. I had surfer friends of mine and I went there and I call his mom and he goes, oh yeah, he lives up in the, on Canto Hill. So I call him tutor form. You don't pay her phone bills. So I went up there, I walked up, I hiked up about two miles, and he had Afghans and he had these Afghans that he had gotten from Colonel today.

Years ago, and Michael had done all kinds of things with the Afghan. So I got an Afghan from Wally today we got an Afghan. And so I tried showing, but the [00:14:00] universe intervened because I was too poor to afford the entry fees and I wasn't gonna mess around with shampoo products. What are you talking about, Ernest?

You're beautiful. I can tell you. Use head and shoulders, bro. Yeah we had gone to this show, I remember we went to this show in Santa Maria, and we had camped out at Morrow Bay and I remember that everybody was complaining and saying, The dogs are scratching. They got fleas or something. We brought, I think it was us to brought fleas, but we go in the ring and we go into this ring with one of the Afghans and we were getting ready to leave and these ladies said, where are you guys going?

You won this class or we don't know what the heck we won. But we go in and we won. We got a point. I don't know what that means at that time, but just before we leave these gals say can we talk to you about pin brushes and shampoo? [00:15:00] And what we had been doing is we had been in the mountains.

We ran for any, for everything. We would go to river beds, we would go everywhere, chasing things, and in the process, I think I might have mentioned to you that we jumped or heard of pigtails even pigtails. Pigs. Pigs. Oh dang. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Yeah, we did. And where was this?

Where was this? This was in Lake Cachuma area. Oh dang. Okay. And those Padres around the Santa Barbara area, and they were game, the problem was, but they were smart too. I remember they attacked this big one. This is like a 400 pounder. It was big cuz it had hooks and everything on it. And this pig just flung them like it was nothing.

But they were smart and so they started going after the piglets. Oh yeah. Good eaten. Anyway. Yeah. We realized at that time that they were [00:16:00] not the dogs to hunt pigs with. Yeah. As it turns out. Michael, I don't, you haven't met Michael, but maybe you did Michael. From maybe that inspired him, but later on in his life, he he got Cata Hulas.

He went to Louisiana and he got plots and he was working for the National Conservancy and he was Honey Pigs and Catalina, oh, wow. Yeah. That Catalina. Yeah, he pig honey. He was pretty famous actually. He went there and I think if you weren't there and you saw some of the Cata Hulas, those were the Cata Hulas that he left.

Because I remember the National Conservancy gave him a ton of money and he went to Louisiana and brought these dogs back. And so I think he left the dogs after he left working there for a while. But, we came to the realization that, yeah, these Afghan, these Afghans, although they were in the head they're pretty ferocious.

They're pretty tough, but that depends on the lines, of course, that you get. But [00:17:00] we realize that. It was much too dangerous. These guys, they don't have the firepower. They're quick, but it, I didn't wanna do it anymore because I loved my dogs. I've always, A pig is not a hair. Yeah. It's not it really isn't, oh, I guess a hair is not a pig, I guess is how I should have worded that. Yeah. And without, without having the, I'm sure you didn't have options for cut gear at the time and vests and cause I'm sure they could catch 'em and probably put teeth on too. They may not be the breed to, to hang from a large animal and try and control the head. But without cut gear and only oh how many did you have? Only one Afghan at the time? Oh, no. At that time we had a pack. I think we had. I think we had four. Okay. Or in a token grey. In a token Greyhound.

Yeah. They'd find their way in there. Greyhound. Greyhound. There's always a token Greyhound in there somewhere, and that's great. I love that. And then we would, heck, we would go all over the place. We would go to [00:18:00] Panama Valley, we would go to Lancaster in those areas to run the Afghans with Always.

With one Afghan. With one Greyhound or Greyhound. She never had any help. It was like the Afghans would take left and right turns to try and catch the hair, but they couldn't. And so I, getting to this point, cuz it's really important. So I always knew that original Afghans were great hunters because the stories that I had read and eventually after talking with people in Pakistan and Afghanistan, They would tell you that these guys were very swift and in many cases as swift as a saluki.

And so we looked for the best Afghans in the country, but there were, we hit like a wall. They could only do so much. The dogs that we had in those days through various breedings, we upgraded, but we only got to a certain point. [00:19:00] And what you need, of course, to run a hair is you need speed and you need the ability to sustain it.

And so now these guys, we would always say, oh yeah, they can run in three ge. They have three gears, but that was it. And so sometimes they would get lucky if they're running with a faster dog and they hung in there. But I think we recognized that the Afghan in the United States.

Through its breeding practices and the things that people wanted to use 'em, which was show they had bred out a lot of the athletic abilities. And what year was this? Oh, it's a good question. I knew you were gonna ask me that. I'm thinking

in the nineties. Okay. So when I was a we boy. [00:20:00] Yeah. And so we were run. I remember, so I meet this gal in Chicago, beautiful gal, and I convince her I don't know how to move to California with me. And I moved into this place called Merced, which is loaded with rabbits in alfalfa. But we lived in this little dumpy house, I can't believe it.

She moved there and I was run and I was running my Afghans there. And I used to go to dog shows a lot because I like dog shows. I like dogs. And I met this weightlifter from Holland and he was telling me ab Barra racing Afghans in Europe and he wanted to see my Afghans run. And so he came to see him and he goes, he was impressed that they came back, that

you're laughing so much. Who's impressed that they came back? Oh, that's very nice that they come back. But they are [00:21:00] slow, and then, further research the racing Afghans in Europe, they resemble more. Of the country of origin, Afghans, because in they selected for athletic abilities. Yeah.

Like racing greyhounds. And that's one of the things that's kept the greyhounds such a potent hair, coring dog is the injection of track dogs into lineages of greyhounds. And so he promised us, to keep in touch with us and eventually we had, we got this dog from him with this female, and we bred it to our stock that we had, our boys that we had.

I remember we bred to two different boys. And the differences, it was night and day because now we could go into Merced and hunt with people. Now we weren't beating Saluki or Greyhounds or Whippets because in those days, Merced, those dogs were. [00:22:00] They were just great dogs. Those, these guys that are running in Merced on naka, on hairs, they had been doing this for years.

Lot Merced is like the cradle of a lot of coursing culture in western America. It is, right? Yeah. Of everything too. I used to run into, half and halves long dogs, you name it. They were always hunting in that area. And but these Afghans were capable now of hanging in there and they caught rabbits, but I gotta confess, they caught rabbits up in Northern California where their rabbits were a little slower, but still they were turning them and working them, and you were asking about funny, so you were asking me about a funny story too. I remember you asked that, so I gotta put that in there. So at that time too while I was running Afghans, I also ran bozos. I attract. I got attracted to bozos because my late wife loved bozos. So we had bozos, we had this [00:23:00] pair, these two dudes, they were amazing dogs.

One of 'em can pick 'em up on the runs. He was amazing. Boy. He could run 'em down and if he could catch it with four, he'd catch 'em within. In four or five turns, he'd catch 'em and pick 'em up. He just had a great mouth, which is very unusual. Everybody thinks that because you have a sight hound.

They have great mouths, but they don't, A lot of 'em are very fast. And they turn and then they turn and they can't pick up the hair. Everybody just assume, oh yeah, they'll catch him. No, not necessarily. But this one guy could catch him. The other one, Victor, he was a little bit slower. He was really bright.

So one day we go into this hunting field. We get off of our trucks and we see this three-legged stiff rabbit. They see it. So we walk into the field coursing. We might've gone in about a mile or [00:24:00] so, and he's on the line. Rabbit breaks to the left, he goes on it, then he loses, and then he turns to the right and I'm thinking, what the heck is he doing?

And I could see the judge, cuz he's up real close to us on top of a truck and he is laughing. And here comes Victor back. He's got the three-legged rabbit.

What is so funny though, after this is like, The judge gives him a kill credit. And I'm saying, we're catching a three-legged rabbit. What the heck? And he goes he remembered where this rabbit was. And I go that's not how it works. But he goes, he brings back the stiff, the same rabbit. That was Victor.

He eventually got his rabbit cuz he got one in the dish. He dug one out of the ditch and ran into the ditch and he dug it out of the hole and he got his kill credit. But [00:25:00] those bozo, that, those were the bozo. Cuz I had mentioned to you earlier that, you know what I love the bozo.

Very different. But we won't go into details of why they have,

I think through some of the breeding practices that they have digress. So they're not what they used to be. I wanted to ask you if you had dipped into any country of origin blood with your Afghans, and if you could give a very Oh yes. Good question. Because there's a lot of that country of origin stuff with Saluki, yes. And there's a lot of good blood overseas that can be injected into these dogs. And I also wanted to say that there's some really nice lines of saluki in America that have European racing blood injected into them as well. I have one at my house, and that sucker can fly. Like he, he's really fast and he's built a lot differently.

Yeah. If you could just explain that country of origin, Afghan build, and what [00:26:00] you think it injects into these American lines. I think mostly, I would say it injects in the European racing lines, because here we have European dogs that are related to country and origin with a little dash of.

Some German dogs call V D O M. So these guys from Europe, these racing dogs, they resemble a lot of the country of origin dogs. But I always felt that the country of origin dogs would even be better because there are shortcomings on the racing. I felt on the racing dogs. Like what? I didn't like their small feet.

And also, coursing, as you well know, it's the ability to su sustain form. And these afghans, these racing Afghans. I still have the 12 year old. That guy that's looking at me across who he's killed over a dozen rabbits now. He was fast but [00:27:00] you could see it where he would hit the mile marker where he would start losing for.

But he'd hang in there with Saluki in different breeds cuz he knew he could do it. So he caught rabbits. I always tell a lot of this to people that go, yeah, you can have a really athletic dog, but there are some dogs that are even slower. A little slower, but they just seem to hang in there and hang in there.

And then when the time comes in, boom, they swoop in for the kill and they don't forgive. And that was this Afghan, he could do that, but I always felt that there were even better afghans in country of origin. So I always, I made friends from all over the world. I made friends from Pakistan and Afghanistan, so I got to be friends with this guy from Pakistan who he was well to do banker and he wanted to save the [00:28:00] breed.

But we got to be good friends. He had brought Afghans into Europe with this lady in Switzerland who called them , and she refused to be part of the community because they accused her that the dogs were not Afghan. Things don't change, in Europe it's really bad, country of origin. Dogs are frowned upon them.

They're not real, they're not the real thing, but that's a different story. So I stayed in contact with him and one day he said, I have an Afghan for you, and you, I don't think you've ever seen Kabul, but I got an Afghan from Afghanistan and he's long back, got good Feet,

likes to sleep in the couch. So I don't know if he was really a ferocious dog, like they claim he was, but. We used them. We saw, we used them recently, and we got some, [00:29:00] I'm telling you, we got some phenomenal dogs. I don't say this, I don't like to say what my dogs are gonna be like because you never know until you see them what they're doing.

You can think, you know that this is what they're gonna be like, but until they actually get out there and run, you don't know really what they're gonna do. But this is the first time where I'm gonna say these dogs, and they're just five months old now. But these dogs are already they're just doing things that I have never, ever seen Afghans do before because, so it's hard to explain, but when you see a hunting dog, and you probably know when you see a hunting dog, there's.

Quick reflexes, eye coordination. There's different things that they're doing that are different than non-hunting dogs. It's like they're aware of their environment. They're sharper y Okay. [00:30:00] Yes, they're sharper. Yes. And these guys exhibit all these kind of things. It's yeah. We talk about eye coordination and everything in eyesight.

I always tell people that said, just because you're a sight hound doesn't mean that you see things. Yeah, true. Just see things better than other side hounds. Sight hound that smell things and see that are, that make no mistake when they're cosy, you know that there's some dogs that people say, oh, he's lucky.

It's lucky. And I go, no, they don't. It's not luck. It's like they're doing things, they're reading rabbits. They see things. They know where to move. They know where to go. Better than others. I can't explain it. I just No, it's true. I think that's brains and that's something that you really can breed for.

But I also think brains comes with a lot, just putting a lot of hairs in front of them. The ones that get hunted the most will typically be good dogs if they have the genetics. To be a good runner. And I really liked what you said earlier, and it's something that kind of resonated with me when I [00:31:00] first started doing this from some older experienced corers, like Dean Bohannon, he really drilled this into my head.

He said, Seth, not all side hounds have good mouths. He's there's a lot of dogs that will run beside a rabbit, run along with a rabbit. They're just chasing a rabbit cuz they want to chase a rabbit. He's You need to never breed a dog that won't pick a rabbit up. He's mouth is important.

And so like when you said that too, I was like, yeah I mean I think that's a true, honest assessment that just cuz it's a sight hound, that doesn't mean it wants to gobble up a hair, yes. And you know what I found out about these racing Afghans is that, They're very intense. It's interesting I wrote about this before that it's ironic that in a country where hunting you're, you cannot hunt in Europe.

Maybe you can in Hungary, I think they are starting to open it up for the Hungarian Greyhounds, but every other part of Europe, you can't legally hunt anymore. They banded. So in an area where hunting is [00:32:00] not allowed and only racing, they somehow managed to preserve those hunting qualities because all these racing dogs that we have, that we, eventually we started breeding from the two that we brought over from Europe.

They're all intense. They're intense, and they'll run and run and they run to kill, It's like, how intense are they? It's I just had an incident recently where a bull snake got into my property and they were trying to kill the darn thing. That's why I'm going to snake aversion classes.

You're lucky it wasn't a Rattler. You had different story Was lucky because it is not a Rattler because a rattler will not give you second chances, yes. You can't bluff with them. They're just gonna boo. So I managed to get 'em away because I enticed them with meat. So they different kinda meat.

Yeah. [00:33:00] And I do you think brought him into the, oh, sorry. Go ahead brother. I totally brought him into, I brought the house and, and I relocated the bull snake, but this is the kind of thing they do, they'll go and chase after anything. And, That's that intense quality that's somehow racing preserved and it's that gameness, to chase a lure with everything you've got, or game, whatever you Yeah.

It's like a greyhound because greyhounds were bred for chasing, they're supreme chasers, but at the same time, you know that you gotta be careful with them because they'll run themself into the ground. Absolutely. They're, that is what I was gonna say. It's interesting, it's a double-edged sword with that extreme gameness because hot track dogs, greyhounds, hot bloods is what they're called in those coursing community. Everyone is that, a hot blood will literally run itself to death. They are so intense. And it's interesting that you say about how the racing Afghans have that tiny kind of cat-like foot.

I [00:34:00] wondered if when you're breeding these track afghans, they start to convergently evolve, if you will, towards that body form that track greyhounds have and the weaknesses that track greyhounds have, which is terrible feet, not very good soundness in exchange for that intensity and speed.

You can have tiny feet when you're running on a manicured track. Exactly. You don't need to. And those tiny feet are, yeah. Good. I think that's a good point because maybe perhaps, big feet and big pause I think is not what you really want for super speed. If you're running track, that's not what you want.

And so maybe the early Afghans they started with, I suspect they were because. But then, I think about it because the Afghans, so how the Afghans in Europe got really fast is they brought a couple of Afghans from Afghanistan. Now the Europeans a lot of 'em traveled to Afghanistan [00:35:00] and a lot of 'em brought Afghans from Afghanistan.

They, many of 'em, especially the Dutch, they were always in Afghanistan, so they were bringing back Afghans. But it's, I nev, I will have to ask into this because all the racing Afghans in Europe have small speed. However, with the small feed in my Afghans, I've never had toe issues or anything.

And I think one of the reasons is, and I was ta and I was thinking this about my bozo, cuz not all bozos can run in this harsh terrain. And one of the things that I think what I accidentally stumble upon is that, If you train your dogs as little puppies to run in a certain type of terrain, their feet does help independents and everything adapts to that terrain.

Yeah, I agree with that. I do, to a limit. I feel like even though I've raised my greyhounds in this Rocky Hill country in southern New Mexico, they can only do so much, they're still 80% [00:36:00] Greyhound, so I need to be very careful with their feet. And I'm never, I know you live in the southwest and down here it's pretty rugged.

The, even the prairies that are in Southern New Mexico, they're full of cactuses and rocks and holes and stuff. Yeah. So I was gonna ask you, what the, what your current bloodlines are and what you think their strengths and weaknesses are out here on, on real desert hairs. In real desert grassland.

It's funny that you asked that because I was talking to some lady that wants to go out, honey, and I was saying New Mexico is the perfect. Grounds for Afghans, because Afghans in many ways they have just enough speed. They should have endurance, but they're like Jeeps. And which makes sense because the terrains in Afghanistan are very similar to the terrains in New Mexico.

So you select the specific dogs to run over rough terrain. So yeah. You don't wanna run a Greyhound, like you said, they're wonderful to see [00:37:00] on a jack. Yeah, they're, but they break down. Yeah. Yeah. Like nothing beats that. But come on. You run in New Mexico eventually, they're just not gonna, that's why you really should have a Gogo.

That's why I have Saluki. Yeah. Or Saluki, because Yeah, solu, I always tell everybody, I go the Saluki are the kings of coursing. In New Mexico for our breeds. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yep. Yeah, of course for terrain. But I, yeah, but I'll tell you, so I think I'm gonna be going on the line here, but I think that these Afghans that we have bred to our af Afghani Afghan dog, I was talking to your friend and our friend Sheri earlier, and I go, these guys are gonna challenge Saluki and it, they're gonna challenge good Saluki because our current Afghans can be Saluki not great.

That's why I have you on the show today, right there. They can, they could be [00:38:00] good salu, not great Saluki, but these puppies that are coming out I wish I could ch I'll send you pictures of them. We'll run together this fall. I.

They'll, I said they'll beat good saluki, but I Great. I don't care what you breed with these Afghans, you can't beat great Saluki. Great Saluki are just, oh my God. They're just, I don't know, they're running a mile, they're running two miles and they're just warming up. Nope. They're just getting warmed up In your country of origin, dog, you said his name was Cabo, right?

Cabo, yeah. Cabo K, yeah, Cabo. I know he's an import, so I imagine he is like crazy valuable financially and then to your project there. But have you had a chance to course him or is that's trying to catch him up just in case to get a few litters out of him first? No. The reason why I didn't do it, so when I got him, look,[00:39:00]

Hunters don't give up their best dogs. Oh yeah. They don't just give you their best dog. Yeah. So when I got this guy from Afghanistan, I knew he had his little promise. He was a little older, five years old, people aren't gonna give up their dogs. And so I got what I could get. And it was, and his journey was magical because, he came, my friend from af from Pakistan knew he knew warlords in Afghanistan.

And so he went to this tribe and he procured this dog, brought him, he came in a boot of a car because it's literally illegal to get Afghans from Afghanistan. But he got him across the border, got him into Pakistan, and he nursed him and brought 'em back to life. And it just happens that at that time, the rabies rules came in.

So he came from a, he came from he came from Pakistan. And he made it just in time that the rabies rules came in. And what was also a little bit tr [00:40:00] sad is like shortly after that his village got overrun by the Taliban. So he was like, oh man. Yeah. So he made it just in ti He made it just in time.

I'll get up and I'll show you a picture of 'em laying down so you can see him. Hang on here. This is the bonus of video folks. You'll, and they'll, it'll be seen here. This will be on the Patreon page here. Can you see him? Oh, yep, I see him. That's Kabul. He's an Afghan boy. And air. And when you, he lives in the front of, he lives in the front of the, of my house and he sleeps in the couch with me.

But the Americans do not like him. They do not, my other males do not like him. It's kind. It's Barak gonna stay over there. When you put hands to him, what like what are some of the noticeable differences with him and some of your others? Hang on.[00:41:00]

None of us know what it's like to have barking dogs. I, they don't, they'll never, these guys will never accept him. The, these guys will never accept him, which is sad, but they're, he's different. I like to say, Hey, we're Americans around here. What are you bringing these foreigners around?

They're just not accepting him. So you were asking about putting my hands on him? Yeah. When you put your hands on him, what are some of the noticeable difference? I'm just I'm always curious and none, I'm not even saying this is wrong or this is right. Or anything, but like this dog that you got from, the country of origin when you put ants to him and down his back or his shoulders, his feet maybe the coarseness of the coat. Are there any noticeable differences that's so the thing that one misunderstand about aghans from Afghanistan, there are, there's varieties. So there're different types, which makes sense cause it makes sense because, breeders will breed what is [00:42:00] successful in their region.

You, you breed what works. And so different regions have different things, different people have different tastes. What is different about him is that he's got long back. Which is good because long back is what, and with a great stride. And that's what I noticed about him. No, I didn't run him on a rabbit.

But the times that he would run, you could see the ness that he did everything. Because fast dogs are not fast dogs because they're moving their legs a mile a minute fast. Dogs is because they're covering ground in an efficient way. Long stride. They have great reach, as been mentioned.

Yeah. And. And they make it and they make it look easy. You don't see their legs moving really fast. But y how do I know this? I had two Afghans. I had the World European Racing Champion. She was the only American dog [00:43:00] at br her to go to Europe and compete in the world championship of racing in Winned was the fir only American dog ever do that.

Wow. That's honor. Yeah. That's awesome. That's really cool. Yeah, I remember, I, I remember I was, they have a, before it was like the Olympics, you went out with your flag, and I was marching with the American flag, and I remember when she was racing, everybody was saying America, usa they were all rooting for her cuz it was the first time.

And she, she won so her, this was Kepi and Kepi was a good rabbit dog too. And then she ran, I remember she ran with Junior, that 12 year old male who could catch a lot of rabbits. And I Michael would do most of the slipping, and I would always accuse him of pre slipping because Junior would always beat her.

He would always beat her. And I'm always looking for excuses. No, you can't beat the world championship dog, blah, blah, blah, [00:44:00] blah. But he would beat her. And what I finally realized about him was that junior had that intensity to catch this rabbit. He was smart dog, but he had a long, efficient stride.

And for every stride he would take, and if you add it up, let's say you add 10 strides. It makes a difference when you're running against a dog for example, kepi, because you could see that he would add a body length. Does is it make sense what I'm saying? Yeah. He's got a more efficient movement.

Tried, he would see a body length than Ethan, body length than front. And it adds up. And it adds up. And the next thing you know is like 10 body lengths in front of her, and you're saying, how is that working? It's that efficient long strike. I got two and I think that, I got two saluki that, that are very that.

So I got one from a, a great person named Carolyn Ero, and he's a [00:45:00] big, powerful long. Muscled dog and my other dog Strider that I got from Paul Dsky, he's a compact, small, tight type dog. And man comet, when he gets up and moves, he is just, his back is way more flexible and long, and that sucker covers ground.

He is fast. He's definitely one of the fastest saluki I've ever seen. And he can freaking boogie. And that's the same thing. When you slow down that footage of him running, you can just see how big and open and powerful his stride is. It's ironic that he's not named Strider. Yeah, but is that ORs?

That's ORs brother, right? Correct. Yep. There, there is a reason why also he's very good too, is because I've seen his mother run and into my eyes that is the best saluki I have seen in modern time. Wow. She ran, I saw her running against some of the best saluki. And just beat him. And the, but the thing about [00:46:00] this dog, the mother, she came from Europe.

Yeah. She's got a lot of racing blood in her. Yeah. Yes. But so you know that the reason why a lot of these European saluki are good is because they have a pipeline to Turkey and Iran. And so all these dogs are, most of them, the good ones are from Iran. Yeah. Which Strider is too as well. That's where most of his blood comes from as well.

And so that's, and these guys, they're, this, they're freakishly fast. They are fast, and they're just amazing dogs. Some of 'em, I think are, they'll hang in there with a good greyhound. And if you can, as a saluki, if you can hang in with a good greyhound.

Oh, Brandon, you better grab that rabbit quick because that Saluki is gonna go by you. It does keep going. I need to, Pronto hasn't got the memo yet. He's still leading the charge since he's a beast still. But I know what you mean. There are some fast saluki out there that Yeah I agree [00:47:00] that their quality hasn't, at least from what I am very young in this game, especially with Saluki Uhhuh.

But with people I respect immensely. People like Karen, people like Paul, that the quality of Saluki and Steve Downs too. He's talked about how the quality of Saluki in the last 30 years has improved enormously. And so that, I'm lucky to be bearing all that fruit to, to be biting into that crisp apple of good saluki.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't, sometimes I think because I've had my chances to get Saluki and I go. Why Afghans? And I think this, cuz I think you might have asked this or somebody asked me this and I go, why Afghans? I think with Afghans is, maybe it's be it, maybe it's like you fall in love with somebody and when you fall in love with somebody, it's not about looks or anything.

You just fall in love with them, which is a totally fair answer. I really love [00:48:00] that kind of honesty and an answer also. Great job bringing the conversation back, Ernest. But yeah I think that's one thing that I get the Cosing community. I have obviously enjoyed being a member of, but people get really weird into their lanes about their type that they run and they're like, oh, AIAN Hounds can't catch a one footed rabbit.

Or like, all greyhounds are terrible cuz their feet are the worst. And I'm like I don't really. I like, we can like it all, like I, I really enjoy the diversity and that's really why I wanted to have you on. When people are like, good Afghans, everyone's you should have Ernest on.

And I really wanted to represent this breed and I just love how your answers, I love them. That's why like you, you just like them. That's a great answer, yeah. And and it makes sense because, we're. We humans are attracted to different things. We like different taste and food, different taste and that, so why doesn't it make sense that we're attracted to different breeds, different things, and I think for me, that's the beauty of it all, [00:49:00] because it's not even among the Afghans, there's variety within the Afghans and that there's variety in those country of origin, Saluki, they don't all look the same, but there's saluki, if we wanna call, put a label on them.

But that's the beauty of it all. Because, I think a lot of it, why, maybe reasons why I feel this way is because I'm an army brat. My dad was in, in the Navy. And so when you're in the military base and you're going to schools there, people from all over the C world. People from everywhere.

And so you get used to seeing different types, and you appreciate it because each one always has a little story to tell. Yeah. Something to add to it, add to the big common spice. And I think that's what it is with Sighthounds, true. They all true. Add to this big commons, big common spice.

Let me ask you something I really wanna know what are your goals moving forward? Cause it sounds like you're really pushing to improve them as a serious [00:50:00] contender for a hair coring dog in the desert. What are your goals moving forward with this new litter and your goals in general with, north American coursing Afghan hounds?

I'm gonna remained and help people as much as I can, but I'll be honest with you. Because of. My body's starting to break down. I need knee surgery, I needed hip replacement. It's becoming difficult for me to walk out competitively. Now I can go off free coring on my own and I will continue to do that.

But I wanna see the Afghans get to where I believe that they are possible of, and I wanna see other people of coursing them. As for me, I'm not gonna, I'm not saying I'm giving enough coursing, but I think with me, I think I might have mentioned this before I don't know if it's appropriate.

Talk. It is appropriate to talk about it. So with me, the dogs have always been about God. I, God has given them to me. He has [00:51:00] put these guys. That's maybe, why do I have Afghans? God, maybe God said. Afghan is your breed, and Afghans have come really easy to me. I have always had great Afghans and I always had access to 'em, and I think, wow, I've been very fortunate, but I know in my mind it's because God has said, this is your breed and I'm gonna make it available for you.

So as I get a little older and I'm concentrating, as you get older, you start thinking about your immortality and you have to start thinking about not wasting time. So for me it's a, it's about not wasting time in having a deeper relationship with God. But the dogs helped me in that relationship because the dogs have taught me so much about humility, about responsibilities.

Devotion [00:52:00] because one of the things about dogs is have you noticed that they're very devoted to you no matter what you look like, no matter what you smell they don't care. True. It's a great, they're very devoted for acceptance and they have taught me that, and so will I continue to be with the Afghans and be competitive?

Yes. But the focus has shifted. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yes, sir. And I think it'll make a lot more sense to me and maybe 20, 30 years after I've been doing it. As long as you have, I'm definitely trying to put myself in your shoes, but it's tough because I've only been doing it six years and you've been doing it for 50.

It's not, I don't think it's a question of time, and I think it's just a question when the right time hits, and look, People used to say, oh, don't you celebrate New Year's Eve anymore? Don't you go out partying? And I said, are you kidding me? I did that in my twenties enough to make up several lifetimes.

It's crazy. It's like I come from that other side [00:53:00] where I, for the grace of God that I was able to do these kind of things, but I don't know how I could ever, I don't know how I could ever divorce myself of seeing a side hound on our air. It is it isn't a question about them grabbing it for me, but it's a question about the death chain.

Yep. A course is exhilarating. It's a chase. It's just, if you can't like that, I'm thinking okay, this is not for you. But it's I'm with you brother. A hundred percent and you're saying it a lot more beautifully than I do. Cuz I'm just like, oh my God. I, it's so true. There's just something about that.

It seems so silly in arbitrary because it's just a dog chasing a hair. But it's modest, it's beautiful. It's this display of extreme speed and agility and endurance and tenacity and Yes. And the desert's just such a beautiful place, oh I tell everybody, they go, oh we're thinking about going to coursing in California.

I says I lived in California for over [00:54:00] 30 years and eh, don't bother. I says, you need to come out to New Mexico. I go, because I shouldn't say this kind of stuff, but I said, but even if you don't jump a hair, you still have a good time because I. It's beautiful. It New Mexico rules. That's why it's like you're walking.

I go, yeah. You get a little tired, your bones are aching and everything, but then you look around you saw me when I was judging that hunt when you came up to me and it was like, we worked hard for those rabbits. But I, that was my first time there and I'm thinking, this is beautiful. Yeah, it was.

It was a tough day. Holy smokes. Yeah, I know. I know. We're, let's be honest about it. Yeah. It's beautiful. But you do want it to, that sucked. We do once. Yeah. We want seven hours for three hairs. It was horrible. Yeah. Yeah. I'll continue, I will continue to do that. I'll go out free coring, [00:55:00] I'll take my dogs.

Competitive wise, I don't know, maybe I'll judge more hunts because I'm beginning to, I. I I appreciate the dogs running. And any chance I can get I will judge Saluki because let me ask you a quick question. This is gonna be some bonus material. I gotta, this is a simple Seth question.

Do, are you, do you enjoy long dogs or are you a purebred kind of guy? I enjoy all types of dogs. Yeah, me too. What if you were to make a long dog with an Afghan, what do you think would be for our deserts here in Southern New Mexico, what would you breed to an Afghan? Wow. Good question. I have seen, so Michael had accidental breeding between Afghans and a world club.

Wouldn't say world, but it was a well bred it, I believe it was. Dutch Bahama, or was iti [00:56:00] one of those and he had an accidental cross between a Salian and Afghan. Ah, they were, and they were more af, they were more Greyhound type, I will tell you that. Oh, okay. So dominated. They were very good, but their temperament was really squirrely.

They were different. And I've, but then I've also seen a Greyhound and a bozo cross. How was that? He had a, that dog was a killer. Oh wow. Dang. Yeah. It was one puppy, eh? It was born in our house. And that dog, I could see what, I could see the difference of it, because it was a little, he was a slight dog, but he was difficult to deal with because he would go after other dogs too.

But, He was really intense. So the combination of a greyhound and a bozo can be very good. I was [00:57:00] thinking the greyhound to the Afghan would possibly increase that Just speed phenotype. I really, I guess it sounded like to you that, or from what I've gathered from you from, this chat and others is that the afghan was what you would think it needed was a little bit more speed.

They had good distance and good hair sense. But yeah, I was wondering like crossing it to a more high powered speed dog may increase that line speed, but then you gotta obviously weigh in those visibility. It, it has been done. So the, a lot of the Afghans and Pakistan guys are crossing with greyhounds.

Because isn't like you were racing really popular in Pakistan as well with like really high powered They like to straight dogs. Yeah, they do like to race. And I was surprised that there are a lot of greyhounds in Pakistan and they race for money. So why are they crossing to Afghans greyhounds to Afghans?

Maybe, with them is like a lot of 'em, so hunters and so maintaining breed specifics in Afghanistan and [00:58:00] Pakistan is becoming very difficult. He always are dying out. So to find, and this is what Gail Goodman told me about Saluki too. He says, you will not find saluki in Saudi Arabia that are not intermingled without saluki from all over the world.

Those days are gone to find true coo. Suzuki is nearly impossible. Yeah, that's true. The globalization is just changed everything. That's right. And the western ways have clipped then And what are the Western way? I can ride around in the Jeep. I want to have races, they'll have races of 500 yard races, and bet, with all types of breeds. So the tribal people that used to hunt in the ways of life are, they're not there anymore. There's no need to go and hunt for your dinner, now it's a sporting type of thing. Cause Cabo came from a tribal village, but.

I saw where he was living. He was living in people [00:59:00] with Jeeps and trucks, yeah. It wasn't, so it's not it's not subsistence anymore. And that's a great point. I was making that point. Chad and I were talking about this a while ago, and I've been molding this over my head now that an, and again I'm just an infant in the Saluki world, so this is just my superficial kind of view on a man that hunts his dogs a lot, is that I think Greyhounds are a superior running dog, but I really feel that Saluki are a better hunting dog, if that makes sense.

They seem to have just a better Yes. They're so much more durable. If I was in the apocalypse, I'd want Saluki, not greyhounds, because the saluki can hunt every day in like way harsher conditions, and they are not gonna kill themselves chasing an animal, which I think the Greyhound is a superior running machine.

But I just, I definitely would not want one if times were really tough, you know that, that's a good point that you bring up. I was talking with Gail once, you need to meet Gail Goodman if you haven't already, [01:00:00] cuz she wrote this beautiful Magnus opus book on Saluki and she went all over the area looking at different saluki.

But she once told me that there is a difference between a coursing saluki that nfca requires to win than a hunting saluki. And these are the, which I consider them saluki tazi, for example. They would've a hard time winning in the coursing environments that we do with points and whatever we're asking for.

But in country of origin, And what they do is, cuz I've hunted with them, they'll run a rabbit and yeah, they'll get beat by a fast saluki. Second day they might, they'll still get beat, but on the third day, that's when they start coming. They can run one [01:01:00] rabbit, two rabbits, three rabbits, and they can possibly Google for another fourth.

And they'll go on and on for days. And then Saluki start breaking down. They start breaking down. Because the saluki that we have selected in the United States, I believe personally are for comp competition. Sporting dogs. Sporting dogs. And you only need to run really two times a day so that so if you were to hold a six day event, I really believe that a tazi, Steve Bok, right? Yes, sir. The dogs that he had, those types of dogs, I call 'em what do you call, Tazi? Yeah. Those are the type of dogs that'll run six days. And so Gail would tell me that's a hunting saluki because what people would want in country of origin early on, they would want a saluki that could hunt and kill rabbits and kill rabbits and day in and [01:02:00] day out.

And they'll go out 1, 2, 3, 4 days. In Russia. What they do with the Pozo, they go to these they'll drive a thousand miles to this one area to hunt. They mainly, most of them come from Bosco. And I was surprised because they'll go for a whole month, of course running hairs and they don't go one to.

Pairs in a date, they'll hunt for the whole week on and off. Maybe they'll rest. That requires a different type of dog, that requires a dog that's durable. And I think when you think about it, that's what those long dogs remind me of being that way they can go in Digg in I've seen them where they can go one day, two days, three days.

If they don't have a big grr, of course, grr will take anything out. So there is a difference between [01:03:00] horsing and hunting. Because coursing is, I'm glad I was on a good idea. And yeah, to tie in everything we're saying here again I run side hounds, but I'm, I haven't immersed myself in it like Seth or, and nowhere close to you by any measure, but that's what I heard.

I hear you Absolut, Luke. I do it. I'm very proud of my dogs and I'm more of a generalist. I'm ju I don't ever wanna come in here and say, Hey, this is Chad Reynolds side town expert. I'm talking with two people that know that venue way more than me. But here's my thoughts on it.

Cause I've heard, greater men than me in this venue talk a bunch. And the way I've tried to consolidate it in my head is if I were, if someone were to put a metaphorical gun to my head and say, Hey, you need to catch the next jackrabbit that gets up. I would probably start looking really hard at the greyhounds, like really hard.

But if someone were to say, I need you to catch. 15 this season. Yes. With the same dog. Yes. I'm gonna stop looking at them [01:04:00] immediately and start looking at another dog and this is where I'm gonna shut up and not talk about a breed, but my eyes would be looking at a definitely a different dog.

And then something that I've really curious about when, and like that I've been trying to pick at and tease and see if you can share this with me, is I believe we're gearing leaning. I'm seeing in my short time I'm seeing that some of these different breeds are going towards more towards the side hound, like right now where results right here, short term, but they burn out. They break down, they fall apart, whereas a subsistence, a hunter that is, is feeding himself with it, isn't gonna need that. That freaking bottle rocket. That crazy. The heck with my feet, my break, my bones, I'm gonna catch it.

And they're more, I imagine if you even mention that to them, you're like, yeah, this one broke down at six years. They probably laugh and be like, why? What do you want that for? I need something that can do the same job at year one for the bulk of its [01:05:00] life. Would you feel that is like how things are going?

We're getting away from more of the durability, the soundness the efficiency, the naturally tree and getting more to the, I'm gonna catch that rabbit right now and if it destroys my body, it's gonna happen. And then they can't do the two day, the three day, the four day hunts.

Yeah, you make, I think you're very correct in this. And I think a lot of it is because I can only see it from my eyes, cuz I don't, but I do know because I have a few friends that run long dogs. And they want a dog that can run 1, 2, 3, 4. They want a dog that's durable and do that.

But since I'm inv now, I want that out of my Afghans. I want my Afghans to have more durability and I want 'em to have, the ability to run one or two or three rabbits, and not be broken down. But I think because we run organized [01:06:00] hunting we want, in order to win, we don't need a durable dog anymore.

What I tell a lot of people when I judge is that they go, what kind of dog do you need? I go you need a dog. As far as I can see with my binoculars, it give you points. That's all. You know what I mean? If it goes past that one, sorry, I'm not gonna see anything. I don't know how people see. Ooh, I could see the rabbit doing this and that.

I go, really? So literally and the way, or the way Naka has been going with coring is, and Seth saw it, is like we're finishing hunts with dogs that maybe ran a little bit longer than another dog, and we finish on prelims, and I'm afraid that we're gearing to a dog where we don't need s we don't need that sustainability, [01:07:00] the ability to run.

Often, like you had mentioned, now we need a dog that. All he needs to do is r run twice in a day. Maybe, he, his course doesn't have to go along because, and the judge doesn't see that far. Because one of the things about New Mexico is because of its terrain, you can only see so much.

That's wheels. That's what you need. Really. That's the only way. That's right. That's what you do. Oh, they're out. Hang on a second. What you do when I was thinking about it, is like when you are running your wheels on you're running, you're driving your wheels and you're watching the course, I'm thinking about it, and then I'm remembering an incident watching my Afghans run a rabbit, and I was following it on the Jeep.

I got to see things in their eyes. Yeah. It's amazing scene. It's amazing. It, I think I saw that in the photos that you took too. [01:08:00] You took some photos while you're following 'em on that. And I'm thinking, you don't see that unless you're right up there, yeah. It's, I feel very fortunate.

I can't always hunt what I say, mounted right on wheels. I can't always hunt that way. But when I have the places that are available to me to use that vehicle, that's where we tend to flock to, because to me, I can analyze those dogs start to finish every single time. Yes. And I have a really dense library of data about how my dogs run as individuals late in the chase.

And like you said, it's very hard to see what's going on an animal the size of a football a mile and a half away, yeah. We. I know Sherry and I were talking about that and sh that's why Sherri wants to get a drone. Yeah. And that's a good point cuz a lot of the places where I have to walk, that's what I want is a drone.

But then I end up driving three hours to go to private property to drive my buggy and I'm like, man, I could just save a lot more money and hunt close to home with a drone. Yeah. So I don't know. I know I gave [01:09:00] a, maybe I didn't answer the question that Chad asked correctly, but yeah, I do see the breeds because we are selecting, we breed for what, for some, we breed for what wins and the task at hand.

It's like with the grounds in Ireland, somebody said, oh they're not grounds. And I go, yeah, they're grounds they selected for park coursing. They don't need a dog that's gonna run, with endurance and work and work. They just need a dog that has a long run up and turn because the points add up.

That's all they need. Is that a Greyhound? Yes, it's a greyhound. They selected for what they needed, yeah. If an Irishman was in New Mexico, he'd breed greyhounds that, that would run in New Mexico. Tough feet better. Yeah. And that's where I think long dogs have really evolved. People like David Heis, Dean Bohannon and others in the area.

I keep, I say those two, they're heroes of mine, but, [01:10:00] they really are breeding these very tough desert bongos that I really admire. I wanna ask you one last question, Ernest. Yes, sir. If there's one final thought. That you have about the future of Afghans in North America as a hunting animal.

I just wanted to lay that out. You, we were getting, we're getting long in the teeth here, and I really wanted to make sure I got the crux of anything you needed to say to the world about what you love about these dogs and where you think they're gonna go as a hair coring dog. I'm afraid that when Michael and I are gone from this earth, the Afghan as a hunting dog will disappear in the United States because that's not the emphasis of the Afghan lower Corine and these things chasing the lower are the one.

It's what people want. And I'm okay with that because, this is what. Most people in the United States, they don't wanna go [01:11:00] hunting. They don't wanna, they don't wanna go out in the open field hunting, you could see that because there's not a lot of numbers. Even naka numbers are dwindling.

Oh, you muted yourself there, brother. There you go. I don't see it being something that's gonna last after us, because we've been doing, I've been doing this for over 30 years and I've tried everything in my power to get people to come out with their Afghans, to just even watch. I even told them, I can put you on a road and you can park your rv, bring out your lawn chairs, get your drinks, and I'll run around you.

A rabbit around you. And I couldn't get people to come out. There are a few people, less than a handful, that have acquired some of our Afghans, and so this year in New Mexico, There will be some hunts and there'll be a hunt that I'm gonna put it on, put on in January. I talked to you about it [01:12:00] where I have Afghans coming from all over the country, and we could see as many as 10 to 12 Afghans coming up.

Between Michael and I, we have seven, and then there's this Russian lady moved from Connecticut. She has one of our Afghans, she's gonna hunt. There's another lady that has two of our Afghans and they're gonna hunt. So this is something I need to see. Yeah. We will have Afghans, but when Michael and I are gone I don't see it existing anymore.

And it's a shame because I understand the shows and I understand what people want her to do, but, and that's just the way of the world is we're always struggling to preserve. What was origin about what we were and what we are and with the dogs. And that's been always been my goal, is to preserve as much as I [01:13:00] can what these guys were in the early days.

Now I can't comp, I cannot duplicate it. I go to a hunt in a nice car, I go to Denny's and I have last lunch. I'm not a tribal person, but I can do the best I can and that's why I think New Mexico is perfect because the terrain and whatever they're doing is the same.

But, and I'll do the best I can and I'll share it with the best of anybody that wants to, ask questions or be part of it. But I don't see the future of Afghans being very bright. Saluki. Yes, I saluki I think the future is okay. Because for various reasons that I, we don't wanna go into, it's a breed that, you can keep its original form.

Versus an Afghan, I don't know if that all made sense. It, it did. And it was a, that was very [01:14:00] heartfelt, first of all. I'm over here just sitting here and absorbing everything you're trying to say. And I guess there could be a push, this is just superficial.

I know you think about this all the time. But just maybe a push and it looks like, it sounds like you are working on that to, to make the Afghan a respected. Serious contender as a southwestern hair coursing dog here in America. And I think that's what would save the breed is that it's showing, proving that this animal can really run down hairs.

And and obviously they can, they're sight hound, but I think, everyone just, yeah. So that was a good answer and I really enjoyed talking about it. And I, I'm, I Ernest it was great. I really enjoyed hearing what you had to say about it. And you've had a very interesting life with these animals.

And this won't be the last time we talk. I can't wait to come out to the Afghan hunt. I really want to see this. I we'll keep in contact about that. Yeah. I, yes, of course. Yeah, you're more welcome. And we go free coring, and I know you don't, [01:15:00] you're not impressed. That's where we course I'm just spoiled.

I, I was in the school of, I was trained and taught by the HIAs and so they they put me through the ringer of what is a really good place to run. And so now the problem is my intro. Yeah. My introductory is all if it, they're like, if it's not a pool table and 10 million miles of grass, go somewhere else.

And I'm like, okay. Yes sir. I would love to go. I that's what I'm looking for when I hold this, I'm gonna hold on. Last year I canceled it because I didn't see a lot of hairs, but this next year I wanna do it hunt. In January, I talk to you about it and I wanna f find a place where everybody can see their dogs running.

Enjoy it. And I got people from all over the country coming. I got people from here. I got some good places in mind. Yeah. Yeah. And I even have. This Afghan fellow who lives in Texas, or who hunted in Afghanistan, and he wants [01:16:00] to come to it, so I wanna document it write up about it, and it's not gonna be a competition so much as a revel of friends.

It's gonna be a similar celebration of the Afghans running a here in New Mexico. But for that, we need the type of field that you are talking about, where everybody can see it and enjoy it. I gotta, I got a place in mind, I got a place in mind. It's about 10,000 acres and it's perfect.

Oh excellent. Now we'll keep in touch and I'm sure I'll see you because I plan to judge some Saluki hunts if they'll ask me again. And I'll see your guy and looking forward to the competition against her sister Orie. Ah I got a question for you.

Yes, sir. I run entirely too many different types of dogs and then videos and breeds and types and I am the poster child from entirely too many hobbies. And I have one trick ponies that are like, considered the best in [01:17:00] their field. And I have other dogs that are more versatile and they're good at a number of different things.

And like for example, in the bite world and the competition bite dog world, Belgian s are some of the best. And then they have some German shepherds that can contend, but they have other things they offer. But in this high flying, high performance, really flashy testing scenario, man, the mal walls have got it wrapped up tight just because.

They fit into a testing system really well. So I'm paralleling the coursing environment here, if we're gonna put 'em in this testing environment, like you say, I need something that can catch it while I can still see it in the binoculars, so there might be breeds that fit into this testing scenario really well, but that just because another breed may not test out statistically as well, doesn't perform as well under these very specific parameters under a test.

I'm not doubting tests either. I love 'em. They've given us some of the best dogs on the planet, but like every, and you can't test for everything, so with that said, as a guy that appreciates [01:18:00] the best dogs that hit the testing situations as well as the dogs that may not test as well, but has other things to offer that are incredibly valuable, what is something that you love?

About the Afghans. It doesn't even have to be like their biggest point, the thing that sets them us apart and every, but what is it, as a expert in the breed that's seen, the testing scenarios and the dogs that are high performers in the testing scenarios, but you're still interested in the Afghans.

Like just give me one or two things that just maybe the first thing that comes to your head. What makes you love that breed independence? Break that down. They have an independent, they have an independent nature. And I find that challenging because maybe it is because, my girlfriends and my wife's, I had to really chase.

I had to work hard for them. It didn't come easy. And maybe that's why I like Afghans, because [01:19:00] Afghans are very independent. They will not come back until they have had their rabbit. And they know where they're at too. Because I remember this one time we were in this desert with all those big the name, the type of cactus escaped me, but those real tall cactus is of the Mojave Desert and sos, I cho, what's that?

Soros or Toyota? The big tall. The big tall ones. And so we were out at the Mojave and I was with Michael and his brother Tim. And they had refurbished this truck and they put up plywood platform on it. So we're out there running and I'm out there with my dog Jazz, and I lose him and I can't find him.

And so I'm walking and walking, chasing him down, it's getting warm. And I turn around and those guys are up on the top of the truck drinking beers, laughing. And I hide back and I start yelling at him. And I said, I lost my Afghan and you [01:20:00] guys are just up there having fun. And he goes, oh, jazz has been back an hour.

And he's had his drink and he's under the truck.

They know where they're at. They know where they're at, but they're not gonna come in until it could be frustrating. But at the same time, I'm like that independent nature of them. But they're also, you look at 'em and you think, oh, these, I call 'em Palou. I got Audo at home too.

Yeah. But they're tough. They're courageous. They're courageous, they're tough. They were dumb enough to go and attack a pig, wild pigs. And man, those guys, it's they are very courageous, and they do. Cement friendships with you. But I think I think that's what I like.

I like their comical nature. They're fun to be around with. They're [01:21:00] challenging, they're always challenging you, all dogs steal for sure, but, these guys are jumping a, they're always observing me to drop my guard cuz you know, my dogs live in the house with me. But I like that.

I like that mischievous nature. Does that kind of answer some of the things Yeah, it does. On the dog. It does. I can, it's, you've painted a picture in my mind of the, not lonesome in a weak way, but the calm, silent, stoic type. A dog that's not, it's not needy. It's not gonna die without your praise.

It, it'll take it cuz it likes you, but it doesn't, that's perfect that you just said it. They're not needy. Yeah. Hey, you painted the picture. I'm just describing it back to you, bud. Stand it they're not needy. It's like they could live without you.

They need you to feed 'em. They want their comfort. I wanna come in, but That's right. They're not a needy dog. And I like [01:22:00] that about 'em, because they're like cats. You know how cats are? It's like they're the epitome of indifference. Oh, I respect the heck out of self-reliance, that's affectionate.

Yeah. I absolutely like that too, in a hound, because I got a bunch of them in the house and I don't want them all in my lap all the time. I got two snuggle bug hounds and the rest of 'em just wanna lay around like a cat. They just wanna be around you. And that's it. And I'm good with that. That is great.

And yeah I hear you and I agree with you, brother. I guess this is it. I thank you for the interview. I, I had some notes and I said, ah, the heck with the notes. You did great, Ernest. This was awesome. This was awesome. Thank you. Thank you for asking me about the Afghans and I hope that whoever sees this, I'm not expecting, people to go in droves to get Afghans, but I do hope that they realize that [01:23:00] they are more than what in the show rings.

Now, mind you, I love show dogs. I like them and some of 'em do retain some of the qualities, but I want people to understand that Afghans and country of origin were rough guys. They had to be tough because I. You know that's a harsh life. Harsh environ. Yeah. They're not hanging out on your couch.

Everything out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, mine gotten, mine have gotten a little soft, but there's still toughness in them. That's what the, the heritage of an Afghan was, they weren't it they're, some of 'em are still tough, but they live the rough life, and so they have a lot of qualities that require somebody to survive in a rough world.

I'm excited to see them. It'll be my first time ever seeing Afghans run. I love sight hounds, I love hairs, and I love learning and meeting new people. Yeah. So it's gonna, it's gonna do all the things I love. So [01:24:00] thank you Ernest. I really appreciate you coming on brother, and I'm glad we're gonna do this again.

I have some other, we have bonus episodes and some other things I'd like to have you on for in the future. This is not goodbye. This is See you later, sir. So Oh, thank you. Thank you. And next time, we'll get Michael, we, because this has been a partnership between me and my friend Michael, from high school.

Yeah. And yeah, it's been a long, fruitful friendship. You wanna get his side, he will deal a little bit more with the genetics and different things and, so you wanna definitely get him on, but I appre I appreciate it and be wealth. Yes, sir. Until then, everybody hunt 'em hard and treat 'em like heroes.

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Yeah. Now I wanna talk about, yeah, now you, yeah, you can say what you wanted to say. The I keep wanting to say loneliness. That's the wrong word. What the heck? What did, what the the aloofness. Aloofness or independence. Like he said, non-independence, that's the word he used.

Independence. And that a lot with these really primitive breeds that are still sorta living, the tribal lifestyle, and I've tried to wrap my mind around, okay, there it is. There's behavior. That's the behavior right there. You, we can mark it, right?

They're like, it's almost like you yell at 'em and be like, come here. And they're like, Uhuh, and they take off, and they're like why are they all white? It seems like the more primitive, the more that way they are, the more, and I've been trying to wrap my head around that for a little while.

And so this is just theory theoretical stuff here talking, I probably should have. Touch bases with you about this one first before bringing it up. But I want I imagine some of these breeds what I like to say, they never very well, never get into the trash. Never go chase that [01:27:00] deer.

Never do, never bite the thing, so like, when they do something wrong, you get on their butt one time hey, get out of there. And they're like, gotcha. Off the list, but you can't make them do anything very, you know what I'm saying? Pick this rock up and bring it to me. Yeah. You better pack lunch, man.

They ain't gonna do it, but if you were to say, n never stick your nose in this trash can I think they take to that really well. So if they're living in the end I'm gonna reach here in this tribal lifestyle where they aren't chain tethered or caged and they're loose.

A dog that gets into the food or gets into the this or causes problems is go, is gonna die. Literally, it's gonna, they're gonna kill it by human hands or accidentally. Yeah. They're, yeah, they're gonna kill it if it does things wrong. So I think this aloofness and the independence might, and again, just Chad's little theory here might be a byproduct of that.

Never really it's almost come here and they're like, all right, there's aggression. I'm gonna get away from this situation. Or, and [01:28:00] it, I find that with my little saluki pups I got right now, I tell 'em one time I could hang dog treats out of the lid of my trash can and they won't touch 'em.

Yeah. Just cuz I got on their butt one time. One time. That's all it took, yeah. So I don't know, that's just the thing. I also think that they just don't select for companionship quality. That's just not even anything that's important to a tribal nomad. Like I want a dog that stays sound and puts dinner on my plate.

I don't really care about all this other bs. And where do I stay? I don't know. Figure it out. Yeah, exactly. Go sleep under a bush cuz you're not coming to my find a busher, yeah. Something, yeah. And so that's a very broad brush and a hypothesis, but I definitely think that these ancient dogs they live in, they're a portal back in time to how our relationship with dogs has changed because.

You ask some of these people, I've been fortunate enough to know some great people in the Saluki community that have spent great time in the Middle East or have lots of contact in the Middle East of these people that know people like Beins and to eggs like these nomadic peoples. [01:29:00] And, they don't have rabies vaccines, so you need to be careful with dogs.

They can bite you and you die from rabies. Yeah. So you don't have 'em in the tents with you, man. You just don't, they're not clean animals, and so they can not be a clean animal in a more, rural or pastoral setting. So I just think it's interesting how Yeah, the temperaments of these more ancient animals Yeah.

Kind of reflects our old older, much older values with dogs. So yeah, they're a cool time. That's why I made that meme with the caveman art of the four Saluki, catching that barbery, because it's like, yeah, man that's hunting with side hounds. It's this extremely old endeavor predating the, even the domestication of horses by millennia.

Anyway I really enjoy, I can't wait to go to that, that Afghan hunt. Stay tuned, everyone. There's gonna be Yeah. Footage, pictures from that, and yeah. That, that's all I got, brother. Same. Same here. Same here. I don't know. I feel like I could get on site hound stuff forever, but some of the things I let's save it for another one.

I think this one's [01:30:00] good. Clean and wrapped up, man. That was fun. Stay tuned everybody for more all mixed up content. This one is airing. I'm in Canada right now as you're listening to this. So we will be showing lots of awesome content on the Patreon page. When I get back, there's gonna be tons of videos, tons of pictures from this awesome adventure in Canada.

TKI Lodge, Bain Baine Guide Outfitters. You guys rock. So thank you so much and stay tuned. Everyone. Chad, as always, my brother. Thank you for joining me here. And yeah, check us out. Howman You guys, there's all kinds of cool stuff going on the website. We've added all sorts of new stuff to the shop and content to the website to make even more exciting and beautiful.

So thank you, Shane, for making that an awesome place to hang out and, until then, you guys, thank you so much for joining us here. It all mixed up and I look forward to seeing you guys next month with more great content later.[01:31:00]