Taking a Chance on “HOUND 2023”

Show Notes

Outdoor Sportsman Group (OSG) is the largest outdoor publishing company in the world. With multiple magazines such as In-Fisherman, Game & Fish, Bowhunter and Petersen’s Hunting and the TV Network the Sportsman Channel, they have a lot of influence in the hunting world. So why would they take on producing a magazine for such a small segment of the hunting public? It’s because of these guys; 

  • Adam Heggenstaller: Houndsman and Editorial Director for Game & Fish
  • Joe Ferronato: Houndsman and Managing Editor of Petersen’s Hunting
  • Brad Fitzpatrick: Houndsman and contributing outdoor writer for OSG

Hear their stories of why they they felt it was so important for a media giant like OSG to showcase the lifestyle of the houndsman and tell our story. 


Pick up your copy of HOUND here


Show Transcript

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This is the Houndsman XP podcast.

The original podcast for the complete Houndsman. Look at Dakota go, Justin Hyde! We're gonna get him! We're gonna get him! The podcast that represents our lifestyle of extreme performance. [00:02:00] Get up there! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Good boy! Yeah, Ranger! Uniting houndsmen across the globe, from east to west, north to south.

If you're going to catch a cat or a lion, you have to have teamwork. We take you to the wildest places. This is on earth. So how many days a week do you spend out here? As much as I can, to be honest with you, any time that I get I'm out there. Join us for every heart pounding adventure on Houndsman XP.

I'll tell you like I tell everyone else, I'm going to hunt whether you're here or not, so you might as well be here.

Hey, I am glad to have a group of houndsmen on this podcast that have, you guys have done something that is pretty cool for the hound hunting [00:03:00] community. All three of you work for OSG, the Outdoor Sportsman's Group, which also has Game and Fish Magazine, but also the legendary Peterson's Hunting. So we've got Brad Fitzpatrick.

And Adam Hagenstaller and Joe Farinato all in the house, the OSG Wild Bunch. And you guys, the reason you guys are on here, we're going to talk about this, but how are you guys doing, man? The reason you're on here is because that awesome publication, you just, you guys look like you're worn out and tired right now from doing all that work.

Joe did more work on it than I did. Maybe I just sat back and had fun and watched it come together. It was a fun book to put together for sure. Yeah, so I'm just going to go around the room here so people can put some voices to name. We're going to go around here and have everybody introduce themselves and tell [00:04:00] everybody where you're from in the country and what your experience is with hounds.

I think that'd be the easiest way. Brad, go ahead, man. Since we can't see your face, we're definitely going to have to figure out what your voice sounds like. So we know when you're talking to make sure I'm not taking a nap, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I so my name is Brad Fitzpatrick and I'm a freelance writer.

I work primarily for OSG outdoor sportsman's group. Work with both these gentlemen that are here with us at their editors. And I work, I've worked with both of them. I've been wanting to do, this magazine, I feel like has been in the works for me. For 30 years, I've run dogs for 30 years, grew up beagling grew up coon hunting.

Since then I've had an opportunity to write for outdoor magazines. So I have I've gotten to chase bears with hounds and other animals leopards in Africa. Still run beagles, still have beagles. Still run them here on the family farm, still run them on public land here in Southern Ohio. That's my background with hounds, but I know these other guys have totally different experiences too.

Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:00] Adam, what's your story, man? Where are you from and what's your story with hounds? I I was born and raised in Pennsylvania. Spent quite a bit of the time in Virginia and then came back to Pennsylvania about five years ago. Luckily back to my home state. But when I was a kid, little kid, my grandfather had coonhounds and was involved with dogs then, but I, but more from a, just I saw him around, I was too young really to go run around in the woods at night with my.

Grandpa, at least according to my mom, I was too young. So I never really got a chance to hunt with them. But I've always been interested in hounds and about, I guess it was five or six years ago. I bought a dog for, of all things, believe it or not to hunt squirrels with. Yeah, I just, I wanted to get into the hound.

game and squirrels are readily available. And I had done some squirrel dogging with feis and curves before that, but my wife didn't really the way those dogs look when they were puppies, but she fell in love with the whole castle of hound dog pups. So I ended up with [00:06:00] a, with an English Walker hound Gus, and I've been running him now for about five years after squirrel.

So that's, that's where most of my hound hunting is involved. Yeah. What's your job at what's your job at OSG? So I primarily work on a game and fish title as editorial director, but the cool thing about outdoor sportsman group is they give us the opportunity to explore these niches within our, within the hunting and fishing areas.

And how hunting, as has its own culture and it's. It's own following and its own gear and its own methods and things like that. So Joe and Brad and I decided, man we really need to do a magazine on this subject and here we are, we got it done. Yeah. And it is beautiful. It's a beautiful magazine.

You guys sent me a copy of it over thumb through it. If I'm not mistaken, what's around 118 pages. Yeah. 120. If you count cover. Yep. Yeah. Full cover. Good stories. A lot of good content. And [00:07:00] it we'll get into that. Let's move on to Joe Ferronato. Yes, sir. So I'm a, I'm the managing editor over at Peterson's hunting, but like Brad said, or Adam said, OSG gives us these opportunities to explore these niche categories and, create publications about them and, explore something that we're passionate about.

So we're pretty fortunate to be able to. Explore these other facets of the industry and write stories that we like and pursue passions that, live and live in us as well. And I really got into hound hunting probably about 5 years ago when my wife's friend was dating a houndsman.

And it was something that I always wanted to pursue, but never really had the opportunity. My family always had bird dogs. We were a big upland and waterfowl family, and I just love working with dogs. And first time he invited me out to go look for lion tracks in Montana, I was just hooked and, I love the aspect of working with dogs, love watching them run, watching them work those animals and figuring [00:08:00] out a track.

And then just the never knowing, you never know what's going to happen when you let those dogs loose on a trail. So ever since that first time. I've just been hooked and any chance I can get in the field behind hounds, I'm on it. So it's become a huge passion for me. So what you're saying is there was actually a dinner date that your wife set up with one of her girlfriends and it actually worked out where the guy that was on the other side of the table from you, you actually got along with him.

And didn't be weren't like, man, that guy's a dork. I'm never going back to, never again. Huh? Never again. No, that's exactly how it was. My wife came in and she's my friend's dating this new guy. He's a hunter. You might like him. I'm like, oh yeah, great. I'm going to like him. Yeah.

He's one of my best friends to this day. He actually ended up, he actually ended up being in our wedding. That's how it goes, man. So it worked out. Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. It's one of those deals, man. You never know what you're going to get. It's like [00:09:00] back when I was working, when my wife said, Oh yeah, you'll get along fine with him.

He's a hunter. Of course I was a conservation officer and I knew what that was going to turn into is going to turn into a million questions about the law and everything else. It's dude, why don't you meet me for lunch sometime when I'm working. One of those deals, it's just, oh, you work for Peterson's hunting.

Let me tell you this story about this hunt that I was on one time. Yeah. Do you want to put a story in the magazine about it? I think it's really cool. Exactly. No, I don't. Oh man. That's great. Let's talk about the vision behind this thing a little more, because the reason I think it's so cool, Houndsman XP was formed for what you guys have accomplished here, and that is expanding.

The media coverage, the narrative, the exposure that houndsmen get in mainstream hunting and OSG is the biggest fish in the pond when it comes to outdoor publications and you guys are leaning [00:10:00] into hunting with hounds. Why did you choose to do that?

I think we I think we chose to do it because it's something that we love to do. Number one it's. There's a commercial on TV right now that is, I don't know what the brand is for, but anyway, it's I don't know a first responder that gives 80%. I don't know a hound hunter who gives 80 percent really, most houndsmen, hounds women are 100 percent into what they do.

And as soon as I started talking to Brad, and this was, oh, my gosh, I don't know how many years ago. We start talking about hunting and it turns out that we both like dogs and he runs beagles and I have a hound for squirrels and then, same way with Joe, when I met Joe, we're talking about how he's running lions and bears and, at that time I had not done any big game hunting behind hounds and man, tell me more about that.

And eventually, when you have enough of those conversations with enough people, you realize that there is enough interest out there that [00:11:00] boy, we really ought to put together a book. About this, because we have an opportunity to bring in all kinds of different hunting experiences for all kinds of different game and around the world, really, we've got, some leopard hunting in there and some other African conservation stuff in there.

And it just, I think we were all in love with the subject and we love putting magazines together and we decided to combine those two and get the book done. Brad, you're the one that said that it's been like 30 you've had this thought in mind for 30 years.

What were you hoping to accomplish by having. OSG publish a, it really is a coffee table piece. Just build on what Adam said. This is not something that happened quickly. We had to fight for this and we fought for it. And we went back to the, we went back again and again, first it was in passing and then it was like, we had a plan and we were really going to push this.

And the thing about hound hunters is there are [00:12:00] a lot more of us than people realize. We're just scattered. There are lion hunters. There are bear hunters. There are rabbit hunters And even those that don't have hounds right now have a story about it so you get all these people from all over the country with all this interest and you get them together and That's beneficial in two ways.

Number one. We can all share stories. We can all learn from each other we can all be part of this community together, but The other thing is hound hunting is on under fire all the time. More and more people are trying to stop it. They're trying to stop it all across this country. And we have to understand that there are no lifeboats coming.

There is no rescue team coming. We are the ones who are going to have to save that, save hound hunting if anybody saves it. And the more collected we can be. The more united our force can be, the better it is. So the only real hope that we have is to stand together. And we wanted that to be an aspect of it too, is we're going to help do everything we can to unite the Hound community, to share stories with each other, to be[00:13:00] to understand what each other do, but also to protect the heritage of the sport.

Man, that is well spoken right there. You summed up four years of work of this podcast in. Less than 3 minutes right there. I guess we're done. I guess we'll just quit producing podcasts now, Brad. You're welcome. That's why Brad wrote pretty much the whole Hound publication for us. Man, I'm telling you, it.

Really you are speaking my language right there and we as houndsmen we are reclusive and there's even division among houndsmen, and there's a way too much tribalism within the hound hunting community. But we're even divided on whether or not we want the rest of the world to know what we're doing.

There are people in the camp that think that if we hide, maybe they won't notice it, and we can hunt next season. [00:14:00] And we're way beyond that. We're way beyond hiding. The anti hunting crowd knows we are here, and they have got their sights set on what we do every day. And I was just talking to...

Dan Gates from Colorado, he works a lot on wildlife issues out there. And we're just, we're now we're gearing up for the fight. That's going to come to Colorado next year. So we spend a lot of time on this podcast talking about that part. But I think 1 thing that you said, Brad, that I want to ask.

The crowd collectively here is while it's important that we give this sign of unity, how important is it that an organization like Peterson steps up and puts their seal of approval on this when there are even other hunters out there? That would like the, that would sacrifice hound hunting so that we can deer hunt next year, we can do, whatever, [00:15:00] Joe, what's your thoughts?

Yeah, Chris. That's a really good point. And I think it's very important that, publicly, like we come out and we say that we're for this and Peterson's we always say our job is to educate and entertain. We want to put out information to folks that is going to first and foremost, educate them on a pursuit, educate them on different styles of hunting, help them become more successful, but also entertain them at the same time.

And when we talk about educating. There's a big disconnect in our culture, especially towards hound hunting, people just don't know about it because as we were saying earlier we're a pretty quiet reserved crowd. And there's a lot of folks that believe that if we stay quiet, if we hide, no, one's going to bug us.

But like you were saying, the target is on hound hunting. It's on hound hunters because it's a very easy subsect of our hunting culture to attack and. By coming out, by producing a publication to help educate [00:16:00] people, it brings more folks into the corner. Lots of people think it's not fair, to go chase a mountain lion with hound dogs.

But when you look at the conservation aspects of it all you start to understand that, Oh, this is actually really beneficial for lions, for the entire ecosystem that these lions are living in. So you can start to understand why there's a purpose for it. And that's one of the biggest things and why it's such a passion for me, because.

I really want to bring that message to people, to the hunters that oppose hound hunting, who think that we're just out there cheating, basically, to your non hunting public, who has no idea what to think, but just get told that it's evil from anti hunting culture. And I think that's one of our biggest...

Benefits of producing this publication. One of the things that we lean into heavy is the theme of this is fair chase. I close out every podcast with that tagline. This is fair chase because we have gotten to the point [00:17:00] where even some of the most recognized organizations. In the world for wildlife conservation have stuck their arm out and are holding houndsmen at arm's length because they don't want them too close to hunting because they don't know how to define what we do, how we do it.

They don't know how to justify it. But. But even hunters, houndsmen, the biggest hurdle that we have is being able to explain why it's fair chase, why it's important to wildlife management, why it's, and so that's houndsmen. And then for a major publication to come out and jump in that fight and say that, hey, this is something to showcase.

There is value here. It's invaluable for wildlife management. It's, it. If every houndsman is not excited about the fact that Peterson's hunting and OSG and Game and Fish, all the conglomerates have jumped behind this thing [00:18:00] and said, let's do something on hounds. That is a huge major win for hounds because you reach people.

That our traditional publications are not going to reach, your average deer hunter is not going to pick up a hound publication and read it, but they will see your seal of approval on it and say, Hey, OSG is putting their name on this. Maybe I'll pick it up. I need to change. Anyway, I need a different piece to read.

Yeah, I completely agree with you there, Chris. People aren't just going to go pick up a hound publication per se, if they're a deer hunter, your average deer hunter, isn't going to do that because it's not, it's just not in their repertoire, it's not something that they do. So having a name behind it, that's trusted like Game and Fish or Peterson's hunting it definitely will help.

And it'll, give people like an idea Hey, I trust these guys on this aspect of hunting. Like, why don't I see what they're saying about this? [00:19:00] Yes. Adam, why don't you run down the magazines that are in and just an overview of the magazines that are included in OSG. Oh, we've got a bunch of titles.

Besides game and fish and Peterson's hunting, we've got guns and ammo. We've got wildfowl. We've got. We've got fly fishermen. We've got in fishermen. We've got Florida sportsmen. Let's see some big ones that I'm leaving out there. You put me on the spot. Is there a bow hunter magazine?

There's Peterson's bow hunting. There's bow hunter. There is there's just a bunch, and I know I'm leaving some out there, but we've got a wide range of topics covered there and through enthusiast media, if you will. But again, specific. Titles and we get even more specific when we get into these special interest publications like hound we've got crossbow publications, we've got tree publications related to hunting out of tree saddles.

Yeah, just a bunch. Yeah, [00:20:00] there's just tons of influence that you have in the hunting community and that's just why I wanted to bring it up. All of these different places and Joe you said it, man, there's so many hunters out there that trust you with a message for their niche in the hunting community or fishing or whatever it is.

And that's why it's so important. And that's why I think it's a reason for us as a hound hunting community to celebrate and go out and buy this issue of the magazine for sure. And Chris, the other thing too, we were talking about. Education and how some hunters don't not only hunters, but how the general public doesn't don't really know a lot about hound hunting and the thing about being being quiet and keeping your head down is if you do that too much, you become irrelevant and it's not, you're not gonna, you're not going to convince an anti hunter that hound hunting is okay, but you do need to convince and show your fellow hunters.

The hunting with hounds [00:21:00] should be celebrated. Not only is it okay, but it should be celebrated. It's a method, a legal method in many areas, and there are folks who have grown up doing this, and you need to convince the non hunting public who are on the fence, hound hunting is viable for conservation, and it's a, and it's a whole lot of fun, and there's a lot of misconceptions out there that need to be addressed, and the record needs to be set straight, and we do that in hound, on probably just about every page in this magazine for sure.

I was thumbing through it and there's all the articles that we have, you're showing a value for the anti poaching hounds in Africa. We did a piece on that and some of the photos you use are actually the same photos that we used to promote the episode we did. We're speaking the same language here for sure.

My question, the thing that keeps coming to mind is we've always talked about the narrative and getting [00:22:00] control of that narrative again, not only you're exactly right, Adam, we're never going to convince HSUS that it's okay for us to hunt with hounds. But we have to stop letting them write the narrative for us.

And that's what happens when we don't come out, and we don't educate, and we don't show the public who we are. We don't, I, it drives me crazy when I see another person who identifies themselves as a hunter on other places on social media, but they'll see a post about hunting with hounds, say it's a black bear, and they'll say that's too easy.

It's not fair chase or, it's not fair for the animal. It's come on, dude. Are you trying to tell me that shooting a bear from 700 yards away is more fair chase, and I'm not bashing that guy. I'm just saying. Educate yourself. And that's what happens when we don't control the narrative about what hound hunting is, even hunters will develop their own narrative or the [00:23:00] wrong narrative about what we do.

We're living in this culture, Chris, sorry, Brad, I totally cut you off, but we're living in this culture right now where people are just like. Super fast to jump to conclusions. There's, we have everything at our fingertips and they see photos, they read somebody's opinion, they jump to their own conclusion on it.

And then because they're not having a physical conversation with somebody, they have this shield up in front of them. They think they're empowered. They could say whatever they want, so they're just like, oh yeah, I'm the best. I can say this on social media. My idea is obviously right.

Why would I even listen to these guys? Brad, what were your thoughts? The people that are saying that hound hunting is unethical and it's not fair chasing things like that are not the people that have been. People that go hound hunting are not the people who are saying that, and that's what we need to get out.

That's the power of our message. The facts are on our side. There's a park here in town, and there's a lady, she's a nice old lady, but she goes out and she [00:24:00] feeds these feral cats. And she dumps this cat food every day. And she can't wrap her mind around the fact that the 40 feral cats that she's feeding just enough to keep them hungry and out in the field and killing songbirds and nesting birds and small game and things like that is.

A horrible thing for conservation. But if I told her that I'm a hound hunter, then she's mad at me. And so the facts and the truth are on our side that we are in the right on this, from a conservation standpoint, from an ethics standpoint there's no question about it. And the way I introduce people to this is I said, because people are dog lovers, that's the one advantage that we have people like dogs.

They understand dogs. They appreciate dogs. I say, listen, I'll take you rabbit hunting. I said, don't play it. They're all afraid that, they're going to watch rabbits get torn apart. I said, that's not how this works. I said I want you to go out and I want you to watch the dog. Just watch the dog and I want you to watch the dog and tell me whether the dog looks like it's enjoying what it does or it's not enjoying what it does.

And people get that when they see that [00:25:00] they understand animal people, even people who are anti hunting will see a hound work and they suddenly understand. Oh, I get why you do this. I, this makes sense to me because I, they. For the first time, maybe in their whole lives, they get to see a dog that's not just laying on the couch or barking at the mailman or, running around in the dog park.

This is an animal that actually has a job. It knows its job and it loves its job. And it's very passionate about its job. And that is when people see that, then they understand. Yeah, no doubt, man, you struck a nerve there with me about the dogs laying on the couch thing. I've got some couch potatoes here myself.

But the whole, our whole culture has lost sight of the working dog concept. It's oh, let's get a Jack Russell. And it can be our house dog. And then they can't figure out why it's chewing the furniture up and tearing the screens down and, just wreaking havoc in their house and chewing up all their shoes.

It's because that dog wasn't bred for that. You give him a job that he was bred to do. [00:26:00] And he's a wonderful, useful, viable, happy dog at that point. It's just amazing that how far we've dropped off of the. Off the scale like that. One of the things we talk about a lot is, in the terms of fair chase, some of the oldest depictions of hunting known to man involve a man and a dog chasing a beast.

When I hear someone say hunting with hounds is not fair chase, everything since about 10, 000 years ago forward has been a development on hunting. And if hunting with hounds is not fair chase, what are you actually saying about optics on rifles, and tree stands, and saddles, and range finders, and all this other stuff?

We're tapping into something that's historically documented from 10, 000 years ago. If that's not hunting with fair chase, you're shooting yourself in the [00:27:00] foot by throwing me under the bus.

Yeah, I completely agree with you there, Chris. How can anybody argue that using a dog is not fair chase when they have a scope on their rifle that gives them the range and then has a holdover for their 740 yard shot on an animal? They don't have to do anything beyond that. You know what I mean?

If we start attacking these traditional. Hunting practices, something that's, from basically the beginning of hunting that we know it, there were dogs there when we start attacking that. To say that's unfair for us to use. Like it's a really easy jump to be like, Hey you know what?

It's a, it's not fair for you to use that range finder. This technology don't use that. It's, it is shooting ourself in the foot for sure. You know what app I use on my phone more than any other app besides the podcast app to listen to this here podcast I use OnX. [00:28:00] OnX Maps is the most comprehensive mapping system for hunters on the market.

today. I use it all the time. When I was in New Mexico, I was looking at 40, 000 acres of ranch that I needed to learn. I flip open OnX and just start studying the map. When I'm riding trails, I put the tracking app on. It helps me get around in strange country. I could mark water sources, food sources, bear sign, just all kinds of options within OnX.

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We've talked about a lot of the solutions here and some of the [00:29:00] things that you guys have remedied, but I'd like to get your thoughts on how we've gotten here. To this point where we're having to justify what we do. And I want to ask you from your standpoint of experts in the field of outdoor media, and just get your impressions of why it has been such a struggle, or it's become such a battleground in the anti hunting world.

Brad, what are your thoughts? I think we've never had a generation in this country that's been more separated from nature. I was a high school biology teacher and you'd be shocked at how many kids never took them to the woods to do a lab. They'd never been in the woods. They were completely uncomfortable.

And we have a lot of people that live in urban areas that don't see wild animals and they don't understand wild animals. They've never tracked anything. They've never, they don't know where their food comes from. They don't know. how farms work. They don't know, they don't, we are, we have a [00:30:00] generation that is so far removed from nature that, that is, that has, that have these loud voices that are saying, we shouldn't do hound hunting.

We shouldn't do this. We shouldn't do that. We shouldn't have farm. They have such a separation from the way that the natural world works. Food does not come from a grocery store. And that is a concept that seems very simple to most people, but. There are people who just cannot wrap their mind around that.

And I think that's part of the issue is we have become, we have a generation of people who have never groomed, they haven't been on a farm, they haven't hunted, they haven't produced their own food, they haven't, they don't have this connection with nature. They've never, ask people how many times they've camped out or they've gone outside and just slept outside or.

How many times they just spend a half a day in the woods, things like that. We are, we have allowed ourselves to become so separated from how we have existed for tens of thousands of years that people don't have a clear picture anymore. And that's part of the problem. They don't understand how nature works.

They [00:31:00] don't understand how conservation works. They don't understand why this stuff is important. Adam, what have been your observations? Why? And we don't pull any punches on the podcast. Why do houndsmen struggle so much to get an effective message out there? I don't, if you don't want to pull any punches, I don't think they're proactive enough to be honest with you, Chris.

It's one thing to take your kids hunting. Your kids are going to hunt anyway. If they, most of the time, if you hunt, your kids are going to be involved, or at least they're going to. Maybe they won't hunt, but they will understand what hunting is all about. But what about the kids down the road?

What about your neighbor's kids or your kid's friends? Now those are the folks you need to be reaching out for and reaching out to. And I may be preaching to the choir and I don't mean to take on a holier than thou attitude. Honestly, I don't. I'm not trying to be that way. But I just think that if you believe in something as strongly as houndsmen believe, Then [00:32:00] they need to get that message out there and to more than just their inner circle, right?

We need to associate with non hunters Which shoot we need to associate with anti hunters and we need to listen to what they're saying So we know how to defend against those arguments not saying that we need to agree with them But we need to understand where they're coming from because they are as adamant about their points as we are about ours So we need you know, we need to understand that But we also need to understand that there's a lot of non hunters out there who are not educated about hound hunting.

They don't understand what hound hunting is. And we need to show them, or at least communicate to them in a way that they can understand why it's such a special method of hunting. Why it's such a viable method of hunting from a conservation standpoint. And the history behind it. And why it's important to us.

I think as a group overall, houndsmen need to [00:33:00] be more proactive in getting their message out there. How do we do that effectively in a social media world? It's just so hard to get that messaging right. And I actually have seen Facebook five years ago was a train wreck for houndsmen.

It was just, it was, you saw, I'm not seeing the same types of stuff. That were out there. There's actually seemed like there was more of a the awareness has gotten out there that there's certain things that you guys are in the publication business. You want to sell magazines. So you know how to put this stuff together.

That's appealing. And gets a message out there and that's what I'm that's what I'm want to bring to our audience is there's an effective way to get your message out there and there's a very damaging way to get your message out there. So what are some of the pitfalls that we've seen or you've seen [00:34:00] in that messaging?

From the publication standpoint,

pitfalls. From a publication standpoint, we try to avoid those pitfalls. One thing I'll tell you that we do well is we tell stories and we tell good narrative stories. We tell stories that are full of adventure. We tell stories that are full of details that other folks would like to experience.

And that's the right way to go about it to get someone hooked. You don't need to be a hound hunter to enjoy. a good story about hunting bears in Idaho, for example, or about hunting mountain lions in Joe, where'd you call that one? Montana or hunting rabbits or appreciating the bond that that, that man has with dog.

You don't necessarily need to be a hound hunter to be able to appreciate that. You can still enjoy a good story. I'm, I don't know, I twisted the question around there and talk about the positives instead of the negatives. But. I can take [00:35:00] Adam, I can take care of the negative part.

I'm not, I take care of all the negativity all the time. I can get on the soapbox and start preaching it. And and and in publications, you may not see so much of that negativity, but you'll see a lot of it on social media or not negativity, but the wrong way to go about doing things. People get there, they get their anger up so quickly anymore.

We've all got, it seems like tempers have gotten the fuses have gotten so, so much shorter. Oh yeah. Everyone's ready to argue. And Hey, look, we absolutely need to defend what we do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to argue. Yeah. And take a, a personal or such a negative approach to it.

Again, understand where the other person's coming from. So you can tailor your argument in a way that person would understand. Joe, what's your take? Yeah, that last little bit there, Adam, I completely agree with that and been thinking about it while you were talking everybody is so quick to be the aggressor nowadays.

Be on the offensive and jump out [00:36:00] there, get their point of view out and, not willing to listen. So in my opinion our biggest pitfall with getting our message out there is being able to talk to people and I actually had a good conversation with Jim Shockey on my podcast just a couple of weeks ago.

And he had just finished having a conversation with.

Yeah, I had him on a few weeks ago to what a great guy I talk about a guy that can carry the message. Sorry to interrupt you. No, I completely agree, but it was just like, you have to create dialogue. He was saying that, how anti hunting groups, we all at the end of the day, pretty much want the same thing we want.

Nature to be preserved. Like we want healthy populations of wild animals. We just have different methods of getting to that point. And so we need to have dialogue with them. We need to have conversations and we need to learn how to talk with them. And our biggest pitfall as hunters, as Houndsman, the people who are vocal, [00:37:00] the ones who put stuff out there on social media, a lot of times put it out in a way that, is I don't care if you think what I'm doing is wrong, F you.

Type of thing, we don't want to do that. And I'm not trying to insult anybody here, but we just, we want to have the conversation, explain it, tell the story, educate people, put out content that is beneficial for everyone. Tell them why you're doing this.

Blood, Brad Luttrell over at Go Wild. He made a really good point and this applies to all hunting. If you're just posting pictures of the grip and grins and, the kill shots and stuff like that, people don't have the context to understand that is such a very small part of what we do as hunters.

But when you can show the daily activities that go around, go into being a hunter and especially a houndsman, showing the showcasing the pictures of the puppies being born. [00:38:00] Life stages, your training stages, you taking care of that dog, all of that stuff, you're telling that story and that personal connection to it that leads up to this bear or this, the first tree they make or something like that, people can relate to that.

They understand that. But when we just try to define our lives. In one shot, one snapshot for Instagram for, a thousand likes people miss the point of what we do and why we do what we do. Yeah, no, I completely agree. Yeah. Go for it. Oh, Adam, you have something. I was just going to say, Chris you just gave me an idea for a, for an article for the next edition of hound and that's maybe a day in the life of a houndsman or a week in the life of a houndsman and detail it almost diary style, yeah. 4 45 a. m. Get up, and all the work that goes into just a day of [00:39:00] having a pack of hounds and whether you actually hunt that day or not. That work is still going to be there. And I think that's, some folks not involved with hound hunting, they miss that aspect. The 4 a.

m. Wake up, the first day you're in New Mexico bear hunting. That's easy. You've been looking forward to that one. The third day after you've walked miles, that's a little bit tougher. And then you add in the evenings when everybody else is back at the lodge, telling their hunting stories and doing all that, and you're doctor and dog's feet.

And you're feeding the hounds and you're, maybe you're putting some staple. I had a dog that, that got some cuts on it. This last time from is probably from a fence, I'm stapling an ear and given antibiotics and all of that sort of stuff. And they're texting me and saying dinner's ready, and it's okay, I'll be there in a few minutes.

But just telling that side of the story that they don't go to, I don't get to eat and I don't get to sit down until. All these dogs are taken care of today. It's an awesome, [00:40:00] it's an awesome story that we need to learn to tell. Brad. Yes. So as a houndsman. What are some of the things that, that you have experienced that have truly added value to your life, your hunting experience?

You can add stories, you can add historical aspects to it, but what are some of the values that, that you've learned from being a houndsman your whole life? I will tell you what it, what. It has what has not been the most important thing to me, and that is killing animals. That's part of it, like we talked about, but I think I killed like 12 rabbits last year, ran dogs.

Probably 200 and some days a year. I was out three hours last night in a cornfield running, running rabbit hounds. So it's not the killing part of it. And that's the message that we need to get out. But for me, what it has been is that process of [00:41:00] development where you are watching that dog come along, you are there for everything you are thinking this isn't going to work.

And then all of a sudden, one day it clicks. You get to watch that hound work. You get to watch that first trail. You get to, the first time you hear that dog's voice in a pack and you know that's not one of your old dogs, that's the young dog. That is just, it just gives me chills just to talk about that.

To see these dogs, to see how passionate they are. I used to competition hunt and the competition part of it was fun too. But with relationships with beagles. Yeah. And the the relationships you build from that are they're so enjoyable when they go on. And Joe got lucky.

He went on a dinner date and he had a houndsman to talk to, but I go to a lot of those things where I can't talk to anybody about hounds because they're not going to know, they're not going to know anything that I'm talking about and their eyes are glazed over after a couple of minutes, but you go to these events and you meet other hound hunters and you learn about blood lines and you do all this stuff and it [00:42:00] becomes this big community.

And I'm really enjoying the fact that my kids are old enough now to go run rabbit hounds. My, my daughter's never going to be a, she's never going to carry a gun. I don't think, but she'll leash a hound and go out in the field and she knows what the, when it's coming, she knows when the circle's coming and she's ready, she's waiting to see the rabbit.

She's listening for checks and she's just, it's just the community of people that do this are actually wonderful people. We've been torn apart by the media, but these are actually pretty wonderful people that you meet in this game. I agree, man. I've seen houndsmen rise to the occasion.

They're patriotic. I've seen them rise to the occasion multiple times for somebody in the community that has a sick kid. We raised millions of dollars over the over several years for places like Saint Jude's children's hospital. And it's it is a wonderful community of people and I often talk about the fact that.[00:43:00]

I can pretty much take a cross country trip and I would never have to pay for a hotel room just from the people that I've met and shared experiences with in the mountains or in the woods, chasing our hounds around, and the invitations open for them here as well. So you're right.

It is a wonderful community of people, but I got tickled about you realizing that you have nobody to talk to and it took me back to that. Meme where the guy's sitting in the chair with his frog leg chaps and his kunat and light the one he says, when you realize there's nobody at the picnic to talk about hounds with.

Sitting over there by himself, Joe, what was your, mine too, man, I can relate. I can relate Joe. What was it about, you said that you went on a dinner date and found your best friend, but. But I've also seen those situations go bad. It's like it either goes really good and you hook somebody or it goes so bad that people are like, I am [00:44:00] never doing that again.

And you take, you reserve those for those people at church that are. That you really don't want to take, but you feel obligated to. So you take them to your real bad spots. Yeah, exactly. You gargle them, right? You take them to the bad spot and make them have a terrible experience. So they never want to go again.

Have them walk uphill for days. Exactly. Yeah. No, I just loved the the dedication. And you have to be so dedicated to it and you have to train these dogs. You have to be able to work with these dogs. I just, I loved every second of it. That first time I was out watching those dogs run, watching, watching and learning how to read the GPS appropriately to see how these dogs were acting and, never knowing where I was going to end up in the mountains.

You could get lucky and have a lion tree, a mile from where you dumped the box or a few hundred yards from where you dumped the box, but you could get unlucky and go over the next four ridges on this track. You just, you absolutely never know. And. I put that in the same area is when you go out hunting, you never know if you're going to come across an elk in that first [00:45:00] meadow you get to, and, have an easy pack out to the truck and you never know if you're going to have to go 20 miles in and call every friend, to come help you get that thing out.

Exactly. There's no difference between them to me. And, but when you throw the dogs in there and have that aspect of the dogs and, everything you're doing is just. This partnership you have with the hounds, it's just, it's special. It creates a bond that you can't break. I was thinking friendships that you can't break a hundred percent, man.

And I was thinking about that, that crossover there. We've I've taken guys before that, that had never hound hunted, but there were accomplished hunters and deep down inside, I was wanting them to suffer a little bit. I want them to. I want them to understand that this isn't what you've always heard, that it's going to be easy.

And I've often asked hunters, okay, so you've never, like deer hunting is huge in this area, so you've never... Sat in a tree [00:46:00] stand for 15 minutes and killed a nice buck, it just, sometimes things come together. Yeah. And then other, it's easy like that. And sometimes you sit out there in a stand for days and sit through rainstorms and cold and everything else, and you never get the opportunity and hound hunting is no different.

It's no different. Yeah there's really no difference at all. I actually I took my brother in law on a lion hunt when he came to visit. Do you like your brother in law? Do you like your brother in law? Oh yeah he's a great guy. Yeah. I thought maybe it was one of those setup deals where it's oh yeah, I'll take you.

No, he's a great guy. He's just, he's not a hunter. He's not a hunter and he didn't understand it. And I was like, come on we'll show you what it's all about. And we got them all geared up. And it was one of those things where we were going out. It was like, I want this to be, a hard race, something that's gonna, really teach him what, excuse me, what it's all about.

And we took him out and we had actually a really long [00:47:00] run and he just tagged along, knee deep snow. And he just kept pushing up the mountain. At the end of the day, it was like, it's not really my thing, but I understand what you're doing. Like I understand that dedication you have and that responsibility you have for the dogs.

You have this responsibility to that once they're out, once they're on that track and once they're treed, you have to get to them because they're doing their job and they're not going to stop doing their job because it's a partnership for them too. They're doing that job for you. So you have to do your part on the backend.

And he understood it. Like he was like, it's not something I'm going to get into personally. I don't want to go do it, but I love that you guys are doing it. Mission accomplished. Mission accomplished. Sometimes that's the best we can hope for. We just need people that aren't going to shoot holes in the boat.

Exactly. That just aren't going to be actively active against us. That have the understanding. [00:48:00] And I love what you said about, you have to go. Tried in this business, you have to come up with the narrative. So when people say, I don't have a choice whether or not I'm walking for canyons over to my house.

I've got to go if I'm Elk County. I can look at it. I can make that decision. Do I want to walk through the next drainage and see if there's a bull over there? I know there are elk hunters and dedicated hunters out there that truly do not feel like they have a choice. I've got the time off from work.

I'm out here, I'm hunting and I am going to push myself over the next ridge to find a bull elk. I appreciate those guys. But for us, the choice has been made, when that hound tops that ridge and you lose communication with your tracker, you're climbing that ridge to find out where they're at.

Yep. Yep. For sure. Yeah, you have to, once, once you let the dogs go, it's your responsibility to go wherever they go, pretty much, then get them [00:49:00] back, right? Adam, what's your what you said that your grandfather had coonhounds, correct? Yeah. Yep. And yeah, he was recreational, honey. He, just on the no, he was a farmer.

So whatever he had some a few free hours in the evenings or at night, he'd go on the weekends. They'd run dogs too. But. He wasn't in the competition or anything like that. It was just something you did back in the late seventies, early eighties, and in central Pennsylvania, he wasn't the only guy.

I had friends who ran dogs, too. There were a lot of people running dogs back then. Yup. With the fur price is high. Yup. Yup. Yeah. He trapped too. So that, that had definitely had something to do with it, but he was just an overall general outdoorsman. He liked to do a little bit of everything. He just had hounds and that was definitely my first exposure to it.

It must have stuck with you because you, later in life. Oh, it did. It came back to you. Came back. Yeah. It came back to it. There's, there's a period of life where, and some folks are [00:50:00] fortunate and they have hounds their entire life and that's awesome. From, for me, in my experience, there was a time there where I just, a hound wasn't a viable.

Having hounds, it just wasn't viable trying to go to school and build a career and start a family and whatnot. And or at least I couldn't make it work, but then, when you do enough hunt and you start thinking about what, what do I really enjoy and what would I really like to do?

And that's when, the hound thing grabbed a hold of me again. I had friend too, who started hunting squirrels with hounds and in north central Pennsylvania, and he got me into it. As well, and I'm like, man, this is just awesome. This is it, I like to do a bunch of other hunting too, but when I can in the fall and in the early winter I like to get Gus out there and tree some squirrels.

Nice. And you take your brother in law to like the Cutover Briar Patch. Yeah, I take my kids to the to, to my kids. They got to learn the value of hard work too. That's exactly right, [00:51:00] man. That's the cool thing, though. We make, we're joking here, of course. But hound hunting is, it's a great family activity as well.

What kid doesn't like a dog? And to be able to be able to teach your child that you've got to care for this dog, and you've got to train this dog, and then the dog will do, will, will work for you, and will give something back to you. It's a way to teach a way to teach a work ethic and a way to show them that reward comes with hard work and it's all centered on a dog.

What could be better than that? Oh man. What a story. We got a great story to tell. It's a great story to tell and and valuable. Story to tell, we just got to figure out a great way to tell it. And you guys have done it with the hound publication. That's for sure. That's for sure.

1 other thing to Chris, we talked about, I know you guys work with sportsman's alliance quite a bit. And that's, we were talking about defending defending our values and defending. What we do. [00:52:00] in courts and against anti hunters and in legislatures. And those guys do a great job of it.

We've got a piece, by Todd Adkins in there that just lays out the challenges that hound hunters face. And look, and if it's a hound hunter that they already know, but now we've got, a publication where someone can easily hand it off to their buddy and be like, look, this is what you're not a hound hunter, but this is what I have to fight against, every day to keep what I like to do.

Alive and going and it's just a, a way to help folks understand what we're up against folks who may not have been exposed to it or may not even realize what the issues are. Yeah, and we've done. We just had Naomi Hirsch on a few weeks ago. I went to Colorado to the Colorado trappers and predator hunters convention out there.

Of course, Naomi worked for the sportsman's alliance, but. This is a shout out to maybe people that, that are listening to this podcast for the first time. And when you join us on Patreon, people wonder why we asked for [00:53:00] Patreon support, when you join us on Patreon, it's a 12 level, we're going to pay for your membership to the Sportsman's Alliance and that means you're going to get all the benefits for the Sportsman's Alliance, you're going to get four pub, what is it four publications as a quarterly advocate, the advocate.

I think it's quarterly and it's going to put you on the front lines. You're going to see all that stuff that the main value to that is being informed and being able to know what the antis are up to and know what's going on. The, their website is so in depth. You can actually click on your home state and see any anti hunting bills that are on the docket.

Just by going to the website and clicking on your home state, stay informed like that. And so it is a fight worth fighting. And it's I don't think it's something that we've already lost. And I think there's too [00:54:00] many hounds men out there that, that are thinking it's already over. We're just trying to hang on for a few more years.

It's not over until it's over and we're never gonna quit. No. And in some cases it's rolling in the right direction for the positive. Look, Montana just had its first bear, spring Bear Hound season here. What was it last year? I think it was, or, yeah, it was 20, 21. Two.

Two seasons ago. Yeah. Yeah. Two seasons ago. Passed in 21. 22 is the first year and this was their second year. So there's, positive, it's not all negative. We, we don't need to get too down on ourselves because there is some positive stuff working out going on out there right now too.

But Todd Adkins, that guy's sharp. I've had him on the podcast at least once. I need to have him on some more, but I love talking to Todd. I got a quick story to tell about Todd. So there was a bill that had been introduced in Kansas. And Kansas had the bill stated that no [00:55:00] animal could be hunted after sunset and it had something in there with an artificial light as well.

And so it was going to just, if it was passed, it was going to shut down coon hunting in the state of Kansas and Kansas is a strong hound state coon hunting state. And I got a hold of Todd Adkins. I said, Hey, have you seen this? He had not actually seen it. And within the hour, he called me back and he said, that bill's dead.

I said, what do you mean? He goes, I made a call to the so and so out there. And I just want you to know that, that bill's never going to come out of committee. So if you don't think that the Sportsman's Alliance is connected and can get stuff done, that's a quick story to say. That they can't, they got the people in place to do it.

So I was thrilled to see that piece by Todd in the publication. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. [00:56:00] Brad, who'd you leopard hunt with in Africa? I didn't get a chance to read the piece yet, but I'm going to. The piece that we wrote for the article was actually It was part of the Cabela's Family Foundation, Leopard Collaring, the one over there.

And, leopard's obviously a very hard animal to catch. You gotta catch it with dogs. But I hunt with a guy by the name of Coonrod Skeepers, and he is, he hunts barefoot with a spear, and I don't think he owns a gun. What? And and he... He catches these leopards in a net when they tranquilize, when the vet tranquilizes them.

And there's a great, there's a great video on the hard truths of conservation TV show with Dan Cabella, where one of these leopards, a female leopard, she's fairly small. She comes out of the tree and this is all at night. This is completely under the cover of darkness. This female leopard comes out of a tree and she hits the net and she's still alive.

And of course everybody scatters. And then she tries to run and Kunrata has to grab her by the tail. And hold on to her as [00:57:00] the sedative takes effect. Yeah, he's a pretty serious, he's a pretty serious houndsman. What's this guy named? What's this guy's name again? Coonrod Skeepers.

Holy smoke. Yeah. Like Tarzan. Can you explain why he uses a spear? Yeah so number one, he doesn't want to get a dog hurt and you're working at night. He doesn't want to be firing guns and he's traveling. He's traveling with his hounds He's hunting in zimbabwe and mozambique and south africa Most of you know It's hard enough to get a gun permit in one african country let alone be able to cross a border with a gun.

So he's he's just Found that that short heavy spear, where is this effective? And he's used it. It's not just for show. We were there just grabbing by the tail. Yeah, that doesn't work right. But when we were there that we were there we there was another there's a gentleman who was hunting Leopards and he hadn't made it to the tree yet and the leopard bailed and it's pitch dark You can't turn the lights on and the hounds are chasing this leopard and all of [00:58:00] us if you're a houndsman You know, that sound when the hounds change direction and that they're all the way they're coming toward us, they're getting closer.

And everybody had to grab a tree in the dark and hold really still. And the leopard came tearing through and the hounds came behind it. But yeah, it was, it is as much an adventure as anything I have ever done in my life. And I'm glad that I can sit here and talk about it and joke about it. And I'm not in a hospital in South Africa getting stitched up.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. We. It's funny, we're having this conversation. We just earlier this yesterday, as a matter of fact, this won't be relevant when the podcast comes out, but we just did a segment with Gavin Lippius, who's a professional hunter and houndsman from, he's from South Africa, and we had a big, long conversation.

It's we've talked to him multiple times on the podcast, but some of the stories he can tell about leopard hunting and some of his videos, we're not talking about beagles running a circle and you knowing that the [00:59:00] rabbits changing directions, this is serious business. Leopards would like to grab ahold of you just as much as.

Get away sometimes and they're pretty angry. They spend most of their life pretty angry and put dogs on them and they get a whole lot angrier. Yeah, for sure. Hey guys, I really, I just want to sum the whole conversation up. I think it was great message there. What you've guys have done about.

Showcasing hounds and houndsman using the OSG platform. I applaud you for it. Thank you so much for doing that and stick them with that. I really do appreciate it. And I think every houndsman out there that's listening, this should appreciate it as well. So tell our audience and our listeners how they can find a copy of this publication you guys put out.

And I'm assuming that. It took a lot of convincing on your part. You stated that, but. Whether or [01:00:00] not there's a 2nd edition of this is going to be based on how well it's received and, circulation on this piece, so I think this piece is definitely something that needs houndsman support.

Somebody tell us where we can find it and how we can get a copy of this. Thanks for having us on Chris. A lot of fun talking to you. So if you want to find an issue. It's on newsstands right now, but of course that may not be relevant when this podcast is out. It's on sale until November 13 on physical newsstands in the stores.

But if you go to OSG's website, osgnewsstand. com you could get a copy there for longer time. So that's osgnewsstand. com. And I'm going to have you send me send me that link. Adam, and I'm going to attach it in the show notes to this episode. And this episode will be out before it's off the newsstand, but I want people to [01:01:00] be able to find this and support OSG for having the courage and the vision, the three of you for pushing to get this publication out there to houndsmen.

So thank you very much, Joe. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me on. Enjoy talking to you every time. Yeah, you too, man. Adam, you take care, buddy. Keep that hound in the squirrel woods. We will. Yeah. Yeah, Brad, you and I are going to have to get together to chase some rabbits sometime with those bagels.

I, I don't have any bagels, but man, I love to hear a pack of bagels around. I'd be more than happy to come over and, or you could come over here. We'll change the plates. We'll change your plates on the truck when you come across the state line. So nobody knows you're from Ohio. And listen, Chris, I'm not hard to convince.

Even if I have to pull the plates off my truck to come run rabbit hounds, that's fine. You don't worry about that. Yeah. All right, everybody. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Houndsman XP [01:02:00] podcast. And I just can't stress it enough, man. Support the people that are supporting you. This magazine that's been published by OSG is going to reach eyes and hands of people who can help us secure the future of hound hunting in the United States and across the world, really.

So support them, support OSG and pick up a copy of Hound. And I'll put, like I said, I'll put a link to the show notes or a link to that edition in the show notes. And I'm sure they won't mind if you would go ahead and buy an actual annual subscription to one of OSG's magazines to help further support their cause over there.

So until next time, thanks for tuning into the Houndsman XP podcast. This is Bear Chase.