Game Wardens and Houndsmen have always had a special relationship. Albeit, adversarial, it is a relationship that is steeped in mystery, misunderstanding and at times; outright hatred. It is a relationship that also comes with a long history and tradition. For way too long it has been widely accepted that the Houndsman’s job is to outsmart the game warden and the game warden feels it his job to outsmart the Houndsman. An ignorant game that needs to be resolved.
Seth goes to work in this episode to pry some of those tales from Chris. Being a Houndsman and a game warden Chris lays out some entertaining stories about his professional encounters with hunters and also talks about his frustrations in dealing with an ignorant bureaucratic machine known as government.
This episode is filled with tones of laughs but also touches on the serious topic of how houndsmen can gain ground and earn respect from other hunters and policy makers. Chris also challenges game wardens to do better. No one is innocent and there is plenty of ignorance on both sides of the issue.
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Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Hounds Men XP podcast. I'm your host Chris Powell, and in this episode of the Hounds Men XP [00:03:00] podcast, we're gonna tell some old game warden stories. Seth has been dying to hear some stories for a long time, and it was quite a, uh, crazy career at times. But, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna recap some of those most memorable stories, and we're gonna talk about coon hunters and game wardens.
I did my best to keep the names out of these stories to produ, protect the innocent and the ignorant. There wasn't much innocence, but there was a lot of ignorance and that came from both sides, whether they came from the guys wearing uniforms or the guys running hounds. We're gonna deep dive into this whole topic we're gonna talk about.
Why game wardens and wildlife professionals do what they do and why koon hunters do what they do and how we can learn from both sides of this thing. So I think we're gonna enjoy this. When I had a fun time telling some of these old stories and rehashing that, make sure you're checking us out on [00:04:00] Patreon.
We are dropping some discount codes over there. Seth is doing a great job. We just started reaching out to you by email directly from us. We found that a lot of our Patreon messages were going to people's spam folders. You weren't getting notified and it's just part of the learning curve. Folks, we hadn't forgot about you.
We think about you a lot and we send a lot of stuff out. There's stuff that comes out of our Patreon account every week, but we know that you were not receiving that. And so we, we started a new deal where we're contacting you directly by email. And you should have gotten those first rounds of emails last week.
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Gonna be dropping very shortly, something that you're gonna be excited about and gonna be able to benefit from. It's gonna be a deep discount on a, on a cool app for your phone, something that all hunters should be using. We'll make that announcement soon, as soon as the ink dries on the agreement, and we'll get that rolling out to you.
You're gonna get a huge discount when you join us on Patriot while you're at our firstname.lastname@example.org. Make sure you check out all, all of our sponsors listed there. All of these sponsors are serious about preserving your freedoms to free cast hounds. I strongly encourage you to give them a look before you buy your next round of equipment.
And if you're a Paton member, again, there are discount codes for using those sponsors. This is a fun episode. Seth is as energetic as ever, as inquisitive of as ever, and he drags some stories outta me that, [00:06:00] uh, I kind of even forgot about. So sit back, buckle up. This is a box shaker. Let's get the tailgate down.
It's time to dump the box.
Seth Hall: I, uh, Stumbled into a badger digging up some rodents. That was pretty rad. Okay. Don't see that very often. Yeah. He was digging up a banner tail kangaroo at mound and I was like, run banner tail rod root rooting for him. You should ditch your terrier and get a badger. That's what I think Chad should work on next, is
Chris Powell: that trained badger.
I want to come out and dig a badger with my terrier. Yeah,
Seth Hall: I wanted to do that with Chad, but it was the wrong time of year. Yeah.
Chris Powell: Yeah. This sound too hot. Too hot or what?
Seth Hall: No, it was snowing everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. It
Chris Powell: was like two feet of snow. I just talk. Yeah, you when you guys were up there. I get it now I get,
Seth Hall: no, I'm gonna go with him sometime, whenever.
That is the time of year to do. Apparently [00:07:00] they're like very transient animals and so like I was reading a paper, so Chad told me that they're really transient and I was like, which means they move around a lot. And I was like, okay. Uh, I wanted to kind of check that out myself. So apparently like. So the family that Badgers, Wolverines, weasels, stoats, Martins and Otters are in is called Mustela Day.
And like that whole
Chris Powell: family, how come you always wait to nerd out every time you come on my podcast? No, Chris. That's my secret nerd secret. All the, I'm always nerdy out. That's right. I, you're right.
Seth Hall: Anyway, but they, they colored some Wolverines man and apparently Wolverine, they don't care, man. They just go wherever they want.
One of them walked like 400 miles. Yeah. In no particular direction. It was just walking around. Yeah. And it like walk was walking like 20 hours a day.
Chris Powell: Wolverine don't care. Yeah.
Seth Hall: And apparently Badgers are very similar. Like there's some radio collar data of them. All right. Sorry. GPS call data of them, they'll just be walking in the desert floor and then they're like, I just wanna climb this [00:08:00] mountain.
And they'll just walk to the top of a mountain and then come back.
Chris Powell: Don't you remember? Don't you remember all that craze that was going on about Honey Badger? Yes. Like honey badger don't care. Yeah. Yeah. That was, there was a wolver, there was a Wolverine. We could have told the Wolverine story just as easy.
I mean, you talk about something, the walks around on the face of the earth with the nastiest attitude ever. Oh, you're a grizzly bear and you think you want to start some crap with me? Yeah, bring it. Okay. Whatever.
Seth Hall: And that's the thing, like when a Wolverine backs a grizzly bear down in nature, you can't afford to get hurt.
So like if I was out there, like I didn't know what a doctor was and then like an elementary school kid with like five butcher knives taped to his hands, just like came running at me like a psychopath, I'd run away too. I'm not gonna stand and fight him like I'm outta here. It's all attitude. They're just crazy.
Yeah. And I would say, I would argue that a Wolverine's more successful than a honey badger, cuz they have trans global radi, like trans global range. The entire Northern Hemisphere and Honey Badger are only in Africa. So yeah, I'm [00:09:00] on team Wolverine. Heck yeah, me too. Me too. I've never seen one though. I wanted to, when I was in Canada, I saw their tracks, but I never saw one.
Chris Powell: They're, it's a rare thing to see 'em for sure. Well, hey, let's do some recap and stuff. Not, not a bunch of recapping we're gonna do, I wanna talk about what I did this weekend, cuz it was cool. And then I want to then, uh, so, so you just need to like say Yeah, that's cool throughout the whole podcast. Yeah.
No, I had an opportunity to go to the, uh, the NRA National. I saw that convention was in Indiana. And honestly, I, I probably would not have gone, uh, if it would've been, you know, in Nashville or someplace like that. So, but since it was in Indianapolis and I'm real familiar with downtown Indianapolis, I knew I could just run up there and attend it.
But we ended up staying the night and, uh, hung out with Anthony [00:10:00] Pace. From Freedom Hunters. That's a cool band. Yeah. Uh, my neighbor went with me who's, who's referred to in this podcast and from here on out as Joe the neighbor. He's actually doing some, some video work for me as well. So yeah, we, we video.
Is he a super duper whitetail
Seth Hall: hunter? No.
Chris Powell: Okay. No, I'm not, I'm not worthy to hang out with those guys. Yeah, I, I'm, I'm not worthy no. Joe, the neighbors, um, uh, just, he's a friend of mine and he just lives up the road here. But anyway, he's, he traveled with me out to Cody, Wyoming. Where else has he been with me?
Decided he wanted to go to Cody, just like, yeah, I got time off. Let's go. Uh, he is down for anything and if he doesn't then he's a police. That's a great quality in a person. Yeah. I love that. He's a police officer in, in, uh, Lawrenceburg. So, uh, and he is got a lot of seniority and he is got a lot of time built up, so it's a rare thing when he.[00:11:00]
You can't talk him into using a little bit of, uh, scheduled time off to, to go screw around and, uh, just hit him on his days off. So we drove up to Indy and hung out there for a few days. We got to meet a lot of cool people. Uh, Gary Robertson was there. Got to, got to visit with Gary for a little bit from Nice.
Yeah. Yeah. Carnivore. Carnivore, Vernon Brothers game calls. Ruger ambassador, man. That guy's connected. Yeah, he really is. And uh, yeah, he wrote it, wrote the book, ayes Front about Predator calling. So that's a, that's another, another cool aspect of it. That's a great title for a book, especially about Yeah.
Eyes Front. And it's a well-written book. He's been in the business for so long, so, uh, it's always a good time to be around Gary. And, and we sat there and, and talked. I, I felt guilty because he ru he was supposed to be sitting there working the Ruger booth and we were just like, gabbing. I don't know how long we stood over on the [00:12:00] side and talked, you know, and people were walking up and, and, uh, he, it's not that he was being rude to him, but it got to the point where I could tell that they wanted to talk to him.
So I had to back out, go away. But, uh, yeah, so I got to do that. And then I met a Medal of Honor recipient. Yep. Whoa. Sammy Davis and not, um, not the singer comedian Sammy Davis. Not Sammy Davis, Jr. Sammy Davis, that's his actual name. He was a Vietnam veteran and, uh, ended up buying two of his books and stood there and talked to him for a long time.
You know, the outdoor, the, the whole outdoor show for me. Um, I've kind of got, I don't enjoy it. There's some people that just love going to show shows. Anthony Pace loves going to shows. Joe, the neighbor loves going to shows. They like doing that. And I know Heath enjoys going to shows. Um, [00:13:00] I don't know what it is, man.
I think it's some kind of character flaw where it's like, okay, I've been here for 25 minutes and I'm ready to go. You just gotta go in
Seth Hall: with the mentality to, to, to party, man.
Chris Powell: I know. I know. It's, it's, it's, uh, but I, it was all stems back to the days, and this is a segue for something we're gonna talk to later, but we would have to go, when I was a conservation officer, we'd have to go work the state fair and we'd have to go work the Indianapolis boat Show.
And you had to listen to all the game warden stories and you had to listen to all that stuff, you know, and, and guys running up to you and showing you their horn porn or their buck from three years ago. And, and you know, it's like, surely you've seen this deer and it's like, looks like a whitetail deer. I am so impressed.
Seth Hall: What I want them to do is say, look at this deer. And then they show it to you and it's actually a cow plot twist. You know what I mean? Yeah,
Chris Powell: yeah. The ones, the guys that, that I always did enjoy talking to were the [00:14:00] guys that, uh, came up and they were hounds when they were coon hunters because the other officers didn't wanna talk to them.
Anyway. Those are your people. Those are your people. Yeah. And we'd sit there and we'd talk about hounds and, and, you know, every once in a while you'd, you'd, but we always had a good time, the, the deer and Turkey expo, um, when those guys would come up. But I just got tired of it. I hated it. Yeah. I hated the whole time I felt I was there in my dress uniform and I was all, it was just, it felt like I was on display and I was there for a stupid question hour and, and it just sucked.
I hated it. And so, but now it's different. It really is different because there's a lot of opportunity in that, in that room. Um, a lot of, a lot of interesting stuff. I found some really sick. Night vision, thermal imaging stuff that I'm not, I'm not gonna reveal the name yet because, uh, we're trying to figure out how to, I'm [00:15:00] making contact with that company.
We'll just leave it at that. So nice. Yeah. I have a,
Seth Hall: I love thermals, man. They're so
Chris Powell: fun. I know you do. You're never get tired of it. You're a thermal
Seth Hall: I am, I am. For fun And for hunting. Uh, just for fun. Owning them to like, go out and look around. The desert is alive with creatures at night in the, in the, in the night.
So yeah, you go out there thermal.
Chris Powell: What does a desert, have you ever looked at the desert during the day? Y Uh, no. I've never looked through desert during the day through, through thermal.
Seth Hall: Oh yeah. Well, it's just white out. You can't see anything. It depends on the time of the year. That's why you're wondering if it's wintertime.
You can see, you know, but during the summer, no, your screen is just completely white or black, whatever. Yeah. You'll see some differences if like, you're looking at a house, say, and, and the house is cooler than the, than the desert sands. But since the sands can get to like 140, sometimes they can have a different contrast.
And [00:16:00] so it can kind of be inverted.
Chris Powell: That's what I was wondering if like, you know, a, a jackrabbit or something, like they're, they're obviously not 140 degrees. Yeah. They're cooler. So would it be inverted and you could see stuff in the desert that way? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Seth Hall: I don't, uh, I don't spend a lot of time out in the summertime, out in the day very much.
I, I go to work, I clock in usually at five 30 and I'm leaving the desert at 11. It's just, I know it's a dry heat, but it doesn't matter. It's 110 is 110 and it is brutal. So yeah, everyone's heading for shade, including
Chris Powell: us. Well that's when we went to, when we were in the desert, the big desert over in, um, The Middle East, you know, it was, if you didn't watch, you know, idiots like me that were raised in the Midwest with humidity, when it gets to 85 degrees, you know, it's hot and you know you need to drink water and you need, you know, all this stuff.
So you get to the desert climate and it's hot like that and you really don't [00:17:00] feel it. You know, you don't exactly, you don't feel it. So it sneaks up on you and before you know it, you know, you look like a boiled lobster and sitting there in your tongues swollen up in your mouth. It's like, I, I need, all of our heat
Seth Hall: casualties are from the Midwest at my, every year we have people that come in from out of country or outta state to work where I work and, and to be like interns or do their summer projects or whatever, PhD projects.
And all of our heat stress casualties, all of them are from the Midwest and like Minnesota and Michigan. Sure. For sure. They just don't, you don't expect how quickly you can just get smoked out there and the dryness you don't, you don't sweat. Well, you do sweat like a, you sweat like crazy, but right now it's 80 degrees and 6% humidity, so that moisture just wicks off you in like a millisecond.
Yeah. So yeah. Anyway, it's uh, it's horrible in the summertime. That's a long story short. Yeah. Yeah. It was an interesting day though. We, um, we, we, you know, you were talking about conservation officers.
Chris Powell: [00:18:00] We just had a guy. Well, I'm not ready to go there yet. No. Whenever you're, I've got one more thing to talk about us.
Keep going. Keep going. I also got a bottle, a signed bottle, right. Josh McKaylas of Horse Soldiers Bourbon and it was signed by Mark Nsh. Horse. Horse Soldiers. Horse Soldiers. Yep. The guys that, the Special forces unit that were first in Afghanistan, they wrote a book. Oh yeah. Yeah. There's been several.
There was a movie, 12 Strong was a movie about this unit. Oh yeah. And, uh, seeing that now. So they, uh, yeah, mark Nosh was at the Slippery Noodle and, um, Anthony Pace. I didn't actually get to meet him. Anthony Pace was at the Slippery Noodle the night before. I'd filled him in on where to go in Indy. And, uh, it's a, it's a jazz bar, which is a super cool place to hang out in the and stuff.
And [00:19:00] so that, that night that before I got there, mark N was at the Slippery Noodle signing bottles, and Anthony picked one up for me. So, dang. That's a friend right
Seth Hall: there. Yeah.
Chris Powell: He has a habit of hooking people up. I'm telling you what man. That there, you walk around with that guy and it's like, Hey, you wanna go eat lunch with the, uh, executive board of directors for the nra?
It's like, yeah, yeah. Let's, let's roll. You know? So I sit there and I eat lunch with, uh, general Leroy Cisco, who is a retired Lieutenant General, and he has, if you look him up, and I'm, I'm not even gonna try to remember his nonprofit, but they've, they've given overweight 9 million in homes, homes, new homes to veterans once and yeah.
Oh yeah. He, he makes appearances with George. His, one of his neighbors is George Strait and, and George Strait. Yeah. They'll, they'll be on stage together. [00:20:00] And, and general, Cisco was a, was a really cool guy. We sat there and talked for a long time and, and, uh, so you, you just, you, you have the op when you go places like that.
And I'm not a, I'm not a starstruck guy, you know, it's, it's, I don't, that kind of stuff. Like when we were at shot, Chuck Lall. Was walking down the island, people were mobbing. The m a fighter Chuck Lall. Yeah. Yeah. Huh? Yeah. Chuck Liddell's walking down through there and people are mobbing him. And I was like, oh, there's Chuck Liddell.
You know, and, and I met General Schwartzkoff one time at N N R NRA Convention. When was, when it was in Indianapolis. And, uh, you know, it's just, it's just people like the Generals, Schwartzkoff, Cisco, you know, guys like Mark Nsh, Sammy Davis. It's more of a, a respect thing, you know, it's just a, a great, you, you stand there and you talk to a, a man that's been awarded the [00:21:00] highest citation medal for bravery in the world, in my opinion.
You know, it's, it's just one of those things, it, it, it makes you, it's not all, it's more like you're not worthy to talk to this guy. Ultimate respect. Ultimate respect makes you question. Your own character, your own principles, you know, things like that, you know, question if, you know, what have you done lately, type thing.
Seth Hall: Yeah. I mean, I said that exact thing today we were listening to, because in Chosin, the Battle of Chosin Reservoir, there's tons of Medal of Honors awarded, and that's exactly what we said in the truck. We're like, what are we doing? These guys are out here like being total bad asses and we're just like staring at the
Chris Powell: dirt.
You know what I mean? Like yeah. What, uh, what, what was the focus of that chosen Reservoir book?
Seth Hall: It was, uh, so it was written by a guy named Hampton Sides who wrote my favorite book, blood and Thunder, which I've actually talked about before on this podcast. But it was just, it's, it's called [00:22:00] On Desperate Ground, and it's a, it's a metaphor or a, I guess a direct quote of Sun Sue talking about there's certain kinds of ground that an army can be on, and like the worst kind of ground to be on is desperate ground.
Mm-hmm. Whether you're trying to like flee or escape. And, uh, yeah, it was just about the whole battle of Chosin Reservoir from like the race to the Yalu and then the retreat back to, um, hung Nam and then the evacuation to the 38th Parallel.
Chris Powell: So Right. Was it focusing on, was it written by a soldier or was it written by a Marine?
No, Hampton Sides
Seth Hall: is just a military historian, so. Okay. Um, yeah, he, he, uh, you just gotta read the book. What I love about it is it, it is history. It's history, but it's told from the perspective of the people that were there and he had like first firsthand interviews with those people there. Some of 'em, not all of 'em, but obviously cuz it was happened a long time ago.
But yeah, anyway, it was an incredible book and man, people, both sides, insane bravery. You're just like, wow. Yeah, that's just unbelievable. It's
Chris Powell: unbelievable. Well, you know, getting back to the s [00:23:00] or the, the NRA show, I said there's a lot of opportunity in that room and that's why I go, I hate going, but I go because I, I get to.
I mean, I sat down with the, I had lunch with the chief editor for American Honey Magazine for the Righteous Whoa. That, that edits the whole magazine, the American Hunter for the nra. And she wants to know more about Hounds and, and how Hounds play into wildlife management. Uh, safari Club International, one of the largest Yeah.
Groups in the country. You know, I stood there and I talked to them and, and they saw my, my hat and my shirt, and they're like, Hey, what do you do? And, and, uh, you know, I told 'em what we did. We broke it down. And so we're gonna be, we're gonna be doing some stuff with them in the not too distant future.
Preserve, protect, promote. Yeah. Yep. All the, always. And that's, that's my mission when I go into places like this, it, that is my mission to represent Hounds man and get our story out there and get [00:24:00] it back in that mainstream deal. You know, when you're standing there and you're talking to somebody from a, um, a thermal optics company.
And they're like, what do you use it for? And you start telling them, you know, you know the, it's huge in competition. Coon hunting. Now we use 'em for hog hunting. We use 'em for, you know, all kinds of things. Th they're like, wow, we had no idea. So when you open that dialogue up with them, then they, their wheels start turning and thinking, man, we haven't even touched that market.
We didn't, we really don't know that much about it. And so now they can start working on, uh, uh, products that are gonna be suitable for our crowd, you know, and find, find how. And it's, it's just, it's just valuable ammo. You know, the, the underwear guy, Underwood, ammo, there were ammo companies everywhere, course, but the guys in Underwood, ammo, you know, they, now that we open that up, that dialogue with them, when I walk up to their booth, Hey, ma'am, we, you know, such and such [00:25:00] bear hunter from Tennessee ordered ammo and, you know, we we're getting pictures of this kind of stuff.
You know, we're getting pictures of, of bears that have been taken with our ammo that with hounds in 'em and stuff. So that's what it's gonna take to, to really anchor us in this conversation about hunting and making it mainstream is getting out there. Not just going to the hound events and talking to other hounds men, but getting out there and talking to people that need to hear our story and need to know what it is.
And, and that part of it, I don't get tired of the rest of it. I can only look at so many blackstock rifles and, you know, silencers and stuff like that. And it's like a big yawn fest for me. I just,
Seth Hall: but can you get tired of looking at enough rock locks? No, I cannot. Enough Flinders? Oh
Chris Powell: yeah. Yep. No, I, uh, yeah, there weren't any, there were some of those there.
They had some historical, historical cases. But anyway, there was also a conservation officer booth set up there, [00:26:00] one of the guys that I used to know. And, and, uh, I didn't even, I didn't even walk up to the booth.
Seth Hall: He was just like, oh, yeah,
Chris Powell: yeah. That's like another lifetime ago. Flashbacks. Yeah. Yep, yep. And there were some good times, I'm not gonna lie. Oh, for sure.
Seth Hall: Yeah. I mean that's, I I, it was funny that you said that, cause I was talking to one today and I don't know, we were just kind of chatting and you know how it is.
I didn't want to get in his way. He was talking to some young students. They're recruiting, you know, but they were chilling. And so I came up to him and talked and, you know, that was something I was really considering too, myself. And, uh, you know, we were just talking about it and the, the draw results and stuff.
And he told me something I thought was kind of interesting. I wanna bounce this off you. I was, I kind of wanted to bring it up. He said that by far the majority of poaching is done by a very small majority of cereal poachers. You ever heard that before?
Chris Powell: Yes. Yep. Do you think that's true? [00:27:00] Yes. I think, um, I think the way most fish and wildlife agencies work, um, your, your average uniformed officer out there, I mean, we've got some outstanding game wardens out there that, that are out there fighting wildlife crime.
There's no doubt about it. But, um, uh, the way bureaucracy and the, the higher ups want the officers to work, we only have the time and the opportunity to catch the dumb ones. You know, the Seriously, seriously, I mean, um, you know, I, how many, how, how skilled do you have to. To, to sit in the bushes and, and watch somebody cast a line in the water and then walk down and check a fishing license, you know?
Um, and, but, but yes, I agree with that because most of the, uh, major wildlife investigations are conducted. It, it all comes. I'm not trying to devalue the [00:28:00] game wardens that listen to this podcast, cuz, but I also understand what goes on there. A lot of that information that leads to those big time investigations are from the, the, the game wardens that are out there working in the field, you know, out there working every day.
They know the information, they know that, you know, their district commander wants 'em to be down on a boat, riding around on a boat and doing this sort of stuff and trying to schedule their time when they really know that they need to be over here working on this serial poacher, this guy that. Uh, you know, his has got a long history or they know he is got a long history of, of nefarious activities, but they just simply don't have time.
So you feed it to the investigators, the, the advanced investigators and, and most states have an investigation section. Now, I, I, I like real life detective type guys that are really highly skilled and highly trained. Everything from [00:29:00] forensic, uh, computer forensics to advanced interview and interrogation techniques to, you know, all kinds of stuff.
So it's Did you ever do any of that? Any, do any of what? Did you do any of
Seth Hall: the investigation
Chris Powell: stuff? Uh, the only, the only time that I had was about six months when I worked undercover as an undercover officer and I hated it. Oh, I was gonna ask. Cool. It was way, it was way too early in my career. Oh. And, um, uh, it was, uh, I, I just.
I wanted to be out there. It was too slow paced for me for what we were doing. The op that we were working was, I did not enjoy it. It was not something that got my blood boiling. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, they were looking at, they were looking at, uh, amphibian and reptile trade, which was a huge deal. Uh, okay. Wait, wait, wait.
Break that down for like the pet trade or something. Well, people would come out in, come out into Indiana and they would pick up, they, they would harvest all these land, [00:30:00] terrapins, box turtles, red air sliders, all this stuff. And then they would privatize 'em and send 'em to the pet trade. Huh. So they'd go out here and collect all this stuff.
And then, so really what they were doing is they were going out and collecting our natural resource, bringing it in, and then profiting off of it. Yep. And, and the pet trade. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. So that's
Seth Hall: crazy. You never think of just like benign North American species as being in the pet trade, you always think of just like exotic, like crazy rainforest animals and stuff.
Chris Powell: how the, that's how the Python cowboys. That's how the Python Cowboys making a name for himself down there. It's all based on that pet trade. Well, but
Seth Hall: not anymore. That's what he was saying. Like I didn't even think about that, which blew my mind. But that's where it came from. Yeah. Right, right.
And, and they were, apparently the pet trade people were making a big dent on that iguana population too, which really surprised me that people stop breeding them and would just go out and catch 'em in the wild. And they made that illegal to transport them. And so that was like a huge loss to the collection.
That was [00:31:00] crazy. That's, that's kind of the beautiful thing
Chris Powell: about wildlife. But the only reason, the only reason there were bulk constrictors and pythons in the other Oh yeah. Is because, because of his, some gang banger, you know, tried to eat his pit bull and he took it out and he, you know, he dumped it in the everglade.
Audio set thing.
Seth Hall: Yeah. Yeah. I,
Chris Powell: I freaking, I, I can't believe, uh, the python got too aggressive at the strip club, so the strip club owner had to take it out and get rid of it, saying hard, like said, get rid of
Seth Hall: this thing for us. Ew. I don't want to touch it. Yeah. Hey, hey. Yay or nay for having snakes as pets, yes or no?
Chris Powell: Who? Me? Yeah. Nah, I don't, I don't have any, that doesn't do anything
Seth Hall: for me. I'm the same. One of my best buddies has a pet snake in this house, a rattlesnake in his house, and I'm like, yeah, I don't get it. I just don't get it. I don't get it. But whatever. I mean, different strokes for different folks.
Chris Powell: Yeah. I mean, there's, they're fascinating.
They're fascinating. We've worked the whole, we worked the whole case on, on, uh, you know, it's called herp [00:32:00] scam, where we, we actually would go out and we went out. Sounds like a medical case. Yeah. We went out and seized a bunch of illegal snakes and stuff. Like
Seth Hall: what, what was the craziest snake you saw? Now I'm gonna gaon Viper.
Cause I asked this guy a bunch of crazy stories. I'm gonna ask you the same too. I can't believe I've never done this before. But wait, what was the species you said
Chris Powell: a ga boon viper. Whoa. Yeah, I've seen it. We, we had puff outers ga boon vipers when we're, okay, so we're getting ready to go and do these.
We're, that's badass. We're getting ready to go out and do these raids. Okay. On, on these herp guys. And um, um, so they were talking, they were trying to train us how to catch, catch these snakes. And it's like, dude, if that freaking, if, and we sit through this big, we sit through this big, uh, presentation and it's like, this is the deadliest snake in the world.
If it bites you, you will die in 0.6 seconds [00:33:00] before you bend over backwards in a violent manner and kiss your own ass goodbye. You know? So it's like, And then they're like, okay, now we're gonna show you guys how to handle snakes. And it's like, okay, if this, if, if we're in here and we're doing this raid, and for some reason this aquarium gets knocked over and that snake gets loose, we want to show you the shovels.
Shovels. I'm like, dude, I'm carrying a freaking 45 on me and it's dying. I'm not picking that thing up. So we were, we were working with the Cobra, uh, king Cobra. Oh my God. Oh yeah. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not. Was it huge? Oh yeah. He was a big one. And so they were showing us, they like, oh, then they just turned him loose on the ground.
And the g the, the guy, the subject matter expert on this, and he, he really was, he'd been bitten by, he, one of our officers had been bitten by a cobra a few [00:34:00] times and he is developed a, uh, an immunity to the antivenom. What? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's. What he was on TV shows and stuff like that. Yeah. He, he doesn't even, his thumb is permanently crooked because it did all that nerve damage and Nero, you know, nerotic stuff in his thumb.
But anyway. Oh wait,
Seth Hall: so he's immune to the antivenom or He is immune to the venom itself. Antivenom. So the antivenom does not work for, if he
Chris Powell: gets bit, he's dead. Oh. And he still handles and he's handling a Cobra. Oh yeah. So he throws a Cobra out there on the ground and he said, okay, if the Cobra hits the ground, I want you to take this blanket and throw it over over that Cobra.
Because evidently, and he showed us, he said, as soon as you cover a Cobra like that and you just use a Bedsheet. And, um, he, and he says, soon as it gets covered up, that Cobra's gonna raise its head off of the ground, and you'll be able to see exactly where its head is at that [00:35:00] point. So that was his technique.
That was his technique he said. If you can't see its tail, take your snake hook and just take its head off. Just do like a Mickey metal swing and kill that sucker. He says, do not try to get it, get it off the ground. You know, that is Oh,
Seth Hall: wow. Yeah. We were taught in our training that he, he could 5%, he,
Chris Powell: he could, could he?
He could. Well, but he didn't want us to, you know, that's, yeah. Duh. You'll end up with a crook thumb. Don't worry. If it hits the ground and I can see its head through the sheet, I'm gonna shoot it with a shotgun. Okay.
Seth Hall: Yeah. Hey, if you haven't seen a Gaon Viper, look at them. They are so cool looking. Oh, oh yeah.
They're, these are like a pile
Chris Powell: of leaves. Yeah. They make, yeah, they make my skin crawl. Man, you walk in, we had these, this building that was lined with all these snakes and stuff, and you walk in and they're all sitting there looking at you through the glass, and I was just like, I mean, I'm not scared of snakes at all, but that, yeah, me neither.
But that was eerie. When you, when you stand there and you can look. Eye to [00:36:00] eye with a, a timber rattler or any venomous snake, you know, the pupils going up and down and stuff. It's just like, ugh, it got spells on you. They'll get
Seth Hall: you, Ugh. Yeah. I'm not afraid of snakes at all, but that doesn't mean I don't give them a serious amount of respect, and I don't like when people have pet ones and they want you to hold it.
Ah, I'm not about holding snakes. Nah, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. I, I'm like, yeah, nah, I'm, I'm cool. Like, I'll hold when
Chris Powell: I guess, but I have no problem, like, you know, catching the rat snakes and Yeah. Stuff around here. My wife, my wife will go outta her way. I came up, I was coming home one day and came up the hill and top the hill going down the road and we used to live right next door to her parents.
So her and her mom used to run around together all the time. I come up over the hill and my mother-in-law's car is sitting in the road and my wife's standing up on the bank of the road. And they're talking and I can see my wife pointing and she's pointing to the left and she's pointing to the right and she's [00:37:00] mo motioning her to come forward.
And I pulled up beside him and I said, what are you guys doing? I looked down and there's a king snake in the road and my wife is trying to direct my mother-in-law on where the tire needs to go to run over the snake king snake. That's how, that's how much. But they do, it doesn't matter. A snake is a snake and an old snake to them is a, is a dead snake.
I'll just jump outta the truck, grab it, throw it off in the weeds and yeah, leave them alone. You know, that's your
Seth Hall: friend. Yeah. King snakes are humongous, king snake. Little known fact people. King, if it has the name king, that means it prefers to eat other snakes. King cobras are huge snake eating snakes.
Mm-hmm. So even though they're terrible, they are your buddy. Yeah. And uh, king snakes are not terrible and they're always your buddy. I love, anytime I see a king snake, I'm like, yes, that. 10 less rattlesnakes that exist in this world. So, good job, buddy.
Chris Powell: Ricky. Is that the tave is my, is my favorite. Wait, what?
Have you ever heard of Ricky Tiki Tave? You gotta look it out. I don't know anything. [00:38:00] I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna reveal it. It's a book. It's a book and it's about, it's about two cobras and a little vermin that prays on cobras. Oh, that's all I'm gonna say.
Seth Hall: I just Googled it. I'll leave it
Chris Powell: there.
Yep, yep. No, they had a cartoon out of it. It made a one of those little animated shows out of it when I was a kid. Man, it fascinated me. But anyway, so I was like 19,
Seth Hall: 15 ish. I'm just kidding,
Chris Powell: dude. I did see something though today that's kind of, kind of unique. It's, uh, My generation, generation X 1960 was at 1965 to 1980, or 1960 to 85 or something like that.
The last generation to experience life without cell phones, without cable tv, without the internet, without, with, uh, having, uh, no remote control [00:39:00] TVs, you know, some of that sort of stuff. I mean, yeah. That's weird. I mean,
Seth Hall: well, we didn't have the internet really until like the, well, we had it, but it was not widely accessible in New Mexico public schools until like, I remember when we first started taking computer literacy classes, but I was in elementary school and Yeah.
I mean, that was, those were crazy. It is. My mom and dad were just like, kids these days can't even imagine living without a cell phone. They're like, I lived three quarters of my life without one. You know, like, yep. It is crazy. The world is changing so fast. Hey, I was gonna ask you, is that the craziest thing you ever saw was the snake den?
Chris Powell: Oh, you mean as an officer? Yeah. Um, we got sidetracked. I wanted to
Seth Hall: ask you that because I, I asked him, I was like, what's the craziest thing you ever saw? And he was like, yeah, we walked into a barn and there was like 500 elk and antelope skulls in there. And I was like, whoa.
Chris Powell: Hmm. Um, those are pretty, that was pretty wild.
But, uh, yeah, I don't know. [00:40:00] Probably, maybe, I don't know. Dumbest person you
Seth Hall: ever encountered?
Chris Powell: Um,
Seth Hall: I like you, you really
Chris Powell: had to think about that one. There's been so many, Seth, there's been so many. That's a, that's a hard, I mean, there's, there's several that come to mind. Um, probably, probably the guy that, and this is just a funny story.
It has nothing to do with Hounds. We were responsible for watercraft enforcement in the state of Indiana. And, um, we would get detailed to go work different reservoirs in our district. And we were working a reservoir one night and a boat goes flying by us and it's pitch black, nighttime speed limit on an Indiana lake is 10 miles per hour.
That's it. And I mean, it's suckers on plane and they're just, did you have lights on your boat? Oh yeah. We had lights on our boat. We're sitting and there're just like, screw it. Yeah. We're [00:41:00] actually talking to another, another bunch of boaters, you know. So, but the only, the only thing that you have is navigational lights, you know, there's no red and blue.
Mm-hmm. We're not riding around out there at the red and blue light. Sure. Of course. Of course. So they had a new clue who we were, and they came real close to us. It's like, Hey, you guys have a nice evening, we're gonna talk to these people. And, uh, we get 'em stopped and the guy drive. There's, there's two men and a woman in the boat, or two, two men and two women in the boat.
And the guy driving. Man, he was freaking sloshed. He was just like, he was so drunk. He didn't even know what he did. He was, he was wasted. And, uh, we, we ran him through all the field sobriety tests and all that stuff, and we got him in our boat. We, he couldn't get a life jacket on hardly. We, his wife had to help him put a life jacket on.
That's how drunk he was. That's, that's actually one of the, the [00:42:00] things that we look at, it's like, how hard is it to put a life jacket on? Right, right, right. But when you, but when you're drunk, And it's not something that you do all the time, man. You see all kinds of stuff. You see 'em putting 'em on upside down.
You see 'em trying to, like the old Mae West, the orange ones that wrap around your head. Yeah. Yep. You've been putting 'em on since you're a kid and the, and the strap falls down behind you. I've seen guys try to put 'em on, like up through their crotch and hook 'em in and, and all kinds of stuff. But this guy get your g-string on.
He got, he had the G-string life jacket going on and, uh, so we get him over in a boat and we've, we're, now we've got the two women. Were not intoxicated. Both men were, the women didn't feel comfortable operating the boat. So what do we do? We hook a rope up. We're towing 'em into the dock as we're going across the water.
We can feel the, the I'm s i, we can see that the, the boat and feel the boat being engaged, the other [00:43:00] boat being engaged and put into reverse. The other guy in the boat had taken the helm and was trying to back up and, and doing, you know, trying to break the hubs out. Bob's we gotta go. Yeah. He's like, oh, we're getting away, you know, and I shine my light back there.
I said, turn that engine off. And he flips me off. So we just, we just come back around. I reach in, get him hooked up, drag him over on my boat and he was just cussing me and, and all this other stuff. And, um, get him cuffed, set him down. He's, we put a life jacket on him and when we cuff somebody, we always transport him with a, the old Mae West Life jacket.
You know, you don't want the head above. Yep. Yeah, they can float. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, so we get 'em all the way to the dock and the whole time he's just running his mouth, running his mouth. He's like, I gotta take a leak. I gotta take a leak. I'm gonna piss in your boat, and blah, blah, blah. And, uh, we get all the way up there.
He goes, I'm telling you, I [00:44:00] gotta take a, take a whiz. And his wife says, says, I'll help him. I'll help him do it. And this, this is a woman that loved him here. Here's her drunk husband that she's, she's already been making an ass out of himself. Oh yeah. Yeah. She's already had her whole evening ruined because of her drunk husband.
The night on the lake is down the, down the shitter and she knows she's gonna have to come and get him. Maybe. I don't know if she went and got him or not, but she says, Paul, help him. So I said, okay. So there was some rip wrap there and he was trying to walk down over the rip wrap and I was like, don't go over the rip wrap.
Don't walk down over that rip wrap. And he's like, I'm fine. He, and he almost fell down. I reached out and I grabbed him. I turned my flashlight on and he goes, he says the wife was fed up too at this point. She was fed up with him. She was fed up with me. She was fed up with the whole situation. So I turned my light on and he goes, what are you trying to see?
Something you haven't got? And I said, just deadpan. I said, no, sir, I'm just trying to make sure she can confined it.[00:45:00]
Seth Hall: No.
Chris Powell: Did she at least laugh or she just completely over? No, no. Her reaction, she looked at me and she looked at him. She's like, both of you just need to shut up. Just shut up.
Seth Hall: That's awesome. Well, no, it's, I mean, uh, that's a good one. It sounds like, uh, I don't know how you, how do you like, deal with people like that? You know, cuz they're just asses, you know what I mean? I guess you just gotta be stone cold about it. Huh? You just gotta not care at all. Yeah,
Chris Powell: you just, yeah, you just, you don't, no, that's not actually, that's not actually right.
I mean, I've, I've taken guys to jail, ridden to jail with them and had some pretty good talks with them. You know, the guys are like, man, my, my freaking life's a wreck. And you just talk to him all the way to jail. You know? It's like there's, you don't have to live like that. You don't have to make that choice, you know?
I imagine I've shared the gospel of Jesus Christ and in my truck with guys on the way to jail. Damn. That's, and I pray you [00:46:00] should write a book. I've prayed with him. I prayed with him in the Sally port before I took him into jail. I really have. Wow. Yep. Damn. Not everybody, some of them, some of 'em you did.
The devil was there and you weren't gonna pray with those. You know, you prayed for him, but you weren't praying with him cuz you didn't know who you were praying too. After that guy
Seth Hall: took a leak, he probably calmed down and you guys became best friends. I can see it, right? No,
Chris Powell: no, no, man. He doesn't send cards or anything like that.
So he didn't show up at my retirement party. Hey, did you ever
Seth Hall: do that thing where you guys set up the deer decoy with the luminescent eyes and shooting spotlight, like people's spotlighting deer? Did you ever get to ambush people's? I, I, that's what I, when I wanted to be. No, when I was considering being a conservation officer, that's what my dream was, was to catch night poachers like, like um, spotlight ERs and stuff.
Do you ever
Chris Powell: do that? Yeah, yeah. We were, that was actually, um, started. There was some work being done with wildlife decoys or actually called, you know, wildlife decoys. People call 'em the dummy [00:47:00] deer or whatever. But there was some work being done with wildlife decoys right before I got hired in the late 1980s.
I got hired in 1990 and so we were on the front end of that and it was amazing. But it was so fun. It was amazing. We'd, we'd get all these taxidermy deer and stuff. It started out with just things like, uh, those reflective, some reflective tape. And you use what's called on I board and, and I
Seth Hall: board like e y E or like I
Chris Powell: I E Y E, like, oh, we call 'em I boards.
And you just set I boards out in a field, in an area you always went to areas that you had complaints of somebody driving through there and Jack Lightning at night shooting deer from the road or shooting whatever. And so they started out with I boards where you just used two piece of elect, uh, tape. Or reflective tape on the end of, of, um, Thumbtack.
What? Yeah. And you [00:48:00] just, and
Seth Hall: that's enough. People wouldn't even see a deer body. They just see the
Chris Powell: lights you got. Yep. You gotta put 'em out far enough where, and you're just, at that point. We, we would get a few people that would shoot at those. But the thing we're looking for is those people that were shining, you know, looking for the game.
Yes, yes. And then you'd stop 'em. And if they had a firearm, then that was a violation, so. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But then it trans it, I said this back in the 1990s, and I'll get back to this, but it trans uh, it, it moved on and developed into robotics and stuffed animals and, and SBOs and, and all kinds of stuff.
You know, real taxidermy mounts. And What's a serbo? Uh, it's an electric motor that, that operates off of a remote control, like for remote control. Control. So they can move its head and stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We had, we had deer that, we had deer mounts that could flick an ear, move their head. Flip their tail, um, things like that.
That's awesome. Yeah. But people caught onto it real [00:49:00] quick. You know, they caught into, caught onto it so quick. I mean, they, they had to see breath coming out of it and taking a step or two and, you know, the optics got better. And back in those days,
Seth Hall: all you'd have to do is see the spotlight and then you guys have a, a, a justification to pull over someone.
Chris Powell: debatable. That's debatable whether or not you actually do, you know, some guys would say that it's, um, they would wait to see probable cause for the stop. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, a, a traffic violation or something like that. Some, some attorney or prosecutors would say that, you know, casts in the ray of a white light across traffic lanes is actually a traffic violation.
So you can make the stop in Indiana. In Indiana. Um, but the, the. The thing that most people don't understand, and even a lot of police officer officers don't understand, is you don't have to have probable cause to stop [00:50:00] somebody. You just have to have a reasonable suspicion that they're commit. They're, they're either commit about to commit or they're committing a crime.
You know, that's called a Terry stop. Terry versus Ohio. You have to have a reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is a foot. So the magic of that all happens in the report writing afterwards. You know, you've gotta show that you had so many documented, uh, complaints from this particular area of this particular activity, and you were working this area for that activity.
You know, then this case, it was Jack lighting and somebody was coming down, and now somebody's out there shining a light around. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So there's your reasonable suspicion. You've got so many calls, you've found the dead deer. Somebody's been doing something. So now you've got that reasonable suspicion that that.
Seth Hall: going on. Well, you know, I was gonna say, I've been pulled over. So spotlighting in New Mexico is illegal if you have sporting arms and you're shining into areas that could contain livestock and wildlife, which is essentially anywhere. But [00:51:00] I've been pulled over eight years ago when I first started hanging with dogs, I would spotlight outta my truck and I had a custom wooden door that'd fall down in my Tacoma, like window down.
And my pointer would jump out and chase stuff. Mostly rabbits. But like I got pulled over two times and uh, I never, uh, the both times as a sheriff and both times he is like, Hey, what are you doing? And I was like, ah, I'm spotlighting for this dog. And he is like, do you have any weapons in the car? I was like, no, I have nothing.
Just his dog. And I had my proclamation ready with all the bookmarks and highlights on every Ving. And both times it was like a crazy, pleasant experience. He was just like, oh, okay. Looks really fun. Yeah, have fun. And I would just like keep going on with my day or not. Yeah.
Chris Powell: So anyway, yeah, Jack, right, Jack lighting rabbits used to be a big deal in Indiana shooting, obviously.
Seth Hall: yeah, yeah. That's weird. Isn't. Yeah, I guess, I mean, it's common, I guess kids do it all the time here, but it's always out in the middle of absolute nowhere. So I don't know. It's never really a, I guess if you're doing it in a populated area, that'd be a problem. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Did you [00:52:00] ever, uh, did you ever, um, well let me ask you this cuz you're on the, Hmm, I don't know how to ask this question because I don't wanna, I don't wanna say it's stupid.
You have been on both sides, you know what I mean? You are an avid hound hunter yourself. Mm-hmm. And you also are a conservation officer. Did it give you a unique perspective to kind of live in both of those worlds and kind of bridge that gap? I know you've used it obviously to amazing advantage for the Hounds on XP podcast mm-hmm.
To give legal advice to coon hunters. But when you were an officer, do you think it helped you kind of bridge that gap?
Chris Powell: Um, you're right. It, it, That's the inspiration behind this podcast. You know, one of the things that when I got hired, we were right on the tail end. We're just coming out of the major fur boom.
That, that peop the people my age and older will understand as the, the fur trade, you know, the fur boom era. So what year was [00:53:00] that? What year? It would've been, it would've been through the middle set, 1970s to the mid 1980s. That's when you could get, you know, $40 for a raccoon. Whoa. For a raccoon. Pel, you know, Fox, red Fox in this area were, were going for 60 to a hundred dollars.
And, and so you didn't see road kill raccoons on the road in those days? What are they getting now? Get it into perspective. Oh my gosh. I think you gotta pay fur buyers now to take 'em. Yeah. Like it's worth one, one or two. Yeah. One or $2 for a two x, you know. Yeah, it's crazy. $2 for a big coon that, yeah, if you can find somebody to buy 'em, most of the fur buyers around here quit buying coons.
Why they can't, they can't sell 'em. What are they gonna do with them?
Seth Hall: And yet, in the 80, in the late seventies, you could get $40 for one. I wonder, oh yeah. With inflation, what that would be today. Okay. Yeah. So I'm glad you said that. You need to put that in perspective cuz dad is an incredibly valuable animal.
Chris Powell: Yeah. Yeah. You could, uh, I don't know what would that be? $120 for [00:54:00] a raccoon now? Probably prob, probably, I mean, somewhere in that range. Yeah. Yeah. $40 was, was a, a big deal. I remember, you know, my grandfather made 40 or a hundred dollars a week working, you know, people worked for a dollar an hour in the, in the 1960s and then the, by the mid seventies you can get 40, you can get a whole work's worth of week's worth of pay outta one raccoon.
Seth Hall: in 1979 is equivalent purchasing power to about $212
Chris Powell: today. Thank you, inflation. Holy crap. Yeah. So what that led to, oh my gosh. What that led to was just like any time that you put a dollar value on a wildlife resource, then it's gonna be exploited. So what we were seeing, there were a lot of great trappers out there and a lot of great hounds men, a lot of great coon hunters, the ones that caused all the problem were the people that are, you know, now they're, they're stripping wire and cooking [00:55:00] meth and stuff like that.
Cuz that's where the money is. They don't care what it is. They just wanna make money and they don't wanna work. Yep. So we had a lot of people back then who, I'll tie this all together, but we had a lot of people back then who were, who would smoke dent trees and set woods on fire. Try to try to, they would, yeah.
Trespassing, um, you know, cutting fence and driving through agricultural fields. They would just trespass leave gates open. Livestock running. They're criminals. Yeah. Yeah. They're just criminals. They don't care about your property. Those are not hounds when those are not hunters. So what happened? You get that bad element that infiltrated because of the money and the fur trade.
Then when the, when the money dried up, they went away. But the reputation of the coon connectivity stayed. The, and all the things that the, the game wardens had to deal with from that time didn't go away. You know, I, I got hired with guys that lived through that [00:56:00] whole thing and lived through that whole nightmare.
And, and when they found out I was a coon hunter, as a, as a rookie recruit, you know, man, they laid into me. It's like, ah, we got a damn coon hunter. We got a, you know, we got a coon, ah, coon hunter. How'd you get in here? You know how, when it, you know how to know, you know when to uh, how to tell one of coon hunter's lying, you know?
And sir, yes, sir. When his lips are moving, you know, You know, that that's just was a standard answer and I heard it all. But the thing that, thing that game wardens failed to realize is that most of the bad coon hunters, the bad players that, that were out there hunting raccoons and trapping raccoons and, and basically poaching raccoons, they all moved on to something else.
You know, they were stealing timber. They were snagging paddlefish, they were stripping wire off of construction sites. They were criminals. That's, that's all their deal was. [00:57:00] And, but so, so the coon hunter was, was extremely misrepresented and misunderstood following that because all the Sirius coon hunters that just hunted for the love of it, they didn't quit when the fur prices went.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, so as I progressed in my career, I saw that the stigma was still there, and. I never liked it. You know, you would see officers that would, they would change their days off so that they could attend a Ducks Unlimited or a National Wild Turkey Federation banquet, you know, so that they could go to that on duty, but they wouldn't stop at their local coon club and stop in and, and talk to these guys.
Cuz those are coon hunters. Right? Those are right. We're not, yeah. I'm not talking to those guys. So that's, that's some of the, the stigma I saw and, and some of the [00:58:00] misunderstanding of them and, and coon hunters weren't fair either. You know, this is another thing we ought to talk about is the policy making and stuff like that, but well, we'll explain.
Well, anytime you see, like you, you'll see, you still see it, especially on the, on the social media. You know, somebody will make a post about something they don't agree with in wildlife management. So their favorite target. Yeah, favorite target is what? Yeah. Their favorite target are the biologists or the game wardens, you know, because we're the ones that are out there in the field doing the work.
Yeah. And we're the face of these departments that we work for. And there are times when we have to do things that, you know, if you look at letter of the law stuff, if I enforce the law to the letter, there aren't any [00:59:00] reasons that can contribute to that. There's no excuses for it. If I'm just black and white.
And when you get an officer that takes a case at face value, you know, I'm standing under a tree. It's July, I've got a rifle, and I just shot a raccoon out of a tree cut and dry case. Right. It used to be, used to be as a violation, but through the work of organizations like the Hoosier Tree Dog Alliance, now you've got written permission and you can assist the agricultural community.
You can sit assist homeowners with written permission to do that stuff. So that's what I put my energy into was working on the Hoosier Tree Dog Alliance and going to those Fish and Wildlife Conservation Councils and making friends with those, those other people. Now, the problem I had as a game warden, and the thing that that a lot of hounds men are unfair about towards biologists and game wardens [01:00:00] is we love to hunt.
We're not anti hunters. Mo, for the most part. You know, most people that come into this profession, there's certain states that are starting to really get away from this. Certain colleges that. Pushing our wildlife professionals in directions that aren't gonna be conducive to hunters in a few years, I'm afraid.
But most of the experienced biologists and conservation officers have such a deep love for wildlife that they're willing to dedicate their life to it. And I've, I've used this example before. Most of the biologists that I know are, are very intelligent. They could be making six figure incomes with, you know, as nuclear physicists, you know, they don't as engineers, but they chose the science route of biology and, and that's what they, it's a huge pay cut for 'em, really.
They're, they're sacrificing a lot to go out there and [01:01:00] work on wildlife management issues when they could be working the private sector, even if they're a biologist for a, a Texas ranch. You know, managing what? Managing quail. You got your house paid white tail. Yeah. Whitetail. You got your house paid for, you got your truck paid for, you got all this stuff paid for.
But it's like, Nope, I'm gonna do this because this is important.
Seth Hall: And we lose. And you got dumb ones like me that just like to look at jackrabbits. Yeah,
Chris Powell: no doubt. I wasn't including you in those ones that make making six. So two plus two. I said most seven. I said most. No, no. I, I, I often include you in that conversation.
So that leads me to this part. What happens is, is guys like me, we get disgruntled with the politics that get attached to wildlife management. You know, and you'll get there. I'm sure I do. I already am. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And, and there's just [01:02:00] so many, the things that, that often escapes people is it's not the game war, it's not the biologist way up the chain from that.
Game warden you're seeing sitting in his truck several levels above him. You go all the way through the rank structure of, of that department, that department, and then you get to executive assistant directors and then you get to the director of the department and then you get to uh, uh, a person in the governor's office that knows the director that he reports to.
And then you get to the governor. The governor appoint that director for that director of your dnr, fish and Wildlife, whatever you wanna call it. That guy doesn't have to know anything about Fish and Wildlife Management. In my career, we had a guy, that was when I started, we had a guy that was uh, uh, in charge of the public parks in Vigo County, Indiana.
They got appointed by the governor who was also from Vigo County, Indiana. [01:03:00] So yeah, this old guy was over here doing his thing. He was. He was getting all the support and he was talk, saying the right things and looking real popular. And next thing you know, he's the director of the DN R. And guess who takes orders from the director of the DNR In n d?
Yeah. Yeah. Chris. Chris Powell sitting out here in his truck, Seth Hall out here, you know, doing biology work. He sets the tone, he sets the direction. So, and politics are always a bad thing when it comes to wildlife management comes to anything.
Seth Hall: You're right about that. You're right about that. Yeah. It comes to anything.
Yeah. And the problem is that, you know, social media has brought us all together in a way that allows us to communicate, but everyone seems to become a wildlife expert the second they get behind a keyboard. And we have lots to learn. And I'm not a wildlife, you know, like, you know, you're
Chris Powell: a rat biologist.
Yeah. Yes, yes.
Seth Hall: And so, and so, like what I'm saying is, [01:04:00] Don't you disrespect? That's an amazing animal. So anyway, um, yeah, it there is, it's so complicated. It's so complex. Look at, use what Python Cowboy was saying as a metaphor for how the pet trade was actually helping get rid of an invasive animal. I mean, you wouldn't, this is, there was a overpopulation, I'm gonna use this as a perfect example of how complicated wildlife management get.
I'm gonna keep it in a nutshell. There's a place off the coast of California, there's a set of islands out there. They were colonized by people and they released all kinds of animals out there. There was like buffalo and mule deer let out out there. Anyway, there was a channel islands that's, they're called the Channel Islands.
There's a channel island fox out there. This is really cool. Native Americans would go to those islands and get those foxes because they've lost pretty much all of their fear, instinct from predators, cuz there was no predators. And you would, the first colonists that were got there would say you would go to sleep on your sleeping bag.
Wake up in the morning, and one [01:05:00] of those foxes would be like sleeping on your feet sometimes for the warmth. Like they're just not afraid of people at all. And so their population was plummeting and they, and so, uh, one of the professors at N M S U, he did, he was the one that did this whole study with a bunch of other people, obviously, and their population was plummeting.
And they're like, what is happening? And so they collared a bunch of these foxes. Well, they ended up finding all their gps and radio callers inside Golden Eagle nests. And so then, which we all know, golden eagles are the worst animal ever. And so we next pronghorn, uh, we went to the Golden Eagle. We, they went to the Golden Eagle Nest, found all their collars in there, and they were like, why are the golden eagles killing all these foxes?
Well, it turns out Golden Eagles used to only migrate. They found this after years of studying, going all the way through the food chain from the top to the bottom, golden eagles would migrate away from the Channel island. And they used to, but now that feral pigs lived on the island, there was a year-round food source for them piglets.
Mm-hmm. And they would stay and eat more foxes [01:06:00] and piglets. And so that was the problem. So they had to eradicate all the pigs to help the foxes, and you would never expect that everything is so complicated. Yeah. And so that it's just a, it was just a cool experiment, I guess that kind of shows or a, a cool case study that shows how interconnected and complicated everything can be.
And, uh, man. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's a lot more, it's a lot more complicated than just the coyotes are eating all the turkeys or like, whatever,
Chris Powell: you know what I mean? Right, right. And, uh, you know, it's, it's more, I'm more concerned, well, I'm not more concerned about it. The reason we build this podcast is to try to educate people on what's actually going on, you know, and the, the biologists and the game warden out there are not responsible for.
The, the rules that are being made and the, the, the laws directly. You know, a lot of times you look at some of the wildlife laws that are being implemented, they're totally [01:07:00] unreasonable. They're totally, look at the, look at the mountain lion deal in Utah, or the trapping ban here. That was the trapping ban in, in New Mexico.
But the Utah deal is a perfect example. The, the wildlife professionals out there from my information were secretly cheering on the Utah Homan Association, these groups that were trying to defeat this bill. Um, and then, but it had nothing to do with wildlife management. It had to do with politics. It had to do with, we already said that.
Yeah. Yeah. It had to do with politics. You look at what's going on in Colorado has to do with politics. The wolf is a politically charged animal that, that, that. A lot of money can be made off of for certain groups. And so it's, they've got a lot of pull and Yeah. So,
Seth Hall: and that's the, the trapping band, Roxy's Law, because like a dog got its foot caught in a [01:08:00] foothold trap, you know, and it was just like, it was just a way that people weaponize votes by preying on a feeling that a extreme subset of an anti-hunting min minority is very loud.
Yeah. And yeah, that was a real loss. And I can already tell you every, every pro professional I've ever known and worked with was against that law. Yeah. Even people that had no idea, once you explain it to them, they're like, that's insane. This state is huge and empty. Why is it illegal? You know what I mean?
Right, right. So yeah, that and, and that's what's sad when, when just raw data is always weaponized. I mean, look at, that's the same thing with climate change. Well, I mean, it's a perfect
Chris Powell: example and the ignorance is on both sides. I'm not, of course, I mean, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna. Just sit here and praise game wardens cuz game wardens do some stupid stuff.
I was a supervisor long enough to know that game wardens do stupid stuff too. People do stupid stuff. Yeah, that's exactly right. People make mistakes, people do stupid stuff. But just like the, [01:09:00] the, the, the officers would not stop at the Coon Club when you start showing them that there are people that go to that club that want to use that club for things like hunter education.
Holy crap. Really? You know, DuPont the, a Coon Hunter Club, Coon Hunting Club over here in DuPont started a really good hunter education course and several of the members became volunteer hunter ed instructors because an officer stopped in there and now you've got volunteers who are helping you accomplish your mission as a game warden.
Holy crap. That's awesome. Yeah. Now instead of spending 10 hours my of my day, Standing there teaching the same material over and over, I can stop in for an hour or two hours while I'm on patrol. I can patrol there to it, do what I need to do and then go work on stuff. I can't, uh uh, Avol a volunteer can't go out and enforce fishing game loss.
Yeah. But they can teach on their [01:10:00] it. Exactly. So, and
Seth Hall: it's a chain reaction cuz it's community organic, community based, like
Chris Powell: Exactly. Growth. Exactly. So all these clubs, all, and I'm speaking totally on Indiana, but I know that Ohio and, and Illinois and, you know, the mis Midwestern states all have coon hunting clubs where they hold events and things like that.
Those are all avenues to, to use to recruit more hunters. And we should be utilizing it. Yeah. We should be utilizing definitely, you know, there's no reason why you've got officers changing their days off so they can go rub elbows with, with people that can afford to spend $5,000 on a, on a duck stamp.
Print, assign print, original print. But you won't go talk to these guys over here at the Coon Club. Yeah. Or the kid. Well,
Seth Hall: kids, I mean, that's, that's a good one too. Yeah. The co I would, uh, yeah, I, it's
Chris Powell: man, [01:11:00] but I also wasn't Chris Powell. The world's complicated. Yeah. I also wasn't easy on Coon Hunters though either back in the day, you know, they didn't get a free, they didn't get a free pass because I was coon hunter.
Seth Hall: What's the, uh, what's the silliest thing you ever saw? I'm just gonna ask you that cuz I love those kinds of things.
Chris Powell: There's just all kind, I mean there's a lot of different stuff, but, but one, one, this is kind of a funny story. We were out working one night and we heard a dog tree up this holler. And our mo was, you know, we would work when we would go out and do night patrol.
Especially, and we did, we ran, we ran details back before it was legal to hunt in the summertime. Um, with landowner permission, we would, we would go and work coon hunters through the, through the summertime. It was illegal to be out there killing coons. We knew guys were out there doing it. So that's where we got paid to do.
So we go work it [01:12:00] and, and I knew how, I knew how it happened, you know, because I was a coon hunter. I grew up on the tailgate of a 73 Chevy and pitch on rifles and ditches and, and I mean, all kinds of stuff. I remember when I was a kid, I just had my driver's license and running season was always closed between January 31st and May 1st and Indiana.
Well, I couldn't take that. There's no way, you know, off season. Yeah. We're going, we're, I got a young dog, I need to get him out there. I need to hunt him. And so I called. An older friend of mine who will rename na remain name nameless at this point. I'm not gonna incriminate him. He said, well, we can go right here behind my house, just come over.
And I showed up and I was wearing my Carhartt bibs and I was wearing my coon hunting light. And I had, you know, I had all, I looked just exactly like coon hunter. And he goes, he goes, what are you doing? And I said, we're going hunting. He goes, I'm not going [01:13:00] hunting with you dressed like that. He was standing there and I'd seen this guy, he had all the same gear.
I had better gear of course, cuz he was older and more experienced. But he was standing there in a snowmobile suit and a sock hat. And he was carrying a little flashlight.
Seth Hall: I was broken down.
Chris Powell: He's like, I'm, I'm looking for my cows tonight. And Yep. And my dogs just happened. Gonna gonna happen to be out there running around the dark somewhere.
Exactly. So, so I knew what the game. So what we would do is, is if we heard a dog tree, then one of us would just get outta the truck. You know, we didn't even stop. A lot of times we'd drive down the road and I'd open the door on the, on the passenger side of the truck, and you'd slow down just enough where you could jump out, you know, and, and then the vehicle would just take on down the road.
Well, we were working this guy one night, heard the dog tree, and I did that, got outta the truck, and I was standing up on the [01:14:00] hill above him. I could see his light down there, and then I heard the shots pow. Um, and some guy walks down the road or comes down the road and he stops at this in end, at the end of the holler by this truck, and he starts yelling out his window and he said, he's yelling the law's down the road.
And I'm listening to this whole thing and I'm laughing, and, and the guy down the, the ch just shot this coon. He's like, what? The law is down the road.
What? I can't hear you. And he goes, gang warden. And he is like, and he, he pitches the rifle. I heard it, it, we got real flat, rocky creeks. Now I heard something clanking in the creek. So I let him walk out radio to my partner. He goes down there, he, he talks to the guy at the truck. I walk down through, down into the creek, walking down the creek and I pick up his rifle [01:15:00] and bring it out.
Oh. And I walk out with his rifle and he's, the whole time he is like, ah, I don't know. I heard somebody shooting too. I don't know what was going on. And then I show up with a rifle and I said, and I know, I knew his name, I recognize, I said, is this your rifle? And he just hung his head and he knew at that point it was over, you know, but there's a million stories.
It was night Steve Miller's. Calls it the night I got about Got Weasel bit you. Yeah, yeah. Go. That's a good one. We, uh, no, it was, it was, it was totally a, just a joke. But, uh, we're doing that same technique. Her dog over the hill, truck slows down. I jump out. Well, the grass was high and the count, the county had dug this ditch out the year before and had washed out.
So this ditch was like three and a half feet deep. And when I jumped out, I go to jump down on that ditch. I'm just gonna [01:16:00] go up the other side. Well, there wasn't any bottom to it and my feet got tangled up in the grass. So now I'm kind of hanging face down in this ditch. I've, when I showed up, I, I recover.
I get out of there and, and get over the hill. And I, the guys are just getting back to the truck. And this guy's a good friend of mine and, but I knew what he was doing. I called him later. Um, but, um, He gets back to the truck and I show up and I'm covered with mud. There's mud in the mesh on my hat. Mud smeared all the way down my arm.
I've got mud ground into my gun belt and stuff. And, and this buddy of mine and the officer were both laughing at me and, and my buddy looks at me, he goes, you looks like you've been in places where you could have got weasel bit.
And he, we didn't get him. He, he had made it back to the truck before we got there, but you know, the whole thing was it, [01:17:00] you can't tell me that it's not a game. It is a game. Whether you're a coon hunter or you're a game warden, what do I want to do? Do I wanna go down and, and sit around and try to figure out something to do and check the 200th fishing license at night?
Or do I want to go out? I'm a hunter, I'm gonna go out and hunt and, exactly. And so the coon hunter was what I hunted a lot of times on those, on those nights. The most dangerous game. Yeah. Yeah. But the, the guys also knew that, that it was a game for them too. Cuz they, I've been around long enough, they brag about when they got away, they would tell me, they would brag to me about it.
It's like, you were, you were down on Indian Creek last night, weren't you? I was like, maybe like, ah, don't you lie to me. Yeah. I knew you were down there. The law. The law. Yeah. The law down the road. [01:18:00] But it was really, it was also one of those deals that I knew, um, you know, seriously, besides the funny part of it, the other reason why I did it and, and took it seriously.
And I always tried to treat guys. I remember one night there was a guy that came out and he was with his grandkids and he had, he was packing a rifle. And he walked right past me. I saw him packing the rifle. And um, the guy that I knew, and I, the guy that I'd home with quite a bit, and he had his grandkids with him, and I just pulled him aside.
I said, look, said I wouldn't do anything in the world to disrespect you in front of your grandkids, but you know, what you're doing is wrong and you know what I gotta do. And he's like, yep, I get it. And he just walked into court and pled guilty and there really wasn't any hard feelings about it, you know, but just being able to show a little bit of respect and, and yeah.
Yeah. You know, going, having that [01:19:00] personal relationship is, is huge. So, um, but getting back to the reason why I thought it was important is I knew what a battle it was and what the paradigm was. The, you know, the, the I of the wildlife managers and professionals. About coon hunters and I knew that wasn't the right story.
Yeah. I knew that that story, that they're, you know, they're all a bunch of dumb hicks. They're all that, you know, they're no bunch of no goods. If, if, if you know, they're out throwing your property, you better lock up your gas tanks and, and all this other garbage that I heard in my circles. It just wasn't true.
So I wanted guys to understand that you don't, we have to be better. We have to do better. We have to show that we're not the guys that are just looking for the opportunity to break the [01:20:00] law any chance we get. And that we, that we do add value, that we are valuable, that we can teach Hunter Ed, that we can get involved, that we can, you know, just do a lot of good things.
We can help farmers and, and important agriculture and, and all this stuff. So when I would go out and enforce laws like that, it was more of a deal like, hey, We're not gonna get where we need to be, as long as you're out here trying to see what you can get away with. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that was part of the motivation too.
I, uh, yeah. It's a lot. I,
Seth Hall: I think about that often. You know, what, how different my life would've been if I'd taken that route too. Overall, I feel like, you know, I mean, did you love it in the end?
Chris Powell: Were you, you happy you did it? Oh, yeah. I don't have any regrets about doing it, you know, it, um, no regrets at all.
The, um, it's, it is a, like a different part of my life, a different chapter of my life. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm, [01:21:00] I'm, I'm not a guy that sits around and misses it. I don't miss it at all. I don't think about it much. Um, it was, um, there were times. But there were times when, when, yeah, it was like, this is, this is what I'm supposed to be doing right now.
You know, when, when Columbus, Indiana went underwater and we were rescuing people out of, uh, flooded cars in the Cummins engine parking lot, you know, we launched that boat, we launched that boat on the, on the west, on the east side of, of, uh, Otter Creek, right at the tech center, launched the boat. The water was so high, we launched it in the parking lot of the tech center.
And when we got out to the mainstream of that river, the, the freaking R creek, this is a creek. And if you saw this, it's normally like 40 to 50 feet below the State Street bridge. And it was so high that it was actually lapping up and hitting the bridge. [01:22:00] So when I turned that boat out into the current, you know, turn it upstream and, and going across that water, it was freaking intense.
The water was running over over 10th street and washed us into the parking lot. Dang. And we were, we were picking people up off of the rest of their cars and transporting 'em around the building. Wow. So, you know, when you do stuff like that and you know that you're making a difference, the disheartening side was when you had to go out and you knew that there was no reason that a law existed on the books, but your department expected you to enforce it.
And you had to, you had to, you know, look at sportsmen and try to convince them or, or I didn't even do that. You know, they know what you represent through that uniform and because somebody's brother-in-law wants to do this or that, now all of a sudden we've got this new [01:23:00] regulation that doesn't make any sense.
Mm-hmm. And that, that part of it was ultimately what, you know, drove me out the door. Mm-hmm. The bureaucrats and the politicians. I simply get that. Uh, a good example is when we, um, introduced center fire rifles into the state of Indiana. We always hunt 'em with slugs, muzzle loaders, and, um, um, that's it When we first started, no shotguns then?
Yeah, slug. Shotgun. Oh, okay. Yeah. Alright. But that'd be slugs. But then we went to center fire rifles and the legislators for, for back it up a year. The d n r director had the opportunity to implement a center fire rifle season, and he failed to do that even though the majority of Indiana hunters said, yes, we want to, we want that season.
But he knew, he knew that if he didn't do anything, the [01:24:00] legislators were gonna do something with it next year. So instead of his, him getting his hands dirty, Or putting his name on this thing in any way. He just did nothing lame. Duck, he lame, ducked the whole thing and just let it sit there because he knew that his buddies over in the legislature were gonna pass this thing.
And when they did it, they screwed it all up. You could hunt with a 30 30, you could hunt with a 300 win mag. You could hunt with with a a seven millimeter, but you couldn't hunt with a two 70. You couldn't hunt with a, yeah, you couldn't hunt with, they excluded. They excluded certain rifle calibers in the political process.
So what happens when you start specifying the calibers that you can hunt deer with? You got the 300 wind mag up here. You got a 2 43 down here, and there's tons of rifle rounds in the middle there that you could Yeah. You could deer hunt with. Yeah. But they weren't listed. So now it's a violation. You come up on the guy with a two 70 and it's a [01:25:00] violation from him to have that rifle out there.
And we had officers out there writing tickets because, oh, his buddy's stand there with 300 win mag. His other buddies stand there with the 30 30, but you've got a two 70 holy smoke. You're the, you know, who are you, you know, like Al Capone type stuff, you know? It's like, this is not a, I told my guys, it's like the only time I wanna see a ticket like this come in here is if there's another violation that goes with Yeah, compound it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, in the process he also was using the two 70 rifle, so you can't ignore that. You have to document it, so it goes in your report too. Whether it gets filed by the prosecutor or not was up to the prosecutor. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. But just to go out and be like, I wrote 25 tickets today for guys hunting with two 70 ties.
That's not a feather in your cap, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. No, that's, that's, that's crazy. [01:26:00] But coon hunters, hounds men in general. You know, it's, uh, you've gotta understand that. Um, we couldn't kill coons in the state of Indiana before, I don't know, 2012 maybe. I think that was, we couldn't kill, couldn't kill them.
Well, in the summertime. Oh, in the summertime, yeah. I was like, there's a set season November 8th. Got it, got it, got it. First. All other times of the year that were off limits, you couldn't take, take raccoons. And so, but we got together and we united and we got to know the right people and the deer hunters helped us get this through where we could, we could get that pa we could, we could take raccoons throughout the year with written permission from the land.
It's not that black and white, but, but that's what happens instead of, instead of just sitting back and saying, well, I don't agree with this. Well, I'm gonna go out and break it anyway, [01:27:00] man. Get involved. Get organized. Yeah. Get organized, get involved, and you can get stuff done and you can make friends. And we had to help them with some deer hunting rules and stuff like that.
Get stuff pushed through. But that's what it's about. Yeah. Use that. Use that. And that's politics to build alliances. Yeah. Yeah. So you use politics to your advantage so that you can, you can Yeah. Secure your freedoms and, and open up new opportunities. I would, uh, yeah.
Seth Hall: I think we all hunters, uh, we've talked about this a million times.
I think we all have a lot more in common than we don't.
Chris Powell: Yeah. You know, it's, I always use this example, you know, the gang bangers are never gonna get back nines legalized. You know, it's not gonna happen. And what I mean by that is, Going out and shooting stuff up only builds fire and resistance from law enforcement and polic policymakers.
But when [01:28:00] you, when you're responsible, you, you decide that you're going to be a good steward of the resource, you show up. Another, another example, DuPont, that coon Club over at DuPont c Cliffy Creek, Coon Hunters would host a friends of Meca Tuck River Day. There wasn't any coon hunting involved. There wasn't any, any, uh, dog events involved.
They, they launched canoes and pickup trucks, and they went along and they picked up tons of trash along the Meca Tuck River Clean Building, cleaned it up. So then they get their picture taken. They're standing over there with, with pickup truck. They took, slid their dog boxes out and filled them up with trash.
They got these picture taken, pictures taken. It was in the local newspapers. Now, when they need help, They go over to the DNR office and it's like, Hey, we need help. Or they contact their local representative, say, Hey, we need help. They know that there's other things going on that are not just totally [01:29:00] self-serving.
Seth Hall: Community building. Yep. Thing get involved.
Chris Powell: Yep. Western Hounds men have been doing it for years, you know, I know that, you know, they volunteer their time and their gas and everything to, to cooperate in, in large carnivore studies and, you know, hounds men type stuff and, and that's valuable. So that's why they've got, that's why they've got it.
Instead of just sitting back and going, endgame wars and biologists or anti hunters, and they're against us. Bologna. That's, that's baloney. Everyone in
Seth Hall: my unit's a hardcore hunter. Everybody. Yeah.
Chris Powell: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you were a freak if, if you were, if you were working as a conservation officer, we, we knew who they were.
The guys that didn't hunt. They're like, yeah, we play golf. You're not, you're not, you haven't killed a deer yet. No. The weather's been nice. I've been playing golf. It's like, get outta here. You're not welcome here. Get out. Get
Seth Hall: my, my litmus test is are you, do you [01:30:00] like, do you like pronghorn? If you do get outta here.
I'm just kidding.
Chris Powell: Yeah.
Seth Hall: Yep. We've been at it, we've been at it quite a while, brother. And I gotta get some dinner in me. I
Chris Powell: hear you. Yep. I hear you buddy. No, it's, uh, let's wrap this one up. I don't know what we're gonna call this one yet. Maybe coon hundreds and game wardens. What do you think the laws down the road?
The laws down the road. I like that the laws down the road. And you gotta say it like that. The law is down the road. It reminds me, how do you spell it?
Seth Hall: L a u w. The Lao
Chris Powell: Lao. Wow. It's like, uh, that scene from, uh, O Brother where art. Dude, I
Seth Hall: actually have seen that movie.
Chris Powell: Do not Seek the Treasure. That was
Seth Hall: good.
My dad loves that, that movie. Mm-hmm. It's like one of his favorite movies of all time.
Chris Powell: Yep. It is a good one. I'm on Cap. Hey brother. Thanks for [01:31:00] joining me, man. It's a good one. You, me, you joined me. This. Yeah, good point. This is a UND XP podcast. This isn't all mixed up. Thanks for Get outta here.
Seth Hall: It's, it's a habit to say thanks for joining me.
Chris Powell: well, I appreci, I'm glad we got together. Oh, absolutely. All right, man. I'm gonna wrap it up till next week. Thanks for listening to Houseman Next P podcast. Love a game warden and a biologist this week. This is fair chase.