Trailing off the Chart Pt. 2

Show Notes

The Journey on the Houndsman XP Podcast Network is on a quest to find the most elite trainers in the world. Heath goes to Spain, interwebs, to visit with one of the premier man trailing experts of today's time, Miguel Carbajal Porto. Due to a language barrier Heath has Louis Baglietto translate for Miguel. 

Louis is a retired British K9 police instructor with over 30 years in the dog training world. Miguel is a school teacher that was raised with hunting dogs. Miguel switched to man trailing because of the love of trailing. He has written two books, while he is working on the third. Miguel has also invented an awesome tool to help assist him in the training of trailing dogs. (Listen in to hear about it) Louis and Miguel travel around teaching and trailing dogs throughout the country. Miguel's training method is embedded deep in the natural instincts which drive a dog to trail. The three barely scratch the surface on Miguel's training methodologies. There is so much information in this, you may want to listen twice. The Journey is just warming up, you don’t want to miss this one.

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Show Transcript

[00:00:00] The Houseman XP podcast Network is taking you on the journey. Your host, master trainer, Heath Hyatt, will combine his decades of experience as a homan and as a professional trainer that will light the path forward and make our PACS lighter on this lifelong journey to become better hunters and hounds men.

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And there was so much information that I wanted to take away from their knowledge, from all the experience that they had, that I had to do the follow up. They have. I've been gracious to come back and talk and there's a huge time difference in us. So these guys are up late at night where it's just early evening for us.

So I can't tell you about how excited I am and how appreciative I am for you guys to actually come back on and at least finish this conversation up with us. [00:03:00] Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here again.

Thank you. I am very happy to be here again. Yes we're glad to have you, Miguel. So I'm just gonna get right into this because the last time we talked there was a couple things that you pointed, you guys pointed out that I wanna make sure that our listeners really think about. I want, I wanna reiterate about it and I don't want you to guys to elaborate about it in a little more.

The first thing that I thought was so intriguing was that when the anim, so you talked about, I'm talking in circles here. I don't know how I want to put this into words. So we talked about the hunt itself and that the dog, if you want a true tracking dog, a dog that actual tracks [00:04:00] whatever mammal that you are trying to track with it, that it has to be more excited about the hunt than the ending, which would be the harvest of the animal for us.

Or it could be the capture, the tree we tree and furry we tree and take pictures and walk off. So I thought that was very interesting when. We talked about it last, so I want you guys to elaborate about what that means and what it takes to accomplish that, to get that dog so trail minded that he's more interested in catching than he is actual when it's over.[00:05:00]

Yes. Okay.

Okay. We will start off with on the premise that there are some breeds that have more hunting instincts than others. So we start off from there. Okay.

Independently, this is the way that he works his jobs.

So when a dog comes into his hope, whether it's a pup or it's a grownup dog. For the first two weeks, the dog will be working for his meat. So if it's a puppy and it's you feed him four times a day those four times a day, he will be following that little trap, or he's gonna be following that [00:06:00] scent to get his reward.

He starts off for the first two weeks.

Puts food on the actual track because he doesn't want the dog to be looking for that food, but he wants the dog to associate and follow the scent. We remember we talked about target scent. That we were use, used a, water-based baby sh toilet toilet perfume, for example, which we call A target scent.

Normally we use like baby toilet water. Diluted down, right? No alcohol. And the track is laid with that, but there's no food on the actual tracks. The dog's not looking for the food on the track. The dog has the interest to follow that scent, which will get him to his feet.

Understand.[00:07:00]

So when he uses this the toilet toilet water, baby, toilet water is not building up an excitement on the dog to follow the child because it's a very, it's an unnatural sense for the dog. It's not a natural sense. So it doesn't get overexcited on that scent, but it will follow this scent.

So if for whatever reason the dog doesn't follow that scent and he doesn't get to his meal, he won't eat that meal, he will skip that meal. . There's no reward at end, hasn't got to the end.

Four or [00:08:00] five days following this patent, he will understand what he has to do, which is follow this scent to get his when that's achieved, he will suddenly give it more distance. The track that we laying with the target scent will give him more distance. Once he understands that if he follows this scent, he will get his meal. Okay?

Sometimes the dog can't find his meal under those conditions so when the dog is following that trail and doesn't get his feet, because he doesn't get to the end, in his mind, you start thinking, I've got to accept myself on this track, on this sand because if I don't follow it, I'm not going to eat on that track. Okay? Excuse me. [00:09:00] Okay.

A very short track with a high emotional finish at the end, the be thinking of the end

not on the track leads to

And his method, the first thing he does once the dogs have associated that scent to the mill is to extend that distance.

Okay just try to this interview is just upload the Facebook page.

Just finished chatting[00:10:00]

11 days. Difficulties to attract by putting a hot surface, warm surface. So a dog has really got to accept himself following their track,

so the dog has to concentrate more on the track. To get to the end and he starts enjoying the track because that's going what called getting to the end, and he just complicates things. So he really exert himself to get to the end of the world.

He cannot.

Okay, so what's important to recap all this is that it's important that the dog doesn't follow his eyes. He's not using his vision, [00:11:00] right? He's just focusing on the nose. And you make it too short the track. He gets his reward too quick and he's only gonna be thinking about the reward was if you extend the track.

Yeah. He's got to focus yourself on the track and his concentration gonna be on the track and not on the.

When it was much younger and he used to go hunting, he would take his dogs and his pups up into mountainside night in his vehicle and with the headlamps, he would catch the eyes of the rabbits and the dogs would see these and they would get over excited because he was seeing the rabbits.[00:12:00]

And then he thought to himself, how can I be so stupid? Cuz now when I go the other day and I take my pups and I can't see the rabbits, they're more interested in finding the rabbits. Then actually working the track to get the rabbit.

He doesn't want to have anybody running away from the dog or any animal running away from the dog. He wants a dog to have the passion to follow that scent, which is gonna lead him to the, to, to his tray or his, in this case. Yep. So there's no running away of a track layer. There's no running away with an animal.

The dogs don't see [00:13:00] that. They just pick up a scent that they know it's gonna take him or her to where it's, whether it's prey or it's a, so I've got several questions off of that. The first one I want to go back to is how much failure are you willing to accept? And what I mean is that's one of the things I preach is the dogs are gonna fail.

And if we are continuously helping them and, giving them guidance and stuff, then the dog becomes too handler dependent on us, which we do not want. So what is a typical when you're doing this process, do you see the dogs fail four, five times or do you see it up in the 10 to 12, 15 times?

Or is this just something that happens a handful of times? Is there a range in there that's the norm that they do not succeed? Starting off,[00:14:00]

accept accept us.

He's willing to accept hundred percent of failure

with the first week,

you can do 3, 4, 5, or 10 small tracks. And his interest is that the dog does not fail ever on any one of them.[00:15:00]

To fail. He won't help them at all. He won't help Uhhuh not to fail, but he will not help not to fail.

The only aid that he will give the dog is a type of track or the type of trail he sets out so the doesn't fail.

He looks for all the conditions that will go in favor of the dog. Time of day. Temperature ground, good, productive ground not too hot damp. He will he will set up that track on the best conditions you can for a track. So the dog does not fail. He cannot fail and that's the only help he will give the dog the construction of the actual track.[00:16:00]

Okay? So even it's 500 grams a day, he will divide those hundred grams in 4, 5, 6 tracks where it is short one. So a dog and automatically understands that he is got to follow that sense, that talent sense. So he can eat

after the first or second week. He can fail as much as he has to.

He will know that if he is, if he is successful, he is going to find his food and if he's not successful, he's not going to eat. But the first few weeks, the only help he does is to make sure that the chuck he lays down, he's all in favor. The and the cannot faith [00:17:00] for the first couple weeks after that can pay as much as he can.

He wants

evaluates the every day.

So he will be evaluating if the dog has successfully done a 200 meter track. He's not gonna give him a 300 meter track. He's gonna go to a 500 meter track. If he is done that 200 meter correctly. With these,

if he cannot achieve that 500 meter track, he finish the training, there will be no more training that day. They just put him away. If he [00:18:00] does help the dog on that day, the dog will learn and think some help is gonna come to, for me to be able to do

There is nothing better. This is what you have to do, you've got to follow.

Next day he might not put that hundred, might bring it down to 300 or 400. Something that he, he assesses the dog would be able to achieve. Time assessing the dogs and trying to move the dogs to the maximum limits that each dog will allow.

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Yep. So he's going back. If the [00:21:00] dog's not successful and he sees the dog can't be, then he'll back it down a notch. Give the dog a chance to be successful again, and then go backwards. So he's taking two steps towards not on the dead. If he fails if he if today achieves the two meter and the following day, he cannot achieve the five meter he's gonna put away for that day. Because otherwise, if you make another one that's easier, the dog will learn that, Hey, if I fail now, then gimme an easy one. So that's end training for that day. And the following day we'll make that truck, that, that truck slightly shorter.

Yeah. And, excuse me, sorry.

More important is method is divided into three blocks, which is very important that we explain.

The first block on the on, on the formation of these dogs. Dogs always work off on their road. They're free tracking. No help.[00:22:00]

So he believes that the dog is ready to have a handler only behind when that dog can achieve a kilometer track on his own.

In that case, he normally put, so he can evaluate what dog is doing on that track. On the second block, he will follow the dogs on the line, but he will not put any input into it. He's going to be a passive, totally passive handler. He will not put any input. He will not help the dog at all, but he'll be there on the lead[00:23:00]

is achieved. The first block in which he's been tracking on his own by his head is a short lead. Dragging behind the dog has now learned to be for the lead to get stuck on, on, on branches. So as I used, he's accustomed for ugs and pools and stuff from nobody. So he starts to ignore these ugs.

So by the time he starts on the second block, Even though you come behind him on a lead the door would now be used to getting tags and pulls from the lead, which means nothing to him at that moment.[00:24:00]

So in the third block, now he can start to have input in the dog and start to train the dog and give the dog. What information he wants to give the dog correction. But by that time, the dog is now, has now been able to track a whole kilometer on his own. He's got a lot of autonomy and he is really passionate for the track.

Many people start from the first block that is they start correcting the dog. So we lay a track and the dog goes to the left and you know the truck goes to the right. So you hold the dog. And we are doing is train the dog to love the end product and not the actual track to the end product. Cause we are helping him.

So doesn't we are, he's not learning anything. He just says, my, my hand is gonna take him to the end, [00:25:00] which is what I want. The method he uses, by the time you start putting input to the leads, the dog is now autonomous and he already loves tracking. And tracking is what he really wants to do.

So it's very important that in on, during these three different blocks, that the dog understands that he's not going to be successful every day. There will be days when he does not reach his prey and nothing's gonna happen. He's gonna have a track next day, right? So that's where the dog is. The dog's concentration is not on the prey, but on the process of catching his prey.

[00:26:00] And he will understand that there will be days when he will not catch anything. There will be days when he won't reach the end of the track, but nothing's wrong because there's gonna be another de tracking on that track. He might, he will be successful. Developing a very strong on the track.

So if he sees that a dog starts losing interest on the track, for example, what he's gonna do is that a home is going to eliminate any kind of interaction, any kind of working with him, any kind of excitement so that when he goes back to a track, he is really focused and he really wants to do that track.

You want to have fun, let's track. That kind of mentality. So lo Lois I want you [00:27:00] to back up just a second to make sure that I have a clear picture. And everybody listening has a clear picture on how you're starting. So we're, you're given the dog an odor. And explain to us how, like without a foundation, without putting the odor under the dog food, like we had talked about in the previous podcast.

So I purchased a dog today and tomorrow. How do I am I just, am I doing the track whether I do it walking myself or how you guys do it with the electric car and put the track down? Am I walking beside that track to get the dog started or am I just standing at the end of it waiting the dog to pick it up on his own?

Like how does that process start?[00:28:00]

Okay.

Okay. So the drive is not generated on the track, but before the actual starts tracking. Okay.

So uses the classical conditioning. He uses little belt

fork and a squeaky toy for the prey, for example.

[00:29:00] So he evaluates the every day with the ringing of the,

when he has a good conditioning with the belt and the dog goes nuts. Looking for his feet. Sometimes he teach in the sitting room or in his garage or whatever it is at that moment. So what he does is he'll put, for example, a towel implemented with the target scent. And the target scent is that scent we spoke about, which in this case, he uses toilet water, which is a scent, which is not naturally found in the countryside. Dog outside. Yep. Yep. So we call the scent. He will put a towel that's I with this water down scent and the foot football on top.

Okay. Okay. Yep. He rings the bell over the tower of the food coming and dog [00:30:00] will come separat him, and he will leave from the ball, which has that center underneath takes the dog away.

He put something over that that, that cloth brings the bell again and allows the dog to come.

As the is increasing intensity,

it takes it away and puts it back into scrap

two hours. I repeat it again.

In one or two days, the dog is really focused and really excited for that smell to be able to eat.

So the classical condition of the belt has captured the high emotional level in the [00:31:00] dog. That's that. That's how you start with the dog. And that's his association with that scent, which is what's killing him, his food.

Like to capture the emotion, the high emo the high emotion rather than the work. It's that high emotional state. The dog is what he tries to capture.

Yeah. Yeah. Just so my, all right. Just so let me, I'm just gonna re recap what they just said so everybody can understand. So he is still using the, an odor you have to supply an odor. Yeah, he's placing it under the food bowl. He's basically doing pavlo, which means he is shaking the bell. The dog knows bell means food, but while he's eating that food, he's intaking odor, which is imprinting him on the scent.

The who, which is what they want to trail. After that [00:32:00] phase is established is when you can go onto the tracking phase. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Even eventually, because that sc has been associated to the full and the bell. You have a small track of scent. With the no food on the scent nothing to show the door.

There's a scent there. But as soon as the bell goes, because that smell has been already associated, it's gonna start using the nose hits on that scent. Follows it against, yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yep. That's that. So that leads me back to the next question I had is on the visual stimulation. And I feel like in the hunting world, along with the law enforcement world, that is a method that we use. That ends up causing us problems down the road. Especially, you guys are dealing with man tracking and we know that most of our pointy ear dogs like that visual [00:33:00] stimulation anyway, because they've probably done bite work before they've done their tracking.

They've established something else, which is that high drive. So I just want to reiterate that to everybody listening, that, the dog should see the world through his nose, not his eyes. And that visual stimulation is not conducive to what we want the dog to do. And it's gonna cause you some and if you don't do it too much, maybe you get by with it, or maybe you've done it a time or two and okay, the dog goes on to the next phase and you don't have issues.

But there's gonna be some dogs that you spend a lot of time trying to fix that. Because you've used that visual stimulation in a nutshell. That's correct.[00:34:00]

That's.[00:35:00]

all the work that he does, he works with the dog's nose. For example, the dog has to eat, he throw the, he throw the cables in grass. So the dog has to use his nose to find the cable. So he's reinforcing the nose. If he's gonna play with a ball on the dog, with the dog, he make sure the ball lands in high grass, so the dog has to go and use his nose.

So the whole process training, where it's feeding whatever he works it so that it, the note is empowered. And improve. So that dog will depend on his nose and not on his eyes. Otherwise, you get a problem that you that you've actually mentioned. The will just focused on looking rather than using his nose.

So all his work is focused on nose for,[00:36:00]

he learned this one. He was very young when he said before that he used to tell the dogs at night that they would see the rabbits eyes on the headlamps. So the dogs were looking for the rabbits and the old hunters taught him no, you take the dog, whether it's a fresh scent, And the dogs will learn to follow the scent with the nose, under eyes to get the,

to train these hunting dogs. He would say he would go away if he saw the prey, the bow, whatever. He would scare the animal away out to the side of the dog. So the dog, the animal that prey would run away by, leave a fresh scent, and then he would breathe the [00:37:00] dog in onto that fresh scent so the dog would automatically use his nose and not be looking for,

and then he would encourage the doctor to follow that that, that sentence. And from there it, that's what helped him to start generating the system. To track humans as well,

because human scent does not excite a dog like a animal scent. He's using this target scent so that he will follow this target to, to spread. So it starts learning. Yep. And I don't think I don't think people understand how difficult the man tracking part of it is. You touched on it in the last podcast, Louis, is, our dogs are bred for, specifically for hunting.

They hunt, they're genetically programmed to hunt bear [00:38:00] and hunt coon and hunt cats and hogs or rabbits, whatever. But. To track a man, which who have domesticated those animals is really hard. And I've always said this, that it's probably one of the toughest things we do in law enforcement.

Just like asking the dog to bite that person has domesticated this animal and now I'm saying, Hey, I need you to go catch him. So the training that goes into that, sometimes I don't know that people see that end of it, that, and it's not, all dogs don't cut it especially in the apprehension world because they don't have the right nerves and genetically programmed for get grips and stuff like that.

But yeah it's hard to get a dog excited about tracking, man. And one of the things that we really mess up, and I'm guilty of this, I don't do it anymore, I. But we used to do runoffs and then they'd go around the edge of the corner of the [00:39:00] building and we'd send, we'd let the dog track, track and get around the edge of the building and we thought they had to get a bite to reward them.

And that was, that caused a lot of self-rewarding problems down the road. Yeah.[00:40:00]

You, it's a very big area to teach a dog to track by giving a bite has now learned to track, then we can put the bite at Yes.

In hunting, you probably know about it. We've got dogs which track and then they just, they lift up the prey like birds and stuff. Lifting

we've learn to follow. When the move

to train for humans, we need to use the first, which is the one that finds[00:41:00]

have a very stable mind

that hasn't got sufficient concentration. Focus on the.

What he does is he start teach dog to find micro objects. That article searches. Micro object.

And they must always be inside the human sense inside a sample of human sense.

He doesn't like abusing too much of this exercise of micro objects because tracking the dog needs to track, [00:42:00] needs to accent and needs to depend on contacts as well, rather than just be focused on that micro sense.

But he does teach that this access to all his dogs in case he needs this exercise. Improve his it's like trying, it's like training a dog to follow blood of

those must concentrate on droplets of blood, on pieces of hair, on the track, and not be interested so much in the actual, he's got to focus on the,

the dogs naturally are prepared to do that and we need to apply the [00:43:00] correct technique so that they improve on that and they work on that and become masters. Yep. Okay. Alright, so I'm gonna ask him a training question for me. And this is gonna relate to the hounds because my mind's on the fence on how to proceed with this.

So you guys know that we ha my, we have tree dogs, so our dogs have to track the quarry and then tree it, and they have to stay with it until we get there. When you say tree, you mean it's gotta run up the tree and it's gotta stay down on bottom. Do that. Yeah I would prefer the animal to be up a tree, but sometimes the bear will be on the ground and stay on the ground, which that goes from tracking a hot an old track to a jump, which means the bear's up and running.

So the dogs are actually running fresh scent with their head up. And then once they catch it, it'll either climb a tree, it'll stay in bay which turns into a visual if it's bathe. Okay. So I'm thinking about your process and I'm thinking about[00:44:00] imprinting the dogs on the odor at the food bowl and then doing the track.

So if I'm gonna train a young dog and keep the visual stimulation out of this, okay. For it to be realistic for me, I need to make a track to a tree and have that odor going up the tree, because that's what you would catch. So what is your thought process? Process on that, and how do I make that happen?

Where what ha and I'll just give you a little background, Louis, that a lot of people, that's where people mess up in hound training is they hang the, they'll hang an animal or a hide or something in the tree. So the an, the dogs can see it and when they get to the tree, they get real excited and then they'll start treeing.

And I'm, I've been guilty of that. Or if they're out in the wild they'll take a puppy that, they'll take a puppy into a tree that's actually had a bear. We're [00:45:00] just gonna use bear a bear's tree. I'll tie the p they'll tie the puppy up and the barrel come down the tree and they get to watch it run away.

So there, there's that visual stimulation again. How do I get around that is what I'm asking.[00:46:00]

Okay, so when he's training those, for my training, [00:47:00] for example, there are times when he will always put the reward with maybe a center cloth at the end, or he might use a track layer. Depending on what the emotional state on what the drive of the dog is is working with. Okay.

Many people tend to have the at the end only and just work with, Miguel will sometimes just put an article on the ground or a bush, whatever, with the reward there

wearing something that's really, so when the dog has learned to track, now he learns to track, he's going to add that plus bonus at the end, which is a track layer, and he's there.

And because he normally tracks dogs wearing a bell. The dog will actually be wearing the bell with him. The [00:48:00] bell will start with then, is dog's gonna have one of those on his collar

is fairly advanced stay 3, 4, 5 weeks of work. So when he gets to that stage and the dog is working off the lead, he will tell the, he will instruct the truck. When you hear the dog coming, run off

the lesson,

I have to track this cold track.

When I get to a certain point, it's, there's a possibility that tray runs away.

And there I will track him in another way[00:49:00]

because the smell is not gonna be on the ground cause it's not cold. It's gonna be up in the air. And Republic start, his head probably come back, particle floating the air cause it's hot.

He's never had a problem with that. In the next tracks that

has learned that he is gotta do a focus track up to a certain point. So if he had, if he would have to train a or to track bear, for example.

He would work with a, with AK for a very long time.[00:50:00]

Okay. Now it depends whether you want your doctor track or you want to track a hot track. So just let it do with wbo. They know where the boy is. They might use cameras hunting cameras, and it tells him that the boy has been there. He actually has been there. So he come couple hours later cuz his cold track and put out the track.

On that specific point because that's where it's a cold track, for example,

will now learn. For me to get to the bear, I have to follow a very cold track that will lead me to the,

it might take 11, 12 hours each track before he gets to that hotspot.[00:51:00]

That is how the train for, yep.

The trick is not to put from the beginning, not when the dogs see the prayer running away. From they have to pull the nose. To get to where that animal is

running away. There's no negotiation. Cannot see an animal or a human running away

perm per, so when he goes and give seminars, normally it's three day seminars. On the Friday first day, he'll pick the really queen dogs, totally queen dogs, [00:52:00] and it tells the owners, by Sunday, your dogs will be tracking.

Anybody who's listen will be listening to this post and has what will begin, will know that's the way it is. Okay.

Because puts a dog on the first day on human, he puts a dog on his set,

and the second day gets a big surprise. But you at the end of that sense, as a human. Okay. Yeah, no I comp I understand and I get it. In fact, I'm, I've got a litter of puppies right now that are eight. They turn eight weeks old. Oh, today, they're eight weeks old today. I got a little behind the ball on how you start, but slowly implementing the pairing of the [00:53:00] odor and the food with a bear hide and, like I'm really. I'm really curious to see how this plays out because I completely understand your method. I understand exactly how you're doing the process. And it makes them, it's just like imprinting a dog on any type of odor for any type of detection work. You're, they're doing the same process.

And I like the no, no running away. I really, the odor should be the most important thing because if they run away, then it's completely visual. And some dogs will settle. I used to, when in the police days we used to do a lot of runaways. And I had runaways. But now I see, I've had the chance to be able to work with runaways and work without runaways.

And for me, it's much more effective without any runaway. Then we run away. I've tried both. I know what both are like and I would always go for the no runaway. It makes life [00:54:00] so much easier. I just tell me that.[00:55:00]

For him the most important, one of the most important factors when we start getting nose is choosing the correct place where we're going to work. Be ideal place

You put, for example, in the middle of a town that's contaminated with people walking around, that's gonna be very difficult for the dog to understand that. It's good to follow that sense.

On the other hand if it puts down that track, whether it's a human descent or it's target sense in woods or in a field where there's no [00:56:00] human sense, there's no target sense. The is confronting with just this scent that stands out.

If you were to lay the example is if he lays down a track using a wild scent and the whole area is contaminated with the ascent fox scent rabbit scent, it's much more difficult for that dock to learn to follow that sense. Then if he gets a very clean area with a no animal sense and it's presented with the wild, that's the only animal sense be, it's gonna be much easier for a doctor to learn to follow that sense than having contaminated.

He causes using a motorway of scent,[00:57:00]

Will trust his nose a hundred percent. There's no doubts for dog. Yeah. So before we wrap this up, I've got one question I want to throw at you guys and get your take on it. So

So do you believe with your training and experience in the tracking world, That dogs of the same breed and I'm saying same breed. Your hounds your, your shepherds, your malls, your stuff like that have the same tracking abilities. And what I mean is their nose. Because in our world, like in the hunting community, people have hot nosed dogs and cold nosed dogs, which means the hot nosed dogs won't run a track unless it's hot and cold nosed dogs will take a track and trail it.

I'm the belief that it is a training or it is an exposure issue. [00:58:00] What do you guys think? Okay.

See,

Okay.[00:59:00]

Talking about bloodhound and

Prefer a cold track. It's not that they prefer a cold track, it's that they have, they are passionate and mad about tracking. Okay.

So if we want to train other breeds, like Ma Shepherds, Lagos, et cetera, to [01:00:00] follow cold tracks, we need to train the dogs on cold tracks is Lak. So the first thing that Miguel. And his method trains is distance. We first train distance. We're get to do distance kilo kilometer kilometers for kilometers.

For example,

when we have a dog that is capable of tracking kilometers, that dog is now capable of changing, of being able to track on different surfaces. Because in four kilometers, for example, there are lots of changes of surface types.

When those can easily change or work on all these different surfaces,

is now capable of learning new things, new yeah, new things. They're now capable of learning [01:01:00] something new. When they actually master this change of service

kilometers when he has a dog that's doing 2, 3, 4 kilometers, track of maybe two hours from an hour to two hours age years. Then he introduces a block of cold tracks and he works this the following way. He's going to explain now how he works. The cold tracks.

We laid down a track about 5, 6, 7, 8,000

a at the beginning of the track and will leave an article at the.

From is gonna be, it is [01:02:00] gonna be situated exactly where that truck starts.

He wants that sent article that the track has left at the head of the track to be the same age sent as the send has been laid. He doesn't want that sent article to be of a freshest scent than the one has been that has been laid down. So that sentence goes there when it starts to check. So the scent on that goes is as old as the scent that has been laid down, 5, 6, 7, 8,000, whatever it is.

That way you won't confuse the dog at all at this stage. The age of thes are the same. [01:03:00] And the track,

if the dog is now, has been now training 3, 4, 5 kilometers on that day, he's gonna be confronted with a track of only a hundred meters.

During this exercise, we can't work double blind, so Miguel must know where the track is and where it goes. And if he sees that the dog shows some kind of interest on that track. And we know the track is there beforehand and we notice the body language and we see the dog is interested in that sense.

He will verbally. Encourage the dog to follow that sense.[01:04:00]

Encouraged the dog a lot

With a minimum interest. The dog shows on the track. He will encourage him verbally

and from that moment, he will not do any track that is not aged in that block of train. They will all be aged track

until you can see that the dog is showing a high emotional state. When he's working old tracks,

when he sees that the dog is showing this high emotional state west, following these old tracks, he will give. Surprise[01:05:00]

that and the surpris is that one day he's confronted with very fresh track.

That fresh track has got three or four kilometers,

and the next day be confronted with a very age track. 5, 6, 7, 8.

Won't be able to think, I'm not interested in this old track because get something better tomorrow, for example.

So the dough the dough will start thinking the short track is difficult. The old, the age track is difficult, but it's short. I'm gonna get my work [01:06:00] quick, although work harder. And then the fresh track is longer, but it's much easier to follow.

And you start balancing the interest of the dog on the track from tracks and hot.

The will enjoy water.

That's how he does it. Yeah. To cap it off. We don't guess. Method does not mix at the beginning. We do not mix age with distance. Distance will be, the long distance will be a fresh track. An aged track will be short, and then eventually when the balance is there, you can start playing around with agent and distance.[01:07:00]

He works each block separately. Doesn't want, this is difficult. Tomorrow, next week, something is gonna come up.

Yeah he's when following this method, all these dogs have the love for the track. When it's a cold track, whether it's a track, they just love the tracking and they know that both things will take them to, to the to, to the train, the end to the world. Yeah. And they always, he always works in blocks in the beginning, that, that's the important part of this.

You can't just be working long distance and then tomorrow age and then long distance, it's a whole block of short of short tracks, h tracks. And when we see the dog is really now interested in that, then in the next block we'll put in a long track, which is [01:08:00] fresh, but we don't, you don't mix a match at the very beginning.

They've got to have very clear mind what they're working on.

Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that, that we do, that we get in a hurry and we don't take the time to, and I preach this, I'm a big believer in, foundation work, and then you take it step by step. You can't skip from a to h, you've gotta do all the letters in between.

And as train. I think that happens to all of us. Yes. We just we see dogs working from, we just want to go quicker and, I think we're all guilty of that, we're all guilty of it. Yeah.[01:09:00] [01:10:00]

Doesn't like training in a progressive way, for example, today, hundred meters tomorrow, hundred 50, the next 200, the next two 50 meters. Because the dogs learn, this chain of things are getting more difficult and more difficult. And that's when the dog starts losing, can start losing interest because they know that tomorrow's going be more difficult.

The next's gonna be more difficult, the next going be more difficult. So he keeps, once they learn and they know what what expects from them, he will keep guessing the dog, keep the dog guessing. What's next? Is it an easy one? Is a difficult one. Yeah. And that keeps the dog motivated rather than picking up and coming down because he knows that everything's gonna be more difficult.

Yeah. Louis and Miguel, I can't thank you guys enough for coming out today and that's a lot of good information. It makes, again, it makes perfect sense to me and hopefully it makes perfect sense to our listeners. [01:11:00] Is there anything you guys would like to add, just to wrap this up?

So you saying like, all, like all debates and chat. We start talking one thing and more models are open and just close on and on. There's loads and lots of stuff that we can talk about, but he's really grateful that he's been given this opportunity to talk about his method.[01:12:00]

And he believes that's a way to go forward if he can give something useful, somebody that's gonna help him so much better. And it's just a question of everybody putting in, putting in that little grain of sand so we can all just get better and better and learn more from each other from what we have so much passion for, which is dogs.

Yeah. So like I said it's great information. I think everybody can take something away from it. And man, I, maybe one of these days I can get to where, somewhere where you're at so I can just sit through a class and learn myself.

Read the, there's lots of stuff in Mi Miguel's book in English. Yes, I can only advise you. Great book. Yeah. Second one should be coming

Okay. All right guys. I'm gonna let [01:13:00] y'all get it, get some rest and we will keep in touch and I really appreciate you both helping us teach, train, and learn.