BUCK. DOWN. IN. JERSEY

In this episode, Chris and Angelo discuss their recent hunting experiences, focusing on the challenges of self-filming, equipment setups, and strategies for navigating the October lull in hunting. They share personal anecdotes about their gear, the difficulties of filming while hunting, and the importance of commitment in achieving success. The conversation emphasizes the learning curve associated with new equipment and techniques, while also highlighting budget-friendly options for hunters. 

In this conversation, Chris and Angelo discuss various aspects of hunting, focusing on optimizing gear for tree climbing, strategies for navigating the October lull, and targeting mature bucks. They share personal experiences and insights on how to effectively scout and hunt, emphasizing the importance of understanding deer behavior and adapting to changing conditions in the woods. The conversation also touches on the challenges of filming while hunting and the need for a systematic approach to gear organization. 

As the conversation continues, Angelo and Chris delve into their personal hunting experiences, discussing the challenges and lessons learned throughout the season. They reflect on the importance of patience, strategy, and understanding deer behavior, emphasizing that the journey and stories behind each hunt are what truly matter. The conversation also touches on the technical aspects of hunting, including the use of cameras and the frustration of missed opportunities.

 The hosts go on to discuss various aspects of hunting, including innovative camera mounting techniques for capturing the hunting experience, personal hunting stories, tracking deer, analyzing deer size and age, understanding antler growth potential, and deer management strategies. They share insights on their experiences in the field, the importance of capturing the moment, and the science behind deer management. The conversation concludes with Angelos recap of his New Jersey Buck and the first buck of 2024 for the Wing and Tail Boys.

Thank you for taking the time to join us this week and remember…

Success is Just a Commitment Away!

‍

Chris (00:00.282)

So here's the problem. I went back after I switched computers and everything we did, you saved, but my audio didn't save. So we're gonna have to take this one from the top. Thankfully we were only like 15 minutes in. So we're actually recording right now. that was gonna be the intro, but.

‍

Angelo (00:14.67)

That's fine, let's just fucking do a quick little fucking quick joint. Just get it over with.

‍

Angelo (00:23.694)

Alright, so just go ahead, go.

‍

Chris (00:27.694)

I can edit that, you know, the fucking quick joint bullshit. So yeah.

‍

Angelo (00:29.996)

Nah, just start fresh from right now. Nah, yeah, let's just... Because my wife's now gonna walk in, she's got the dog with her at work, so the dog's gonna come in and go crazy.

‍

Chris (00:37.674)

Yeah, of course, of course, of course she is, of course she is. How's it going on guys? Thanks for joining us here for another episode of the Wing and Tail Boys this week. We got an exciting one coming this week. As you guys know, the woods are changing this time of year. As we record, it is Monday, October 14th. We have a wicked weather front coming through. There's a big drop in temperature, but also an incredibly high amount of wind.

‍

So we're going to, goal for today is to kind of talk through our last week, what we've been seeing in the woods, successes and failures. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about how we would maneuver our way through what is considered the October lull, the period that we're in right now. And when you make it to the end of this episode, one of us is going to share a big buck down story for New Jersey, first buck of the year for the Wing and Tail boys. So with that being said, how you doing today, Ange?

‍

Angelo (01:33.346)

Doing good. Started off the day a little rough. I was meeting my dad out for a morning hunt and I was running a little late, set my alarm for PM, classic PM alarm situation. And we got in, got into a tree, kind of got everything going. And then, you know, we had a couple of issues kind of run us off course.

‍

You know, one of the things I just I want to speak on and I'm gonna be releasing some videos this week coming up I'm gonna finish up some editing and then we're gonna start releasing stuff to the YouTube video. We're gonna start getting everybody Used to kind of migrating there after they listen to the podcast or migrating over here after they listen to one of our videos But you know, I I give a lot of respect to the people

‍

Chris (02:21.626)

Or also catching us on a video like watching us on YouTube because sometimes we're to be showing stuff on screen during a podcast. our goal, our goal is to air a video podcast with the audio podcast and let our listeners choose to. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Sorry to cut you off there.

‍

Angelo (02:28.481)

yeah, of course.

‍

Angelo (02:33.258)

Everything is going to be getting improved little by little, you know. So stay tuned. No, it's cool. But, know, I give a lot of respect to the people self-filming. You know, there's a lot of people out there who only post successful hunts and then it looks like they, you know, it looks easy. I don't want to discourage anybody from starting if that's something that you thought about doing or thinking about doing. Definitely do it. The end result will be rewarding, I promise you.

‍

But it's just it is difficult. You know, I'm having a little bit of trouble with my setup right now Some of the camera gear that I have it's just I'm having trouble because the cameras For the people who listen to this podcast already. They know that the first camera I had ended up getting shot That was the first thing I shot on camera this year That was my camera itself

‍

Chris (03:22.01)

You

‍

Angelo (03:27.074)

But now I have invested a new camera. know, buy once, cry once. I bought a new camera. It's a little bit more expensive. And it's a very good quality camera. And I like it. The thing is, I'm babying it. So when I get up into my tree, I get my stuff set up. But the thing is, my camera's on top. But I have to set everything else up on my tree before I put the camera on. And then when I take my camera off,

‍

to pack everything back up, I don't want to shove it at the bottom and then get crammed. So I am always stuck with it in my hands. So I'm going to have to find like some sort of different, I think I'm going to just come up with like a different carrying case that can be attached to my backpack that I can keep the camera separate so that I don't have to worry about it being in my way when I'm setting up. I had a little bit of incident today where I was, you know, kind of fumbling around with the different, having the camera in my hand and I was trying to put the

‍

platform on the tree and my backpack got pinched in between my safety line and the tree. My water bottle that I had today, which ended up being a one liter glass bottle of Mountain Valley, not to plug any names, just so you know, I mean, it's a big, thick glass bottle, wormed its way out of my water holder and it went crashing down on the side of the tree. I didn't have my bow pulled up yet and

‍

It smashed right on my bow, right on the sight, right on everything. So, you know, I'm probably going to have to take a couple of shots now, just make sure it's still sighted in. it's just little things like that. You know, I haven't really had, you know. Yeah, my water broke. I popped my cherry, broke my water, all those things. you know, so, you know, we've we've had a lot of I don't want to say we because, you know, I specifically have had a little bit of trouble getting used to the camera.

‍

Chris (05:03.8)

He's saying it as his water broke.

‍

All that, all that was.

‍

Angelo (05:23.011)

My first deer was, you know, we ended up harvesting that deer, the one that I hit the camera, just deflected my shot. I was actually able to still get a lethal shot on that deer. And then the doe that I had shot was at last light. So, I mean, it was like I had already packed my camera away at that time thinking I was just going to get down. I actually wasn't even going to shoot it. And then I couldn't hold off. I ended up shooting it.

‍

It's a nice piebald deer. It was like a unique thing. It was like I couldn't pass it up. you know, we're really going to be looking to kind of get more interactions on camera. But, you know, we're going through the learning curve. know, I'm. Yeah, but I just it's I I said it, I think it's just it's a rite of passage, I feel like, you know what I mean? I've seen other people who film.

‍

Chris (06:06.151)

Yeah, you gotta slimline your process a little bit, you know?

‍

Angelo (06:18.414)

make mistakes they've been forthcoming about it i've also heard them talk about how difficult it can be and you listen to these podcasts you listen to these videos you watch these videos and you think that it's you're not gonna make those same mistakes because you've seen other people make those mistakes and even though i've tried to avoid them not going into it ignorantly but i'm i'm still having some of those same troubles so

‍

Hopefully it's just a rite of passage and then we kind of iron all the kinks out and then we kind of just become It becomes second nature and it's just easy going forward

‍

Chris (06:53.21)

I mean, I kind of fell into that too. You know, it's really easy to watch. Everyone's been a critic at some point, right? So you watch a video on YouTube and people say something's tough and you look at it, you're like, that doesn't look all that tough. I could do that. You know, and I did the same thing when it came to filming in the tree. My, so for those of you who have been listening and Angelo, you know, I've started filming not...

‍

quite at the beginning of last season, towards the end of the season before that, I started toying with filming. So last year was the first full year I got in and I feel like other than the setup, like getting the arm in the tree where I want it and other than that, I have found that the filming aspect of it hasn't given me too much trouble.

‍

If anything, it helps me stay in the woods a little bit longer. I'm able to film, you know, I'm able to film squirrels, I'm able to film birds. Even if I can't shoot a deer or it's a deer that comes out that I wouldn't shoot, I still find myself shooting it with the camera, you know? So it just adds another aspect of something to do in the woods. And once you get through that initial setup aspect of it, then I think it gets a little bit easier, I guess you could say.

‍

Angelo (08:07.234)

Yeah, I mean, this is we're here for, too, right? We're here to be a learning platform. We want to show people what it's like as an average person, as someone who's looking to start new things in the hunting world, what it's really like, right? We want to show the we want to show the right side of it. So, you know, I told people, look for my videos. They're going to be coming soon. You know, there's going to be a little bit of that in there, right? It's going to be a little bit of that raw realism where we're showing you.

‍

Chris (08:11.642)

Sure.

‍

Angelo (08:35.596)

These are the things that happen and it's not always perfect.

‍

Chris (08:40.6)

Right. Now, if you don't, if you don't want to plug brands or anything, I mean, that's up to you, but just give it, give the listeners an idea of what your setup looks like as far as obviously you have climbing six, what have to get into that. But once you get to the top, what does your platform look like? What does your saddle look like? Where are you putting your tether? What kind of issues are you running into when you get to the top of your sticks and you start to set up? Like, what does that system look like for you?

‍

Angelo (09:05.326)

wouldn't say I'm a budget hunter, but I'm on a budget kit. Like, that's just what it is. I'm going to be honest with you. The saddle is just... I would plug it if I knew it. I don't hate the saddle. It's just I don't even know the name of the company. But that's the type of stuff that I'm working with. Like, I'm not researching stuff. I mean, I don't buy shitty gear, but like, I'm not buying the one that everybody's saying is the best.

‍

I'm buying the one that I think is the best for me and it's going to be one of the budget options only because you know my lifestyle has put me in a position where those are the things that I'm gonna have. I would like to spend money on better gear but I choose to spend my money on better quality items in other aspects of my life. I just recently bought a home. I had to fix up my house. I've had a lot of

‍

Chris (09:36.483)

Okay.

‍

Angelo (10:01.454)

appliances and stuff like that that I've had to replace. I've had a lot of renovations that I've had to do and my living situation has taken priority over my hunting equipment even though I've switched my hunting style and my tactics. So I've got a saddle, I've got sticks, they're not top of the line. I do like the cam system. You've expressed your enjoyment and yeah, you like the cam system.

‍

Chris (10:24.992)

I switched baby, I put those cam cleats on, they're incredible.

‍

Angelo (10:29.342)

My system, my sticks are probably heavy on the heavy side, but they are on the more on the convenience side in how fast they are to set up and how easy they are to use. so I'm okay with the weight. My saddle platform that I stand on is, I mean, as small as small can get. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's light. I would have to maybe compare to other setups, but

‍

I would assume that it's pretty light, it's pretty rugged, it's got a nice texture to it, you don't really lose your footing. The only thing is, I mean, my whole foot doesn't even fit on it. Anywhere. If I'm sitting directly in the middle, front to back, my foot does not fit on it fully.

‍

Chris (11:17.732)

See, and that was my issue with the saddle over the summer. didn't, I did not feel comfortable in something that I couldn't stand on without holding or leaning. It just wasn't, it wasn't crazy about that. Right.

‍

Angelo (11:26.572)

Yeah, I do feel comfortable in it. I don't have a problem with it. It's wide enough. It's got like little wings that come off. So it's wide enough to where like if I need to make a turn, I can turn my foot and I still get a good amount on there. So I've got a good amount on my foot front to back. And if I need to turn, I can still get a good amount of my foot on the wing to be able to make turns without having to feel like I can't turn safely. So

‍

It's literally like the bare minimum. My setup is like the bare minimum. As far as like function is concerned, I wouldn't say it's the bare minimum weight. It leaves more to be desired. I definitely want to upgrade my system. The platform is probably something that I'm going to be looking to upgrade, but for me, it gets the job done, right? I've had success with this system.

‍

So for me, it's like, if I'm having success, there's no point in switching because again, there are going to be people that are mindful of the cost. I'm not necessarily mindful of the cost. I mean, it's not like something that's going to keep me away from it. I don't mind going and spending a little bit of extra on a quality product as long as I know like, okay, this is the priority for me right now. If it's a priority for me, then I have no problem going in.

‍

But right now it's working. So it's like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it kind of for me right now. To tell you the rest of my setup, I'm shooting a Matthews. It's a hand-me-down. It's probably 15 years old. I mean, it's not a brand new bow. We had an episode with George from Fire Knock and he expressed that if you're a new hunter and you want to just get the most efficient item to be able to go out and kill bucks or deer or whatever it is that you're hunting.

‍

Get one of the older bows. They've got the full draw weight at the back. You don't have to worry about let off or anything like that. You're not going to lose any efficiency in your bow and transitioning that power into your arrow. Get yourself a good quality arrow. He recommended that

‍

Chris (13:30.596)

They have the lighter light off, yeah.

‍

Chris (13:40.214)

There's just less to worry about on the tuning end of things. Really.

‍

Chris (13:48.73)

He recommended 300 not 300 spine, 300 like, like 0.204, 0.246, 0.300. He recommended the 0.300 diameter arrows because they won't go into it, but yeah.

‍

Angelo (14:02.038)

And he recommended Gulltip and just so happens that that's the arrow that I already have. That's the arrow that I already shoot. And then he described that you just want to make sure that your broadhead, the FOC is not like too crazy at a whack, right? You just want to have a nice stock setup. you know, that's, he literally described my setup and it's not because I'm doing something right, just cause he's a smart guy and he described my setup. That's just my setup.

‍

You know, that's just what I I've got hand me that. Yeah, I've got a hand me down bow. And that's not the only tool I use. I've I've used crossbow. Last year, I used a crossbow during the bow season. I've used compound bows. I've used muzzleloader shotguns. I've harvested with all different types of tools. And, you know, right now I'm using the compound bow. And, you know, that's another part of my kit that I would like to upgrade. So we're talking about, you know, how's my kit?

‍

Chris (14:31.413)

The stars align man, yeah.

‍

Angelo (14:59.308)

working for me right now. There are some things I think I could do to clean it up. I'm okay with it. would say priority for next season would be bow. Priority next season would be newer bow, a more reliable bow. Not that this is not reliable, it is reliable, but the site is rusted in place. I can't even switch the site if I wanted to. You know, I have to tune my arrows to my bow. I can't even bow tune. I've got a

‍

make sure my arrows are flying according to what my bow is set at because I can't change the settings unless, I got to basically take a sawzall to my site to get it off, I think. It is what it is. mean, hey, listen, and like I said, I'm having success, right? So again, it comes down to putting yourself in the right position to have success and then having the skill.

‍

Chris (15:32.803)

Right.

‍

Chris (15:40.034)

Hahaha

‍

Or know, bottle of glass, bottle of water maybe.

‍

Angelo (15:56.706)

to be able to use the tools that you have on hand to be able to execute the success. Right now I'm able to do that.

‍

Chris (16:03.064)

Right. And what Angelou saying is that you could be the guy that goes out and spends thousands and thousands of dollars and has the best equipment and makes your experience as easy as possible. And you can go out and spend the bare minimum on the bare minimum and find equal success. the money you spend doesn't equate to success. The money, you know what I mean? Yeah.

‍

Angelo (16:22.51)

Yeah, I mean, there's going to be shots in the woods that you can take with a better setup. There's going to be angles that you can shoot. There's going to be distances that you could shoot. There's going to be weight limitations. Some of the older stuff's a little bit heavier, you know, but averages over a long period of time, I would say you're going to have just about the same amount of success based on your commitment to the process.

‍

Chris (16:32.74)

Right.

‍

Chris (16:50.906)

Right, because commitment breeds success. Success just a commitment away. All right, so just a little plug there, know. So we'll backtrack. Do you want to tell a little bit about how your day went today? I know you talked about the water bottle and all that stuff, but was there anything else that you wanted to share before I kind of go into my week and my setup?

‍

Angelo (16:53.132)

That's it. That's what we live by.

‍

Thank

‍

Angelo (17:11.31)

No, I just that was really kind of where I already said what I wanted to say. The more time goes by, I feel like the better it's coming out because I even have on my camera right now, which I'm probably just going to delete. have a whole rant of in the moment emotions, which maybe I'll post it just so people could see like, yeah, it's raw. Like, you know what mean? But it's like, I don't know. But.

‍

Chris (17:30.06)

Raw, man, why not? We could even have like a blooper episode with just reactions, know, post-shot reactions.

‍

Angelo (17:37.814)

Yeah, was just like, you know, my real main point was that it's harder than it looks. It's harder than people make it look. And to the people who are doing it with success, know, regardless of if you're showing the failures or not, it just, give you props because I know how difficult it can be to get success having all these obstacles in your way.

‍

Chris (17:45.934)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Chris (17:53.21)

you

‍

Chris (18:01.486)

Yeah, now Angela makes a good point. know, recording isn't, it's not the easiest thing in the world. It doesn't have to be the hardest thing in the world. You know, the bigger your camera or the more camera equipment you have, the harder it's going to get, you know, but if you're just someone who wants to document what you're doing, you want to throw like a little GoPro on your bow, like it doesn't have to be complicated. You know what I mean? Well, you can make it as, as in depth or as simple as you want to. now

‍

My system is somewhat similar to yours. am running a saddle. I'll go ahead and plug a company in XLP. If you're listening here, I love your stuff. I really do. Anyone who's just getting...

‍

Angelo (18:38.58)

We agree on that. You've put me onto a couple XOP products that I like as well.

‍

Chris (18:43.226)

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and they sell great quality stuff at a budget friendly price. mean, they have, we're not sponsored by them. We're not affiliated with them in any way as of now. So I'm just, I'm just sharing information for a company that I believe in and that we believe in. So everything on XLP's website, in my opinion, is budget friendly. They have a budget friendly, saddle, like a starter kit where you could get into a saddle on a platform for $200 flat.

‍

They have a run and gun setup with stands and sticks, which gets you up a little bit higher. I think it's like in the four or $500 range, but it's literally everything you need to throw on your back and go in the woods and hunt. What I'm using this year is I upgraded to the retrograde platform. I got rid of my air raid platform that I had last year. I upgraded to the retrograde. For those of you who've been listening, I've been having some back problems as of late and I needed to lighten up my setup. So I've gone over to the retrograde platform.

‍

which is considered a hybrid system. It is small enough to use as a saddle platform, but it's big enough to use as a regular hang on, sit and hunt type of deal. Those of you who listen to our very early episodes, Angelo and I got in the woods late summer this year and I tried out the saddle for the first time at height. Before that I had been in the saddle maybe like five feet or whatever.

‍

And when I tried it, I got up and I was able to get up in the tree, lean back okay, and I was able to go to my strong side just fine. But when I had to turn around and put my back to the tree and kind of do that, you know, under the bridge seatbelt thing, I did not feel comfortable turning around when I didn't have a firm footing under me. So because of that, I sold my saddle setup to buy the retro grade.

‍

And as soon as I got the retrograde, I regretted selling the saddle instantaneously. So I went out and bought the exact same saddle again. so I'm using the XOP retrograde platform with the XOP Mondo saddle. What I love about this saddle, I will be honest. they do have some exposed metal. So, you know, you want to wrap it up or tape it to like silence that up a little bit. Not the biggest deal in the world.

‍

Chris (20:55.052)

It does kind of ride up a little bit. is what it is, but for a starter saddle, for someone just getting into it or someone that wants a hybrid saddle that has like the shoulder straps along with the saddle. So that way you could use it for like a regular hang on harness or a saddle. This is a phenomenal saddle in my opinion.

‍

Angelo (21:12.974)

All of those entry level saddles are going to ride up. Just for people looking to get into saddle hunting, it's going to ride up. Just depending on your position. mean, obviously the more comfortable you get in the tree, you'll be able to kind of sit down into the saddle, bend your knees a little bit, let the safety line out and then you can kind of sit. Then you're probably going to run the risk of your knees hitting the tree. So you're probably going to want some knee pads or something. Just a quick.

‍

Chris (21:16.239)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Chris (21:30.81)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Angelo (21:39.406)

I went to Harbor Freight. They sell like a pair of three dollar knee pads They're literally just styrofoam and a strap that goes around your knee. I just stick them in my pack They're bendable. They're pliable. They kind of just go right back into form and I just use those and those are fine

‍

Chris (21:54.208)

Okay, yeah, I actually had a pair of knee pads. brought them in the woods on my very first saddle sit. I think it was Thursday after work, but the ones I got, they're really comfortable. They're like really, they're like gel filled, but they were so bulky and the Velcro just, as I, you know, it was just, wasn't good.

‍

Angelo (22:10.326)

Nah, yeah, I'm telling you. You know, like I said, I'm not trying to go low budget. I have no problem spending more money, but I've already did that. I've had that problem. I've had the bulky ones. I've had the ones with the plastic. Your things are banging on them. They make noise. The plastic ones, they slide off the bark. They don't really grab these little, I'm telling you, three bucks at Harbor Freight. They're just styrofoam with a strap. They're just simple as simple can be.

‍

Chris (22:36.686)

Yeah.

‍

Angelo (22:38.218)

and I just tuck them in my bag, it's like they don't even exist and it's nice and easy.

‍

Chris (22:42.83)

I've got one even better for you. So.

‍

This stand, now that I have gotten the saddle and I'm using it more like a saddle hybrid, this stand is literally everything I could ever want. I'm able to stand on it and face the tree. I'm able to stand on it look away from the tree. To be honest with you, I had my sit on Saturday and half the day I spent just sitting there hanging out, like standing as if it was a hang on. And when my legs got tired, I went into leaning, you know, like a saddle. But the cool thing is the seat connects in the front and

‍

and then has like elastic that hooks onto these hooks. So when you fold the seat up and you're in saddle mode, you can flip the seat around, like the cushion for the seat around and use it as a knee pad against the tree. So I didn't have to worry about having the knee pads. I had a knee pad built into the tree. Now, the other thing that really helps out having like a regular hang, yeah.

‍

Angelo (23:42.598)

Sorry to interrupt you, the seat that you have, it comes with a cushion that you can sit on? Can you flip it upside down and put it, like if you flip the seat up, can you put the cushion on the bottom side and just put your knees up against it that way? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

‍

Chris (23:46.158)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

‍

Chris (23:54.798)

Yeah, that's exactly what I was just saying. Yeah, I could flip it around and I use the pad as a knee pad, you know? So it's like best of both worlds. But not only that, it actually saves me with the issues you're having. You were saying that normally when you hang your bag, you hang like the tag end of your gear strap on the back of your tree. What I do is I hang, so I'm a lefty. When I'm in saddle mode, I hang the bow on the right side of the tree.

‍

And I have the tag end coming down the left side of the tree and I hang it so that way my bag is down by my shins. You know, it's not in the way of anything when I'm, never have to lean off that side of the tree. If I'm going to take that shot, I'm going to turn around in my stand and just shoot like a, like a hang on, you know what I mean? But what I do is.

‍

Angelo (24:41.102)

The bag doesn't get in your way of your feet moving That's that might be my problem is because my platform is so small and I'm so close to the tree That the bag anywhere in front of me is in my way

‍

Chris (24:44.63)

No? No? Yep. Yep.

‍

Chris (24:53.686)

It's so it's not quite in front of me. Like let's say I'm on the tree, like you're the tree and I'm facing the tree. I have it off like at eight o'clock, nine o'clock on the tree and just have it hang down below me, you know, and my stand is so big.

‍

Angelo (25:06.382)

Yeah, but my backpack's like 18, 20, 22 inches wide. So even if it's just catty quarter off, there's usually like a part of it that's like hitting the side of my leg.

‍

Chris (25:09.614)

Yeah.

‍

Chris (25:16.31)

Okay. I gotcha. So I actually just changed bags. We'll talk about that in a second. I changed them last night for the better in my opinion.

‍

Angelo (25:23.362)

Well, one of the things that I've been doing and you've touched on this, I don't know if you touched on this podcast, but you said that when you climb trees, you like to have like a cluster of trees or like a tree that Vs or like a tree that has the first version of this podcast that we had to re-record. Guys, like we said, it's hard. It's not easy. There's technical issues in all aspects of this. But what I've been doing, and this isn't something that I always do. It's something that I've been doing lately because I've been having these cameras issues.

‍

Chris (25:33.624)

Yeah, that was on the first version of this where the whole thing got, yeah, exactly. Yep.

‍

Chris (25:46.062)

yet.

‍

Angelo (25:52.27)

But I've been trying to find two trees that are next to each other. And I don't care if the other tree next to me is like two inches around. Just anything to where I can maybe put my bag on a completely different tree.

‍

Chris (26:03.578)

So I wish I had thought of this earlier. I actually need to bring two bow hooks in the woods with me from now on. And I'm actually gonna make a note of that and explain to you why when I get to my story. But anyway, so.

‍

Not the other great thing about having the seat when I climb up, right? So my stand has to be on my, is on my back. When I climb up my tree, my stand is on my back. I hang my first day. We've talked about this in the past. So I'm just going to burn through it. I hang my first stick. It's got my triple eight or on it. So I got three and a half feet of eight or plus the foot and a half of my stick. So I put that one up. I hang the rope for my second stick on my first stick. I climb up my first stick, grab the rope.

‍

hang that second stick and then I have my third and my fourth sticks on my hip. Which I found in the last three or four sits, with only three sticks I'm getting my feet at 15 feet, my head is at 20, 21 feet. I don't even know if I need my fourth stick anymore, but that's neither here nor there. Now, when I get to the top, I hang my stand, I put my tether, I attach myself, I get up in my stand. Now,

‍

since I'm using a regular tree stand, like a hang on style stand, I have a seat. When I climb up, I pull my bag up, I sit my bag on my seat and I hook it to my gear strap. So if it falls off my seat, it gets caught. Last year I had my bag fall completely out of the tree with my camera in it. So I learned my lesson, that'll never happen again. And then I pull my bow up and I hang it on the side or whatever. Now I get to setting up.

‍

I used to pull my bow up last and you and I talked about that and you're like, you're fucking crazy. You need to pull that bow up first, have that in the tree ready to go and then deal with your bullshit later. So I started doing that. Thank you for that. Yeah. You know, thank you. Thank you for that tip. so the beautiful thing about having the tree stand with the seat.

‍

Angelo (27:50.262)

I wish I would have done that today.

‍

Chris (27:59.936)

is I'm able to sit my bag on the seat. don't have to worry about it hanging, swinging around the tree, having to reach for shit. It's right there in front of me. And since it's on the seat, the top of the bag is like just underneath my chest. So it's at like the perfect height to do what I have to do with. Now you were saying earlier, I don't know if it was on this podcast or the first version, but you were saying that with everything hanging and you have to lean around the tree to like, you know, strap your strap your camera arm in.

‍

that your tether was getting too close and pinching everything. I don't have that issue because I'm just standing. And I like when I'm first starting, I loosen up my tether. So that way, you know, I have the, the, I have the slack in my rope to do what I have to do. You can't do that because you can't stand on your platform. You have to be leaning into your. Can you?

‍

Angelo (28:50.35)

I mean, I can stand on my platform, but I can't with the bag in between me and the tree.

‍

Chris (28:55.34)

Right, right. So that, that, that in my opinion makes the hybrid style stands, doesn't even have to be an XLP. There's other people out there that make them. I just happen to be partial to the XLP one because it's the one I've used, but that works out phenomenal. So my issue is I, since I spent so much money on this camera, I'm not using like a camcorder. I'm using a point and shoot camera.

‍

And my, Hey Hunter, how you doing buddy? My issue is that I don't trust anything other than a ratchet strap to hold my camera on the tree. So I'm not using a cam buckle. I'm not using a pull through. I'm not using a cinch rope. I'm using a legit, ratchet strap. So that alone, I have to do that very slow and methodical, you know, when I'm, when I'm tightening it, I have to hold the metal so it doesn't click. And then when I'm coming back to start it over, I have to hold the other side.

‍

Angelo (29:51.789)

I just click it.

‍

Chris (29:51.886)

I've kind of, I mean, I've gotten the system down for the most part that works out for me, but it is a pain in the ass when I don't get it leveled like I need to. Right. Well, it depends.

‍

Angelo (29:59.596)

I I don't go crazy, but I click it. I just click it. The faster you do it, the faster you get over with it. just, you know, I understand that a click is a foreign sound, but...

‍

Chris (30:06.179)

Yeah.

‍

Chris (30:09.634)

Yeah, you know, and there's different schools of thought. Like you're saying the faster you do it, get it over with, let the woods die down. That's why we get in the woods so early, right? I mean,

‍

Angelo (30:16.814)

Well, my thing is I'd rather I feel like my movement is probably worse than the click. You know what mean? The longer I'm there moving around and everything else, I'd just rather just be standing still.

‍

Chris (30:23.108)

That's fair.

‍

Chris (30:27.042)

Yep. That's fair. So you and I have talked about this before. You thought I was crazy. I have four pouches on my, on my waist when I climb. I have two of the tethered dump pouches, like the big, like the nice big ones. And then I have two smaller like ammo pouches. that zipper, that zipper open and close.

‍

Angelo (30:46.712)

Well, don't think the pouches are crazy. think it was, I would have probably used, yeah, I probably would have carried different things in those pouches.

‍

Chris (30:50.05)

what I was carrying in them. Right. So what I carry up for those of you didn't hear in the past, my left side is all my climbing and setup stuff. So in my left bag, I have my lineman's belt, my bridge and my tether. And my tether when I'm climbing also works as like a second safety line. Like if I'm climbing and I have to get around branches, I'll hook in my second safety line, detach the first one.

‍

get around that branch and keep going. Then in the black pouch that I have behind that, that's where I have my gear strap and my bow hook. And then in the two little side pouches, because the tethered pouches have the big compartment and then two smaller compartments on the side, what I use those for are the one strap in each of those pockets. Those are the straps that hold my platform on. In my right bag,

‍

Or on my right side, I have everything for the pre set up for my filming gear. I have my, I have my microphone. I have my put my, so I have the microphone for my big camera. That's the one that goes on my hot shoe. I have my, my other microphones that plug into my GoPro for like my interview style stuff. That's in my pocket. Then I have my GoPro, like the screw in GoPro thing. I have a small hook that I use to hold my, to hold my quiver on.

‍

And some wires and a couple. So everything on my right side is all filming stuff, but that's the stuff that took me the longest before I had it in the pouches. When I was, you know, my first couple sits, I had everything in like a GoPro style, like little, you know, case, and then I would have to unzip it and sit it and like, hope it wouldn't fall out. And I was doing everything so slow because I didn't, I've had things fall out of the tree before. Now that I have it on my waist, I don't have to worry about

‍

Now the big difference I made was instead of having all of that stuff fixed to my actual saddle, I put it on its own belt. So I climb with all these pouches on, use what I need to, and once I'm set up in my tree, I take that belt off and put it in my backpack. Now I don't have any pouches around my waist to interfere with me turning. Which leads me to, you thought about getting yourself just a small little ammo zipper, Molly style?

‍

Chris (33:12.614)

like pouch to just keep on the back, like on your backside and keep your camera in that. You don't have to worry about it getting crushed against a tree or anything. You can leave it in there and just use that to go up, set everything else up and then you can move a little bit quicker because you're not worried about damaging the camera.

‍

Angelo (33:30.06)

I don't know what I'm gonna do because I have a camcorder style camera and I usually carry it around with the fixed mic on top of it and I've got the shotgun mic so yeah so it's pretty big it's it's not that small of a setup so I don't know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna have to do something different I'll figure it out I definitely want to add some pouches it's not gonna be to my saddle I definitely could probably carry a couple things on my saddle

‍

Chris (33:33.369)

Yeah.

‍

Chris (33:38.156)

Your mic is huge. Yeah.

‍

Yeah. So what I would.

‍

Angelo (33:56.92)

The thing is, I don't know if you do, I walk to my tree with the saddle on. My sh- My- My- My-

‍

Chris (34:01.858)

I do too. Well, it depends. It depends. If I have my outer layer on, like if I walk in with my outer layer on, I keep my saddle on. If I'm walking deeper and I have my outer layer in my pack, then I won't have my saddle on because I got to take it off to get dressed anyway.

‍

Angelo (34:14.776)

Well I always have my saddle on regardless of what I'm doing because I don't have the space inside my backpack. I have extra space in my backpack because I'm wearing my saddle.

‍

Chris (34:20.291)

Okay.

‍

Chris (34:24.716)

I got you. You could do what I'm doing and just have an extra belt with the pouches on it. So you have it there when you need it. And then when you're done with it, take it off and pack it away until you're ready to climb down.

‍

Angelo (34:35.231)

No, I know. just, again, my setup is weird. I have two sticks on either side of my backpack. I've got my platform strapped to the backside of my backpack. So it's like there's really nowhere to go except for maybe like the bottom of my backpack. There's straps there that maybe I can add like another little pack and just have like another pack on the bottom, which I would probably do the camera on. The only thing is if I take my backpack off, take my backpack on, if I have to set it down for a second.

‍

Chris (34:38.298)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Chris (34:44.728)

Mm-hmm. Nothing on the outside.

‍

Thank

‍

Mm-hmm.

‍

Angelo (35:03.96)

let's say I'm walking and I have a deer sighting or something and I want to take the backpack off, I have to be mindful because I can't just take it off and drop it because now my camera's on the back. So I don't know if maybe I have to add that to the top. You know what mean? My pockets are almost inaccessible with the saddle on.

‍

Chris (35:12.056)

your camera's down there.

‍

How big are your pockets?

‍

Chris (35:22.33)

Okay. Cause my, my, so your camcorder is literally like eight times as expensive as the one I was using last year. But the one I had last year was small enough that it literally fit in my pockets and I would climb. would just, I would just, I would just walk. But then again, it only cost me a hundred bucks. So mean, like, what, mean, I didn't, you know, like that.

‍

Angelo (35:33.846)

No, this one's way too big.

‍

Angelo (35:38.326)

No, yeah, that's the same one I shot. That was the one I used for target practice the first time I went hunting.

‍

Chris (35:42.742)

Yeah, you know, so, you know, you know what we need to do? You and I have climbed together. Like we just brought our, we literally just carried our saddle and you know, our, our platform in one hand and our sticks in the other. We got to get together one of these days and like, like just show each other our actual setup, like your bag, how you organize your bag, how I organize mine, like what I wear. Maybe I'll get some ideas from you and you'll get some ideas from me, you know? but this, this past weekend,

‍

Was an interesting sit for me. I had a I had some debacles kind of like you did I? Want it like like you said when I climb I like to climb especially with the saddle after talking to some people and I and I I confirmed it this weekend People are telling me that if you climb like a tree like a split trunk tree or two trees that are growing close enough that you can set up on one and lean into the other tree that it becomes a lot more comfortable you're not always leaning against the rope

‍

And honestly, I found that to be true this weekend. was able to lean against the tree when I wanted to. I was able to turn around. sat down actually this weekend because I use the stand that I do. I turned around and had like the, the, the, like the, tether across my chest, like a safety belt. But then what I did was when I sat down, I took one side of it and pulled it over my head and kind of put my head through the V and the, in the tether.

‍

And I basically had a five point harness. Like if I wanted to take a nap, I felt 110 % comfortable taking a nap with that thing holding me snug against the tree without a doubt. It was actually pretty cool. but I had two big trees growing next to each other and a branch coming off of the tree that was next to the one I was climbing. wasn't really paying attention to. So I get my first stick set up. You know, I climb up the, I climb up the eighter now I'm on my first stick.

‍

And I go, I get my second stick on. So when I set my second stick, I'm on the lower step of my first step. When I go to step into the second step, I got pinched between this fucking branch coming off the side tree and the tree I was climbing literally stuck. couldn't shimmy down. I couldn't get my feet free. The only thing I could do was bear hug the tree, rotate my whole body around the tree. And now I'm like seven feet in the, in the tree. So I have to.

‍

Chris (37:59.854)

like literally like bear hug and shimmy my way down the tree. scraped my, yeah, literally like fucking fireman's pole down a damn tree. And it was like, you know, I scraped myself up. wasn't injured or anything. So, but I, right away from the beginning, I felt like the hunt was fucked because I'm going through all this bullshit. Now I'm leaving my scent. Now I'm sweating cause I'm exerting all this energy. Got around the other side of the tree and climb that side.

‍

Angelo (38:04.653)

drill.

‍

Chris (38:28.582)

What was really cool about this week is because it is that it's the first Time this year or the first instant that I started to see deer reacting to the calls Granted they weren't anything old and typically speaking the younger deer are going to react to the calls a little bit sooner They don't really know the deal yet but

‍

I like to use, I've listened to some calling podcasts in the past and I like to use these light tending grunts around these thickets along with some light rattling. And I do it throughout the day. don't, grunt low enough that only something within like 60 yards could hear me and anything outside of that, it's not effective. So honestly, I'm, I'm grunting like every five to 10 minutes, you know, like from left to right, right to left, left to right. And then I put it away.

‍

So I'll grunt like 30 grunts at a time and put it down. and it was really cool because I heard, like, I heard a deer off in the distance. I grunted. I heard a deer off in the distance and you could hear them like kind of walking through the leaves and it walked, it walked, it walked. And all of a sudden I saw a dart across the, across the cover. was sitting on a food plot and it crossed the cover that was on the other side. There's like a thick screen on the food plot and I saw it come like take off. And then I saw it coming through the opening.

‍

At this time, I didn't know if it was a buck or a doe. You and I have talked, I think we talked about this last week. And I know I said I wasn't planning on shooting a doe on our property this year, but I haven't shot a deer. I haven't got a kill in two years. And at this point, my confidence is starting to take a hit. So I decided if I see a doe, I'm probably gonna take the shot.

‍

So at this time I didn't know if it was a doe or not. So I grabbed my bow. Mind you, it was on the left side of my tree. So I grabbed my bow, flipped underneath my, underneath my tether. Now I'm holding my bow. I'm controlling the camera. I have the tether across my body and the deer like just comes right out. It ran across, got to a, like an opening and walked in. got decent film of this. I think I sent you a video and it was a spike. So now I'm sitting.

‍

Chris (40:40.152)

Completely turned around from my bow hook. I can't get my bow back in the tree. I'm working the camera. I wasn't thinking when I climbed my tree. I only climbed three sticks instead of four. So when this deer came in, I was only maybe three feet above his eye level. So when I was controlling the camera, he kind of caught me at first and just kept kind of checking up with me. So I couldn't move. I was literally hugging my bow, holding it like, you know, with the grip, holding the grip.

‍

and then holding the riser with my other hand and kind of just reaching around underneath the camera and kind of just controlling the camera. And then I didn't realize, but a second spike was in the lower end of the field on the other side of my tree. So it was really cool to see the two deer kind of react to those calls and to get that confirmation that I'm doing something right. The way I'm calling, I'm doing something right. The deer are starting to...

‍

pay attention to some of the mock scrapes that I've made. So that's a bonus too. So it seems like that pre-rut, I guess you can call it the pre pre-rut, like that very first instant of rutting activity is starting to pick up, which is really, really cool. But I wish I had a second bow hook because the way I was sitting, I had the tree I was climbing, off my right side was the tree I was leaning on. And then to my left was another tree that was maybe like three inches in diameter.

‍

So if I had another bow hook there, once I realized it was a deer I didn't wanna shoot, I could have hung my bow, not had to worry about holding that and gotten into a much more comfortable position to kinda just work the camera. But that's also a perfect example of I couldn't make the shot, but I still had something to do for the next 45 minutes as I was recording these deer feeding through the field there.

‍

Angelo (42:29.516)

Yes, so my set up's a little bit more of like a run and gun style, I guess you could say. I very rarely hunt the same tree, so I'm very mindful of the fact that I don't wanna, you know, just today my dad told me that he left his bow hook in the tree. You said you've done it a couple times, I've done it a couple times.

‍

Chris (42:46.564)

Yep. Yep.

‍

Angelo (42:48.322)

You know, that's the problem with putting in so many different things. It's like, you know, then you forget one. It's like, I got to go back to that tree. And it's like, if I go back to that tree, I might as well hunt that tree. then revisiting spots, which I don't like to do, even though I've done it in this season so far. But we'll get to that in a little bit.

‍

Chris (43:01.988)

But I think from...

‍

Chris (43:11.524)

Yeah. Real quick. I think that goes to, and I think that it goes to what you and I are both talking about trying to situate for ourselves is having a system, right? If every time you get up the tree, you set up everything in the exact same order. And when you break down, you break down in the exact same order. think that's when you really stop forgetting things. Like if you know that there's a checklist in your brain that you need to go through and you just do everything in the same order.

‍

My problem is for the last three or four years, I've been changing everything up. I've gone from preset stands. So, well, it went from a climber to a preset stand to another climber to a hang on, like a heavy hang on stand to then recording now saddle every year for the last four or five years. I've changed the way I hunt.

‍

Angelo (43:57.91)

Yeah, for me, the only thing I've changed is the camera. So that's why I'm having a problem with the camera. But to speak on what you were saying is like to do something like what you were saying is putting the different hooks in different spots in a permanent tree where I know I'm going to revisit it, maybe like a staple, you know, monarch tree on my property. If I'm hunting private property, that's probably something I would do, which you're doing right. You're on private property in New York. So that's something you can think about. But again, for me, it's like

‍

Chris (44:03.011)

Right. You know.

‍

Angelo (44:27.188)

I want to, like you said, I want to have a setup that I can have in the same setup every tree I climb because I'm always going to be in a different situation. So, you know, there might be some days where I have a little bit more luxury of having a tree to lean on or this or that, but for the most part, I'm trying to find a way that I can make my setup something that it's repeatable. And the only thing that's limiting me right now is the fact that

‍

The camera is the one thing I'm not putting in the order that I need it. the order, you know what mean? I'm putting it in last and I'm taking it out first, even though I don't need it first, and even though it's not the last thing I need to pack. So that's the one thing I'll have to figure out.

‍

Chris (44:57.838)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

‍

Chris (45:07.866)

So what, when you transport your camera and then we've kind of beat this enough tonight. So I think after, after this, we'll trans you know, we'll transition into the woods are changing because it's kind of what we're here to do today. But when you transport your camera, do you have it in a case or do you just have it? Okay. Yeah. So here's what I, here's what I did. And

‍

Angelo (45:24.17)

No, it's just in my bag. It's just in my bag, but I have like other clothes and stuff around it. So it's like padded. It's not enemy.

‍

Chris (45:33.268)

I had the same issue as you. mean, my camera is like a, anyone who hasn't listened or doesn't remember, have a Lumix GH5. It's a legitimate, you know, interchangeable lens camera. So my setup, even though I bought it used, it cost me around a grand and I'm not trying to drop it. I'm not trying to break it or have anything happen to it. So what I did was I bought a case that is soft on the inside and pretty much hard on the outside. it, holds its shape and it protects the camera from pressure.

‍

And then I took, I actually took the strap from my binoculars and attached it to my camera. So when I pack my camera in my bag, I keep the camera strap out of the case and then zipper it up to it. So like the zipper's pinching the strap. And then before I take the camera out of the case, I put the strap around my neck. And then I handle the case. If it slips, the case falls, whatever, the camera's not going anywhere.

‍

then I keep it around my neck as I attach it to my camera arm. And then once I have it attached to my camera arm, now I know it's safe. It's one extra step that takes me an extra four seconds to put the strap over my neck. But once I have it on my neck, I don't have to worry about it. I don't have to worry about it falling. I feel confident and I'm good to go. So maybe something like that, even if it's something as simple as, your camcorder, I'm assuming has like a hand strap on it.

‍

Angelo (46:58.2)

Yeah.

‍

Chris (46:58.914)

Okay, even if you do something as simple as taking a piece of paracord, tying it to that camera strap, and getting just a clip hook and hooking it to your gear strap so you don't have to worry about that camera falling. You know what I mean?

‍

Angelo (47:08.578)

Yeah, No, yeah, like I said, I'm just going to have to figure out what I can do. There's probably going to be a billion different things I can do. I haven't looked at it yet.

‍

Chris (47:15.31)

Yeah. A lot of ways to go and guys, we're going to keep updating you. Like that's the number one thing that we're focusing on. Like we're worried about our gear and we're scouting and doing the whole nine. But the big thing that we're trying to focus on this year is getting our filming skills down. so you're definitely going to hear the updates on that as we go, we're going to let you in on the things that work, the things that don't we're enjoying it. I mean, at least I am. It sounds like you're for the most part enjoying it other than the setup.

‍

It sounds like you're enjoying it, you know, so.

‍

Angelo (47:45.144)

mean, it's difficult. It adds difficulty to it. I'm not saying that deer hunting is easy without it, but, you know, it's... Yeah.

‍

Chris (47:52.418)

Yeah, I got you. It's a learning curve. There's a learning curve. All right, so let's transition. The woods are changing. Depending on where you are. Jersey, last time I was there, there was still a decent amount of leaf cover. I don't know what it looks like in the last two weeks. Here in PA, the woods are really starting to thin out and in New York where our property is, it's even thinner than that.

‍

There are still some trees that leaves on them, but there's not a whole lot. So this is the time of year where visually the years are, the woods are changing, but everything is changing. There's less cover on the trees. There's less natural browse for the deer to eat. There's more human pressure in the woods now that hunting season has started. And to top it all off, the hormones of these deer are starting to ramp up. So.

‍

This is that time of year where we start to hit that October lull or the dreaded October lull, know, that time of year where nobody wants to hunt. I have my strategy the way I like to hunt October. I don't know, honestly, if we've ever had this conversation, to be honest with you. So for the listeners, it's gonna be a virgin conversation. We didn't get to this part in the last episode. So I'm gonna let you go first. I've done a lot of talking for the last few minutes. So talk a...

‍

Angelo (49:07.566)

Why don't you go first, because then we'll lead into the next part of it as well.

‍

Chris (49:11.116)

Okay, all right, I'll keep going then. So, especially if you're hunting big woods, deep woods, the pressure aspect of things doesn't really affect you as much. The deeper you get into the woods and the mountains, the less human pressure you're gonna find and the more consistent, I guess you can say, things stay. The big thing is...

‍

Deer need cover, they need cover, need food, they need water. Those are the three things that they need to be comfortable and to survive. So I don't care.

‍

Angelo (49:43.766)

And they don't need water like we do, just to clarify. They do get a lot of their water from the vegetation they eat. The thing is, as the seasons go on and there's less water to be gained from their diet, that changes their need for water. they actually drink a little bit more water a little bit later on. In the springtime, they do like to have some water. Obviously, they're going to drink some, but just for the new person out there, they don't drink water like we drink water.

‍

Chris (49:46.745)

Right.

‍

Chris (50:13.412)

Sure, absolutely. So my thing, especially because of the places that we've hunted, we've grown up hunting, and that we've hunted more frequently in the last few years, the places we hunt are very, very hunter pressured. So if you're someone who's hunting high pressure areas, this is the way I like to tackle it. You gotta put your boots on the ground. You gotta see where the deer are going.

‍

You have to set your expectations. You can't sit somewhere where there's no deer sign and expect to see deer. So number one, gotta set your expectations to reasonable levels and you have to put yourself where deer are. Now my big thing is you gotta put your feet on the ground, you gotta do some scouting and you have to see where that human pressure is.

‍

Angelo, you did it today. You drove around that area where we like to hunt in Jersey and kind of made a mental map of where these people are parking. We're not hunting there. If people are hunting, if people are parked in these places, chances are we're either not going to go there or we're going to use it in the way I'm about to explain.

‍

The more pressure a deer has, the more cover it needs. I'm a firm believer that deer don't leave. They just find a way to maneuver around you. I mean, think about it. That would be like saying somebody broke into your house, so you're moving and you're never coming back. Maybe some people react that way and I'm, and I'm what? No, no, you're not. No, no, no, and you, yeah, yeah.

‍

Angelo (51:40.59)

probably am moving. I probably am moving. They're not getting in, first of all, but if they did get in, I'm probably like, you know what? This neighborhood is crazy. I'm getting out of here.

‍

Chris (51:53.994)

Yeah. And I was looking at my wife and put my foot down and be like, no, they ain't running us out. No, you know, so it's like, you know what? That's a great example, though, because deer are going to be a little bit different. Some deer, they're going to go, you know, they're going to leave and they'll come back later. My my personal belief is that the majority of deer live where they live and they find a way to work their way around and survive. You know, there's a reason why four or five, six year old deer are that old.

‍

and are seen in the same place every year during hunting season. If the case was that they felt pressure and they left, you'd see them once and never see them again. You know, that's my philosophy. So here's what I would do if I were you. The best time to scout for this is in early, early, early spring, late winter, early spring, before the leaves start growing and preferably in snow. But you gotta find these patches of cover where the deer like to go, where they feel safe.

‍

If you could find these patches of cover where deer like to be, and you can identify where these people are and mark both on a map, if you can figure out where the cover is where people aren't, that is where you're going to find success. And the later you go into the season,

‍

the more true this becomes. They're feeling more pressure, there's less cover, there's less food, and the more important each of these characteristics becomes. Now, early, early...

‍

Angelo (53:24.396)

And you got to use this strategy to your advantage and not hunt this in the beginning, right? You need to pattern them based on what they're doing this year, and then let that be your fallback plan once treasure builds up. If you just start hunting this day one, they might have to find a new way to get around you because you're starting to put pressure in that area. Keep that knowledge in your back pocket as your ace in the hole. Hunt normal, hunt the fresh sign early.

‍

Chris (53:37.306)

Right.

‍

Chris (53:46.82)

Right.

‍

Angelo (53:53.878)

And then when the sign cools off mid-October when things kind of dull down, the deer aren't rubbing their antlers to get velvet off and all that other stuff. they're kind of, you know, that I, for me, not to cut you off and go on a tangent, but that's my October lull. A lot of people would say mid to late October is the October lull when kind of deer feel that pressure. Maybe they go nocturnal. That's the whole saying. My October lull is when they stop displaying signs.

‍

Maybe they switch from rubbing to scraping, or maybe they're only rubbing in their core bedding areas where they're really just in that thicker stuff. And unless you get in there to get them, you're not going to see that stuff. But there's a cool down period where you kind of, and I was expressing that to you a little bit today when we talked about what I saw when I was scouting today, other than people is the sign had cooled off, right? We're, I'm, expecting it to pick back up in a big way soon. Once those hormones get back going.

‍

But that's all I was trying to say is just don't use this tactic to your advantage, but don't overuse it and use it in the right way at the right time.

‍

Chris (55:00.59)

Yeah, absolutely. know, and I really, the history or the experience that I have in dog training has really helped me as a deer hunter. And it's really using, what I mean by that is the way we trained Hunter, my bird dog, is we trained him based on

‍

dog behavior. And I don't mean, you know, your house dog from down the street. I mean, like wolves and coyotes. How do they behave? How do they hunt? How do they interact in a pack? And we are the alpha and we train our dogs based on that. I take that knowledge and that, that train of thought, that school of thought, and I, and I try to implement it in my deer hunting. And what I mean by that is hunt a deer the way the deer is.

‍

So in early season, hunt the food. And I know that's backwards. I know that's backwards. I know they say hunt the food late season. What I mean by that is early season, if you want to shoot a doe, we just talked to Kevin Creeley of Mid Atlantic Outdoorsman. We had him on here last week and or two weeks ago, maybe I forget last week or two weeks ago, one or the other. But he, we really dove into hunting feed trees and he likes to use them for doe.

‍

Angelo (56:15.192)

See you soon.

‍

Chris (56:23.372)

and doesn't really use them for bucks, which is great. I think bucks need to eat also. So if I'm going to go sit a feed tree, I'm probably going to be targeting doe, but trying to collect the data. Is there a buck off in the distance? Did a buck come in to eat? Is there a buck around a different feed tree? Whatever the case may be. Early season, hunt the feed trees or the thickets or the travel corridors between the thickets and the food.

‍

Mid-season, right about now, I'm about to transition to the, how do I put it? The ridges, the lower end of the thermal ridges below acorn flats. This is the time of year where acorns are still dropping, the doe are still out there eating. But this is the time of year where the bucks are about to change their patterns from food, bed, water.

‍

to dough. They're looking for the dough. They're starting to chase scent checking for dough. So if the thermals are pulling down into a water like a a marshy bottom or a river bottom or whatever the case may be and those dough are feeding up top, I'm going to be somewhere either on the top quarter or the bottom quarter.

‍

of that hill, depending on the wind direction and what's happening. And I'm going to be scouting and hunting that area. That's what I'm looking to do now. I think you and I were talking about this earlier today. I think the older a buck gets, the more methodical they get. They know that they need to conserve their energy for the rut. They're not going to go out wasting their energy running around going crazy. So I think the older the deer is,

‍

the better they are at knowing what areas have dough coming into heat at what time. And they're going to be a week ahead of that curve. My personal opinion. I think that these older bucks, these more mature bucks that have been through two, three, four ruts know the areas where these dough come into heat. And those are the bucks or the areas that I'm going to start targeting now. I'm going to play the wind. I'm going to play the thermals. I'm going to play the thermal draws.

‍

Chris (58:40.342)

the saddles, the terrain features, and I'm going to start hunting where I think bucks are going to be scent checking and cruising for doe. I'm not a fan of hunting bedding. You and I have talked about that before. I think bedding is just, what I saw last year when hunting completely changed my idea of bedding along with the MSU lab bedding study that they did.

‍

But last year I saw two different bucks bedding, I don't know, 60 yards, 70 yards in front of me in the wide open, no thicket, no cover. They had a little bit of cover off to one side, but they were looking uphill. The wind was to their back. was just, it wasn't the typical bedding scenario that you would think of. So my hunt last year kind of changed a lot of the way I think of bedding to the point where I would rather hunt things that are more.

‍

predictable, like the food and the travel corridors and kind of setting myself in there. So that is, if you guys are somebody trying to get out, you find yourselves struggling with the, October low. think next week, next week, Angela, I think we really should sit down and do like an e-scouting episode, something to show listeners what we're talking about here. I wish we would have thought about it ahead of time. We would have done it today.

‍

But I think that would be so beneficial to people hunting at this time of year. And that's what I'm doing to tackle. So what do you got? How do you tackle octopuses?

‍

Angelo (01:00:07.31)

I mean, to work backwards from what you're saying to touch on the most recent point, the e-scouting, I do use the e-scouting. But at the same time, I use the e-scouting more for what you're saying for like rut funnels, right? So I'm looking for top third, bottom third, I'm looking for pinch points, I'm looking for different fingers coming off and looking for thermal hubs. I'm looking for all that stuff. And if you watch any...

‍

Chris (01:00:22.138)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Angelo (01:00:36.568)

thermal video, any e-scouting video, any how to find bucks in the rut video, you're going to hear all those keywords. But early season that's not my tactic at all. Most of the time I like those funnels and those travel corridors when I can see for a long ways and maybe I can cover a couple of them, be sitting on the best one

‍

but with a shot at like 60, 70 yards to one or two more travel corridors with a gun. With the bow, I know I want my shot to be close. Will I take a farther shot? Yeah, but I don't want to. We know that most of our shots, the high percentage shots are gonna be from 30, 35 yards at the most and then no one's really gonna wanna shoot past 30, 35 yards.

‍

And it's merely just more for arrow efficiency, more than accuracy. I think a lot of people are capable of being accurate longer distances. But with the different variations of low light conditions, different elevations in the mountains, maybe the position of the deer, whether it's quartering to or quartering away, the shots can just be so much more unpredictable a little bit further than 30 yards. So I want to be close. And you know my tactic is way more aggressive.

‍

And I agree with you 100 % that they don't bed in the most predictable areas and they don't bed in the same areas all the time. But I'm a strictly afternoon hunter, especially early in the season. I do not really like morning hunts.

‍

Chris (01:02:07.04)

Real quick, what do you consider early season, mid season, late season? Like what are your, for our area?

‍

Angelo (01:02:10.508)

I mean, once the early season is everything up until pre-rut, so I would say late October. I'm trying to basically until daylight savings. Let's put it that way. Once we get to daylight savings and I kind of, know, again, most of our hunters are going to be weekend hunters. They're going to be spending most of the day in the woods. So this might not necessarily pertain to that. If you like the style that I'm talking about.

‍

Chris (01:02:19.65)

Okay, so everything up until late October.

‍

Chris (01:02:26.466)

Okay, that's good.

‍

Angelo (01:02:40.332)

you're going to have all day on Saturday, so you could do whatever you want. You could do like a low pressure sit in the morning, and then you can do a little bit of scouting midday, and then you could set up for a nice night afternoon sit. But there are the ability for people to get out of work during the weekdays and go into their closest spot maybe near where they work, and they can get a couple hours worth of hunting in before they have to go home.

‍

Chris (01:03:08.57)

That's me this year after work and it's only until Daylight Savings. I think once Daylight Savings hits, it's going to be too soon.

‍

Angelo (01:03:09.901)

Yeah.

‍

Yeah, and there's people that get out all the, yeah, so you're a teacher, you get out a little bit early in the day, you can get out, there's other people, even if you get out at five o'clock, you know, early season, especially like the first week or two, last shots like 730. I mean, you've got two and a half hours to find yourself in a tree and get there. And, you know, if you've got a deer pattern, there's plenty of time. So for me, I'm looking for that. I want to find the fresh sign.

‍

Chris (01:03:25.944)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Angelo (01:03:40.588)

And again, that doesn't mean that just because you found a rub, you're going to see a buck. That doesn't mean that just because you found scruffed up leaves under a feed tree that there's going to be doe that come back to that tree that night. You're going to have misses. It's going to take time. Not every single hunt is going to provide a harvest animal. I do believe that the more mature bucks are a little bit more patternable in their bedding. I think that does sit a bedding and satellite groups where they can have maybe four or five does facing a different direction.

‍

Chris (01:03:44.686)

Right.

‍

Chris (01:04:10.222)

Different directions, yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:04:11.157)

Yeah, they can have an area where they're sitting out in the open. Younger deer that are being pushed out of the best bedding areas from the more mature bucks are going to have no choice but to bed out in these unpredictable areas. Maybe they were bedding down in the thick and then a big mature buck comes in and says, get out of my bed and he pushes them out and then he's just forced to just go sit out on the outskirts of the thicket and just kind of sit with the wind at his back and just overlook maybe just like a little ridge or something.

‍

Chris (01:04:39.906)

Right.

‍

Angelo (01:04:41.344)

I'm targeting mature bucks. mean, I think we both know that, you know, I will shoot a legal buck as it gets later in the season. And I just to fill a tag, we are hunting public land. So I will shoot anything respectable as we get closer to the end of the season. But starting at the beginning of the season, I'm not shooting smaller bucks, right? So, you know, I'm targeting mature bucks. And I feel that

‍

Chris (01:05:04.442)

Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:05:08.706)

the betting areas for mature bucks are a little bit more predictable. So I'm getting in as close as I can. I'm getting aggressive and I don't mind bumping a buck. I'd rather bump him and say, I know he's there. Right? Because I told you today, there were some things that I saw that were signed. I just expressed to everyone. It wasn't necessarily fresh, I, it was signed that a buck was in the area. I don't know if he's dead. I don't know if he's alive. I don't know if a hunter killed him already. I don't know if he got hit by a car. I don't know if a coyote got him. I don't know what happened, but

‍

Chris (01:05:19.886)

Right.

‍

Chris (01:05:37.966)

Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:05:38.588)

So I have no problem bumping a deer if it happens.

‍

Chris (01:05:41.592)

Right. And I just want to make a quick point, not to cut you off, but you're saying that you're targeting mature deer and this year, especially on the private property, especially with posts that deer that were chasing that 10 point, I'm sitting spots specifically for him. And what I've heard, what I've heard, what I've done anymore. See that data data data data got fucked up. Yeah. We did. did. 100 % fact. 100%.

‍

Angelo (01:05:57.922)

Yeah, you have him patterned. Well, you had him and you had... Listen, listen. You had him patterned. Fact. You had a shot at him. Fact. End of story. There's nothing else needs to be said. No, it doesn't matter who it was. There was a shot opportunity and the... Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:06:11.066)

Yeah, not me. Anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm being silly. I'm being silly. But the truth is what I'm getting at is the more you tailor your sits and your hunts towards specifically mature bucks, never mind an individual specific deer, if your goal is to target mature bucks, you better be ready to see less deer. And I'm seeing that this year.

‍

Angelo (01:06:27.287)

specific gear.

‍

Chris (01:06:40.682)

I've had to check myself multiple times. was actually just talking to Joey, our cousin. yesterday, the other day I was like, bro, I have been so humbled this year.

‍

because I've said it multiple times on this podcast. I have gone two years, the past two years, I have not had a sit and not seen deer. They might be off in the distance. They might be a hundred, 200 yards away, but I have not gone to sit in two years without seeing deer. A majority of my sits this year, I haven't seen a damn thing, but I'm sitting in funnels. I'm sitting on water.

‍

Like, you know, places where I've seen the big deer show up. I'm sitting right on the edge of the food plot where he showed up. I'm sitting in, I'm sitting on the bottom of ridges. I'm sitting on the edge of thick. I'm getting away from the food and sitting on the downwind side of food. I'm doing everything that goes against shoot a dough early because we've talked about this before too. I firmly believe that the best time to shoot a buck that's patterned is the earliest in the season.

‍

And this year has confirmed that for me. We had a buck that was patterned. I sat where he was. They were every single sit that we have sat, both myself and my dad have been high pressure sits, every single one. And we got the shot early season, like you said, and that's all that matters. You know, now I have to change things up. Now I got to get sneaky. Now he knows something's up. We got him and I shit you not.

‍

for two months straight. We never went more than two days in a row without seeing him daylight on our property. We talked to our neighbor who is caddy, who is butted up to us. And he only has two pictures of this deer. He has him once in the summer and then once in the middle of the night after my dad shot. He never saw him again, which not only means that I had this deer pattern, this deer was living on our property. You know, so

‍

Chris (01:08:43.158)

We always talk about how the harvest is great, but the real trophy is the story leading up to it. What did you put into it? How much work did you put into it? Who did you share the experience with? What's the story behind it? You know, like we, I got this mount up on my wall and yeah, that, that is a trophy, but the trophy isn't looking at it and saying, my goodness. That is, that's a first-class deer. That is a.

‍

I hunted that with my family. We found that last minute. I went in on a whim and hunted on the worst wind and the worst day. was windy as hell. I called him in. It's the first deer I ever shot calling in. So I can go on and on about the story behind this deer because that's the trophy to me. You know, so, sorry, I, I, cut you off. The point, the point of what I was trying to get at was the more mature deer you're targeting expect to see less deer.

‍

Angelo (01:09:31.724)

Nah, yeah. No, no.

‍

Angelo (01:09:37.134)

And that's why I like to go in and just go get them. Because they are smarter. They're not dumb. They're not dumb. OK? They know when pressure comes. every single study that's out there, you can look at all the different studies. People are getting better and better at learning deer habits. They'll all say that deer start to change their patterns when hunting season starts. It's just they know. They know. Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:09:40.504)

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

‍

Chris (01:09:59.139)

They're uneducated until they're educated. They will go along their normal summer pattern until you give them a reason not to. Right. Right. You really...

‍

Angelo (01:10:05.388)

I mean, they don't know the exact day. It's not like they got a pic. They don't get a copy of magazine. They didn't get an email from the Division of Fishing Game and say hunting season starts on the 15th this month. They know, yeah, you get one shot. They'll do what they're doing. As soon as they feel any type of pressure, now they know it's on. And that doesn't mean that they're going to go nocturnal or they're going to do this. It just means that they know it's on. They know it's on.

‍

Chris (01:10:16.8)

Exactly. You get one shot. You get one. Yep.

‍

Chris (01:10:24.558)

Yep.

‍

Chris (01:10:29.348)

They're just changing from moving based on instinct to moving based on education. A deer that's working on instinct is good.

‍

Angelo (01:10:36.566)

Yeah. mean, if you're playing hide and seek, if you're playing manhunt, we all played manhunt as a kid, right? You had to be tagged in order to be it, right? The guy comes around the corner and he sees you. You're not it yet, right? They got to get you. But now if you escape, you know you're being hunted. You know, you're going to change your tactics now because now you know that you were seen and now they know that you're nearby and now you have to be different because you're the closest one and you're on their radar.

‍

Chris (01:10:41.262)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Yeah?

‍

Chris (01:10:53.816)

Right. Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:11:06.048)

and they're probably going to not think about the other nine or 10 people that are out there hiding somewhere else. They know they're close to you and that's how they feel. That being said, we've got a story to share. I have been lucky enough to harvest a buck this year. It is the first of mine this season.

‍

Chris (01:11:13.323)

Exactly. Yep.

‍

Chris (01:11:27.864)

the first wing and tail boys buck is really what it is.

‍

Angelo (01:11:29.388)

It's the first wing and tail boys buck, which is great. Again, more difficulty with the camera. I'll get to that point. I guess I'll tell the story. So I've been hunting a deer called road rash. There's a couple of deer in this area that I've seen that I've had laid eyes on that I've been targeting, but they're, you know, again, they're really smart. And this area that I'm hunting is extremely, extremely thick, covered in thorn bushes, sticker bushes, whatever you call them.

‍

I'm sure that there's a scientific name for them, I mean, you cannot, yeah, the briars, you cannot walk through this property really. And there's a couple different, you know, lanes, but you know, we've got a lot of pressure. We've been, we've been, again, I beat this to a pulp. We've been enlisted by the township that I'm hunting in to cull the deer herd and as a responsibility to them, we have to shoot a certain amount of deer.

‍

Chris (01:12:01.028)

Briars.

‍

Angelo (01:12:25.324)

between me and the other guy that I know that's hunting the property, we've already shot six deer on this property. So we're doing our part. The deer know they're being hunted. Right? So these bigger bucks know that it's on. So, you know, I've had to try to find out where, yeah, I've had to try to find out where they are. And I found this little piece of the property that's kind of basically kind of like, I called it the buck nest.

‍

Chris (01:12:39.438)

Where's Fred?

‍

Angelo (01:12:53.048)

probably need to tone that down that that terminology is probably a little too too misleading for what this property is but it seems to be a rotating bedding area it seems like when I found it I did an observation sit which is kind of goes against with what I'm saying with being aggressive but I did an observation sit and I saw Road Rash for the first time on the hoof during the technically daylight but it was literally like the last 10 minutes of daylight he came out of this bedding area

‍

and I knew I was close. The next thing I did was probably the first mistake I made was I didn't... as soon as I saw where he came from I didn't move my stand to get a little bit more aggressive. I played it safe an additional sit and I ended up seeing a small little group of less mature bucks but it seemed like there was like

‍

Maybe two, three and a half year olds. Maybe one was a three and a half year old. One was a four and a half year old. and then there ended up being another small buck that was with them. One of the things that you had touched on earlier was, you know, keeping busy by using your camera and you can do this. What I found though is like, I get locked in on some time. Some people get target panic and I'm not saying I don't suffer from it, but I get target distraction. As soon as I see an animal that I know I'm going to harvest, I get

‍

Chris (01:14:13.487)

Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:14:16.87)

distracted by that animal and sometimes I'm not aware of my surroundings and maybe there's an additional deer that can see me or you know catch me moving or whatever else. Sometimes I get too zoned in because as we all know you can have very little time to get yourself in the position to shoot. Sometimes it happens very quickly you've got to be ready. So I've realized that I've started blocking things out and I'm getting tunnel vision. In this scenario

‍

Chris (01:14:22.125)

Agreed.

‍

Angelo (01:14:45.398)

I had plenty of time. Hindsight being 20-20, I observed these deer for like 40 minutes, maybe longer. And I have great footage of them raking trees, rubbing trees, making scrapes, kind of not sparring, like kind of like, you know, testing each other, like, yeah, like squaring up. Yeah, kind of doing that. And I did have a shot at this one deer. It's...

‍

Chris (01:15:02.579)

Like squaring each other up. Yeah. I see why I am my girl. Back up.

‍

Angelo (01:15:12.384)

It seemed to me at that time that he was like a small eight, but he had some decent points on him and the other deer looked like a six pointer and then eventually another small spike came in later on. But there was one shot that I had that I didn't take thinking I was going to get a better one. And I ended up not getting a shot at him. And I was holding off in my mind because I was like, it's not the deer I'm after, right?

‍

But we're getting closer to the end of the season. In New Jersey, we have a split bow season where come October 25th, the first season ends and then we have a permit bow season, which basically New Jersey's taking advantage of the bow hunters wanting us to pay for an additional season to be able to hunt the pre-rut time period.

‍

Chris (01:16:01.444)

Do I have another weekend to hunt after this weekend in Jersey?

‍

Angelo (01:16:03.704)

Well, no. so you have this weekend coming up will be the 18th. We have our cousin's wedding is the Friday, the 18th. Saturday's the 19th. The season ends on Friday, the 25th. So the new season starts on the, that Saturday, the 26th will be new season. So there's really only one more weekend hunt for the weekend hunters in the bow season in New Jersey. So I know that I'm not going to be hunting this coming weekend because I'm going to be

‍

Chris (01:16:08.472)

Yes.

‍

Chris (01:16:16.794)

Friday, my god.

‍

Chris (01:16:23.236)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:16:30.741)

Open Sunday!

‍

Angelo (01:16:33.634)

doing stuff with the family the day after the wedding. I'm this, that's it. have this week and I don't know when daylight savings happens, but that's going to happen soon too. And then once daylight savings happens, there's not going to be a lot of opportunities to hunt after work. So, you know, we're going to have to see how that goes, but I knew that I was only going to have one more weekend left. This Thursday that just passed was 10 10.

‍

Angelo (01:17:05.92)

I went in and I had had a couple sits prior to this where I didn't see much. saw two does on Tuesday. I went in on Wednesday and I saw two spikes and then I went in on Thursday and I knew that at this point, if I saw this other deer, I probably was not going to pass him knowing that if road rash comes, obviously that's my target buck.

‍

But if this other deer comes, I'd probably gonna have limited chances to get back out and I'm probably gonna harvest this deer to not waste attack.

‍

Chris (01:17:41.754)

So have you seen this deer before you shot him?

‍

Angelo (01:17:44.15)

So again, like I said, I saw Road Rash and an observation sit. The very next sit, other than getting aggressive, I did the same sit in the same stand. And I never do that. Never do that. And I saw these two deer, which is the other deer now that is on my radar. So I didn't name him. It wasn't the type of thing. He wasn't on my radar. But now it got to the point where I'm up against it. We're running out of time in this season.

‍

Chris (01:17:47.674)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

‍

Chris (01:17:54.84)

Right, same tree, which you never do. You never sit the same tree twice in a row.

‍

Chris (01:18:05.689)

Okay.

‍

Angelo (01:18:14.188)

I don't want to get stuck with a tag in my hand and my freezer's not full. So for all the people who say, you know, I want to fill my freezer. I had a doe earlier in the season, but my freezer's not full. So I'm not going to get super picky till it is full. So I would have no problem taking this deer. Yeah. So yeah. So I said, you know what? This deer is a respectable deer. was, it was, I was able to see that from a distance. So I said, you know, I'm going to make the move and get aggressive. So again,

‍

Chris (01:18:24.874)

Yeah

‍

Chris (01:18:29.517)

You're one dear short of where you should be.

‍

Angelo (01:18:43.416)

Tuesday I saw the two does, Wednesday I saw two spikes, and then Thursday 1010 comes and I get in there in the afternoon. I was running late. I was doing errand for a neighbor of mine who was in a pinch. Older gentleman, Chinese gentleman, he's in his 90s, he was driving, he fell asleep behind the wheel, hit a guard rail, got mangled, very lucky to be alive, but his daughter said, like, listen, dad, you're moving in with me, like you have to. So I actually

‍

helped him move with my truck, helped him move. And I was hoping to get back in time, but I was running late. And I was like, you know, I don't even know if I want to go and ruin the spot because you know, this I've been having perfect wind. didn't mention that yet, but perfect wind for like a week. Yeah. For like a week straight though. I've been having like a steady six to seven mile an hour wind, Northwest wind. It was constant the whole time I was in, I was out, I was undetected every single time that I was there.

‍

Chris (01:19:26.648)

And it was windy as hell that day.

‍

Angelo (01:19:41.448)

And I said, you know what, I'm going for it. I didn't even get into my tree until 5.33 exactly. 5.33 was when I finished getting set up. And I was like, I don't know if I bumped anything coming in. I didn't see anything get disturbed. So I was like, I'm probably OK. I set up my camera. And I was making sure all my angles are good. And I was set.

‍

Last light at that day was 6.55. At 6.50, I hear a noise, a rustle. I mean, I was fighting every urge to start putting my stuff away. But I just knew that when I saw Road Rash, he came in with like no light left. So I was like, unless it's no legal shooting light left, if it's past legal shooting time, I'll get down. I'll risk it. If I haven't seen anything, I'm just going to risk it.

‍

Chris (01:20:20.448)

Ha ha.

‍

Angelo (01:20:36.27)

If something sees me getting in my tree, mean, what am I going to do? But I'm not going to stay till 930. What am I going

‍

Chris (01:20:38.988)

Now real quick, right, I'm with you on that, but real quick, when you started to see the time coming down, you haven't seen anything at the end of the day, how much are you sitting there like, man, man, man, I just wanna get home? You know what I mean? that,

‍

Angelo (01:20:51.436)

I mean in the colds creeping in, know, start.

‍

No, I know it's like, it's another wasted sit. I'm skunked. Like I just saw every single sit I sat here, I've seen deer. And the one time I get aggressive, I've put my scent in this area and I don't see anything.

‍

Chris (01:21:03.694)

Yeah, I did.

‍

Chris (01:21:09.786)

I did it last year. went out for my first sit, virgin sit in this place on great sign. Found three scrapes and three different rubs fresh as hell within the last couple of days. Sat it, beautiful sit. And it was the first time I ever climbed with the camera. And I was like, you know what? I'm just going to come down. was like 15 minutes left of shooting. I was like, I'm just going to come down. And the second my fucking backpack hit the ground, a nice shooter buck, like I saw him. I was like, my God, I fucked up. You know, so anyway, sorry.

‍

Angelo (01:21:36.366)

So I've learned my lesson. I've done it before I had the pie ball dough come out just a couple weeks before that it was last light I put my camera away. I put my camera gear away, and I wasn't able to get on camera So I was really upset so I've been Telling myself I'm keeping the camera out and on until Last light until last legal shooting time Yeah, so the way I'm set up is I'm setting up in a saddle. I'm in a tree. That's a

‍

Chris (01:21:39.203)

Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:21:59.298)

Until legal is over. Yep.

‍

Angelo (01:22:05.526)

very very thick bass and it splits into three trunks. Okay so I'm in your perfect type of setup. I'm on the middle trunk so I've got my strong shot is over my left shoulder and I've got the trunk that's the you know the outside trunk is basically to my back and that's where the bedding area is where I've seen the most traffic. They're coming through this shooting lane that I cut out a couple branches I had to trim.

‍

but they're coming out right on my strong side. I've got another shooting lane directly to my left. There's another little trail that comes down. But in front of me, which is north, right? Wind's coming northwest, north. I've got the tree in front of me because I'm in my saddle. And then I've got the other trunk, the third trunk. All of that's got leaves on it. And I didn't trim any of it because

‍

It's like, there's no, there's no point. It's, it's, it's my, it's my least desirable shot, but there's, you know what I mean? It's, I'm not expecting anything from coming, coming from there. I'm expecting stuff coming from the bedding area. And then there's trails behind me. And if I needed to, can, so where I shot the pie ball dough is directly behind me South. Okay. So anything coming from that river crossing is going to be coming up towards me and my wind should be cutting them just enough.

‍

Chris (01:23:02.084)

You need the cover. You need the cover. Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:23:14.499)

Right.

‍

Angelo (01:23:31.01)

that they're not getting my scent unless they get it in the river because hopefully the river is pulling my scent. But you know, it's far enough. It's like an 80 yards, 90 yards down that maybe it doesn't affect them. So all the traffic has been coming from my strong side. Every single day. I the does came that way. The spikes came that way. Everything. Five minutes, five minutes before legal shooting light is up, I hear rustling and leaves coming from the north, which is the

‍

Chris (01:23:36.152)

Right?

‍

Chris (01:23:51.96)

hi Hunter.

‍

Angelo (01:24:00.746)

worst possible spot that they could be coming from. So I'm like, okay, something's coming. I don't know what it is. I'm expecting it to be Road Rash. I'm thinking it's last light. This is my chance. This is my guy. Yeah, till you see it, right? This is him. I know it. I feel it. So he's coming directly at me. And what I need him to do is I need him to go right. So he goes to my left and he comes into my second strong shot. My number two shot and

‍

Chris (01:24:03.918)

Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:24:13.186)

Every deer is your deer until you see it.

‍

Angelo (01:24:29.994)

ends up happening is he goes left. So now I've got to get my camera gear across my body, I've got to turn to my weak side, I've got the camera on but I'm just... I put the LCD screen open and I hit record and I was putting it in a position where I'm waiting to see movement so that I could put the camera. So at this point I'm just aiming the camera. Once I realize he's going

‍

the opposite way that I need him to go. I know I've got a little bit more time because he's coming across all of that brush before I can see him again. So I'm getting the camera more set up and what I realized is SD card is full. I was, I mean, beside myself. I really honestly could not believe that what I was seeing when I

‍

Chris (01:25:22.638)

Let me see this, did you have it lined up? Do you think if the camera didn't die that you had the shot?

‍

Angelo (01:25:27.392)

If the camera didn't die, I would have had the shot on camera. 100%. 100%.

‍

When I set up the camera, I guess I accidentally hit record and I just was recording what it was pointing at for until it got full. It had space on the card when I got in the tree. It's just I sat from 530 and I started recording at 530 until the card was full. Yet that day, no, it was that day I got.

‍

Chris (01:25:42.618)

forever.

‍

Chris (01:25:50.618)

Were you...

‍

Chris (01:25:55.98)

no, you literally, my, I thought you told me, when we talked on the phone, you were like, you were like, bro, you're like, bro, I recorded him coming in and I set it for the shot and then,

‍

Angelo (01:26:01.966)

I didn't know, I didn't know, because when I called you, I called you from the tree.

‍

Angelo (01:26:09.142)

Well, I thought it was on. It didn't even record even two seconds of him. It was recording from 530 when I got in my tree up until the card was full. And then I didn't get anything after that. So I've got like one hour's worth of footage of my strong shot, but nothing's there. It's just the woods. So if I didn't accidentally hit record, I would have had the shot on camera.

‍

Chris (01:26:16.065)

God.

‍

Chris (01:26:21.401)

Chris (01:26:26.858)

of nothing.

‍

Chris (01:26:31.074)

Yo, you gotta get...

‍

Chris (01:26:36.514)

you gotta get yourself one of those 256 gigabyte because even if like, I'm only saying that because with the camera you have, with that chip in, can literally get five hours of straight footage and never have to, I, in my camera.

‍

Angelo (01:26:38.71)

i know i know i know

‍

Angelo (01:26:45.804)

I might have been able to have it all, yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:26:51.596)

Yeah. So what I also had on the camera was I had one of our podcast episodes still on the camera and I had the footage from the does and I had the footage from the spikes and I had the footage from the first time I saw these deer that are walking in right now.

‍

Chris (01:26:56.802)

Okay. Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:27:02.5)

bright.

‍

Chris (01:27:09.498)

Do you know off the top of your head the size of your by any chance? Okay. Yeah. So if you... Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:27:12.814)

64. I probably would have been good even with the 64 because the podcast episode that was on there was like an hour and 20 minutes or something like that. yeah, if I didn't record what I got in the tree, I would have been good. If my card was cleared and I just had the blank card, I would have been good.

‍

Chris (01:27:22.296)

Yeah, you would have been okay if you didn't record when you got in the tree. Right.

‍

Chris (01:27:31.514)

Right. have in my, in my GoPro, I have a 128, 128 gig. I can literally record for six hours straight on 4k. If I put it down to 10 80, I get, I think I get like nine or 12 hours of ridiculous. Yeah. In my.

‍

Angelo (01:27:33.166)

.

‍

Angelo (01:27:37.25)

Yeah, me too. It might go private, the same thing.

‍

Angelo (01:27:46.062)

Yeah, mine's on 1080 and I have the 128 on my GoPros.

‍

Chris (01:27:52.032)

In my like point and shoot camera, like my main camera, have a two 56 and a one 28. And I think I get like four hours and 45 minutes worth of recording potential at 4k. I think it's like 60 frames per second or something like that. Like legit, legit. could, I could bump it up to. I don't think that camera takes 5k, but I could bump it up to like 4k. The absolute best quality.

‍

But my computers can't handle it right now.

‍

Angelo (01:28:23.264)

Yes. So, I mean, so that's really where I was at. So, I mean, I was stunned, stunned. I mean, but I couldn't deal with it. I couldn't do anything. Like I was like, okay, fuck it. Yeah. Look, like, no, but I mean, I know that, right? So I know the deer is the most important thing. I mean, for me, it's like, I want to get it on camera, but I've already told you I'm not passing up deer. So as soon as I saw SD card full, I mean, I was heartbroken, but I just, I'd let it go. Like I just stopped. I stopped.

‍

Chris (01:28:32.474)

There was nothing you could do with it. are you supposed to do? Let the deer pass? Nah. Nah.

‍

Chris (01:28:42.052)

Sure.

‍

Nah.

‍

Angelo (01:28:52.768)

messing with the camera. I did have the GoPro running because it was last light and because it was to my weak side. I had to turn my back to the GoPro. So it was originally set up to take the video of me shooting. It was my personal angle, but anything behind me with the GoPro, sometimes you can still get it. So I was hoping that on my strong side, I might still get some GoPro footage of the shot.

‍

Chris (01:29:02.914)

If your back was, yeah.

‍

Mm-hmm.

‍

Chris (01:29:21.443)

Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:29:22.336)

Not that I was thinking of it that way when I set it up, like as a backup, but I'm just saying in general, if it would have came from my strong side, it might have been a chance where I could have got it on camera on the GoPro. It's not pitch black. You can see me shoot, but you can't see the deer in the footage. no, no, you wouldn't have even saw that. You wouldn't have even saw that.

‍

Chris (01:29:34.712)

Now that's why...

‍

Chris (01:29:44.248)

Yeah, you need lighted knocks. You need fire knocks. You need fire knocks is what you need.

‍

Angelo (01:29:50.06)

So I have lighted knocks, it just so happens that all my knocks are dead. So they're not. But you wouldn't have even seen it anyway. You would have maybe see the little zip of the light go by. So what happened is he's... Yeah, go ahead.

‍

Chris (01:29:57.07)

Yeah, so... Right. What the hell?

‍

Chris (01:30:07.896)

Real quick, real quick, real quick. This is where you and I differ. So just to clarify for the listeners, your GoPro is clipped to your tether, right? If I'm not mistaken.

‍

Angelo (01:30:16.78)

Well, I'm going to find something different, for right now, yes, it's facing me. It's on the very, very top of my safety line. Anywhere I move, it follows me.

‍

Chris (01:30:20.014)

Okay.

‍

Chris (01:30:25.314)

Right. So you're so I know you're not a fan of screwing things into a tree, but you might want to make an exception for this. What I do is.

‍

Angelo (01:30:33.602)

Well, this is actually probably something that could have helped me because if it was coming in and it wasn't to my strong side, but it was still behind me on my left side, if I would have swung to shoot it, it probably would have got it because it would have swung with me. If you screw it into a tree, now you have to move it yourself.

‍

Chris (01:30:40.473)

Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:30:45.731)

Right.

‍

Chris (01:30:50.402)

Yeah, yeah, if it was. So no, no. So what I have is I have actually a the mount that I have, it screws in, but it's meant for a trail camera. So it has two ball joints on it. So it has the ball joint on the tree side.

‍

the bracket that holds it all together and then a ball joint on the GoPro side. I set it above my head, but I have it in super wide view. So you can see literally my entire body, the tree all the way down the trunk and everything behind me. What I'm gonna lose is super, super off to the side or super, super off to the side. Right, but you don't have to...

‍

Angelo (01:31:29.762)

Yeah, I mean, even for me, mean, you're not going to see that too. But what I did get was you're using it for your footage of you.

‍

Chris (01:31:39.694)

Well, me, it's yeah, it's a footage for me, but the way I have it set up, if I have it. Yeah, exactly.

‍

Angelo (01:31:43.116)

you can also get other stuff. because my GoPro set up for me, even though I had to swing all the way to my weak side that you said you can't get, it still got me, which is what I want the GoPro to do.

‍

Chris (01:31:49.146)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Chris (01:31:55.288)

Yeah, will get me anywhere that I swing on the tree, my GoPro will get me. What it won't get is the shot anywhere other than like straight behind me. But again, the GoPro is for me. Like you're not a fan of entry interviews. I love to do that. Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:32:13.356)

I do it. I do it. I don't talk that much. I've done it in the past in other spots. But I have some of that stuff.

‍

Chris (01:32:20.858)

What I personally like to do is I like to paint the picture. Like I'll wake up in the morning, show you me making my breakfast, making coffee, like just a quick, like 30, like not even 30 seconds, like a quick three second brew in my coffee, making my breakfast, getting the stuff in the car. I'm giving you an interview on the way to my spot. I'm telling you kind of where I'm looking to go. Like not obviously the specific spot, but I'm kind of outlining my strategy for the day. When I get in the tree. Yeah. You know,

‍

Angelo (01:32:24.462)

.

‍

Angelo (01:32:44.78)

Yeah, I probably need to do a little bit more of that, but I do have some of the table talk type stuff, the interview type stuff in the tree.

‍

Chris (01:32:51.128)

Yeah. You know, and then my thing is what ends up becoming cool is like, especially like for like this year for you, you have found pretty quick success. I have had, I've been struggling this year. I've been riding the struggle bus, but when I finally find that success, I have all of that information to kind of tell the story that ends, you know what I mean? So like, yeah, that, you know, well, yeah, but it,

‍

Angelo (01:33:13.634)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but you could do that at any time too, right? Not that I, not, but for the viewer, just let's be real. I could film me brewing coffee three months later, if I haven't posted the video yet and still make you think that I brewed coffee that morning. So listen, no, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. I'm just telling you in the industry, not that we're professionals, but you know, that's how that works. You know what I mean? It's all B-roll. You can take that footage whenever you want. You just edit it in.

‍

Chris (01:33:21.452)

Less, it's less, it's just less genuine.

‍

Chris (01:33:28.92)

Yeah, I'm not doing that. Like guys, literally, I wake up every morning, I make a cup of coffee. Yeah. Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:33:43.748)

For sure. I wake up, I make some coffee, I make three eggs. Every time I go hunting, I make the same thing. I make three eggs. The protein in the eggs holds me over for most of the day. And I bring some cliff bars in the woods with me. That's it. And water. That's way I go. But we're rolling up on an hour. We're just over an hour and half. So go ahead and finish up your story and we'll wrap this up. Sorry, that's honestly half my fault.

‍

Angelo (01:33:44.354)

Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:34:00.012)

Yeah, so I'm just gonna finish up and then, So, he's coming in, yeah, no. He's coming in from the north. I need him to go left. He goes right. Camera's got, camera's full. I got the GoPro on me. It's last light. I got like two minutes left to shoot this deer. To my right, which is where he's coming from, there's like one branch that goes out.

‍

Chris (01:34:10.788)

course.

‍

Angelo (01:34:26.584)

And then there's like a grapevine that's hanging down from it. So it's like, I have no shot until he's 90 degrees to my right. So I get set up, I spin around, I've got the seatbelt thing going on, right? I've got my saddle strap over my shoulder. I'm back, I get swung, I draw the bow back and I'm at full draw. I don't know how long, I can review it in the footage, but.

‍

Chris (01:34:52.964)

Felt like an hour.

‍

Angelo (01:34:54.286)

No, it was fine. I was okay holding it but it was was decent decent amount of time and He's hung up He can smell my ground scent he had to have he stopped right where I cut in to try to walk to my tree I could see his antlers. I could identify that it's this Deer that I thought was an eight pointer ended up being a seven pointer. I could see his neck

‍

I can see the front of his shoulder. I can't see his armpit. And I'm like, one step. I just need you to take one step. And it's like, I'm just waiting. I'm just waiting. And light is fading. just, he's disappearing right in front of me. I mean, he's five yards. He's right under my tree and he's just disappearing. And thankfully he did take one step and it was with his right foot.

‍

As soon as he exposes his armpit, I just let the arrow go. And I knew I hit him. I can hear the impact. I did not hear like the big pop like you would think when you double lung a deer. I didn't hear that big pop like, so I didn't know. It's low light, got no camera footage to review. Don't have a good sound verification. I see him take a couple leaps.

‍

He did not run and bound high with his tail up like he would if he would have not been hit. He was running, stopped, started to run again, stopped, then walked a little bit.

‍

Then he was flickering his tail a lot. Flickering his tail, flickering his tail. That's a sign that you hit him good. I didn't really think of that in the tree at the time, but a lot of times when they're flickering that tail, they're like, something's going on. I thought I heard him crash. Then I was like, he crashed, he crashed. I got him. I think he was standing there for a while. So I called you. was like, I couldn't see.

‍

Chris (01:36:41.689)

Hmm.

‍

Chris (01:36:48.538)

It's not me right? Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:36:54.842)

Yeah, you called, I was on the phone with you for that one. You called me right away.

‍

Angelo (01:37:02.872)

couldn't see. saw him flickering, all of sudden I couldn't see the tail anymore. So I called you and I thought I heard him crash. Then I...

‍

Chris (01:37:11.258)

And I'm a little more west than you, so I have just a little bit more light than you do. So like, I was just starting to climb down and you were like, bro, it's like dark, I just shot a buck. I'm like.

‍

Angelo (01:37:18.154)

I can't, my gosh, I just got a book. He's standing there, he's standing there. I thought I heard him crash, but then I heard more rustling. So I was like, I think maybe he like kind of, you know, just busted through maybe like a briar or something. I know that like to get out of that little bedding area there, it's a little thick. So they kind of like pushed through like a little vegetation to kind of get out into the open. So I thought that's what he did. I thought maybe he went in there.

‍

And then he started to walk off and now I'm starting to think maybe I hit him in the guts. He just realized he got hit at that spot. And now he's like, he's just going to go mosey off and lay down. So then you were telling me, let me call you back, right? I'm about to get out of my tree. I'll call you back. We'll talk about it, figure out what's going on. And I called my brother to see where he was at, see if he can come help me try to find it or help me carry it, whatever. While I was on the phone with him, I heard another rustling.

‍

So now I got even less confidence. Now I'm like, this deer is walking away. This deer is like bedded down. I just got to back out. I just got to get out of here. So I finished talking to my brother as I'm about to hang out and hang out with my brother. The six pointer that was hanging out with him was still at the base of my tree. Didn't even know he was there. I shot the seven pointer. He didn't move. Nothing. I had no clue he was even there.

‍

As I'm hanging up with my brother, I guess I started to kind of get things together, because I was getting ready to get down. I made the decision to get down. He blew and ran. Not far. He just went, and just took like a one leap and a bound. he was, you know, maybe he was at 10 yards. He went to about 20, 25 yards. And then I'm guessing he moseyed off after that, because pretty much after that, I didn't even care that he was there. I knew what deer it was. I'd turn my light on.

‍

Chris (01:38:58.872)

Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:39:07.468)

And I didn't see him staring at me. I didn't see his eyes reflecting in the nighttime. So that was it. So I get down out of my tree. I go over to the trail where I know that he was standing. I go to inspect the area to see if there's any blood or anything. And I find my arrow soaked from tip to knock, just soaked in blood. And I'm like, I think I got him. I think I got this deer. I think I smoked this deer.

‍

So I picked up my arrow, I put it in my quiver, I started following the trail. I did see that there was a little bit of blood to follow. So what I did was I went and I put my bow and my backpack down at the river crossing. And I came back to the initial spot where the blood trail started. And I started to follow his blood trail. Very little bit of blood to start. I mean, very hard to follow. was multiple, there was multiple, full pass through, straight down.

‍

Chris (01:39:47.898)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Chris (01:39:58.618)

Really? And you had a pass through? I can't believe that. That's what I'm saying. I wasn't going to give that up, but you hit perfect heart and you were five feet, you was five yards away, you said, and it was basically straight down and no, I can't believe that.

‍

Angelo (01:40:04.807)

One lung and perfect heart punch.

‍

And that's fine, I mean, I'm gonna get to the point, because again, I'm trying to finish up the story.

‍

Angelo (01:40:16.558)

five yards away, perfect pass through, arrow sticking straight up in the ground, went through him and into the dirt. And there you go with the 300 arrow and the gold tip, like the torch was telling us. I mean, straight pass through, boom, couldn't have been a better shot. The blood was actually really spotty to start off. Again, he was bounding though, so maybe I was just missing the better spots.

‍

Chris (01:40:23.928)

That's insane, no blood. That's crazy.

‍

Chris (01:40:29.929)

That's right. There you go, Dorj.

‍

Chris (01:40:44.319)

But like, yeah, where he was landing or whatever.

‍

Angelo (01:40:46.402)

where he was landing there was maybe better or maybe it was shooting out the side but I was only getting what dripped so I was getting very little bit and back there there's a lot of different deer runs so I'm following the blood but I'm also kind of trying to follow the trails because it's so thick like I really can only go where it's something's already walked I ended up finding the blood trail it started to get way better I started to get way more excited as I started to see that the blood got better

‍

Chris (01:40:59.331)

you

‍

Angelo (01:41:15.244)

and then I could smell them. I could smell that musty, thick urine smell that, you know, it's just...

‍

Chris (01:41:25.474)

Were his glands all, were his glands brown yet or no?

‍

Angelo (01:41:28.812)

His glands were not as brown as I thought they would be for as bad as he smelled.

‍

Chris (01:41:33.571)

The deer I saw either they were almost perfectly white

‍

Angelo (01:41:36.514)

They were not stained, they were not stained that much. But you would think that on a mature deer that they would have been more stained. I'm guessing when they change coats, they change that hair as well. So maybe that's why. Because you would think that a mature deer, they would just be stained all the time. You know I mean? But no, no, no.

‍

Chris (01:41:49.306)

I don't know, I don't know.

‍

Chris (01:41:55.77)

Maybe, maybe I didn't, I've never given thought to that. thought that, know, it just washes off with the rain.

‍

Angelo (01:42:01.142)

So I ended up walking up to him. I realized he was dead. He's dead. We got where he was. I think he might've just had a couple spasms that made that extra little bit of brush noises. When I walked up to him, his body was huge. I mean, I've shot mature deer before.

‍

He looked older in body than he did in antlers. So I don't know if maybe it was a genetic thing. I don't know if it was malnutrition. Just there's a lot of briars there, like I said, not a lot of oaks, not a lot of food. There's no egg or anything like that. So maybe it's like a malnutrition thing where they he didn't just get big. But I mean, his neck was so fat.

‍

Chris (01:42:34.297)

Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:42:48.322)

Yeah, they're getting they're getting that rut neck going for sure.

‍

Angelo (01:42:48.462)

I he was nice size. I had him at 170 pounds based on me having to use my body weight to hoist him. Had to be in like the 170 range. I ended up scoring him. I'm not a big score guy. I don't even know that my, I have like a 17.9, I don't even know the score that dear.

‍

What I had just recently saw something that they did like a Texas A study on correlation of antler size for deer age. And that's what made me want to find out. you care to venture a guess? saw the deer. Do you care to venture a guess? you even, I mean, I don't know if you know like, gross score, gross score.

‍

Chris (01:43:25.295)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Chris (01:43:32.484)

So here, what are you saying? Are you saying what it scored? I would say, and going off of this deer, and for those of you that can't see it, this deer, this deer, yeah, yeah, this deer grossed at 112. So what, based on what I saw and the lack of time, like I would say he grossed somewhere in the 90s.

‍

Angelo (01:43:46.372)

I don't know if we're even going have video, but maybe in the future.

‍

Chris (01:44:02.116)

But I would also venture to guess that that deer was probably, again, I didn't see it on the hoof. He looked to have like an old ass face. He looked like he was like nine years old. I'm not kidding.

‍

Angelo (01:44:12.302)

So 18 and 3 quarter inch spread, inside spread on his antlers. Decent inside spread.

‍

Chris (01:44:18.938)

Okay. Yeah. He did have a really, I mean, he was like, he almost grew out and barely came back in. Yeah. I'll give it yep. Yep. Yep.

‍

Angelo (01:44:23.374)

He was very wide, barely came back in, very wide, pretty thick, 97. 97, 97. And I was shocked. I was shocked to see that it was that big. And there was, if you're net, he's probably like net 93 or 92, something like that.

‍

Chris (01:44:32.563)

I called you! Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:44:44.93)

Yeah, well that's after it dries and it cures and whatever it is.

‍

Angelo (01:44:47.758)

No, but I mean, he's 97. So what got my attention, the reason why I wanted to do it was I feel like I don't have anything that really can tell me other than what I think he should be age wise based on what his antlers look like. I said three and a half. I think he probably is more like four and a half. If I, my gut tells me I think he's a little bit older and it's just his genes have.

‍

Chris (01:44:51.588)

Good.

‍

Chris (01:45:06.457)

Okay.

‍

Chris (01:45:10.851)

Wow.

‍

Angelo (01:45:15.982)

suppressed his character in his antlers. I don't think he's a three and a half old deer. I think he's a four and a half year old deer. Now this is

‍

Chris (01:45:25.048)

He looks like an old deer. I didn't see him on the hoof though. Like, my thing is, my biggest tell personally, and I know after listening to enough stuff, I know that there's no guaranteed way of saying this deer is this old. For me...

‍

Angelo (01:45:36.598)

I mean, I have him laying basically broadside on the ground. have footage of that. You might be able to say, I know you didn't see him on the hoof. mean, maybe just a little bit of the air out of his lungs. You wouldn't maybe see, but you'll see how thick his neck is and you'll realize why I think he's four and a half and he's not three and a half.

‍

Chris (01:45:44.598)

It's more the-

‍

Chris (01:45:53.458)

For me, me, biggest thing and I kind of saw it with the spike this year, the spike 100 % is last year's fall without a doubt. But his legs were so close together. I mean like maybe four inches inside of leg to inside of leg.

‍

And as those deer get older and those chests start to broaden, their legs start to spread out. So for me personally, when I'm aging a deer on the hook, that's what I'm looking for is that, is that, well, right, right. But then, but then again, but then again, as that chest is broadening, it's also growing deeper, right? So there's, there's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to see it. I haven't even seen it.

‍

Angelo (01:46:21.25)

I mean, that's assuming you can see them from every angle and you can really even look at all that.

‍

Angelo (01:46:29.42)

Yeah, I mean, again, I can't wait to get the footage out. I can't wait to show you guys all the different footage. can't wait to. I've got footage of him raking trees, rubbing trees. I got pictures, so much footage of this deer. Can't wait to share it. Anyway, to get to the final point here, what I thought was really cool is the study in Texas A they did for age compared to antler size. We all know that a four to five and a half month old deer

‍

Chris (01:46:41.396)

I haven't seen any of that. I haven't seen any of that. So.

‍

Angelo (01:46:59.158)

It's just got visible nubs, right? So yearling deer, visible nubs. Once they get to the first year and a half of their life, their rack potential is 26 % of their full potential. So if you were to harvest a deer and it was only one and a half years old, you could measure the deer's growth score on their antlers and you, on average, this is just an average, that would be 26 % of the deer's full potential in its life.

‍

Now again, this is probably deer from the Midwest or down south near Texas where they did a study. yeah, so let's take a look at a grain of salt. Two and a half years old, the deer is expressing 63 % of his full potential. At three and a half years old, he's expressing 80 % of his future potential, which means that if this deer, which I think was maybe four and a half, but if it was three and a half.

‍

Chris (01:47:34.017)

With a grain of salt take it with a grain of salt. Yeah

‍

Angelo (01:47:57.966)

scoring 97 his full potential would have been 120. Okay, they're saying here in this study that at six and a half years old on average throughout all the deer that they showed they express 100 % of their genes at six and a half and then start to decline not by much but they start to decline after six and a half years old. So again, they're saying that at six and a half this deer could have potentially been 120 and that's assuming this I don't know the exact age of this deer.

‍

Chris (01:48:27.812)

The big debate going on. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:48:28.034)

That means that, one last thing, I'm only going to go to the next one. Four and a half years, 92 % of potential. Five and a half years, 98 % of potential. So if this deer was four and a half years old, at 97 score, his full potential would have been 105. So I just thought it was cool to see the potential of it, what it could have been, because, you know,

‍

Chris (01:48:49.657)

Yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:48:56.288)

If you're looking at, this is something you might want to do on your property, you can send in the dental records, not dental records, but you can send in the teeth, you can get them tested, you could figure out how to do it yourself. You could find out the exact age of the deer on your property and you can start to say, okay, well, I'm harvesting deer over the next amount of years. These are the scores of those deers. These are the ages of those deers.

‍

Chris (01:49:05.518)

Yeah. Yep.

‍

Angelo (01:49:22.696)

if we let them express their full potential at six years old, what could be the class of deer on our property?

‍

Chris (01:49:30.926)

Right, I think that would be great.

‍

Angelo (01:49:35.532)

And then you can also see now, right? If you were to harvest posts, God willing you do. If you harvest posts and you say, okay, he's four and a half years old and you score him at whatever, maybe something similar to your deer, 115. If he's at four and a half, you can see through the nutrition that you build in this property and through the quality food that you get them. If you harvest another four and a half year old deer, maybe five years down the road, if the

‍

Chris (01:49:40.494)

Yeah. Yeah.

‍

Chris (01:49:57.828)

how things improve.

‍

Angelo (01:50:04.522)

expressed potential is greater or the same. You can see if it's changing. You can start to monitor that.

‍

Chris (01:50:07.414)

is changing. Yeah. No, I think that would be great. I think that would be a lot of fun too. Like, you know, being a math guy, all those statistics and gathering data and organizing it and using it to like, you know, make predictions like that is right in my wheelhouse. I love that shit. You know,

‍

Angelo (01:50:24.834)

Yeah, and that's something that you can do. Like, listen, if you guys have a property where you say, listen, we got a lot of pressure surrounding our property, we can't afford to let a deer get to six and a half years old. If we're lucky enough to harvest a deer at six and a half years old, amazing. But we're targeting deer at three and a half percent. You don't. Yeah. Well, that's fine. Yeah, there's going to be there's going to be older deer. But I'm saying if your goal, if your property goal is to harvest deer at three and a half years or older.

‍

Chris (01:50:41.42)

I have this deer at five and a half. Right now I have this deer at five and a half, man.

‍

Chris (01:50:54.927)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Angelo (01:50:55.286)

You don't have to let a deer get to six and a half to say, we've got 120 class deer on this property. We've got 130 class deer on this property. You can go off of the average and say, when we harvest our three and a half year olds, they have this as their gross score on average. And we know that at three and a half, they're expressing 80 % of their potential on average, our deer, if they get to six and a half percent or six and a half years old would be

‍

in the 140 class or whatever and then that you could say my property produces 140 class deer. Technically it's true.

‍

Chris (01:51:31.982)

Yeah, and the truth and

‍

And the truth is, if you're, if you're truly managing properly, especially in a state like New York, where max you can shoot two bucks a year. If your management goal is three and a half, you are going to have four and a half slip through. If your management goal is four and a half, you're going to have five and a half slip through and so on and so forth. And the big debate right now is what is that management goal? Is it four and a half or five and a half? I live, I listened to enough management podcasts.

‍

know like there are probably equal people on both sides and I see both ends of it four and a half is one year sooner.

‍

Angelo (01:52:09.23)

I mean, it depends. Are you a trophy hunter? Because at four and a half years old, they're expressing 92 % of their potential. Do you know how many, do you know how much bigger a deer is going to be from 92 % of its expressed potential to 100 % of its expressed potential? A couple inches, maybe a little bit of mass. It's, that's really.

‍

Chris (01:52:15.671)

I think anyone who's managing their property, there's a...

‍

Chris (01:52:24.282)

You know, but here's the thing. depends on the potential. The higher the potential, the more 8 % matters. You know what I mean? yeah. So it's all good. I'm really excited to see what the future brings. This year has been a fucking struggle for me. We need to find me a deer because I'm hurting a little bit. You know, so yeah.

‍

Angelo (01:52:31.048)

yeah, of course, I mean...

‍

Angelo (01:52:35.022)

Yeah, exactly. My computer is about to die, so we need to wrap this.

‍

Angelo (01:52:49.486)

catch a deer yet?

‍

Chris (01:52:52.346)

Can't you hear yet? No, no, I have not. So guys, we wanna thank you so much for listening in. Hopefully you found some valuable information to take into the October low and hopefully make it not so much of a low. Angelo has brought some success again. He seems to be carrying this team this year. So he's got a new, no.

‍

Angelo (01:52:53.734)

You catch a deer yet?

‍

Angelo (01:53:16.014)

Try to stay trifecta, baby! We're getting there. By the way, Bear's opening in New Jersey starting today.

‍

Chris (01:53:18.104)

He's got a New Jersey trifecta right now. He needs to step out to the other states right now. You know, so as always guys, if you like.

‍

Yeah. Mitchell Mitchell. my goodness. What's his last name? shirk Mitchell shirt from the Pennsylvania woodsman. I think it's called, good luck this week. You and I have been talking. He's hunting Sussex right now, actually. So we're hoping to maybe get together with him for a hunt this year. stay tuned for that one. If you like what you heard today, if you found some value in what you heard, please take the time.

‍

30 seconds, leave us a review on Apple podcasts, leaving a five star written review and on Spotify podcasts, just a good old fashioned five star review will do. We wanna thank you so much for making it to the end of the episode. God bless, have a great week and until next time, remember success is just a commitment away. See ya.

‍

Angelo (01:54:15.406)

Peace.

‍