Finding Giant Bucks

On this episode of GOHUNT’s  Western Rookie Podcast, Brian talks with Bryan Heward about finding giant bucks, the importance of genetics, and hunting Antelope Island

The podcast revolves around mule deer hunting, specifically in Utah. The hosts discuss the challenges and joys of hunting mule deer, including the changing diet of the deer throughout the year and the impact of weather conditions on antler growth. They also touch on the decline of mule deer populations and the potential for natural selection to create a stronger, more adaptable breed of mule deer. The conversation highlights the importance of conservation efforts and the desire to provide future generations with the opportunity to hunt mule deer. 

In this conversation, Brian Krebs and Bryan Heward discuss their experiences tracking and hunting big bucks. They talk about the strategies they use to find specific bucks and the factors they consider when deciding which buck to target. They also discuss the management of deer herds on Antelope Island and the challenges they face in maintaining healthy populations. The conversation highlights the importance of genetics, habitat, and hunting practices in the success of deer populations. Overall, the conversation provides insights into the world of big buck hunting and the complexities of managing deer herds.
 

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Brian Krebs (00:02.064)

Welcome back to another Western Rookie Podcast episode brought to you by Go Hunt. Today I've got Brian Heward on the call all the way from Utah and we're just talking in the green room here for a second about some of the deer that you've got out in Utah. Some of the stuff we've got here in Minnesota and just kind of talking through summer stuff, summer scouting and glad to have you here today, Brian, to have a little podcast. thanks, Brian. I appreciate it, dude. It's been fun.

Yeah, dude, I'm excited for it. So, a little backstory for all of the listeners, but you are obviously in Utah, like I mentioned, and from what I can tell, love giant mule deer, like world -class meal deer, from what I've seen on social media and all your pages. You guys got some big bucks out there. We do, no we do. I've been pretty fortunate the last two years.

I was able to guide the mule deer hunts out on Animal Island. you know, all grown up, I'm right, I live here in West Haven, I grew up in South Augusta. All grown up, I've been watching those deer and never thought that I'd be able to get out there, actually guide those hunts and be a part of that hunt. But thanks to some very good friends and obviously my love for big mule deer, I got that opportunity the last couple of years.

It was pretty humbling, super fun. mean, there's nothing better than a giant mule deer. And we were lucky to have a couple of big bucks chasing out there. yeah. looks like you not only chase them in the fall, but it looks like you are an avid shed hunter. Is that the same ground that you're guiding in that you're finding antlers in the spring or do you kind of expand outward come shed season? No. So actually out there on Animal Island, they do a shed.

Like a draw, you gotta be drawn to go out on the shed hunt. Just like you do, you're getting drawn to go hunt a deer or whatever else. So it's a pretty exclusive list of people. They do about 100 people per year. I've gone out a few times on that shed hunt, but have not done so for probably four or five years. Most of my shed hunting actually happened in surrounding states. I really don't...

Brian Krebs (02:29.26)

don't chase horn much in the state of Utah, Nevada, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, and a little bit of Southern Utah as well. But no, I love taking up horn. We're blessed in Utah. We do have some amazing animals to chase. I can tell you that just like anything else, know, shetlings become very competitive, which is great. It doesn't bother me.

and Stokes, that's a dude picks up a big horn and, you know, it's, it's a lot of fun. I've got a couple of good buddies that, you know, I do most of my time on the mountain with, exclusively. we don't, we don't share many, you know, places. It's become pretty, pretty competitive and, but no, we get after it pretty hard and we enjoy doing it. Yeah. It's,

It's a fun time down there. So I'm from Minnesota, like I mentioned, and we did a shed hunt in like Northwestern New Mexico with some friends. It's crazy the difference in terrain. mean, like nothing is even remotely similar between like Northern Minnesota, the Dakotas and like Southern Colorado, New Mexico. And so everything was different. Crazy country. spent a little time down in the heat

in New Mexico as well as Arizona on the border to New Mexico. That's some rugged stuff. I feel like everything is trying to stab you. Every type of bush is trying to stab you. It's like lots of rock. It's super steep, but it's also home to some big animals. So we're going to go figure it out. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Lots of cactus. We don't have cactus in Minnesota at all. So you never have to worry about where to sit down.

out there, it's not quite the same. But back on the big mule deer. So we're kind of talking about the weather. you guys said it's really hot in Utah right now, and it's getting drier. So we're halfway through July as we record this. I think it'll be a couple of weeks before this episode airs. But by now, would assume if mule deers are anything like whitetails, they're starting to take on kind of their

Brian Krebs (04:52.864)

I wouldn't say they're done growing, but they're probably getting really close to the shape and the frame. Is that what you're seeing out there? Yeah, it kind of varies. Kind of deer to deer, honestly. There's some deer that are completely finished out, but then there's some deer that they will grow through mid -August. And I don't know if that's different biological perspective. If some deer, if people...

I theories that if they shed earlier, they'll be done growing earlier. I haven't quite seen that exactly. I've maybe seen a few instances of it, but I've also seen the opposite as well. You know, it's interesting. Our deer here in Northern Utah, they actually seem to finish out a little later than our deer down in Southern Utah. Not by a lot. But I was out this weekend helping my older brother scout.

an archery unit that he's got here, a tag for here and there was, I'll bet you, I don't know, 10%, maybe less of the bucks that are pretty close to done growing. And then the rest of them there, I would say they probably have a month left. it really does vary. It's kind of deer to deer. I don't know what you guys see, you know, out your way. I've never shot a whitetail in my life. I actually shot a whitetail doe in Missouri when I

Um, and Arkansas playing college baseball on a buddy's property and that's the only white tail hunting I've ever done. so yeah, mule deer, they're, they kind of vary. Our elk, on the other hand, they're basically done growing by now. Um, you know, your big bulls is taking shape and some are completely done growing. I actually saw that the statewide Arizona raffle tag for 23, 24, they actually killed their bull last week.

So it's weird, know, the elk seem to certainly finish quite a bit earlier than the deer. Some deer are done and I would say most of the deer. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of where we're at right now. Like deer, their bucks are starting to take shape. I'm starting to see bucks that we've got experience with that are, you know, I can tell who's who now, but some of them are still finishing out. Like they kind of just have their frame, you know, you can kind of see in, they four by fours? Are they going to be a five by five? And,

Brian Krebs (07:18.136)

By now I would assume, the big meal deer probably still have, you know, a fair, I mean, even if they're 90 % done or 80 % done, that still could be 20 to 40 inches of bone to put on. Absolutely. But it's still 160 inches, 180 inches of bone that you can judge them off of. And so you probably can tell who's who by now as well. For sure. Yeah, for sure. We had, it was interesting, our deer that we killed on the island last year.

we have trying to think like my best buddy Blake, we asked him to help me guide that hunt last year. And the year before, I actually was asked to help guide it by his father. anyway, Blake and I were out, looking for, a particular buck. And I don't know if he died that winter or what, but the deer that we actually originally, were set out to kill, he vanished on us and spirits were kind of low. And,

We ended up bumping a deer. knew this deer was in the area, but he was young and he was like, we figured he was like a 195 inch deer the year before. Um, but again, like a three year old, 195 inch deer. And, um, we ended up glassing him up and could believe what he turned into in one year. Um, you know, he went from, like I said, 195 inch deer.

one typical horn and on the other side he had like eight or nine points. And you know this last year when we killed him he was the 250, 260 inch deer and 42 inches wide and just a mega giant. So it was kind of hard like we thought it was him but until he kind of really started taking shape like you were saying it was like wow yeah I guess that is him.

having a deer put on 70 inches of growth in one year. Yeah, that is a lot. That's a huge, I mean, that's a giant jump up. Those are some pretty good genetics, I would imagine, and maybe a lot of good feed. So I've heard a rumor, and I think it would be really interesting because you guys have big enough bucks and probably old enough age classes where you get to track these deer from year to year, hopefully. Some people have said

Brian Krebs (09:45.516)

to me and I don't know if this makes sense that actually in years where there's a little bit of a drought, the deer can actually put on as much or more antler growth because all of the food has like a higher percentage of micronutrients in drought years. Like what they're eating, they're getting more of the micronutrients like the minerals, potassium, sodium. And in years where there's a ton of growth,

I think reading between the lines, I think they're basically saying it's actually just like more water weight. Like they're actually getting kind of watered down in their micronutrients. They're still getting the same amount of overall feed, right? Like the same amount of carbs. They're just not getting as much of the microbes. Do you see any of that with the deer you're tracking? Like, you see like, I don't know if antler girl is going to be good. It's kind of a dry year and then they just explode. You're like, well, turned out all right. Yeah.

The winter of 21, 22 out here in Utah was historical. mean, our top skewers had over 900 inches of skew. And, you know, obviously we killed that buck in the fall of 23. And so, you know, it, I don't know. I, I've heard, you know, especially hunting like that in like the Nevada desert, Southern Utah desert.

you know, Henry Mountain, Pontagon, you know, some of the bordering units on the Nevada, Utah side there. Yeah, sometimes, you know, and even on, you know, I guess what people would call a really good moisture year, doesn't seem like you just have an explosion of antler. And then on years where you don't really expect it, it seems like you can. Overall, I think that the more moisture, the better, but...

You know, I've heard from several other kind of mule deer nuts, but some of those desert deer, it's actually not the best thing for them when there's just a crazy amount of water. And that might be to, you know, due to the fact of what you're saying, that it's, you know, that kind of waters down the nutrients. I had kind of a personal theory on the buck that we killed out on the island this last year. The deer that we sold the tag.

Brian Krebs (12:10.144)

to Jimmy. Jimmy bought the tag for his giant framed, honestly, three point. But the year that we sold him the tag, was like, we figured the deer was like 215. mean, 28 inch beams, 35 plus wide, just like a frame like you couldn't believe with a couple of really nice extras, double eye guards. That deer obviously vanished. And so this younger deer,

that we call them M80 just because he absolutely exploded. know, he was, these deer out there, there's really not a ton of water. There's some natural springs. And then there's man -made guzzlers. And the year before when he was a three and a half year old deer, this older deer bullied him and ran in the exact same area as him. And really he was kind of forced to drink out of the guzzlers, kind of stagnant water.

But there's a tank down lower and it was piped through a natural, you know, natural spring pipe straight out of the rock. you know, yes, animal file and genetics are world renowned, some of the best. however, I think personally, have no evidence or data to show this, but I think that, you know, when he was able to move down on that spring and I didn't get him up on the guzzlers at all, I was able to watch and grow week by week, checking the camera.

I think that that has something to do with it. think that the higher mineral content of that water coming straight out of the rock has something to do with his, you know, big jump, 70 inch jump this year. That does make a lot of sense because you'll see in the whitetail world, obviously it's a way bigger topic, but like some states baiting or supplemental feed programs, but a lot of people

lot of landowners, myself included, are at least doing like mineral licks and salt licks where possible. And I think they're starting to see like that micronutrients in the supplemental feeding makes a huge difference, almost more so than the carbs and protein content that they're eating. so it definitely makes sense to me what you're saying

Brian Krebs (14:31.616)

Yeah, I, you know, I'm, actually headed to Sonora, in December to hunt a mule deer. and, know, it's interesting, you know, having these kinds of same conversations with my outfit or I'm going with down there. you know, Sonora had the worst drought that it's seen in a very long time. You know, the people that have been hunting Sonora for a long, time said that, you know, Amagroaf was just horrible down there. and you know,

outfitter. It's all low fence stuff, right? There's no high fence ranches that they have, but they do supplement their deer mineral as well as feed throughout the year. And, where other outfitters were killing, you know, a couple of deer over that 200 inch mark, you know, he was telling me he was still able to kill over 11 deer over that 200 inch mark. And he attributed that to just the supplement feeding that they're doing. you know, it's tough when, I mean, this guy lives here in Utah.

And, you he'll, he'll buzz down to Mexico every so often, but, you know, he's got his ranchers that'll put feed out for these deer. And, you know, it, there's all sorts of different studies, right? On, there's actually more studies coming out now than I've seen showing that actually the, the, you know, what they're eating in the winter actually has more correlation to, they going to have a big hammered girl's year or not? You know, if it's a super harsh winter and they get so...

emaciated and then they got to really work on putting muscle and or fat back on. mean, animal growth is always secondary, right? It's always going to be after the whole total health of the animal. Right. Yeah. And so if an animal comes out of the winter in a real rough shape, it can be really hard for them to just put on a big ear and put on a bunch of inches on top. Yeah. So we are very fortunate to grow up in a family that owned private land. And now I

My wife and I just bought our first farm as well, Whitetail Farm. And, you know, so I'm always thinking about like the deer and food and, you know, supplement feeding programs are expensive, especially like the more deer you have, the more you cost. all these things on how to do the best job. I have thought like in the West, especially like our moisture is typically more controlled here in the Midwest. And we have droughts just like everyone else,

Brian Krebs (16:59.138)

You know, for the most part, there's good summer feed. And then it's just about how much snow we get in the winter because none of our deer migrate. I have a feeling out west, the ideal situation would probably be like a lot of fall, like late summer fall rain and like a lot of fall growth and then like a lighter winter, especially for the mule deer and antelope. Where they're, like you said,

easy to survive through the winter. There was a lot of food on the ground going into winter and not a lot of snow. So they kind of exit the winter in a good spot. And then, you know, maybe just like a normal summer, like not necessarily drought, but not necessarily a ton of, you know, green grass where they can get a lot of micronutrients because they're eating, you know, the, the grass is more dense in micronutrients. And that would probably be like your ultimate.

kind of stack for a good antler growth years, just a really easy, easy fall and winter to bounce back from the rut. And then just a normal summer where they, where they're, you don't kind of have to go search and find better food sources that have higher energy, higher mineral content. For sure. No, I've always said that when God created mule deer, he hated them. I mean, you know, he has them rut in November.

that go into the start of the winter at their lowest body fat possible. so, um, you know, here in Northern Utah, mean, you know, with that big winter, um, two years ago, and we had a great winter this last, this last one, but man, two years ago, I, I do a little guiding up on a, a private ranch here in Northern Utah. And, um, we had, man, I think last I heard it was like 80%.

of our entire deer herd got wiped out. We had elk that were getting wiped out. And elk, takes a lot for elk to get wiped out. But the winter just, it just didn't end and it kept going. And we were getting snow all the way through April, you know, and just that green grass never had the chance to really push through. I mean, it was really hard to watch. I'd go up and glass for animals.

Brian Krebs (19:19.512)

when a bull is standing there and it's you know, ribs and antler and that's all he's really got. It's tough to watch. So yeah, we can, our winners here, I mean, know the Wyoming Mule Deer herd, know, last I saw their numbers went from like 60 ,000 to 10 ,000. You know, it's like in order for, and I know it's the same for Whitetail, but man, in order for a Mule Deer to truly reach trophy class.

I mean, the amount of stars that have to align are pretty incredible. I mean, going all the way back to, you know, they say that the fawns that are born the year after a big winter are bred, you know, by a very healthy doe, a very healthy buck, you know, with high fat content because they had all this, this, you know, feed to eat throughout the summer and fall. And so that mom is giving birth at a very healthy

body fat percentage. Anyways, just, I mean, the amount of stars that have to align and that's really, think what makes, you know, these trophy class animals just so rare and, you know, just such a joy to hunt and respect is it takes a lot for a deer to get big. Yeah. And it's, probably trickier, I mean, in the West with meal deer to, to help out, right? Well, first of all,

you know, a majority of mule deer are on public lands, which, know, there is no land or habitat managers, no land managers for those, doing anything like, like the, in comparison to the whitetail world, right? Where a majority of whitetails are on private land. And, and if you're whitetail hunter and you're a private land owner, typically you're doing something to try to help, right? Whether it's food plots, you're maybe leaving some of the farm acres standing in the winter time, mineral blocks, you name

You're trying to do something and people that have it kind of dialed in, maybe have a little bit more land and maybe they have a little bit more resources. They got a tractor and they're, you you're seeing people that are making a huge difference. I mean, I just listened to a podcast with Lee Likowski, who I don't know if you know, but Lee, but he's one of like one of the more well -known whitetail hunters in the country. And he's said, you know, once we he's been in Iowa, which is whitetail Mecca.

Brian Krebs (21:45.144)

And he said, when we first moved to Iowa for like the first 10 years, I shot one 200 inch buck and I knew of another 200 inch buck. And he's doing everything. He's planting soybeans and corn and big food plots, tons of clover, tons of food, you know, very selective on what he harvests, lets everything get to age, but they just were topping out, you know, at that, you know, 170, 180 range, which is a great buck, but you know, he's, he's got the resources, he's got the means he's trying to grow 200 inch bucks.

And then he said, when we switched to a supplemental feeding program on the farms and we're giving these, it, uses analogics and you know, the mineral content in the analogics, a big part of why he did it was EHD, you know, disease. said the, you know, the, the, have, a lot of essential oils. have a lot of, compounds in there to help with their immune systems. So they survive because EHD can wipe out an entire deer herd in a single

It's really bad. said since we started doing that we've had seven to 200 inches shot in the farm in the last seven years. Interesting. He's like it's he's like and so if anyone would know it'd be him. He spends his whole life growing and watching these deer and he's like I 100 % made a huge difference. I went from one in a decade to one a year overnight. Yeah. And he said it's because we started that and then they talked about like

it takes a couple generations, right? You need that, you know, how many did the, was the fawn born in a good year? Was the fawn's mother born in a good year? the, you know, kind of, it was the grandmother, is there three or four generations of deer that were born in great years building up bigger, healthier bodies over and over and over again, kind of like successional building of blocks upon the previous generation. And

And I was kind of torn because I'm like, I don't know, you know, food doesn't drive your genetics, right? Like if you're born a skinny dude and you just bust your tail in the gym and throw back a ton of chicken and steak and build 100 pounds of lean muscle, if you have your kid, the kid's going to get the skinny jeans. He's not going to get the muscle jeans. but I was talking to my wife, she's like, no, that's a huge, you know, we studied that in in med school. that is I think she said epigenetic changes.

Brian Krebs (24:06.934)

Like where you're basically where nature drives the genes to change throughout the generations. And maybe it's just faster because your generations are shorter than human generations. But yeah, I know it's made a lot of sense. Like how big of a difference that makes just having your fawns born. And if you can have like the fawns mother born in a healthy year, how much bigger that

Like you said, you see a lot of research on that. Fawns are being born with bigger pedicles or they're getting heavier antler mass at one year old. There's so many different statistics to look at to determine the health of the deer, but they're just basically all in the same direction. When you get healthy adult deer, you get healthier fawns. Yeah. It's interesting. You talk about circling back to supplementing in the winter. Mule deer

such a specific diet, right? And it changes throughout the year. mean, know, our mule deer here, most of them will move up into the high country and, you know, be eating a lot of forbs and flowers and whatever else. So then come winter when they're forced out of those areas and down into, you know, sage flats and their diet becomes primarily sagebrush, which has very low, you know, nutrients. People actually

You know, it's, it's, think the word's definitely getting around much better now. but you know, people will, your average person will see a deer coming off, you know, off the hill and into, you know, the cities in the winter and, know, they'll go feed it hay, right? Cause I think that's what, that's what a deer needs to eat. And what will actually happen is that deer will die with a full belly. it'll actually blow from overeating hay because it's digestive system is so used to.

you know, very low nutrients and things that it, that it, it, it, I think they literally die with a full stomach. Yeah. People are actually doing more harm than good. You know, our DNR, they, they developed a pellet that, you know, like for example, two years ago in that bad winter, there was certain areas specifically here in northern Utah, started feeding the yogurt to try to keep them alive. And I don't know, I, I'm kind

Brian Krebs (26:30.028)

split on it, honestly, I obviously never want to see a deer wasted. At the same time, I've even seen some data showing that when humans step in, for example, DNR, start putting out pellets that it can be harder on the deer. And again, the deer will die at full stomach, but overall it does help the deer. But yeah, the winters are just tough.

It's hard to kind of know what to believe when you got data kind of going on both sides. but I mean, no, it's the nutrients. think the most interesting thing for me is just how much a deer's diet changes throughout the year. Yeah. and I mean, you you think about humans, mean, we, though, our diet doesn't necessarily change and. Yeah. You try to put yourself in that perspective

I mean, it makes sense, You go from eating all this nutrient food to this very low nutrient food and your stomach would freak out as well. Well, I can tell you what, when I go on a hunt out west and I eat my normal diet all year long and then you switch to mountain house for seven days, my stomach doesn't like that. My stomach doesn't... it I'm sure it doesn't. It doesn't do good with that super high sodium.

shot and then probably really dehydrated on top of that. so yeah, you got to be kind of careful. So I get it for sure. Do you find like, is it common for any of like the private ranches that have outfitting? they doing anything to kind of help with the mule deer? Whether it's wintering, salt, mineral, protein blocks, is it common and even on the, and maybe the private land operations to be doing anything or

Do most people you see just kind of say, you know, it's mother nature, we're going to let it take its course and we're going to hunt whatever's there. Yeah. I mean, can speak just for my own personal experience on the private ranch that I've guided on. You know, the DNR, so this private ranch is actually what's called a cooperative wildlife management unit where, you know, the ranch owner allows the public hunter to put

Brian Krebs (28:51.336)

on that ranch and be able to have the ability to draw a tag and go hunt on that private land in exchange, you know, the state will allocate tags to the landowner that they can then turn around and either, you know, fill themselves or sell. Which is a great, know, CTO Mute programs are great and they've done a lot here in the state of Utah, just working hand in hand with the DNR. That being said,

Yeah, I mean there's a little bit of mineral that gets put out. You know, in the winters come around, they were feeding a little bit as well. But again, you know, the seeded a new operator up there, he kind of feels the same way I do that I'm not really sure what it actually helps out. And yeah, you know, they kind of started feeding a little too late anyways, and too many deer were gone. You know, a lot

And that was the other thing too, the fawn recruitment for that really bad winter. mean, does those will abort the fawns and more likely than not the doe will die as well. They just can't sustain the fawn with that, you know, when their body gets that emaciated and that low on fat reserves as well. So. Yeah, it's just really awful to, you know, just seeing the winter that we had, not this last one, but the winter before the, you know, 900 inches of snow and the mortality.

And I've been talking to a bunch of people on the podcast about it. And I really am wondering with everything that you're seeing in the Mule Deer, I don't know. I want to say Mule Deer community, but it seems kind of funny to call it that. But Mule Deer across the West, they've had a rough roll of the dice for a while now, right? With urban expansion, with not knowing

the importance of migration corridors before we built all of our railroads and interstates and communities. And then we get hit with droughts and then winters and Miele deer numbers are down. mean, they're all across the West. There's pockets that are doing fine or maybe even approving, but by and large, Miele deer are down. And I'm wondering, obviously everyone understands the strong survive, right? And it's the weak.

Brian Krebs (31:13.75)

The weakest, they die from the bottom up in these hard winters. And I'm wondering if like mother nature isn't realizing that in some weird twisted way, you know, the way mule deer used to live a hundred years ago is gone. I mean, it's not going to come back. We can do a lot to try to save migration corridors, but when we already cut them in half, you know, those deer, the fawns didn't learn it. So they're not going to go find it on their own again. They're going to do something else.

And all the deer that survived the droughts, maybe there's something that are, if they're a heartier strain of mule deer. And I'm wondering, maybe optimistically, does that eventually lead to kind of a newer version of a mule deer that's just better suited to live in today's world? Maybe a mule deer that found different wintering ranges that they didn't have to cross the interstate for. And not that better or worse, they just found a different place to go winter and survive.

You the mule deer survived that were more drought tolerant or maybe mule deer that survived are more winter tolerant. And we're going to get a stronger mule deer out of it that will bounce back. That's kind of my That'd be great. Yeah, no, I'm with you. That'd be awesome. I, it's been tough. mean, I'm 31 years old. know, deer hunting in general has changed entirely just since I started hunting deer.

And, know, overall tags, allocations, um, you know, I guess really just the, the, um, the amount of deer on the landscape. mean, you look at, mean, they've got the data, right? Take a look at the data and, you know, it's, it's startling to look at, it makes me worry to look at, you know, the deer numbers and where they're at now compared to where they were even 10 years ago. Right. Um, I've got two daughters myself

And I worry what kind of hunting experiences I'll be able to offer them when they're old enough to be able to hunt. You know, it's tough to draw a tag, one, which is great. I'm fine with it, right? I wish it was honestly a little tougher. think they were giving away way too many deer tags here in the state of Utah. I would much rather go several years without a tag, draw a tag, have a good experience and go hunt.

Brian Krebs (33:39.872)

Unfortunately, the general public does not and I get chastised for that for saying I'm a trophy hunter, right? And the majority of hunters here in Utah are opportunity hunters and just want to tag in their pocket every year. Jumping aside by side and go whack the first two point I see. But no, it's, I think there's certainly some validity to you saying, I mean, evolution has been happening for as long

you know, organisms have been alive and I mean, yes, the strong do survive. However, with the current rate that I see our meal there heard it's going. I mean, human encroachment and winters and, and, like you said, destroying, you know, certain migration corridors. I mean, the meal there cannot win right now. And it's, it's a lot of doom and gloom. Don't get me wrong. There's still big deer getting killed every year.

But when you start really taking a look at it, know, a lot of those big deer are getting killed on governor's tags, mean, Hope Island, you know, these tags are selling for half a million dollars. And, you know, the, I guess, like I kind of stated earlier, it really makes you respect a mule deer specifically on public land. They can get to that prime age with the right genetics and the right circumstances to.

to grow into the true trophy potential deer. I mean, it takes a lot. Yeah. And it takes, think even, you know, to build on top of that, to do it on public is one thing, but then you do it. And for a hunter to find a deer like that on a general unit in whatever state it is, you know, I know Utah doesn't have a ton of general units, but like a Colorado access tag or a Montana general or a Wyoming general, it's tough.

Right? mean, it's I've done a bunch of mule deer hunts. I've done them in North Dakota. actually saw the most big bucks I've ever seen in North Dakota. I just had an elk tag that I was focusing on instead of a mule deer tag. What do you chase mule deer things for? Well, because there's some giant elk. mean, they were big, big elk in North Dakota. It's a little secret because no one, no out of stater can get it. It's only in state when I lived there.

Brian Krebs (36:04.172)

But a lot of the mule deer hunts that I go on, the general unit hunts, you don't see a lot of bucks. Every hunt that I've gone on, it was shoot the first buck you see, or first legal buck you see, or you're not going to shoot one. And one hunt I passed, the first hunt I did shoot that yearling. My first mule deer was a one and a half year old buck.

And you know, I shot it and I've shot some nice white tails. was like, I don't know. Like it was a rough hunt, but I still wish I don't know if I made the right choice. Happy to, I'm happy to get it, you know, happy to have the meat. But looking back on it, I was like, I don't know if I'd do that again. And then the, you know, next meal of their hunt comes along and I'm like, you know, there's that same year and a half old buck. First buck I've seen after three days of hunting, you know, a hundred yards. And I'm like, I'm just, nope, can't do it. I'm, I I'm happy to eat my tag for

You know, and then the next day I found a three and a half year old buck, but that one I only saw two did the same thing a year after that only saw one buck. Fortunate was a three and a half year old buck, which still has no trophy record book buck by any means. but you know, I'm waiting for that mule deer hunt where I can look at a lot of bucks. I'm waiting for that mule deer hunt. that's more like an antelope hunt where you, you know, you see it, you go ask a lot of them and then you pick like, yep, that one is the one we're going

Yeah, haven't had that experience yet with the Mildir. It's been a tough go of

No, I definitely feel bad. I grew up hunting a private ranch just outside of Edmston, Wyoming. And I killed seven, eight deer on that ranch. The best buck being a mid 160 type deer, which is a nice deer, but I never saw that 170 plus type deer with a tag in my own pocket. Guided hunts, it was killed great deer and whatever else.

Brian Krebs (38:05.272)

Four years ago now, I burned 15 points in Colorado. And actually the year before, went out during the rut, the season days, there was a third season tag and took my wife with me and we went and scouted the unit to see if it was really the unit I wanted to burn those points on. And saw a couple of really nice deer. I mean, one buck that was, you know, mid eighties, couple of kickers, gorgeous frame, just like kind of classic Colorado look.

decided to pull the trigger, went out opening day. you know, it's a migration hunt, know, deer are moving out of high country and, and, know, you, if you see a buck and you pass it, you better really want to pass it. Cause the next day he's probably not going to be there. Yeah. and you know, I ended up opening morning, glossed up two bucks fighting and the one buck was a gorgeous deer. it's just

probably like low 80s, typical dark horned heavy and made a mad dash after him. Ended up slipping away from me. We ran back, jumped in the truck, skirted back up to the main road. He ran across the main road. And as I'm turning out of the main road, I see this black Chevy and doors just go flying open. And I'm just like, oh, he's giving me a break. And to the kid's credit, he jumped out, shot this deer on the run at like 300 yards and dumped him.

And, you know, I kind of thought like, well, there was my chance, you there was my chance for, I mean, I consider 180 inch deer to be a really nice meal deer. Oh yeah. And, know, congratulated the dude and, you know, obviously I kind of kicking myself or my plan not working out and he's apologizing and I'm like, hey, like what, you don't apologize. You just crushed a big deer. That's awesome. Like I'm stoked for you. And he's like, well, you know, I lived just down here in town.

I only had one day to hunt and you know, for a resident, only took like three points to draw the tag. And the kid's like, I know of another nice buck, you know, kind of show them to you. I'm like, yeah, that'd be great. Ends up showing me this deer and kind of gives a general location where the deer is located. Gorgeous frame. Two kickers off of his left side. One had actually broken. And then a kicker coming into his frame off of his right back fork.

Brian Krebs (40:29.398)

you know, mid to high eighties type deer. The deer the kid really wanted to kill, but again, he had one day. And so anyway, we go over there that night and we're looking and I send one of my buddies, Bennett, down into a spot and we kind of go to a different spot and we're getting different angles on this big basin. And Bennett gets a really grainy video like last night. We go back, we're analyzing it and he's like, yeah, that was a nice buck. And I get looking like, dude, that's him.

that's a buck and he's pushing like seven or eight does go back the next morning. the buck luckily didn't move that night and was still rutting his toes. And I, you know, you talk about just never seen or really, you know, like when you have a tag in your pocket, it's one thing if you're just out looking or if you're, know, guiding their home, but when it's your tag, like I personally up until that moment had never seen.

or had an opportunity at the buck that I've always wanted. And I was 27 years old. I'd been killing the older for 15 years and you know, to kill that buck and had my seven week old daughter with me and my wife and my parents and Blake and Bennett, my two best buddies. So it was just, yeah, it's special. You know, it's way special. Yeah, that's a, that is a, that's an experience, man. It's hard. Yeah. It's hard to find those big bucks.

And that's what I was going to, I wanted to ask you because obviously you've, you've tracked down a lot of them, whether they're for yourself or for clients. I mean, it's your job, right? And so what do you do, when you're trying to, you know, find, are you typically trying to find a specific buck that you know of? you're like, Hey, you know, I've been seeing this buck for the last three, four years. I think he's like six, seven years old now. He's at,

probably as big as he's gonna get. He was really special last year. This year I think he's something I wanna go after. Or do you kinda go like, hey, I'm just gonna find whatever's the best buck or the biggest buck in my area, the area I know, and that's the one we go after. You know what I mean? Is there a number or a specific one you target? are you just like, sometimes you gotta deal with the cards you dealt and I'm gonna pick the best hand I've been dealt? Yeah, no, mean, it's all circumstantial.

Brian Krebs (42:55.914)

a public land general tag. I'm looking for a four year old or better, right? That's that to me is mature, has a mature mule deer. And, you know, I will happily, you know, shoot a big two by two, two by three that I know is four and half, five and a half, six and a half years old, over the hundred and fifty inch three year old four point. But, know, then switching to where I do some guiding here in northern Utah.

You know, we, hunt those deer in November with a rifle and you know, lot of those deer are moving through migrating through as we're starting to, you know, winter starting to turn on. I mean, we certainly keep track of deer and you know, my, my outfit up there is named spread bait. He does a really good job of, of running that outfit. And, you know, he says, look, we kill five year old or older. Like we, don't care if there's a hundred and ninety two hundred inch four year old.

And that's a lot that says a lot. You know, we, had a 205 inch four year old and we all agree that he was poor. And, know, our, that private land borders public and you know, Brett flat out said, we're not shooting that deer. And he jumped the fence and he got whacked on the public. And that was, you know, still for the public hunter, that was, it's tough when you watch, you know, Brett, especially, right? He raised that buck and it's tough to watch a deer like that get whacked.

But yeah, mean, it's, you know, it's all circumstantial. For example, at Orlando Byland, you know, there's one tag sold a year and one tag drawn a year. And in general, you talk about deer not doing good, those deer are doing horrible. A lot of people, you know, they see the highlight reel, right? They see the, you know, 42 inch wide, I don't even remember how many points they had, I think like 19 points, know, buck that we shot.

And they're like, wow, that's, you know, that place is just cranking them out. And it's really not, um, that, you know, that Island is, guess, just, come out and just say how it is. The Island is very mismanaged. Um, the deer herd, I it's a 14 mile square Island. Yeah. And that deer herd is I think less than 75 animals. Um, you know, there's at one point.

Brian Krebs (45:21.304)

Gosh, I guess it'd be about eight years ago. said the deer food was at 800. Um, know, they had a fire out there. then transplanted, you know, they used that island kind of as a nursery. You know, they'll transplant, um, those genetics. They transplant down the Oak Creek unit, they transplant down the Elk Ridge unit. And for the last four or five years, not to say those units weren't good before, but island genetics are very particular and it's really easy to look at a buck and go that deer came from the island.

been interesting to watch some of these deer pop up on the Elk Ridge, some of these deer pop up on the Elk Ridge unit. And it's just like, oh yeah, that's 100 % island genetics. But yeah, they transplanted, they took too many does off, they took 400 does and fawns, half the herd. You know, they've got bison out there and you know, bison, they take up a lot of resources. And last year I figured there was about 8 to 900 out on that island.

You know, they, after the fire in 2017, they didn't do any receding to my knowledge. Um, they do very little work on the springs. And, you know, the unfortunate part is that tag is sold at auction at the Utah honey expo every year. Um, this year I had a few people that were interested and I just told them don't, like there's, there's not going to be the deer you're looking for. Um, that pops up this year out there. It just is what it is. There's a couple of, you know, decent.

three, four year old, but I think have potential to do it in a couple of years, but I wouldn't spend the $350 ,000. It's going to take to get that tag. So it's again, it's all circumstantial because the deer we killed this year, that Jimmy shot the next best year that I ended up guiding the state draw hunter on that there was mid to high one 90s.

There was nothing in between. was no two 10 bucks, no two 20 bucks. was nothing in between. that, uh, you know, when you sell it, when you, you're guiding a half a million dollar deer tag, that takes over 500 ,000 and you know, you, you've got one buck that is, you know, in that really world class, you kill it, right? You kill it, you kill big meal, they're on their big and you know, it's, it's just tough

Brian Krebs (47:47.538)

that's a tough call where we didn't know if he would survive the winter. didn't know if he would get killed in the rut. We didn't know all these other things. You know, there's not a lot of does and there's more bucks on that island and they, they rut hard. They kill each other. They'll snap horn and whatever else. And we ended up killing that deer and we knew he was going to be right there four and a half, maybe five and a half, but the tooth age came back at four and a half years

Yeah, that's tough. With the island, like right now, forgive me if I'm wrong, right now it's not a true island, right? No, it is. It's an island. It's out in the Great South Lake. However, the drought we've experienced here in Utah for the last 10, 15 years, most of the water on the eastern side of the lake has receded. And it really receded basically down to just a channel out there.

The last two winters have brought those levels back up. so it's an island now again. It is. Yeah, it is. And it's interesting. There's a man -made causeway that's built out to it. The island road, is that what you're talking about? Correct. Yeah. OK. Yeah. So that comes out of Syracuse and will take you out to the island. it's, mean, deer migrate across it. In fact, the deer

that my state hunter killed, the kid that drew the tag. you know, he's gorgeous deer. I didn't think he was on island anymore because I actually saw a picture of him in Syracuse in town. walked across the, I don't know, it was probably only five, six miles of road, but walked the road into town and was rutting does in a cornfield. And so I didn't think he was an option and we got out there and we glass him up.

That's the best part here. We got to kill it. So. Well, that's interesting. That's what I going to ask when the water was down, because the channel on the northeast side, you know, that was always water. But there wasn't there. There's like a big was it a salt flat? Yeah, for a while. And I was going to ask, like, did the deer ever migrate back to the mainland or did they like is it kind of one of these things where it's like they're like throw up like you don't leave the island?

Brian Krebs (50:11.272)

Right. Yeah, no, they do. It's funny. mean, you know, there's so that from the island and then across the salt flat, once you start hitting mainland on the southeast side, you run into the basically the Salt Lake Airport. Right. And there was, I there's seen a couple of different pictures. I haven't seen it myself, but there's some private land there before the airport and people have taken pictures of bison out there that have wandered off the island. you know, antelope and there's historically been antelope there in the past,

Yeah, I, when they used to do a, when they had got some deer that were collared out on the island and watching the winter patterns of some of those bucks and does, they would, they would leave the island for the winter. and they would go, you know, south, they would, you know, go east into Syracuse. yeah, they, you know, people think, it's an island, you know, if the deer is there, the deer is going to be there. Like, yes, that's true, but the deer can leave and they do, you know, there's deer

pop up in Syracuse every so often and yeah, you'll be a really big buck wandering around in city limits and people's cornfields and whatever else. Every, I don't know, I think it's probably been about 10 years since I've heard of the last really big buck getting killed over in the cornfields. But there's been like 220 type blocks that get killed in the cornfield. Wow. That's crazy. It's crazy to think of 14 square miles.

It's a lot for a whitetail hunter, but it's not much for a, you know, a Western hunter. No, no, it's not. And it seems like it's crazy that it's crazy that to me that the genetics are strong. I feel like if you had like an isolated population, kind of like that, you'd, I'd almost expect that the genetics to go the other direction over time. You, yeah. I mean, you would think, I mean, I, I, again, I think

the mineral content out there has something to do with, you know, these big deer. I mean, originally those deer were transplanted out of Cache County, which is just here in Northern Utah. And something's wrong. There's been some giant deer historically killed in Cache County. And, know, obviously on the island, they get to grow to six, seven, eight, nine. You know, the deer we killed two years ago was 10 and a half years old. He was right there at that 240 mark.

Brian Krebs (52:38.38)

But no, I agree. always joke that, you know, we're behind the bunch of inbreds. Yeah. Yeah. Really they are. mean, they're, you've got a very select amount of deer out there now. And you would think that you'd start seeing some disease or some issues, to form. mean, the best thing they could do for that herd is one wipe out half the buffalo.

two, they, they need to really do some, some reseeding and some planting of different forms and whatever else that the deer need. And three, they do need some new blood. you know, they, they need to transplant some, I mean, we've got, you know, does that water down into, know, in the, in the, bountiful city limits, which is encroached way up the hill and is built on, you know, historic wintering range.

I mean, there's people that are contracted to the DNR, but you know, with bows to go into the neighborhoods and kill a certain amount of does. And I wish we'd see some more transplanting being done on the island. don't think that the majority of the public really understands how poor the deer are doing out there. but yeah, it's, if something's not done, within the next couple of years, that island herd is those genetics are going to die out. Yeah.

Hopefully they're able to move some deer around and hopefully get a few different genetic strains. I'm talking Arizona and Idaho and different, really cast a wide net and bring some in. Because yeah, seems like that would be a risk anyway. Unless those deer are just that good at like, I know the does typically will run off.

the yearling bucks to make sure they don't stick around into that deal group. So maybe they're just really good at figuring out who's who and keeping the family picnics separated. don't know. But yeah, it does seem like that would be the thing. But clearly, clearly it doesn't work that way because they're giant. Yeah. Well, it was really exciting. Well, first it was really tragic. So they had California big ones out there and believe it was a respiratory disease.

Brian Krebs (55:03.67)

And they went through and they wiped them all out. killed them. then Kuyu, within the last four years, has come through and donated a bunch of time and money with some other members as well. I believe SFW, sponsored it was a part of it here in the state of Utah. Don't quote me on that. not positive, you know, they, they brought sheep out of the breaks out of Montana.

And they also brought, which historically some of the best rocky genetics in the world. And they also brought sheep out of, believe it was New Mexico. And, you know, it was pretty cool to be running around scouting and running cameras and wherever else and to be bumping these, you know, I mean, there's a couple rams that they, they collared every ram that they, and ear tagged all the, all the ewes that they put on the island initially. And there were a couple rams that.

You know, we, we had on our trail cameras that we saw with our own eyes that we know were four or five years old because they weren't collared and they weren't ear tagged. And these are 168 grams. Oh wow. So it's, that's pretty exciting. Right. You do have that going on on the Island. And, um, I mean, it's yes, it's an Island. Um, it's a pretty nasty country up high. I mean, it's true sheep country, very rocky, very rugged, very steep.

And I'm pretty excited to see what those those genetics, those rocky genetics can do out there. There's going to be some big sheep killed in the next couple of years. Have they started a hunting season for the sheep or is it still like growing the population mode? They have not. No, they have not yet. Last I heard they were thinking about opening up, you know, a state hunt. a drawn tag and then an auction tag as well in the next two or three

Um, you know, there's a couple rams that were transplanted that, I I know that the one ram he's, he's got awesome genetics. He's probably, um, the last time I saw him, I'll bet you he's 170 inch type ram, maybe a little better. I'm not the best with sheep, but I know a big one when I see it. Um, and you know, I, I firmly believe that when they start opening up that sheep hunt, you know, those, that sheep tag is going to get sold for.

Brian Krebs (57:29.73)

close to a million dollars every year. That's crazy. are the Antelope Island tags auctioned off the same as the rest of the Utah Governor tags? Yeah, and it kind of varies. Most of your big tags are sold at the Utah Hunt Expo. Right. And then you have some other banquets throughout the spring or whatever else

They'll get their hands on a few of the better tags as well to the auction. but yeah, I mean, you know, it was, it was wild. Arizona statewide deer tag, I think it was two years ago, sold for three quarters of a million dollars. Yeah. and just, just bonkers. always, I always joke with elk people, but you know, I guide elk comes as well and I love to hunt out, but I'm definitely a deer guy. And you know, the joke was, man, I don't see any elk tags getting sold

half a million, three quarters of a million dollars. But That is weird to me, I think. I mean, I don't know. I would, if I was a billionaire, I'd spend more on an elk tag than a deer tag. But maybe that's because in some twisted way, like there's more giant elk than there are giant mule deer. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. You know, we buddies and whatever else, have these kind of conversations, right? It's

If you have a 400 inch bowl and a 200 inch deer standing next to each other, which one do you shoot? Yeah, I don't want to shoot, Yeah, yeah. I, you know, I've seen one bowl with my own eyes guiding for Ryan Carter in Southern Utah that was right around that 400 inch mark. Was that MJ?

No, no, I actually didn't. I have only been guiding for Ryan for a couple of years now. I've been running around down there for a couple of years before that. Oh, okay. But no, I was not with Ryan when they killed MJ. This bull was a bull that actually got killed by, I believe it was a Times Up crew. But I they teamed up with the Alpha boys. He was like 395, 396, I think is what he went. But, you know,

Brian Krebs (59:48.248)

But yeah, I the 400 inch bowl. people don't realize what it takes for a bowl to truly get to 400 inches. I mean, your average guy will see a 350, 360 bowl and call it 380, 390. I mean, it just takes so much bone to get a bowl to 400 and to get a deer to 200. Yeah. And it's funny you bring that up, and especially with Ryan. So when I had that North Dakota tag, I found a bowl that

He was a seven by eight and he wasn't, wouldn't say spectacular at anything, but he was great at everything. Right. Yeah. And so, and I'm looking at this bull and I'm listening to Ryan Carter podcast. mean, I'm searching Spotify. I'm researching his name and I'm listening to anything he's ever been on trying to learn how to hunt big bulls. Cause I had this once in a lifetime tag and so I'm learning how to, and how

Judge them and score them and I'm trying to pull out every trick in the book, right? Like it's you know 16 inches from their from their antler to their nose So if they go all their fronts go all the way down and curl up like that's what it takes to get a 20 inch Front and you know all the tricks right? Yeah, and I am I get this bull that I found and I tracked him down figured out where he was Got him on film. I filmed him myself twice in a single day and I took the film and I'm

I had this up to like almost 400. Okay. But I've never done this before. Right. I mean, it's like, it's like, if I showed you a picture of a whitetail buck and gave you like three seconds, then it'd be like, how big it was? And you're like, I don't know. 160. I've done, I don't score whitetails. Right. And so I'm like, and I, so I reached out to Ryan because I knew him and I sent him the video right out of the gate and I'm like, Hey, this is a North Dakota bowl. I've got a once in a lifetime tag.

Am I blind? Like I'm adding this up. I I do it this way. I do it that way. I get like 390 every time. Like is this bull true? And this is velvet still. OK, and I'm like, is this really that big? And first of all, I didn't even expect him to respond. I know he's a busy dude. He responded in like three minutes with a voice memo. And I'm like, oh crap, I wasn't expecting to respond, much less him talking like directly to me. He's like, hey, I'm sorry I'm driving right now, but that bull is a freak.

Brian Krebs (01:02:11.736)

Like I don't know if he's, you know, I added them up to high three eighties to high three nineties, but you never know. You're the only way to know is to shoot them. And, and I'm like, I was like, Oh crap. I was like super jacked. And he's like, whatever you do, stay on that pole. And I tried, I spent like 10 more days trying to find them. Never found them again. Yeah. He disappeared. Season opened up. Bow hunters got

white deer hunter, archery deer hunters got in there a week before me. Typically in North Dakota, the elk opens the same day as the archery deer. But the elk hunting is any weapon, right? This year it opened up a week later for some stupid reason. So there's bow hunters running around where he was in and I'm like, every time a truck would pull up, my heart would drop further.

And sure enough, he vanished. so I went somewhere else. Ironically, I went the same direction he went. I shot a different bull. I shot a 354. And then I went to Montana on our group elk hunt and somebody reached out and said, Hey, I think my dad shot the bull you were chasing. Cause I posted video of them. I'm like, you know, it's a, there's only 30 of us in this unit and most of them are landowners that have to hunt their ranch. Um, and so my, and the guy that shot him was a landowner shot him on his own ranch.

And he said it only went 360. So I have no idea what happened. don't know. like, there's no way, you know, I don't, I I don't really believe Ryan would have been off by 40 inches. No, I don't either. I, uh, know, especially Ryan, Ryan's one of the best these that I know personally. Um, he's just a good person, but he's an absolute. That's what I thought. And I'm like, are you talking like net? I could see him going 360 net.

But yeah, I'll send you video. I'll send you the picture of the guy on the bowl on the ground that the guy sent me. I'm like, yep, that's him. And I didn't care. You know, I can never hunt it again. And I shot my bowl. You know, I shot a bowl. It was actually my first elk. who's going to pass a 355 bull on their first elk for the hopes that they find this magic, you know, 390 that's disappeared over, you know, a month ago. And Ryan is very conservative. I mean, you know, he, as

Brian Krebs (01:04:34.84)

can cut us and these guys like just don't ever over score a bowl like always. Yeah, don't tell a client it's 410 and it comes in at 390. No, I don't think this bowl like this was not going to go 420. I don't think like he like I said, he wasn't magical at anything. He was just solid like his fifth, sixth, seventh and eighths were not eighths, but you know, fourths, fifths, sixths and sevenths were all 15, 16, 17 inches.

I mean, I'll show you, it was crazy. And maybe that was off too, because when I saw my bull, I thought he had 10 inch fifths and I was off by about 10 inches. Yeah. And I, know, still to say, I can't score an elk like a can of deer. I can get a deer within a couple inches most of the time. And I can get an elk within 15, right? it's, know, elk are just a little tougher in my personal experience.

And I think it's because the dimensions are, the body size for sure, like this one would scratch his own butt with his antlers. And you know, my bowl had 58 inch beams, but I think body size plays a huge role into it. just every dimension is, it's like, it's harder to gauge what 50 inches apart looks like when, than 12, like a white tail. It's like their eyes are five inches apart on the money. So when they're looking at you, it's like if the brow tines are as tall as their eyes are apart, it's five inches.

You know, their noses are all eight inches long, like seven and a half to eight dialed in. So it's like you get really good measure. I know. You don't really get any good references and the references you do have changed in size between a two year old bull and a 10 year old bull. For sure. Yeah. it's, you know, it's interesting that Ryan has taught me. mean, growing up, I grew up a deer hunter, right? Like my dad, he used to guide down the San Juan. Like I grew up around Big Bull and I don't know if maybe that's just

kind of what made me into more of a mule deer guy is I always kind of grew up like my dad was, you know, he's crushing really nice bulls down there on the San Juan in the early 2000s and you know, couple scratching for like 390 and lots of, know, 370, 380 kind of bulls. And, you know, it's been interesting to, you know, be friends with Ryan. You know, Ryan, he's got stories

Brian Krebs (01:06:58.68)

You know, they had one camp back in the early to mid 2000s that, you they had like four bulls over 400 that were dead in camp in one camp one year. know, so it's like, you put that in perspective. I mean, for, and we've killed some great bulls over the last couple of years. know, we, Ryan's hunter last year, rifle hunter, very last morning, he crushed a bull that was like right there, 390.

like six with like one little tiny like two inches of extra and just dream bowl. Right. And, I mean, I disrespect him so much, Ryan. was just like another day in the office. It was just like, you know, it's just another big bowl. And for me, it's like, my gosh, like I've never stood over a bowl and this big dead on the ground. And I mean, you talk about genetics, that bowl was a young bowl, like, you know, six.

Oh my gosh. because I know he talks a lot of the ones he finds a die of old age. Right. Right. And that, know, I kind of got attracted to the perspective I was going off of with, you know, these bulls Ryan has shown me. I he's got really archives of elk and, know, he'll show me a bull from seven years old to 14. And, you know, this bull will be relatively the same, you know, from seven

sometimes 10, 11, and then at 12, for no reason, his bull will jump another 15, 20 inches. Whereas deer, I see personally, I see mule deer, you know, like that deer we killed three years ago on the island, he was 10 and a half years old. That was a lab aged tooth and that was his best animal growth year. But most deer I see, the older they get, they start, you know, getting compact, getting more mass, throwing a few more extras.

will lose a bunch of their score because they lose a lot of their typical frame. Yeah. Yeah. You see him decline too. I know what you're talking about. We had Ryan on the podcast here after, know, because I met him before the podcast through that, you know, social media exchange. And he was telling me the stories of all the bulls. Cause I listened, you know, it's kind of weird. You listen to someone talk enough, let you feel like you know them and you've never met them. Sure. And I was like, I know about all the bulls he used to chase and he was talking on the podcast. This was

Brian Krebs (01:09:23.892)

a year ago or two years ago. It's probably right when you're coming on board. And, you know, for him, was another day in the office, but he's like, I'm kind of sad. Like all of my bulls are dead. Yeah. All of the ones I like, like MJ is dead. Chunky monkey's dead. Like all these guys are dead. And it's like, we're kind of in this weird spot where I don't have a lot of up and comers. he's got, he's like, he sounded a little depressed about it. And I'm

man, like don't give up. Like don't quit. like hearing the stories. You know what I mean? Yeah. And yeah, like to him, it's just another day. Yeah. There's some exciting bulls. I think it was more just the bulls like you said, he was tracking for seven years. And it's like, you know, it's like when you, when you, you know, like your favorite, your favorite coworker leaves, it's like, yeah, there's other coworkers,

Sure. You your friends, your friend left or you know what I mean? Like he just said, he had to build a story with new bowls, right? It's like, you know, it's like the coach that, you know, his dream team graduates and now he's got to build a new team. and it's going to win again, but yeah, it was just kind of funny hearing them talk about, like you said, all the bowls through all the years. And one of the things that I was, I've always been curious about when you say they throw those crazy jumps at the end, I'm wondering if it's like that bowl was a herd bowl.

from seven to 10, 11. And he was fighting off everyone. And then one day he's like, this ain't worth it anymore. I'm retiring. And he just eats all year long. And then he throws monster antlers at 12 years old. Oh man. No, yeah. We had the acorns last year down there in Southern Utah in the desert were crazy. Ryan said that they were like the acorn growth from something he'd never seen before. And there was one particular bull that

don't know if it was Bennett that filmed him or Ryan or maybe Aaron, but one of the boys filmed him and the bull that, you know, they know well and this bull had basically just came out of the velvet, you know, probably highest fat content of the year. But it almost looked like it hurt for him to walk that he was so overweight. And, you know, like he, you could tell like, you know, they sent a bow hunter and I wasn't down there for the bow hunt, but they sent a bow hunter and after.

Brian Krebs (01:11:43.02)

They've got video of the bull having to break through the oak brush. And the bull just, he just was overweight. And you could tell he was just like, I don't want to run, but I'm about to die, so I guess I'll have to run away. It's hilarious. It was honestly funny. We always laughed at it. Wow. Have you guys ever weighed any parts of the bulls that you guys get, like these big mature bulls? Like if you've ever weighed quarters

I haven't personally, no, I don't know if the other boys have. I mean, you know, they, lot of people say, yeah, a thousand pound bull elk. I don't think people know what the hell we're talking about. We're talking about a true, you know, mountain bull. Um, I mean, I think a big bull is going to be in that 800, maybe 900 pound range. And, you know, the bulls down there, so you talk to their big potty. I mean, they're, you know,

It never ceases to amaze you. Like we get one on the ground and we go walk up to it. like, oh man, we got a lot of work to do. There's a lot of animal on the ground here. we'll have to make quick work. That's exactly why I ask. Because a lot of people either talk about a bull elk weighs 1 ,000 pounds. Well, no, I don't think so. Not the raghorn you shot anyway. Not to be mean, but that raghorn did not weigh 1 ,000 pounds. Or the common one is 100 pound quarters.

And everyone's like, yeah, I've packed out a hundred pound quarters. Well, we've packed out a lot of elk. I've only weighed one and it was the North Dakota one. And that's because the day I shot him, I was home that next day, you know, it was in my home state. And so I had all the meat bags and I weighed everything. Because I was curious and it was the only time I've ever been able to do that. And this was a big bull. He was eight and a half years old, lab aged tooth. You know, so he could have easily lived for another four five years.

And, but this is North Dakota. there's hardly any snow, brutal winters in like cold and wind, but really not much snow out there. No predators for him, right? There's coyotes, but in the occasional mountain lion, but there's no wolves. There's no grizzly bears, low hunting pressure. There's grain fields, there's alfalfa fields. So it's kind of this dream scenario for an elk really, tons of food. They live in a river valley.

Brian Krebs (01:14:05.578)

And so this was a big elk. remember walking up on him. This was not the first elk I butchered. It was just the first one I had shot. And I looked at him and was like, holy shit. I did, foolishly, I packed out double quarters, two trips in a row, and then started packing the rest out. I got back home. Well, I trained really, really hard for it that year. Because I knew it was going to be hard. I was doing it solo. And so I'd go to the gym.

and I'd put three plates on my pack frame and do three plates with the pack frame on the incline treadmill or else I'd do like a plate and a half on the stair stepper. But you know, that's a lot, I know you know, that's a lot of weight. And so I weighed those quarters. The rears were both, I was surprised at how consistent everything was and mostly just because of the butchering, right? Like if things change, you don't make the same cut. Both rear quarters were exactly 82 pounds and that

that was without the lower like, like, you know, shin, you know, I the shin off at the joint. Um, and so I had the shank and both were 82, both fronts were 64. I didn't, was a little surprised. The fronts were as much as they were. Um, both back straps were 20 pounds, like 21, 22 pounds. Yeah. The neck meat on both sides was 40 pounds. And then, uh, the tenderloins were five pounds a piece. Yeah.

And I was just like, everything added up, but you know, being that it's like, I don't believe in a hundred pound outquarters, maybe a Rosie, but when people say hundred quarter, it's like, that was a big bowl. Maybe he could have gone bigger, but 25 % bigger. I don't know if I believed that. And, um, but I don't know, was he a thousand pounds? Was he not? And I know as antlers and his head cut off enough high to Mount to elk. And I, uh, I probably cut off a little extra neck.

and neck meat and his head and his antlers and all that water that was in his hide. I remember I could, packed everything else out. I packed, like I told you, double loads the first trip, double load the second trip. My dad carried out the backstraps, but he wasn't, he didn't train for it. So I didn't want him to really pack out anything to be honest. And then I came in for all the trim meat. And then I came in for the head. And when I got to the head, was like, I can't do

Brian Krebs (01:16:26.04)

Like I was had to, I had to bend over at like a 90 degree angle just to balance it. It was so mismanaged and so unbalanced and I'd take 10 steps and I'd be on fire. And I had just cranked out, you know, a trip in to shoot them a trip out a trip in with my parents to see them. Butchered them for three hours and then did three full loads out. You know, I cranked all through that. I was done, but I was on the last trip by 6 PM. So it wasn't that hard of a pack out, but that weight just broke

And so we came back the next day with the Ranger. think the, I don't know what it's called, the statute of limitations is up for driving a Ranger across public land. But we came in with a Ranger and put them in the back of a Ranger and threw them out. Yeah, those are always better to pack out. Yeah, this is why I like to have mule deer. They're a lot easier. You can put a whole mule deer on your back. It's uncomfortable, there's no way any man's putting them.

I'm 6 '1", 240 pounds, I'm not a small guy by any means. There's just no way. You hear about people. You hear about skinny dudes doing elk, like two of them packing out in one trip. And I'm like, I'm 6 '2", 270. So I'm a little bit heavier than I should be. But also no small dude. To put 100 pounds on my frame isn't that big of an adjustment. The same for you, But to do a half an elk?

in one trip like all the trip. That's like 250 pounds if you do bone in at all, you know, with all the trimmings and stuff. That's just not a good idea. No, no. It's funny. Well, it's not funny, but you talk about, you know, packing out elk. know, Ryan will tell you that he's got back problems and he believes that it's from packing out so many bulls over the last 20 years that he's been doing it, you know, and

You do have to be careful. mean, yes, is your body capable of it? Yeah, it's capable of it. At the same time, there may be a cost to that. I would much rather, you know, kind of my max where I set myself like a hind in the front, right? On elk and that's a lot of weight. Like, yeah, it's 146 pounds. know how much it is. I'm not going very far with that, right? I had to help Ben at Bradford's, Hunter, pack out a bull this last year.

Brian Krebs (01:18:47.256)

gorgeous six point bowl like 355, 360 and you know not a super old bowl but you know mature bowl probably seven or eight years old and yeah that was you know I think actually I'm trying to think back now my mind even taking the two fronts. I think Bennett might have taken two hinds we had another guy there Josh but he had a back injury so he was packing out a whole lot of weight and anyway El Conbrae from the back out.

That double quarters is like a, this was a slight uphill to the road. Like real slight. I'm not doing, I think down is almost worse in a way than up. Like I would rather go like moderate up than steep down. I would too. With set of poles too. You gotta have poles. got, you know, buddies making fun of me, whatever. I don't care, can make fun of all you want, but I'll take my old man sticks

There's so much better when you're packing stuff out. When I did the double load, it was my mom and my dad. My mom has never hiked in the mountains at all. And they're, they're both relatively older. They were probably, I don't know, late sixties when I shot this bowl. My dad had done a little bit of elk hunting, but he didn't train that year. And, you know, and so I'm like, I do not want one of these two to tip over, you know, get hurt. And so I gave one pole to my mom and one pole to my dad. And then I did the double quarters without a pole.

And luckily, like everyone was going slow enough, we were basically all at the same speed. My mom didn't have even a backpack on. My dad had a light pack with the back straps and then I had the heavy double pack and I hear you because then I got those poles back for the next three trips. I'm a big fan of those two. But no, man, it's been great. It's been great to have you here, Brian. I love talking big bucks with you. Really never knew about.

You know, I knew where Antelope Island was. I've heard about it, but I never really knew much about it. So was really interesting to talk through some of stuff that you guys have going on over there with the herd and all the things that have, you know, affected it. Yeah, it's, I mean, it really is just a, I mean, it shouldn't be this way, but it's just a very isolated, similar circumstance, I guess, kind of to our overall, you know, populations in the West, right? They're just, they're declining. Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:21:09.412)

And it's mismanagement. It's all these other things. It's a multitude of factors. don't, everyone tries to blame and pinpoint one thing and one problem and it's not, right? It's much more complicated than that. Anytime you're dealing with a species and the preservation of a species, it's much more complicated than just too many tags. It's much more complicated than just a drought. It's much more complicated than just bad winters. It's a multitude of these things. And my hope going forward is that

Positive changes are made and you know, like I said, I my best memories are growing up with my dad and I hope that I get a half of same opportunities for my dogs as well. Yeah. Yeah, I hope so too. If anything gives me hope it's you know, the kind of like the elk story where you know, we were down to like thousands of elk and You know in the 60s and 70s. There's a lot of work to be done and now elk

by and large are doing great. And I'm hopeful that that can be the same story as the Miele deer in the future. yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. Loved having you on. Yeah. Thanks for having me on, Yeah. Real quick before we break, where can people find you and follow along with some of the adventures that you've got going on in the fall? man. I'm not like super gung -ho about social media, but

It's just Brian, b -r -y -a -n dot period, hword. Brian dot hword. I'll post stuff that we kill. Obviously I want to let the hunters post and everyone else post before I throw a post up, but I need to be better. I need to be better about putting some stuff on there. I've got tons of cool video, trail cam and videos from my all -in

from these last couple years on the island, but I haven't shared it all. So probably I'll start doing some of that. Yeah. I'm the same way. I need to post more often than I do as well, but we'll put links to some of those down below. But yeah, once again, thank you for being here, Brian, and thank you for listening folks.

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