Hunt, Fish, Party

Graham from Vortex discusses hunting and shooting experiences, including the Vortex Ambassador Summit and the challenges of shooting a handgun. They also talk about the culture at Vortex and the passion for hunting and shooting among the employees. Graham shares his upcoming hunting plans in Wisconsin and South Dakota, with a focus on whitetail deer. They also discuss the differences between whitetail and mule deer behavior and hunting strategies. In this conversation, Dan and Graham discuss hunting opportunities in different states, including Wisconsin and South Dakota. They talk about the challenges of getting permission to hunt on private land and the increasing interest in hunting for organic meat. They also touch on the topic of Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) and the precautions hunters take when dealing with CWD-positive deer. The conversation concludes with a discussion about the impact of urban populations on hunting opportunities and the importance of knowing where your food comes from.

Takeaways:

• Vortex employees are passionate about hunting and shooting and participate in these activities themselves.
• Shooting a handgun is more challenging than it seems, and proper form and technique are crucial for accuracy.
• Vortex offers training courses, such as the Edge program, to help people improve their shooting skills.
• Whitetail deer in Western South Dakota are more skittish and alert compared to whitetails in the Midwest.
• Hunting plans can be opportunistic, focusing on the behavior of the animals and adjusting strategies accordingly. Getting permission to hunt on private land can be challenging, especially in areas with high urban populations.
• There is a growing interest in hunting for organic meat and knowing where your food comes from.
• Hunters take precautions when dealing with CWD-positive deer, such as getting the meat tested and disposing of it properly.
• The value placed on different species varies in different regions, with mule deer often being more highly valued than whitetail deer.
• Bow hunting can be a good way to gain access to smaller parcels of land and appeal to those who are more open to hunting for organic meat.
• The traditional hunting camp culture is changing, with more emphasis on hunting for big antler deer.
• The impact of urban populations on hunting opportunities can vary, with some areas being more protective of deer hunting land.
• Knowing where your food comes from and how it is prepared is important for many hunters.

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Dan Johnson (00:03.008)
Graham from Vortex is the guest today. How we doing, dude?

Graham Cronin (00:07.591)
man we're living we got coffee flowing now we're getting our Thursday started so yeah can't complain man how are you Good.

Dan Johnson (00:13.771)
I'm doing good, I'm doing real good. You're like, what, two hours, two and a half hours, three hours from me? Yeah, this weather that we are having, it's like cool in the morning now. It's not hot. It's got me itching, man. I'm ready, like, I wanna start doing deer stuff.

Graham Cronin (00:21.943)
Probably about that, yeah.

Graham Cronin (00:30.673)
man, we slept with the windows open last night and had that crisp in the air where it's like, you're starting to get that little bit of fall. I think we got some hotter weather coming next week, at least where we're at. But yeah, mean, it's definitely got deer on the mind for sure.

Dan Johnson (00:36.223)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (00:41.396)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (00:45.47)
Yeah. Yeah. But August is probably going to be heat indexes of a hundred and we'll be cursing at that point.

Graham Cronin (00:52.971)
Oh, it always is. you know, the other side of that is August cools off and you're thinking everything is going to be really good. then opening weekend middle of September here is like 95 mosquitoes. So yeah, that's usually how goes.

Dan Johnson (01:00.008)
That's fact that's a fact all right Is it have you ever done a nine finger chronicle solo just me and you podcast have we done

Graham Cronin (01:13.884)
I haven't, no. I think you've been trying to shelter me from a lot of the folks, which is probably the right call. But no, this is my first time on it, man. So excited to be here.

Dan Johnson (01:18.632)
Hahahaha

Dan Johnson (01:24.005)
Okay, so check this out. So we had the Vortex Ambassador Summit, what, three weeks ago now or something like that. And here's when I realized that I liked you. I mean, I liked you, but here's when I realized that I really liked you. So,

Graham Cronin (01:43.253)
I'm nervous about what you're gonna say here.

Dan Johnson (01:48.74)
We're sitting outside of the hotel and you know, cause it was really hot in the bar of the hotel and this little area and we're sitting outside having conversations with other guys and I started ripping off some, some jokes that I would, I would say were for the average person borderline inappropriate and not many people laughed at them except you. And then I was

This guy, like this guy gets it.

Graham Cronin (02:20.811)
Yeah, yeah, that's usually my approach too is you start with a couple jokes and you kind of see what people laugh at and you're like Okay, I know they're lying and then you keep pushing a little farther until you got that one person where you're like Yep, I can I can have fun with you. Yep

Dan Johnson (02:33.267)
Yep. Yep. we're high fiving and we're like, yeah, these jokes are hilarious. And then other people are like, I need another drink. And then they go away. Yep, exactly. Exactly.

Graham Cronin (02:42.765)
I don't know. And then it was just us telling jokes. So yeah, it was good. No, that was awesome, man. Yeah, that whole trip was a blast. yeah, obviously, thank you for making it up here. Hopefully you had a little bit of fun. Yeah, it was great getting that group of people in the same room. A lot of good ideas have come from it. So yeah, I think that was awesome.

Dan Johnson (02:56.119)
yeah.

Dan Johnson (03:00.429)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I learned a couple things. I learned that I absolutely suck at shooting a handgun and I didn't realize, you know, I thought shooting a gun was easier. Now I didn't. I have shot handguns before, but I've never went through the vortex like anything close to what the vortex edge training was like and

Graham Cronin (03:24.868)
Sure.

Dan Johnson (03:29.022)
It was a very, very humbling experience walking through that. And I have never ever in my life felt as frustrated as what I felt like trying to shoot a handgun at that in that training

Graham Cronin (03:47.33)
Yeah, and to your point, think that's something that a lot of people find, is they'll get into these courses and they're like, oh yeah, I've owned a handgun for 10 years, 20 years, know, it sits by my nightstand or whatever it might be, but they really don't practice with it. I think a lot of people think that shooting handguns are super intuitive and it's just point shoot when there's a whole lot more into that. I mean, our instructors relate it very similar to shooting a bow, right? I mean, there's so much like your torque, how you're holding it. I mean, all of that can change where your projectile's going, so.

Dan Johnson (04:06.729)
Yeah.

Graham Cronin (04:17.426)
Yeah, it's a humbling experience before I definitely been there with you. I'm by no means, I'd say good with a handgun. But yeah, I mean, to your point, there's so much that goes into it. And if you don't do it all the time, like those instructors, they're down there shooting all the time. So whether they're instructing or they're doing their own training, trying to get themselves better, or they're shooting competitions, they're constantly pushing. So to see them do it, you're like, yeah, I've got a lot of work to do. Yeah.

Dan Johnson (04:31.763)
every

Dan Johnson (04:41.777)
Exactly. And for all the people out there complaining about the nine millimeter case shortage that's going on in the world or whatever, because, know, for a while there all the nine millimeter, you couldn't find nine millimeter bullets. And I know where they're all at now. They're all at your guys's facility. I mean, just boxes of ammunition. was it was pretty sweet to

Graham Cronin (04:56.31)
yeah.

Graham Cronin (05:04.645)
Yeah, we burn through quite a bit, especially for a lot of our intro courses where we provide ammo for the shooters and then obviously our own training. So we always like to have some on hand too in case somebody shows up and they either don't have the best ammo for training or maybe they don't have enough. So we just always try to have some on hand. But yeah, don't send us any complaints about ammo shortages. You can direct all those to Dan. Dan will facilitate all those comments.

Dan Johnson (05:26.781)
I'll facilitate. Yep. Okay. So as an employee there at Vortex, have you gone through many of the edge courses?

Graham Cronin (05:38.288)
Yeah, a handful of them. I'm doing a couple more pistol ones actually next month. But yeah, so we try and get down there, shoot as much as we can. I mean, it's nice too, because we can kind of work with those instructors and do a little bit more custom stuff for us.

But yeah, I've done the the hunter marksmanship course, a couple of the pistol courses, the intro to long range course, and they're all super, super valuable. And I mean, there's something for everybody there. So I mean, if anybody's interested in learning how to shoot better, just kind of refine those skills, or maybe you haven't shot at all and you just are looking to get into it. I mean, there's something for everybody. And even the specialty courses. I mean, we've got night vision courses that hunter marksmanship when we talked about. And I think a lot of people, when they look at a lot of training courses, they think, this is

you know, military guys or, you know, law enforcement. And it's like, you might be in a class and you might have some law enforcement in there or military guys, but you also might have the person that just bought their first gun last week and learning how to use it. And that's what makes our instructors so good is they can tailor all of those classes into

seeing how everybody's shooting and kind of graduate as you go. Like just like you saw in the pistol class, there's probably a wide range of people that were shooting that different skill levels and they can kind of advance the class based on how everybody's doing. So based on how it sounded like you were doing, it might've took a little bit longer, but they got moving.

Dan Johnson (06:51.054)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (06:54.52)
Well, I tell you what, if I had that gun and there was an intruder in my house, I'm first I'm emptying the clip more than likely, and then I'm throwing the gun at the intruder, which would probably have better accuracy than me actually trying to shoot this guy. And here's the crazy part. Five yards, right? So when I when I started shooting.

I was hitting the target at five yards. Great. I stepped back just another five yards to 10 and I was missing the target at 10 yards. And so that was really eye opening for me. Just like, look at how much at this point, and I would almost say it's probably more important with a handgun that you're form than it is at archery, shooting a bow.

I would say, I mean, got, don't know, there's two hands, you got anchor points on your nose if you're running a kisser button or putting your nose on the string and putting your hand up here by your jaw, whatever. It's not like that with a firearm. And so even just being off a little bit can be off a lot at down range. And so again, very humbling experience for doing

Graham Cronin (08:17.394)
Yeah, absolutely. And to your point too, like I think it's a lot of that muscle memory, just like shooting a bow, right? You get those anchor points, you know how everything should feel. You do it all the time. And like that's how those instructors are down at edge. Like you get a handgun in their hands and they hold it the same time and they just practice. They practice drawing, getting their grip, and then they'll put it down. Drawing, getting their grip, putting it down. But yeah, so mean, I think it to your point, it can definitely have a huge impact if you're not doing all those things consistently with a pistol. yeah, it's humbling, humbling for sure.

Dan Johnson (08:32.072)
Yep. Yep.

Dan Johnson (08:46.705)
Yeah, I forget. Are you military? Do you have a no, you're not. OK, all right. I thought maybe you did. Here's the good thing. If I was a scumbag, I get asked all the time, hey, were you in the military? We have military discounts and and I say no, I can't. But something about me screams military and I I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know. OK, that could be

Graham Cronin (08:49.531)
I am not, no, no, no.

Graham Cronin (09:08.998)
I can see it. I can see it. You got that strong presence about you. I think that's what it is.

Dan Johnson (09:16.005)
That could be it. I don't know if I've ever told this story, but when I was in high school, my mom was like, why don't you go to, know, like, what are you going to do after college? Because I didn't, or after high school, I didn't want to go to college. And so I had a meeting at the local Pizza Hut with a Marine Corps recruiter and we were started talking about it. Well, I had after football season, my junior year, I had

knee surgery, so I had to have a screw and a staple in one of my knees. Well, I told that to the recruiter and he's like, well, because of that, we're probably not going to take you. And so I didn't know, like, there was that. And I was that kind of guy back then that was like, either all in Marine Corps or I'm nothing at all, right? And so then at that point, my mom started to talk me into

started to talk me into college and she talked me in for two years and she talked me in for another two years and then I did absolutely zero with my college education.

Graham Cronin (10:23.583)
Yeah, yeah, I can relate to a little bit on that aspect. My degree is in finance, so yeah, clearly I'm using that really heavily right now, you know.

Dan Johnson (10:29.879)
Yeah. Right now. Yeah. Yeah. But I'll tell you what, I can teach someone how to shotgun a beer real good if they ever want

Graham Cronin (10:37.087)
Hey, and that's the skills that people need right there.

Dan Johnson (10:40.012)
Those are life lessons. Yeah, life lessons. OK, so I was thinking about this. I was thinking about this while I was on the toilet earlier this morning and I'm scrolling like most people do. You're scrolling through social media. And have you ever heard of the game? Mary Bang Kill and I'm I'm I'm changing the word. Yeah, OK. All right. So I want to change this up just a little

Graham Cronin (11:03.413)
I'm familiar. I'm familiar, yeah.

Graham Cronin (11:09.33)
Okay.

Dan Johnson (11:09.633)
And I wanna call it Hunt Fish Party. Okay? But we're limiting down to Vortex employees.

Graham Cronin (11:15.071)
Okay?

Graham Cronin (11:21.319)
okay.

Dan Johnson (11:22.398)
Okay, so you have to hunt with somebody, you gotta fish with somebody, and then you have to, you can party with somebody.

Graham Cronin (11:32.458)
That's tough, I'm gonna make a lot of people angry with this one. That's tough.

Dan Johnson (11:34.911)
Hey, I'll tell you what, I do accept multiple, multiple anger or answers and you can spew this off any way that you want.

Graham Cronin (11:42.93)
Okay, so I think the cop -out answer for me would be to hunt with Eric Barber. We go hunting almost every year together in some facet. We usually try and do a deer hunt in the fall together. This year we're doing South Dakota.

Dan Johnson (11:54.187)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Graham Cronin (11:57.255)
Or, you know, we'll try and mix in some turkey hunts whenever we can. But I'm gonna go with someone I've never hunted with, and that'd be Ryan Muchenherne. I know you've had him on the podcast. He is just a wealth of knowledge, and I think I could just learn a lot from him, being on a hunt with him. Yep. Yep.

Dan Johnson (12:11.613)
Yeah, dude, that was my answer to that was my answer to some about that guy. I don't know what it is, but it's like he's like kind of soft spoken. But at the same time, like this dude knows his shit. Type of personality. Yeah, OK.

Graham Cronin (12:27.86)
yeah. Yep. Yeah. And yeah, I've known plenty of people here have gone on hunts with him and we've talked about a couple. But I mean, just the wealth of knowledge he has and I think his he is very tactical with his approach to everything he does. And I think the odds of success would be pretty good too, depending on what you're hunting, you know.

for fishing i'm i think i'm gonna go with the little mark boardman i think you know whether we're doing small fishing or you know marks appears so i could see him put on a good fly fishing clinic you know i think it also be funny just to get him out there i'm sure you know mark like i'm sure there'd be no shortage of couple beers had on the fishing boat and he'd be good one fish with them to party with

Dan Johnson (12:50.779)
Okay.

Dan Johnson (13:02.993)
Yeah.

Graham Cronin (13:14.297)
That's a tough one, but I think I'm going to go with Mr. Sawyer Briel on that one. We've partied a couple times together, most recently at a local beer tent, and there might have been some karaoke involved where Mr. Sawyer busted it out pretty good, so he's a good time once you get him to let loose. So think I'll go party with Sawyer Briel, yeah.

Dan Johnson (13:33.199)
That's a great lineup. Now here's where I'm gonna change. Because I'm not as knowledgeable about fishing as the average guy, like I've learned everything from my father -in -law, but Maggie, right? She's a lip ripper, hard and she's on

Graham Cronin (13:49.975)
If you want to get on the bass, she's the one to take you for sure.

Dan Johnson (13:53.397)
Exactly and she's on the she's on the Bassmaster tournament or was or is or something like that and so I think she's she's the one I'm gonna go fishing with and then Yeah, yeah, and then party. It's a no -brainer, dude. I'm talking to that dude right now I'm talking to that dude. I'm talking to that dude right now, but the good thing is Party you can fish party you can hunt right you go and hunt and then you party

Graham Cronin (14:05.626)
she'd get you on them for sure.

Graham Cronin (14:13.305)
Hahaha!

Graham Cronin (14:19.909)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we saw it at that Ambassador Summit. You do work during the day. We stayed up until 2 a .m. some of those nights. Yeah.

Dan Johnson (14:21.75)
and then you go and fish and then you can party, right?

Dan Johnson (14:27.497)
Yep. That's a fact. Yep. That last morning I was pretty tired,

Graham Cronin (14:38.453)
yeah, mean once you hit that point in the day and you know after two full days of being here three nights I think everyone had their fill for sure in a good way. Yep.

Dan Johnson (14:47.413)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Man, I'll tell you what, I know now Vortex has gone throughout the years as kind of like a, it's gone to, from a small type of medium type company to now these, now you guys are mega, right? You guys are big time, you guys are cream of the crop. Like there's nobody better type of company.

Like it is so impressive just looking at your guys' facility, how crystal clean it is, how every single person there that I've talked to is nice, genuine, passionate. And the cool thing about everybody that works at Vortex is everybody that I've met so far, they are participants in shooting.

in hunting in some way shape or form involved in the products that you guys sell and you can't say that for a lot of other companies.

Graham Cronin (15:57.875)
Yeah, no, mean, it's an amazing place to work. And I think to your point, the facilities and like how clean they are and all the details that go into it. mean, that's a true testament to the Hamilton's, the owners. And then also just going from the top to the bottom of the company. Right. Everybody there cares about it. We all have the same passions. It's kind of one of those core models that we talked about while you're here shoveling snow, like no jobs beneath you. So it's like people want to take care of, they're proud to work here. So they want it to look nice. But yeah, I mean, everybody here, you know, either

Dan Johnson (16:23.065)
Yep. Yep.

Graham Cronin (16:27.859)
shoots fishes to some capacity. There's some people that don't, right? And that's totally fine. And you know, so that's kind of what inspired us. We recognize that. And we started that learn to hunt program that we're doing internally a couple years back. Because I think there was kind of a stigma out there where people were like, I can't apply to Vortex. I don't hunt or like, I've never shot a gun before. I can't work there. And it's like, there's so many different job opportunities here

you know, it's not a requirement by any means in any position, you know, outside of like an edge instructor, right? That would be a big one where you have to have some experience. But so we kind of recognize that and opened up that learn to hunt program because, you know, even if it's not something that people are going to pick up and do for the rest of their life, at least they can say, hey, I've done it. I appreciate it. I get why people do it. And it gives them a little bit credit because they can say, hey, you know, I use this product out in the field. I tested this out.

Dan Johnson (16:56.151)
Right. Yeah.

Graham Cronin (17:18.461)
I see why this works for this application or why this doesn't work for that application. So yeah, we try and really get that ingrained into everybody and at least give them the opportunity if they're interested. And I mean, so far we've seen really good interest in that, which has been cool to see.

Dan Johnson (17:31.01)
Yeah, that's cool. Hey, I don't know why I'm asking this, but do you know Lisa Townes? Yeah, okay. I have a, I know Lisa just through email only, right? Now I have no idea. I don't know anything about her other than a gut feeling that I have that she is a pretty sweet person. Like she's a cool,

Graham Cronin (17:41.897)
How do you know Lisa?

Okay.

Dan Johnson (17:57.367)
I don't know anything about her other than her emails. And when she says thank you and replies, I think that is genuine. My gut feeling tells me it's genuine. And so maybe the next time that I'm up at Vortex and we're gonna party, maybe it could be me, you and Lisa Towns.

Graham Cronin (18:17.747)
I think that would be a blast. I mean, to your point, Lisa's a sweetheart. mean, she's the type, you you pass her in the hallway, she's always got a smile on her face asking you how you're doing. But I think she should be down to party too. I think she could have a good time, yeah.

Dan Johnson (18:20.927)
Okay, good.

Dan Johnson (18:27.869)
Okay. All right. Well, maybe we just show up into her office someday in the legal department and we're like, you ready to go? Are you ready to go? I love it. I love it. man. all right, dude, you already kind of mentioned South Dakota this year. What else? What's else? Like, what are you doing? You're going with Eric to South Dakota. What's the plan there? What are you doing the rest of the

Graham Cronin (18:36.615)
I don't know if it'd take too much convincing. think she'd be ready.

Graham Cronin (18:54.586)
Yeah, so big focus for me this year is going to be hunting home state of Wisconsin. So going into this season, I've got three buck tags, which is a little unusual. But the buck I shot last year tested positive for CWD. So in Wisconsin, if it tests positive, they give you a replacement tag for that year. And if you don't fill it, it rolls over to the next year.

So that's going be a big push for me. I three buck tags in the home state. don't that's going to be a lot. So I definitely want to try and focus on some early season stuff here. But then after that, Eric and I are going to head out to South Dakota kind of end of October. We're planning on right now, kind of trying to hit that pre -rut activity.

Plan out there, we're going to the far western part of the state so trying to just kind of figure out you know it's an either species tag for archery out there so probably glassing a lot of river bottoms trying to find out what the whitetails are doing and then you know depending if there's a midday opportunity where everything's kind of laying low maybe driving around trying to see if there's any muleys that we can get on or you know see if we can find a bedded whitetail and get on them and then just have a really dialed plan for that evening based on you know that intel we get scouting in the morning.

Dan Johnson (20:03.002)
Yeah, so you guys are gonna go to Western South Dakota with Whitetail as a priority?

Graham Cronin (20:12.077)
I would say whitetails probably the focus just because I would say that's probably what I feel most confident in. I mean if we get on muleys and there's a spot in stock situation we're going to give our hell but I think we're going to probably blow I mean at least me personally I'll probably blow more more chances than I'll probably actually get a shot at. So I mean just obviously being more familiar with whitetails I think that's going to be our priority just from a confidence standpoint.

Dan Johnson (20:35.297)
Mm -hmm Yeah, absolutely I'll tell you this man I love South Dakota and if you if you hunt all day and you're like your your your ridge or drainage jumping and I'm telling you right now you if you're in the right spot, you can do multiple stocks a day man now with for me multiple stocks equals

multiple blown stocks but but yeah exactly and whitetails yeah dude whitetails are there yet it i'd have you ever hunted south dakota before

Graham Cronin (21:07.436)
That's I think we're the same camp there probably.

Graham Cronin (21:17.716)
I haven't know historically Eric and I have gone to North Dakota. mean essentially where we're going in South Dakota, but just straight north of there. And last year we hunted it and the deer numbers were really hurting. So we figured, you know, it's not something that we think was going to bounce back within a year from the area that we were focusing on. So we just figured try a different state out and see what we can get into.

Dan Johnson (21:37.931)
Yeah, yeah, you guys are gonna have an absolute blast and you're definitely gonna see whitetails I'll tell you that they're all over the place in those river bottoms one thing that I've noticed is Whitetails in South Dakota, especially Western South Dakota and just Western whitetails in general man, their attention level is cranked to 11 like yeah, which is exactly what you want to hear

Graham Cronin (22:01.941)
Perfect. Yep, good.

Dan Johnson (22:05.489)
So a Midwestern whitetail, Wisconsin, Iowa, even Illinois, a truck drives down the road. They'll just stop. They'll look at you. Whitetails, Truck stops, they're gone. They see you, they're gone. And they run until you can't see them anymore. And so that's been my opinion of whitetails. Now, at least mule deer, they'll stop, they'll look at you for a little bit. They'll bounce a little bit. They'll stop, they'll look at you. And then they'll start walk, you know.

Graham Cronin (22:16.7)
They're gone.

Dan Johnson (22:33.81)
they'll go away unless you you hard bump them. yeah, those Western whitetails man, they are a completely different breed.

Graham Cronin (22:34.504)
Sure. Yeah.

Graham Cronin (22:41.382)
And what do you attribute that to? Is it a pressure thing? Is it a terrain thing?

Dan Johnson (22:46.276)
You know, my my guess is this. My guess is that between coyotes, between humans, between potential, I don't know if you're in the Black Hills area, mountain lions, you talk to any rancher out there, they seem to think that there is a invasion of mountain lions, man, anywhere from.

Nebraska up to South Dakota and I've heard guys from North Dakota talk about it as well They seem to think that that population has a huge impact on it. But my guess is that Dudes are shooting from them their trucks all year round People are like I would think that because I've I've done this before where I've seen a bedded mule deer and I've walked I've seen

Graham Cronin (23:23.92)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (23:35.151)
But instead of stopping and glassing, I just kept walking until I disappeared behind the ridge. And I was able to come back around and make a stock on that mule deer. Whitetails, I'm guessing just their nature is a little bit more jumpy in general. And you mix that with way less cover. And now you have a scenario where they are just they're they don't want to take any chances.

Graham Cronin (24:04.887)
Yeah, no, and that makes sense. I know you'd mentioned, you know, blowing a bunch of spot and stock opportunities there. So when you're doing that all day, are you kind of focusing that during the evening hours too, or are you actually getting to a point where you're setting up, you know, whether it's in a saddle tree stand at a pinch point, or are you still looking for those opportunities where you can sneak up on one?

Dan Johnson (24:21.693)
Yeah

Dan Johnson (24:25.822)
Yeah, really. I've had so this is the biggest dilemma that I've always had. I am so used to whitetails, right? I'm so used to whitetails that I keep I go into the hills. looking for mule there, but my eyes are always kind of like, hey, look, my God, there's a whitetail. my God, there's a white like my head keeps shifting towards whitetails. And so I'm going to South Dakota for a specific reason. And

to hunt mule deer, but I just keep veering, so I have to keep telling myself, like, dude, you're here for mule deer. Go try, because there's no mule deer in Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, Missouri, Minnesota, right? So all the neighboring states to the east or south is all whitetails. So if I wanna do that, if I wanna go hunt whitetails, why am I not hunting an over -the -counter state like Wisconsin or Missouri? And so I try

tell myself that every year, but I've run into some really good white tails throughout the course of the year. so I'm out there, but I keep, my head keeps kind of shifting. It's like, hey, I'm with a beautiful woman, but another beautiful woman walks by and you're just like, hey, check out that beautiful woman too. Yeah, I got, okay, got this one. got to shift back. I got to shift back. So that's, I don't

Graham Cronin (25:42.684)
No, no, I got this one. I got this one.

Graham Cronin (25:48.434)
No, that's good to know and I think my approach, at least going out there this year, is just gonna be really opportunistic. Again, like knowing whitetails a little bit more than muleys and having more confidence in figuring out what they're doing versus my skills to spot and stalk a muley. It's gonna be, hey, let's really figure out what the whitetails are doing. Okay, they're coming out to this point every day or they're using this draw to funnel out.

and then focus on that in the evening. But also, hey, if we are driving around and get on some muleys, like, yeah, let's try it, you know? So yeah, it's gonna be fun for sure.

Dan Johnson (26:22.428)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So outside of South Dakota, you said just Wisconsin then,

Graham Cronin (26:31.42)
So Wisconsin, then we're kicking around the idea of getting a group together to do like a late December Oklahoma whitetail hunt too. So that one's still kind of TBD, but that one could be interesting too.

Dan Johnson (26:42.428)
Yeah, keep me in mind for that one. If I don't want to invite myself, but I'm going down to Kansas this year and if I tag out early down in Kansas, my goal is to potentially drop down into Oklahoma. With that said, Oklahoma has just increased their tag prices from like $300 for two buck tags and three dough tags to $700 for that. And so it's a pretty significant price jump.

Graham Cronin (26:45.283)
Okay. Yeah.

Dan Johnson (27:12.613)
for non -resonance.

Graham Cronin (27:13.847)
Yeah, yeah, that's definitely steep. mean, the amount of deer you can shoot, those obviously, you know, it kind of weighs out a little bit because there's a lot of other states where, you know, you're only getting, you either one buck tag or one doe tag or whatever it might look like. And that's one thing I wish Wisconsin would do is up our non -resident tags. Cause right now, like it's very affordable to hunt Wisconsin. And it's like, even if you doubled it from what it is now, like people are still going to pay it.

Dan Johnson (27:18.937)
Yeah, exactly.

Dan Johnson (27:38.895)
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Graham Cronin (27:40.333)
But yeah, we'll definitely keep you in mind for Oklahoma. We're still kind of figuring out what those details look like and if it's something, it's kind of one of those two, Eric and I were talking that, you Eric's, you know, Eric, his confidence level and outlook on every hunt is it's going to be the best thing ever. We're going to tag out in two days and confidence level is up here. So granted, he thinks we're going to be done in South Dakota in like three days. We're both going to be tagged out, but for whatever reason, if we're not,

Dan Johnson (27:50.393)
Yep.

Graham Cronin (28:08.694)
It's also like, okay, if I've got that pocket or that tag in my pocket in December, maybe go back there versus, you know, going to a different state. So we're still kind of kicking that around.

Dan Johnson (28:16.779)
Yeah, yeah, awesome, awesome. Let me ask you a question. Okay, so explain a little bit more in detail about this CWD buck that you shot and like why you got a replacement tag for that buck.

Graham Cronin (28:22.284)
Yeah.

Graham Cronin (28:34.006)
Yeah, so ended up shooting this buck on October 21st this year. And I mean, like walking in healthy three and a half year old buck, you know, didn't have any signs of anything going on, which is a lot of the case, you know, those are the type of deer that you shoot that test positive. The area that I was in though is kind of like the epicenter of CWD ground zero, if you will. I I was about 10 minutes from like vortex HQ here, right? So a little private piece I got access to. And so.

took him in, gave him lymph nodes, got him tested, got the results back within a week. And essentially, you know, Wisconsin recommends that you do not eat any of the meat from a CWD positive deer. So to incentivize people to go out there and try and harvest more deer, they give you a replacement tag. So whether it's a doe or a buck, they'll give you a replacement tag. It's actually interesting. This is the last year was the first year I believe where it's a non weapon specific tag and it also rolls over.

Historically, it had to be so if I shot one test positive, I'd have the choice. I could either get it for that same year, or I could push it out to the next year one or the other, where now they made it where you get it for this year. And if you don't fill it, it just rolls over. So I mean,

Dan Johnson (29:47.135)
Is that, is that rollover like, okay, let's say you don't fill it this year, you don't fill it next year. Okay, just one year rollover,

Graham Cronin (29:52.049)
Nope, so then it'd be done. Yep. Correct. Yep. like shot them in 23, get a replacement tag. It's good for the rest of 23 and 24 if I don't fill it. Yep.

Dan Johnson (30:01.905)
Okay, all right. And that's where the three buck tags come in now to play for this year.

Graham Cronin (30:05.659)
Correct, so I'll have my regular archery, my regular gun, and then the replacement tag. Yep.

Dan Johnson (30:10.073)
Okay, all right. Just out of personal opinion, what are your thoughts on consuming meat from a CWD positive deer?

Graham Cronin (30:21.167)
Yeah, honestly, I probably have at some point.

You know, I mean, it's kind of one of those things like if you take a deer to a processor and get anything made out of it unless you're doing like a private batch like if you're getting any type of sausage, baloney, snack sticks, whatever it might be when they're mixing all that like there's probably a good chance that you've had it. It's also one of those things. I don't know if I want to be patient zero. Like I don't want to be the one that's like, yeah, it does transfer. Like there are side effects. I guess for my aspect, too, I mean, I've got four kids and wife and it's

Dan Johnson (30:42.906)
Yeah, exactly.

Dan Johnson (30:46.767)
Yeah.

Graham Cronin (30:52.31)
long term effects. Do I want them eating that year after year or whatever it might be? So yeah, I generally don't. I'm sure I'm have. But I think it also just depends on the person to write like if you're a single guy and you're like, Hey, I need this meat. Like, I'm not going to tell you what to do with it. Right? That's totally up to you. If I can avoid it, though, like especially like with the family, right? I'm not going to serve it on the dinner plate to folks but

Dan Johnson (31:10.349)
Right. Right.

Dan Johnson (31:17.612)
Yeah, yeah. So are you testing every single deer that you shoot now in Wisconsin?

Graham Cronin (31:24.014)
For the most part, yeah, especially like if I shoot any in the southern part of the state, like kind of where we're at. like that farm that I was telling you about where I shot this one, historically about 60 % test positive at that farm.

Dan Johnson (31:36.601)
Yeah.

Graham Cronin (31:38.082)
But like gun opener, I go up north where it's not as prevalent. So I'd probably be more confident not testing one there, but it's also one of those where they incentivize you to get them tested because even if it does test positive, you get a bonus tag, right? And it's a free thing to do. So I mean, it takes two seconds to cut those little lymph nodes out and send them in for samples. So it's one of those, I generally do it. And I mean, it gives the DNR good research too. So they're seeing, you know, what deer popping up where.

Dan Johnson (31:52.29)
Yeah.

Graham Cronin (32:07.178)
So something I think everybody should do. It doesn't really take any time. It's free to do. And like I said, like with the case last year, you know, whether you eat the meat or not, you know, you get it tested, you get a bonus tag, you know, so it's it's kind of a cool opportunity in that regard.

Dan Johnson (32:20.671)
Did you get to keep the antlers from that buck you shot? wow. there's a like you could just, now what happens if the next buck you shoot is CWD positive? Do you get another one and another one and another one? Man, so you could go on a slaying mission if by circumstance.

Graham Cronin (32:42.227)
You could. Yeah, if you were a better deer hunter than I would, yeah, you could definitely do some damage there. But yeah, I mean, again, it's just, especially in the southern part of the state, I think they're really trying to incentivize people shooting deer.

just knowing how prevalent CWD is. mean, there's a lot of counties down here where like the doe numbers are getting pretty out of control simply because people know the prevalence of CWD and they're thinking, if I'm going to shoot a doe for meat, you know, I'm going to go somewhere else in the state. Like I'm going to save this for a buck tag. I'm not going to shoot one down here. And it's kind of like, you know, to combat that you want to shoot more deer. So they're trying to incentivize it that way. But yeah, to your point, I mean, if you consistently shoot those deer, yeah, you'd get a bonus tag for every one you shoot.

Dan Johnson (33:12.369)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (33:18.024)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (33:25.052)
Yeah, yeah. So you shoot, you shot your buck. Did you, you take, did you cape them out and immediately send it in? And then, so what did you do with the meat while it was getting tested?

Graham Cronin (33:40.453)
Yeah, great question. So Wisconsin makes it super easy to get them tested, right? There's drop box locations. I mean, all over the state. I mean, there's one five minutes from my house and you can do it a number of ways. You can either, you know, just cut the head off kind of like mid neck or like right below the jaw line. You just want to make sure that you don't cut into those lymph nodes. And you can put the whole head in there. A lot of people do that, especially, you know, if it's, you know, a doe or, you know, a buck they don't care about for whatever reason. And they just put that in there and.

trash bag with their paperwork filled out and away you go. The other option is you can just cut out the lymph nodes and then they want you to cut out two for sure just so they can make sure they can do a second test if you know one comes back negative or positive to confirm it and then you put in a little ziplock bag you get a barcode you can you scan the QR code with your phone you put in all your information I mean total it probably took me less than eight minutes

fill out everything and get it tested. So they do a really good job of making it easy and making it accessible for people to test. So generally what I would do is like I'll cord them out. I've got a chest freezer. So like I had the deer corded and everything cut up and just kind of stored in there until I get those results back. And they're really good at getting results back to you as quickly as possible. Like that time of the year, October 21st is when I shot him. I think I had my results

maybe five business days, six business days, I them back. Again, it depends on the drop box location and how often they're checking it too. That plays a big part. I know the one that's close to my house gets checked pretty regularly and you can call the person in charge of it and let them know you just dropped one off. So they're a little bit more attentive to it. So I had that answer back pretty dang quick. But you know, as you get closer to like the rut gun season, like that can be a little bit longer. Like I've heard, you know,

10 to 14 days, people will wait. So obviously that takes a little bit longer just with the amount of deer that they're testing. But yeah, so I'll usually just hang on to it and then decide what I want to do with it after that point. So

Dan Johnson (35:38.357)
Okay, so you're still processing it, you're still freezing it, you're treating it as if it is not CWD positive and then when you separate the meat and then when you find out it's CWD positive, you get rid of it. Okay.

Graham Cronin (35:54.528)
Yep, yep. we actually found somebody that, you know, they feed venison to their dogs, they make their own dog food out of it. And they had no concerns about it. So I donated to them. And so it still got consumed, which is good. You know, you always hate, you know, putting in a dumpster, putting in the trash or anything. So it was good to see that it still went to some use. But

Dan Johnson (36:05.997)
Yep. Wasting it,

Graham Cronin (36:13.469)
Yeah, it's one of those things, know, ideal situation, you know, you'd have a big walk -in freezer, you can just have it strung up, throw it in there, wait for your results. I don't have that luxury, unfortunately, so yeah, just kind of plan for the best case scenario and then, you know, if you get the news that it is positive, you just act accordingly.

Dan Johnson (36:30.493)
Yeah. So what right now in Wisconsin, you mentioned that from HQ you are, you have a fairly, a permission on a piece of property. What is the, the knock on door scenario in Wisconsin right now? you know, if you want to talk on Southern Wisconsin, that's fine. But, if a guy like me shows up, starts knocking on doors in Wisconsin, what do you think my chances of getting permission

Graham Cronin (36:58.955)
I'm reminded of that dumb and dumber scene right now. It's like one in a million. So you're saying there's a chance? It's like, yeah. I would say most door knocking opportunities for deer.

Dan Johnson (37:04.211)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Graham Cronin (37:11.919)
are gonna be harder to come by. Like turkey's a different story. Like I do quite a bit of door knocking for turkeys writing letters and have gotten some good access that way, but people are definitely more protective over deer or they've got family that comes up and hunts during rifle season only and they're like, no, we're gonna leave it alone for that. It's definitely possible. Like there are definitely leases around too. So I mean, there's that opportunity. But yeah, it's one of those things that you almost have to know somebody.

Dan Johnson (37:13.523)
Yep. Yeah.

Dan Johnson (37:40.207)
Right. Right.

Graham Cronin (37:40.536)
Right, like the average stranger walking up, unless you've got a, you know, hey, I talked to your brother or your cousin or your nephew and you he told me you might be interested, like you get a little bit better opportunity there. yeah, overall people are pretty protective of their deer and deer hunting land here.

Dan Johnson (37:57.231)
Gotcha. Yeah. I same just about everywhere now. Right. I mean, everywhere. And then like out in Western. Now, the good thing I like about South Dakota is there's a ton of grassland, a ton of public land, BLM, forestry service. I mean, you name it, core engineer ground, you name it. They have it available outside of that. There is a big discrepancy on quality deer on public first private out out in Western South Dakota.

I've driven by some absolute gigantic mule deer on private ground. And then you drive a little further down and then it's just forkeys, right? For as far as I can see. Now, are the big dogs out there? Yes, they're probably out there. But with that said, it's crazy that every single piece of property for the most part is leased up or on

Outfit fitter has leased it for permission to run clients on I mean because some of these white or these mule deer out and I can only speak for what I know They're charging seven grand a hunt for a white tail or for a mule deer if not more now and so Yeah, and so you got a hundred and seventy inch 170 inch mule they're going for seven, you know seven grand It's a no -brainer for some of these ranchers to just add that little income

Graham Cronin (39:10.431)
easy.

Dan Johnson (39:23.572)
especially if they're not hunting and they can run cattle on the property at the same

Graham Cronin (39:28.449)
they don't have to do anything for that extra income except for facilitate the giving of the rights, you know? But do you find that...

Dan Johnson (39:30.667)
Yep. The deal. Yeah, exactly.

Graham Cronin (39:35.787)
they are more protective and more likely to say no for mule deer hunting versus whitetail. Cause that's generally what we have found in North Dakota is like, we'll be out there and you know, we did some door knocking and people really don't have as much protection or value that they put on whitetails versus mule deer. It's like, you're hunting whitetails. Like go for it. Like whatever. We had one guy tell us he wouldn't even eat a whitetail. And it's like, okay, well we would. So yeah, if you don't mind.

Dan Johnson (39:55.413)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (40:01.183)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, I never approached it that way because I've been so focused on trying to get it get permission to hunt mule deer out there. And so I've never really had that conversation. But from just listening to people talk and, you know, doing this podcast, whitetail are a secondary species out there. And and they're like, well, they're everywhere in the river bottoms.

Nobody wants to hunt them because they're just a stupid old whitetail, right? While everybody comes into that area to hunt mule deer. It could potentially be an overlooked type of environment. And I don't know. That's a great question that I feel like I need to talk to people a little bit more about moving forward, especially if I'm trying to get permission.

Graham Cronin (40:54.054)
Yeah, and that's what, like I said, that's what we kind of found in North Dakota. So it'll be interesting, you know, if we do any door knocking in South Dakota. But yeah, it's one of those things, it's like, you drove all the way from Wisconsin to hunt a whitetail. It's like, yeah, you know, different terrain, different opportunity. You you add the adventure element to it. Like, yeah, we're all about it. They're like, go nuts, don't shoot the mule deer, but have fun with the whitetails. It's like, we will.

Dan Johnson (41:05.072)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Dan Johnson (41:14.768)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until until some dumbass acts like he shoots a mule deer that's in some clover plot or, you know, some some pivot and and then they find out and now now they're just absolutely no no hunting on my property at all because of that. So, yeah, that's that's a very interesting, interesting and it's funny how different species have different

What's the word I'm looking for? Like obviously out out in Western. Yeah value, right? Like. Yeah, so in Iowa, like the whitetails king, right? Turkeys nobody cares about a dude. I bet you if you love trapping any any person that you knocked on their door and said, hey, I want to trap coons or coyotes. You're in. You want to hunt coyotes? You're in. Like they will. They'll they'll let you do predator hunting all day long.

Graham Cronin (41:48.514)
Almost value, you know? Like that's what I would describe it as,

Graham Cronin (42:03.117)
So, easy.

Graham Cronin (42:09.729)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (42:13.362)
Coyotes and mountain lions. I'm sure if in those places that we've been discussing someone says, I want to shoot some coyotes. Yeah, you go for it. Just go for it. And turkeys. Yeah, that's that's cool. The weird thing about like South Dakota is wherever I've been, you know, there's obviously this gigantic lack of trees in in the Plains states. But wherever there's turkeys, there's hundreds.

Graham Cronin (42:22.134)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (42:42.495)
and hundreds and hundreds of turkeys and I don't think anybody really hunts them too terribly hard in these pockets. In these pockets. there's that species as well that could potentially be like, I wanna go shoot a merriam. I'm gonna go to a place where the mule deer have such a high value that nobody cares about turkeys.

Graham Cronin (43:00.681)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of like what we find in Wisconsin here too is like you're asking for deer permission. Probably going to be a hard no most of the time. Turkeys I'd give it like 50 50 like you might be able to sweet talk your way in there and especially like farmers. Right. I mean

They're not hunting turkeys, because that's kind of the prime busy season for them. They're getting planning, they're working on fields, they're not taking the time to go hunt these birds, and it's like, you can get your way in that way. And I think it's very similar to the whitetail muley debate in those states like the Dakotas, where it's, you know, like, okay, yeah, go for it. I'm not going to hunt them, but I'm going to hunt the mule deer later, so leave them alone.

Dan Johnson (43:18.231)
Yep. Yep.

Dan Johnson (43:34.441)
Right, right. And the my main farm that I've been hunting on for God knows how many years, I think it's like 17 now. I'm knocking on two thousand. It'll be 20 years in two thousand and twenty seven. excuse me. And so I got in on that farm because of turkey hunting and shed hunting. And then the next year I said, hey, well, I know you got shotgun hunters on there. Do you care if I bow hunt?

And their main concern was, you know, just kind of stay away from the other hunters that are out there. And I did. had very little interaction with them or conflict with them. And then I've got to know the other group of guys who hunt on that property. it's it worked out great. And so, you know, I still think there's an opportunity for guys to get their feet in the door with a lesser value species, so to speak. And that could potentially lead into something great, like what I kind of ran into.

Graham Cronin (44:33.338)
Absolutely and I mean to your point too kind of throwing in the I'm only gonna be bow hunting. I think that can be a huge yep that can absolutely seal it for you because especially around here like there are some people that aren't too keen on hunting or maybe they have family that comes and just hunts the gun. Weak here and it's like if you can say like hey I'm only gonna bow hunt here's why I'm doing it here's the benefit of it I'm putting organic food on my family's plate.

Dan Johnson (44:39.616)
Yep, that's still the deal.

Graham Cronin (44:59.234)
Like sometimes that can kind of interest people like, okay, you're doing it for the right reasons, you know? But yeah, just knowing that, hey, both season only, I'll be out of here the week that your family's here. Like that can be a huge, huge help for your case when you're bleeding to people.

Dan Johnson (45:13.008)
Yeah, I just feel like. Antlers now are everybody like it went from fun shotgun seasons like fun drives and fun, you know, like Wisconsin obviously has, in my opinion, one of the top top three cultures type states, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, when it comes to culture and how involved hunting is in the culture of those states that

that's Wisconsin's a top three state. But even in those scenarios, I think the party hunting, the hunting camp type scenario is based off of just what I've talked with people about is slowly fading away because quality deer, like people want, even gun hunters want big antler deer. And the only way to get them is not shoot four corners.

Graham Cronin (46:11.543)
Yep. Yeah, I would say that's true for the most part and kind of one of the things that I had to take a step back and look at myself for, because it's like, why am I doing this? Why am I out hunting? So like, I want to have fun.

So, know, whether that's, you know, shooting a big buck, which obviously is a lot of fun, but still, you know, taking the opportunities to go out there and have fun. And, you know, maybe it's not the buck yet. Yeah, we're looking forward, but especially during gun season here, like there are so many hunters and I'd say there are definitely pockets of the state where that tradition that you mentioned is still going strong. Like I mentioned, I go up north to my family's place. My uncle has some land and like the deer hunting is good, but I mean, it's not what it is down here. Like if I wanted to shoot a gun buck.

opening weekend, I'd probably stay home and go to some of these properties I've got access to down here. But it's like you go up there because you're seeing, you know, your uncles, your cousins, you know, your grandpa's that you'd never see except for, know, maybe that one time of the year. Right. And you sit around and you tell the same stories you told last year, you bullshit a little bit, you have some drinks, you wake up, you go hunting and have fun with it.

But to your point, think people do want to shoot big bucks. like, I've even seen it with some family members of getting some younger folks out there, like cousins and whatnot. And they'll have a small buck run by. They've never shot a deer before. And I'm like, why didn't you shoot that? And they're like, I'm for a big buck. I'm like, don't do that. That's a great first buck. Like, shoot that buck. But yeah, so I think there's an element to it. And I think...

Dan Johnson (47:28.194)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Johnson (47:35.399)
Yeah, exactly.

Graham Cronin (47:41.445)
you're starting to see some people kind of come back into that mantra. And it's something that I like to beat like, shoot what makes you happy, right? If it walks by and you get excited, go for it, you know? But yeah, it's something that I definitely think is a problem and definitely contributing to some of those like heavy numbers, because like those same people aren't shooting does either, right? They're waiting for the big buck. And then so it's like, you get your numbers way out of whack then. And so that's it's definitely something to be cognizant of when you're out hunting for sure.

Dan Johnson (48:01.342)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (48:09.265)
Yeah, yeah, so you guys live about how far do you live from Madison?

Graham Cronin (48:14.941)
So we're about like 30 minutes west of Madison -ish.

Dan Johnson (48:17.455)
Okay, all right. So Madison is a big city center. It's a higher population area within the state. Is it hard?

Dan Johnson (48:29.607)
Does that population affect the surrounding area as far as hunter numbers are concerned, as far as small, is it smaller parcels? Do you ever run into a scenario where someone who's works in the city but lives in the country and that, I don't want to say liberal ideology, but the non -hunting ideology flows over into that range away from the city?

Graham Cronin (48:58.648)
For sure, yeah, I would say like you could almost look at Madison as like a hub and draw like a 30 minute circle around it, you know, in any direction. And a lot of those people are either commuting or, you know, they moved to that area because they like Madison. And so, you know, whether that's they believe in hunting or not, you do see that. And I think.

Over the past couple years, like you've definitely seen more people want to get land. They want to, know, whether it's for recreational activities, whether it's for, know, hey, I want to have my own garden or hey, I just want to be outside of the city in case, you know, shit gets weird and I got my own place where I can be. So to your point, I definitely see, think you see that a little bit. But then you also have the effects of you got this big city like Madison and there's all these public pieces around it and surrounding areas and all those people spread out and go to those areas. So.

The places around here can get hit pretty hard. Just knowing the vast number of hunters that come out of Madison.

Dan Johnson (49:52.673)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's funny. Like you talk about those guys who are urban hunters, maybe around Chicago or around, you know, obviously any big city in the Midwest or or Southeast, you know, the Seek One guys have been, you know, doing that thing for a while. There's other guys who have been doing that thing for a while. And they're obviously hunting extremely small parcels,

You gotta dodge those straight up antis who are just like, get away from me, this is murder or whatever the case is.

Graham Cronin (50:31.303)
Yeah, and I think if you have that person, it's a non -starter, your best bet is to walk away peacefully and you're not gonna change their mind. But I think there is this movement out there of people that respect it for the aspect of organic meat. And I think that's where we've seen a large number of new hunters, adult hunters getting into the spaces. They wanna know where their meat comes from.

Dan Johnson (50:37.995)
Yep. Yep.

Dan Johnson (50:49.697)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Graham Cronin (50:52.546)
And you know, especially bow hunting, you know, I think that's a lot easier for them because generally a lot of those like hardcore anti hunters are also anti gun. So if you position as a bow hunting, I mean, you can, you know, get into some of those small parcels where, you know, you tell them you're doing it for the right reason and you can kind of relate to them on that aspect. Like, Hey, I like to clean. I like to eat organic just like you. I like to know exactly where my meat is coming from, how it's prepared, how it's taken care of in the field.

So that's why I'm doing this. And I think you're seeing a lot more people at least open to it. Like the hardcore anti, you're not gonna get them ever, right? You're not gonna get that permission spot ever. But I think there's some people that you could definitely position yourself as, okay, he's doing it the right way, you know.

Dan Johnson (51:35.493)
Right, Yeah, man. And I just keep going back to every time I open up deer meat or I bought a half a cow, right? And I have that in my, we've been slowly eating on it since last summer. And you just look at the color of the beef, you look at the color of the deer meat, and then you compare it to something that you bought in the store, and you're just

If this is what real meat is supposed to look like and then you compare it to just the color and all the extra stuff that's added into it in your head, you're like, hmm, why, why am I, why am I eating this again? Right. Why am I eating this?

Graham Cronin (52:15.324)
Something ain't right. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I think that goes for anything. know, whether you're growing your own vegetables, whether you got chickens laying eggs, like if you've got your own chicken coop, like you can hold those eggs next to a carton you bought from the store and like, they're not gonna look the same. You know, whether it's the color, shape or anything, like it's easy to tell that, you know, there's stuff going on. So if you can know where your food's coming from, like I'm all for it.

Dan Johnson (52:22.328)
yeah.

Dan Johnson (52:31.769)
No. Yep.

Dan Johnson (52:40.101)
Yeah. Hey, would you be interested in starting a, what's that? What's that called where it's a conspiracy theory? Would you be interested in starting a food conspiracy theory podcast with me where we just go off the deep end about the food pyramid and how it's wrong and, just wear tinfoil hats.

Graham Cronin (53:01.812)
I'm in. I'm in. Yeah, I've got my tinfoil hat sitting over there so I can go grab it and we can get rolling. yeah, no, it's something that I've talked about quite a bit with folks. like, yeah, it's definitely something near and to me for sure.

Dan Johnson (53:05.695)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (53:14.188)
cool man. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and BSing with us for a little bit today. can't wait to drink some old fashions, some Wisconsin old fashions with you. Although at the Ambassador Summit, I did a couple your way and then I did a couple my way. All

Graham Cronin (53:26.06)
Ugh.

Graham Cronin (53:36.948)
Which is primarily the Brandy versus Bourbon, correct? Yep. Yep. And I am too. I am too. But yeah, the traditional Wisconsin one is with Brandy, but I'm with you. I'm a Bourbon guy. But yeah, if you're passing through this fall, you got an open invite, man. You let us know when you're going to be here and we'll get a reservation booked at a supper club. Yep.

Dan Johnson (53:39.633)
exactly i'm a bourbon i love the bourbon but when in rome

Dan Johnson (53:57.695)
There we go, there we go, the old Wisconsin Supper Club. Graham Mann, thank you very much and we'll talk to you when we talk to you.

Graham Cronin (54:05.174)
Sounds good, appreciate you, Dan. See ya.

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