Residents vs. Non-Residents

On this episode of the Nine Finger Chronicles, Adam Parr joins Dan to discuss their experiences with elk hunting in Colorado. They catch up on life and reminisce about past hunting trips. They also discuss the recent law change in Colorado that restricts non-residents from buying over-the-counter archery elk tags. The conversation explores the increase in hunting pressure from non-residents and the impact it has on the quality of the hunt for residents. Both Dan and Adam express their preference for waiting and hunting in draw units to ensure a more enjoyable and successful hunting experience. The conversation discusses the need to balance the quantity and quality of hunting experiences in Colorado. Adam and Dan explore the increasing number of non-resident hunters and the impact it has on resident hunters. They discuss the potential solutions, such as limiting non-resident tags and increasing tag prices for residents. The guys touch on the importance of funding conservation efforts through hunting revenue. They reflect on their own hunting experiences in Colorado and how the landscape has changed over the years.

Takeaways:

• The increase in hunting pressure from non-residents in Colorado has led to a decline in the quality of the hunt for residents.
• Residents are advocating for changes in the law to prioritize their hunting experiences and ensure a better quality hunt.
• Both Dan and Adam prefer waiting and hunting in draw units to avoid the overcrowding and enjoy a more enjoyable and successful hunting experience.
• The law change in Colorado restricts non-residents from buying over-the-counter archery elk tags, which aims to address the overcrowding issue.
• Residents believe that the law change will help improve the quality of the hunt for both residents and non-residents. Balancing the quantity and quality of hunting experiences is crucial in Colorado.
• Limiting non-resident tags and increasing tag prices for residents may be potential solutions.
• Funding conservation efforts through hunting revenue is important.
• The hosts reflect on the changing landscape of hunting in Colorado and the impact on their own experiences.

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Dan Johnson (00:01.536)
Ladies and gentlemen, this is like a little bit of a reunion type podcast because I got my buddy from Colorado, Adam Parr, back on the podcast. And like, I feel like, just like many of my friends, life has separated us. And, you know, just from work, kids, all that stuff. So, dude, I just want to say thank you very much for taking time out of your day.

Adam Parr (00:06.542)
Thank you.

Adam Parr (00:21.71)
For sure.

Dan Johnson (00:29.984)
to hop on the podcast and catch up with me.

Adam Parr (00:32.526)
Happy to do it, man. Yeah, it's been too long when you have kids and life gets busy and new things going on, man. I get it. But always glad to catch up with you, Dan. Looking forward to talking to you.

Dan Johnson (00:37.183)
yeah.

Dan Johnson (00:44.799)
Yep. Are you well on your way to being a real estate mogul out in Colorado?

Adam Parr (00:51.245)
Well, that's what I tell everybody, but it's really just a front for my OnlyFans page. So that's where the real money comes from. So, you know, it's been good business so far. Yeah, no, I'm happily self -employed now and really enjoying that and doing real estate, property management and maintenance, man. One day I'm, you know, picking out paint colors. Next I'm

Dan Johnson (00:54.399)
you

Dan Johnson (01:03.583)
That's great. That's great.

Adam Parr (01:20.621)
knee deep in a sewer line fix underneath the house or something. So it's never a lack of fun and diversity, but I really enjoy it. It's fun.

Dan Johnson (01:22.304)
Hahahaha!

Dan Johnson (01:29.761)
Yep, yep. So I believe the last time that I was in Colorado, I was able to hold this baby that was just, I mean, the tiniest thing. And so how old is your boy now?

Adam Parr (01:48.044)
Everett, he's four, he'll be five in August. And I think he's ready to hunt this year. He's been playing a ton with my elk bugle and cow calls. And man, that boy's, it's a running joke in my family of who's gonna kill the first elk, either my brother Phil or Everett. And Everett's four, so our money actually is on Everett. I think he's gonna kill the first elk, so we'll see. But no, it's fun to.

Dan Johnson (01:49.856)
Woo!

Dan Johnson (01:55.041)
yeah?

Yeah.

Dan Johnson (02:10.529)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Adam Parr (02:17.259)
Watch them grow up, man, and follow in your footsteps and see them enjoy the outdoors and camping. And we did some turkey hunting this spring and just get out shed hunting. And we did a little archery hunting last fall, if you want to call it that. But it's just fun to get them out there, man. It's a totally different world now.

Dan Johnson (02:21.936)
yeah.

Dan Johnson (02:32.737)
Yeah, yeah. Is he able to ask you questions? Like legit questions yet? Like, hey dad, tell me about, like, is he really into when you start talking about El Conning?

Adam Parr (02:51.643)
yeah, yeah, no, we watch a lot of YouTube and just to kind of see it more in action. But yeah, he asked the right questions and you know, what does this do? And you know, what sound is this? You know, different muse and different things like that and the calls and it's just cool to see, man. And I don't try to force it on him. It's just, you know, when you're around it naturally and just I'm so into it that

Dan Johnson (03:08.033)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (03:16.002)
Yep. Yep.

Adam Parr (03:18.155)
Of course, it's probably gonna happen, but I would never push him to do that, but it's just cool that he is. I'm really enjoying that.

Dan Johnson (03:21.922)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's one thing that I've, I have really, you've heard this, like everybody's heard the horror stories where it's like a dad who made them go hunting and made them do certain outdoor activities. And then they just were like, God, I don't like this. I hate it. Like, why are you making me sit in like below freezing temps or when it's wet outside or things like that. And right now I think I'm on a good path.

Adam Parr (03:36.683)
Right.

Dan Johnson (03:51.17)
because my kids are like really starting to ask the questions, when can I go hunting with you? And I almost, I don't wanna say I'm withholding it from them, but I am making sure that they are ready enough to enjoy the experience when I do take them out. And so at this time, it seems that I'm doing things right because they're asking a lot of questions. They wanna come with me every time I go and I'm -

really looking forward to like transitioning all of my stuff and energy to them. You know what I mean? So yeah.

Adam Parr (04:27.531)
Right, yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I think it's a fine balance that you wanna maintain because you don't wanna push them too hard, right? And then they kinda resent it or don't enjoy it. Or when daddy took me out, we had to sit in the cold and I didn't have snacks for three hours. You know, it just, you gotta watch that is what I've been seeing. So it's just a new chapter. And yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to the most is just like,

Dan Johnson (04:38.497)
Right.

Dan Johnson (04:44.673)
Hahaha

Adam Parr (04:57.227)
You know, I've been around the gauntlet a few times. I've killed a pile of deer and a few elk and it's ready to, I'm ready to kind of take that next phase. And that's just, just seeing Everett do the same thing and, and, bringing friends and family out and showing them it's, I get a more, more enjoyment out of that than, you know, doing it myself, honestly.

Dan Johnson (05:08.033)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (05:20.193)
Absolutely. Well, I will say this, that when I came to Colorado, you were one hell of an elk guy. And so if I would have had money back then, I would have definitely tipped you.

Adam Parr (05:27.019)
Yeah, thanks, man.

Hey, that invoice is still out there. It's probably just, you know, we're gaining some interest here, Dan. I'll tally up the new total. I'll send it.

Dan Johnson (05:35.65)
There you go. Love it. Okay. So, man, I've been kind of busy myself. How have the last, I don't know, four years been as far as elk hunting in Colorado for you?

Adam Parr (05:58.763)
I see four years. Well, I did a draw unit hunt back in 2021. And that was cool because that was right when I burned all my points and that was right when pandemic was really kind of sitting in. That's when you really started to see the influx of hunting and just the pressure on these over -the -counter units. And like when you came out, what was that? Was that 2019, 2018, something like that?

Dan Johnson (06:05.313)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (06:28.289)
Yeah, it was right before all that stuff broke out, yeah.

Adam Parr (06:31.371)
Yeah, yeah, I think it's 2018 and 19 when you came out. 2020, that's when kind of the floodgates started opening up and then progressively seemed like it got worse and more hunting pressure throughout the years forward. So it was nice to actually hunt in a draw unit, good draw unit. And so I killed a nice bull on that hunt, five by six. And that was just a cool one just because it was high elevation hunt.

Dan Johnson (06:34.433)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (06:51.617)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (06:56.161)
Nice.

Adam Parr (06:59.275)
you know, killed him at 12 ,000 feet. He was way up at basically tree line when I killed him. So that was pretty special. 23, I was building, I was doing a lot of remodeling and building out a rental unit. So I actually didn't even archery hunt in 20, 22, I think. I don't know, the years kind of blend together. Last couple of years, I haven't hunted a ton of elk.

Dan Johnson (07:03.457)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (07:20.097)
Okay.

Adam Parr (07:26.091)
last season, I actually had probably my best season ever as far as hunting, I killed two elk. So I got one with a bow and then one with a rifle. But I've actually been kind of privileged the last couple years, my cousin ended up buying a ranch with some partners. So I've been hunting there for archery, which has been cool. And then I've got another neighbor in town who I've become good friends with, he bought a ranch.

Dan Johnson (07:47.905)
Nice.

Adam Parr (07:54.123)
And so he lets me go out there and rifle hunt for a late season. So, you know, when you get older, when you don't have the time, like I used to be able to just get out and take the whole month, right, of archery or hunt archery and then pick a rifle season. It was just, it's kind of tough on public land, especially over the county units. So I've really kind of just enjoyed getting that quality back a little bit and.

Dan Johnson (08:04.769)
Yeah.

Adam Parr (08:18.635)
having a little bit of an edge with some private access. And it's not necessarily just hunting the private, it's sometimes just about the access that you get from the private to some of these public areas that make it kind of special and gives you that advantage. So yeah, that's how it's been and just been doing a little bit of whitetail hunting here and there, different states and still keeping at it. It's fun.

Dan Johnson (08:41.345)
Yeah, yeah, man, I will tell you this, man, some of them, like when we went up to that cabin, your buddy's cabin and we hunted out of that, man, that was like a dream come true for me. Just like, there was no electricity there, no running water, but it was, you got a bed at the end of the day and.

Adam Parr (08:49.067)
Mm -hmm.

Adam Parr (08:56.459)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (09:07.361)
The times that I came out there, man, I had so much fun, even though it was exhausting, like climbing that drainage all the way up to where they were at every single morning. We're going back, what was that? That time where it was me, you and Ryan, and then they came in behind us. Man, that was, exactly, exactly. And so,

Adam Parr (09:14.594)
Right?

Yeah.

Adam Parr (09:26.657)
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Caught us with our pants down that one. Yeah, lots of good memories.

Dan Johnson (09:36.545)
just the view and the views and most importantly taco del nar

Adam Parr (09:42.433)
Alright. Gotta have that. Alright.

Dan Johnson (09:44.705)
Dude, that place has got to have taco del nar. So, man, I got to get out there again. But it's going to become harder for residents. And that's why I am on here talking to you today. So recently, Colorado has just passed a new law that non -residents are not able to buy over -the -counter Elk tags anymore. They are all draw.

Like non -residents are all draw units. Now, I don't know what that means as far as, you know, because South Dakota turned into a draw state for deer and it's always been a draw, but you were guaranteed. Now states like Nebraska, South Dakota, it's getting harder to get these tags for non -residents. What is the vibe of elk hunting in Colorado?

from a resident's perspective right now.

Adam Parr (10:47.617)
Yeah, I mean, I guess I can't speak for everybody, but I mean, my own personal experiences, like I mentioned, you know, since the pandemic, that 2020 time period, I mean, it's been a significant increase in hunting pressure. I remember when I went out in 2020, I don't even think I was hunting. I just took Everett up and I just wanted to go out in the mountains. I mean, he was real little at that point. I mean, I think he was only like a year and a half old. And I just took him up just to...

drive into some of these areas where I'd never hunted but just kind of wanted to check it out. And we I talked to some guys on the road and camps and and things like that. And majority of them were from out of state non residents. And and in fact, some of them that year, you know, like Canada had closed down their borders, so they weren't doing any hunting. So actually, a few people I talked to that day actually were moose hunting or had moose trips booked for Canada and then

kind of last minute, they were like, well, what state can we go to that's close and has over the counter opportunities? And Colorado for a lot of people is that option. So it seems like it really has increased. Like we talked about the cabins when you used to come out and hunt. I mean, on any given kind of week during archery season, let's say, that's what I'm most familiar with, there might be one or two camps.

kind of below the cabins there, like on some of those county roads, as far as like people hunting. In 2021, I believe, yeah, 2021, there were 17 different camps just on that little stretch of road. And there's really not that, yeah, yeah, there's really not that, like, it's not a long stretch of road. I mean, there's only a few miles of road there in that section of the national forest. So to have that many people.

Dan Johnson (12:14.721)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (12:28.417)
No shit.

Adam Parr (12:42.145)
with camps and then you're not even factoring in maybe people that are driving in for the day or people that you just don't see, you know, set up. They might drive in on their four wheelers or drive in on their trucks and you know, but these are 17 different camps between, you know, that little section there and that's a huge increase from just a few years prior. So I mean, if that gives you, that's just what I know from my little area of hunting and doing the cabin rentals and things there. So I,

Dan Johnson (12:59.713)
yeah. Yeah.

Adam Parr (13:10.401)
If that doesn't kind of paint a picture, I mean, I can't speak for the whole state or different units or whatnot, but that's a very significant increase. I'm not a mathematician, but that's, we're in the thousands of percent increases as far as activity.

Dan Johnson (13:14.977)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (13:19.425)
No, no.

Dan Johnson (13:23.937)
Yeah. Well, and then you multiply that across the state. And I mentioned this earlier in another podcast where I said, I feel like we're going to start experiencing a resident revolution, meaning the experiences that residents are taking away from their state. And I'm going to say public land specifically.

are decreasing from like, what is your idea of a good hunt? And the residents, because they're there all the time, and they're the ones who have the shortest distance to drive and things like that. So they're able to hunt more on these pieces of public. Now, don't get me wrong, public land is for anybody and everybody. But when you're experienced,

Adam Parr (13:59.169)
Right.

Dan Johnson (14:20.065)
It's like, man, I used to see deer here all the time. Now I'm seeing less deer and more people. And then they start to, you know, I had a guy from out of state bump me or you're going into a trailhead or you're going into a parking lot and it's just like four or five cars in there from different states. I think it's easy for guys to point the finger and say, these are the people who are ruining my experience. Okay, take that however you wanna take it.

So usually when there's a law change like that, it's because there's been some bitching and complaining about certain things. Did you feel that the lo - Say that again?

Adam Parr (15:00.385)
Did I bitch and complain? So did I bitch and complain to the CPW out here and be like, those people like Dan Johnson. No.

Dan Johnson (15:07.137)
Yeah, I mean, no, but in all seriousness, man, usually the residents, they start bitching and then now we started to see these specific law changes in states. Were you hearing from the locals out in the areas that you haunted? Like, Jesus, man, there's non -residents all over the place. It's pissing me off.

Adam Parr (15:30.817)
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, some of my neighbors that haunt and just buddies that, you know, in my little neighborhood here that that haunt. Yeah, it's kind of all the same thing. And not necessarily that we like oppose it because like I'm a big, I know where all this comes from. It all boils down to a dollar, you know, and the money generated and, you know, in a lot of ways, I welcome the non -residents because I mean, they're

what's an elk tag now in Colorado, like 800 bucks for an over the counter, whether it's rifle or archery. I mean, that's a huge chunk of change. And, and, you know, that directly benefits conservation and wildlife. And so you can't, you can't like knock that night and I do my fair share of non resident hunting and, you know, other states, you know, I've hunted in your state, Iowa, I've hunted Kansas a number of times. And, and so, you know, you hear that sentiment kind of across the board.

Dan Johnson (16:15.395)
Yep.

Adam Parr (16:27.297)
So yeah, I mean, it's definitely, me personally, I've just over the last four years, I personally don't even really enjoy to go out in an over the counter unit anymore, just because I know the quality of my hunt has declined so much that I almost go out with the expectation that I'm not even gonna see anything, let alone.

Dan Johnson (16:48.515)
Yeah

Adam Parr (16:56.033)
have an opportunity to kill something. And that's not why I do it or necessarily expect that every time, but when you're out over the course of a week or maybe let's say three days for a weekend hunt, I would be hopeful that I would have some sort of encounter, right? Or maybe a shot opportunity. Maybe I don't, but maybe it was close, whatever, stuff that we experienced while you were out hunting. Anymore, it's just,

Dan Johnson (17:22.595)
Mm -hmm.

Adam Parr (17:26.081)
It's few and far between and I've gotten to the point myself personally where I would just rather save up for a draw unit. Maybe not a high point unit, maybe burn one or two points or something, but just eliminate that pressure. Because let's say a unit gives out 200 archery tags or 500 or a thousand even. I mean there could be...

So that's a thousand tags unit wide, right? And that's a huge acreage, that's millions of acres, let's say for a unit. But when you talk about an over -the -counter unit, there could be a thousand people in any given little area, potentially throughout an entire month of archery season, within maybe like a 20 -mile stretch. I don't know, I don't have the data, but you at least know it's capped at a certain point.

Dan Johnson (17:58.372)
Yeah.

Adam Parr (18:25.025)
and you can kind of, it's just one less variable to your hunt to make it more quality. I've just become under the notion that I would rather wait, even in my own state, I would rather wait two or three years to hunt somewhere and have a more enjoyable hunt than go hunt over the counter. And in the meantime, I'll go do other hunts. Maybe I'll do a mule deer hunt or do a, maybe just not archery hunt that year and just do a whitetail hunt in a different state.

You know, so I just, I, the notion I'm getting from people I talk to and my own personal experiences is really they just want the quality experience back. And it's hard to get that when there are just a lot of guys out there hunting and you're running into people constantly. No one has fun and eventually people will stop coming here, right? And then, then you have that effect of, okay, well, if people just think

Dan Johnson (18:55.364)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (19:06.468)
Right.

Adam Parr (19:23.859)
Colorado's complete shit and all I never see an elk I never get an opportunity Well, then they're probably not gonna spend their money here anyways They're probably gonna wait wait either for a draw unit like I'm doing or they're gonna go to a different state and do a draw unit there or maybe another over -the -counter opportunity so it's kind of a Vicious circle and it's a fine balance that you got to really watch so and correct me if I'm wrong I think it's just the it's just archery. They're talking about right for

Dan Johnson (19:50.693)
Yeah, so I didn't read up 100 % on that. All I know is that the title of this article that I just skimmed through was like non -residents.

have to draw units now, right?

Adam Parr (20:09.746)
Yeah, yeah, from what I've read, see, I'm trying to find something, I don't think Colorado Parks and Wildlife has put out an official statement yet. So I've looked on their website all over, I can't find an actual article. I've just seen what other like bowhunter .com or whatever posted an article on it. And what they're referencing specifically is just archery. From the statistics that were posted, they're saying that rifle seasons have...

Dan Johnson (20:30.724)
Yes.

Adam Parr (20:37.298)
or rifle tags have actually declined over the last 20 years. Whereas archery has actually increased in popularity. So they're selling more archery tags. And then there's like the factor of interference, you know, like rifle season, they're done breeding, they're done, you know, doing their thing. Whereas archery season, all that pressure does have a direct, you know, effect potentially, or does have an effect on the breeding season, you know.

Dan Johnson (21:03.108)
Yeah.

Adam Parr (21:05.937)
taking place right during the middle archery. So I think that's kind of the factors there, why they potentially are doing it. But I believe it's just archery. Did you find an article?

Dan Johnson (21:16.037)
Yes, I did. The article says, here's the title of it. The source is Outdoor Life. Colorado eliminates over -the -counter archery elk tags for non -residents. After complaints of overcrowding in more non -residents bow hunting elk than residents, the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission overwhelmingly voted to restrict out -of -state elk tags.

out of state elk tags, it looks like, okay. And then it gets into all the statistics. So the full article is on OutdoorLife .com. So it's just archery tags. And like many of these states now that are going there, we're starting to see residents start to bitch and complain that there is, which blows my mind a little bit because...

Correct me if I'm wrong, Colorado has a ton of public land.

Adam Parr (22:17.776)
ton of public land and we have the largest elk herd. I think it's like 250 ,000 elk, something like that.

Dan Johnson (22:20.58)
Yeah.

Yep, yep. I mean, it's huge. And so what's crazy is that even that, even like this very large amount of public land has become, from a residents perspective, overrun by non -residents every single hunting season. And man, I can see.

I can, I completely understand where these people are coming, like where residents are coming from. Now, I don't know if my thoughts on this are right or wrong, but I feel that if you live in a state, you should have the priority over a non -resident coming into that. Now, I don't necessarily know what that means. All I know is that like,

you have the voice in your state where you live and you pay your taxes, right? Over the fact that yes, a Colorado elk tank for a non -resident may be $800 or more, whatever the case is. Yeah, you're gonna spend gas money getting there, you're gonna buy food, you're gonna stimulate the economy in some way, shape or form, but that pales in comparison to all of the ways that a resident provides to their economy in...

in that. So yes, you're paying a higher ELK tag, but guess what a resident is doing? They're spending gas and rent and mortgage and all that money all year round in that state. And so I really do feel, I don't care what the scenario is, like I support residents wanting to change their laws to make their experiences better, right? If you want to, if you want like, why do you so many people go and move to Iowa? Like for white, for whitetails.

Adam Parr (23:58.093)
Right.

Adam Parr (24:14.092)
Right, the quality, it's the best.

Dan Johnson (24:16.292)
Quality, yeah, the quality of the hunt. And we have all of that under control. And so, and that's why it takes five years in the best parts to six years to the best parts in Iowa to get an archery tag. So, man, I'm just a huge advocate for resident, you know, and if that means I have to wait, it's what people don't understand. And I wanna hear your thoughts on this as well is,

It's just when you do get to go hunt Colorado or you do get to go hunt a non -resident, get a non -resident tag in another state, it's just gonna make that experience better for not only the resident, but for the non -resident as well. That's my thought process.

Adam Parr (25:03.275)
Yeah, no, I'm 100 % on the same page. I've been thinking that for years since I've noticed the increase in traffic, hence why I would rather hunt a draw unit or at least wait. I'm all about that quality. I've only got limited time throughout the year now. It's not like I can spend that whole month like I used to. So it's like if I'm gonna actually take that week off and go after it, I wanna at least have a...

Dan Johnson (25:15.812)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Adam Parr (25:31.851)
good sense that it will be a quality hunt, you know, and I'm willing to wait for that and I'm willing to pay for it too. You know, I mean, they have increased prices for non -resident. I think the archery tag is like 60 bucks now, but I mean, even if let's say it was $100, like I'm still gonna go. I would gladly pay $100 to go hunt an elk each year. I mean, yeah, is that maybe a little steep? I don't know, but if that's what it takes to help

Dan Johnson (25:34.82)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (25:48.356)
Yup.

Adam Parr (26:00.97)
increase the quality and the experience. And you know, and I think about like my son Everett, when he starts out hunting and, and let's say we're doing an over the counter, it's like, I don't I don't want him to get discouraged that we haven't seen an elk all week. And we've been grinding it out and getting up early and getting after it. And for some, that's, that's what happens. You don't even see an elk. And so yeah, it's all about that quality over quantity and that that balance of

Dan Johnson (26:04.612)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (26:19.844)
Mm -hmm.

Adam Parr (26:30.569)
of funds and you know the tag license sales and just trying to appease everybody and it's not an easy solution but I do think it is the right move for Colorado because it has gotten out of hand in my opinion and it's just not enjoyable for a lot of people and so we'll see where it goes. I'm not sure what they, how that's gonna

Dan Johnson (26:42.052)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (26:51.844)
Right. Right.

Adam Parr (27:00.073)
really roll out like if it's gonna be more like a, a limited or like a, a cap on certain, you know, like let's say for a unit, they're gonna have a certain amount of tags available and it's kind of more of like a, a first comes first serve basis, something like that. Or if it's just gonna be like, you know, points get involved. I wouldn't imagine it's gonna take points to draw these units going forward. Maybe you'll draw them second or third choice or, you know, pick them up on the leftover or the secondary draw.

Dan Johnson (27:15.076)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (27:24.036)
Yeah.

Adam Parr (27:29.544)
something like that, but whatever it entails, it's definitely gonna cut down on the people coming here and probably prevent a lot of that last minute stuff like, I didn't draw here, so okay, we can always go to Colorado, that's always the fail safe or this didn't work out or I had a weak pop open, what can we go do or I'm in this state and Colorado's close by, we can go hunt there. It's probably gonna crack down a lot on like,

Dan Johnson (27:47.556)
Yep.

Adam Parr (27:59.399)
unit bouncing, right? Like, cause there's a lot of people that come out and I was watching the YouTube video the other day of a guy and he went to like three or four different units in the state. And you can, you can do that right now. Cause there are so many over the counter units. You don't have to pick, pick a specific unit. So I think it's just gonna help in a number of ways. I still think there's gonna be.

Dan Johnson (28:00.9)
Mm -hmm.

Adam Parr (28:22.694)
a lot of opportunities to hunt in Colorado. I don't think they're going to completely close that down. And I think they're still, it's just going to force people, I think, to kind of like pick and choose and kind of prepare a little bit more, more in advance instead of like last minute, we're just going to go to Colorado. So I don't know. We'll see.

Dan Johnson (28:28.484)
Right.

Dan Johnson (28:39.684)
Yep, yep, okay, so I'm pulling up a graph right here. And the cool thing about this graph, okay, is right around 2005 to, I'm gonna say between 2005 and 2007 -ish, the number of resident and non -residents were exactly the same, okay, for Colorado.

Then, so this is over -the -counter Archery Elk license sales by residency, 2001 to 2023. So we're right around 2007, it was completely equal. Then actually, residents all the way up until 2000 and I'm gonna say 17 out.

There was a dip by non -residents from 2007 to about 2012. And then that's somewhere around 2012 is when more non -residents started. And then 2015, residents started to drop while non -residents started to increase more. And then, yeah. And so then in 2020 was an

Adam Parr (29:59.333)
wow.

Dan Johnson (30:05.38)
like an equal point where they started to, where they were equal again in 2020 with residents trending down and non -residents trending up with about roughly the same number of licensed sales.

Dan Johnson (30:28.804)
for both, okay. Now, here's what kind of is funny to me. Since 2020 or 2020, 2021, both license sales have trended down, right? So it's funny to me when, cause on this graph, it shows residents, non -residents and then the total graph.

Since 2019, which was the peak of licensed sales in the state of Colorado for non -resident over the county archery tags, everything's been trending down. So it's almost like a delayed response, right? So people have been frustrated for a while now, but now we're seeing a big trend down.

Adam Parr (31:13.379)
Hmm.

Dan Johnson (31:26.5)
by probably five to 7 ,000 total, like total license sales over the course, if any of this is making sense. And so the trend is going down as far as the number of licenses that are being sold every year. But it's funny how now they're taking, they're changing it. When it like, to me, it looks like it should have been changed somewhere around 2019.

Adam Parr (31:37.379)
Yeah.

Adam Parr (31:56.737)
Right, right, yeah. Well, it's like you don't know you're in a recession until after the fact, right? It's probably one of those things where you can't really make a decision at that time. You kinda gotta let the trends play out over the years. Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, from the articles I saw, they stated that there was over a 20 -year trend, that there was a really, I don't know how much of an increase, but there were an increase of archery.

Dan Johnson (32:01.572)
Yep. Yep.

Dan Johnson (32:18.692)
Mm -hmm.

Adam Parr (32:26.369)
licenses sold. I think both resident and not resident whereas like rifle is is is not and you know what the other factors that play like the rut and things like that. That's interesting though I could also see like maybe other factors that play like you know maybe there's less people out there hunting but we've just gotten a lot more efficient at being in the backcountry. You can stay out there longer you got a lot more like work remote.

you know, now where people have a lot more flexibility with their jobs or time off and you know, so maybe they're just spending more time in the field, whereas previously they weren't or couldn't. So there might be some other factors that play like that, that, you know, just even though licenses are down as far as sales numbers, there could be just people are out there doing it more and with social media and videos, the popularity has grown so much that

people are just out there getting after it. So, I don't know, maybe it's something like that.

Dan Johnson (33:28.518)
Yeah. Yeah. And so from a revenue standpoint, here's a blurb from this article. Colorado Parks and Wildlife guessed that limiting non -resident over -the -counter elk archery licenses by 10 % would reduce its revenue by almost $2 million. Cutting them by 25 % would reduce revenue by more than $6 million. Okay.

Adam Parr (33:56.768)
Wow.

Dan Johnson (33:57.703)
But they said that's really because they can't accurately predict like the response that hunters, non -resident hunters are going to have to this change, what that's gonna, so they really can't accurately determine what the revenue loss will be. But this is where I have my own thoughts about Iowa, right? And I know a lot of it depends on income and you know,

Like I feel like hunting, especially in Iowa where there's limited tags, excuse me, there's limited access. Like in certain States like that, like Iowa, it is slowly becoming, you know, what some people might say is a rich man's sport. However, I pay $28 .50 for one of the most coveted whitetail deer buck tags.

archery tags in the entire United States. For me, I look at that and I go, man, I feel like I should be paying more for that tag as a resident, especially if I am also saying I want to limit the amount of non -residents that can come into my state and hunt and some other rules and regulations. So how much are you paying for an ELP tag in

in Colorado right now and over the, or like a resident archery tag. How much are you paying for that?

Adam Parr (35:32.54)
Yeah, I think it's like somewhere around 60 bucks, maybe 62. I think it used to be like 50 just a few years ago. So I mean, it's went up a little bit, but I'm in the same boat. Like I think it, if it was a hundred, I'd still go. If it was 200, I'd still go, you know, I mean, and to your point, I mean, I applied for Iowa this fall. I thought for sure we were going to get it. We had five points and didn't draw and

Dan Johnson (35:36.07)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (35:49.83)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (36:00.966)
Mm -hmm.

Adam Parr (36:02.716)
So I mean, I'm gonna have over $1 ,000 into Iowa before I even show up. I mean, when the preference points are like 60 some bucks now and you got six of those and the tag is what like 600 bucks or something like that. I mean, you're over a grand before you even step foot in the state. So I do think that there will have to be some sort of like, you know,

moving that gap a little closer together to make up for that revenue loss. Because there will be some of that and that might take a few years to shake out and see what the data holds. But I think there will be that means an increase and I think most people would be for it. I mean, if you really enjoy hunting and if you really enjoy archery season, you'll pay that extra 40 bucks or 20 bucks or whatever it is, in the name of increasing the

Dan Johnson (36:51.59)
Mm -hmm

Adam Parr (37:01.274)
the quality and then, you know, the money staying the same for conservation and keeping this thing going that we all love. So.

Dan Johnson (37:07.654)
Yep, yep, absolutely. And that's the same thing. I think there is a sacrifice that needs to be had by somebody. Whenever you make a change, there's sacrifice. Someone is going to sacrifice. And so I feel like if you are very vocal about keeping non -residents out of your state, because ultimately that's what's happening, right? It's like, we want to reduce the number of non -residents coming to our state.

so that the resident can have a better hunting experience. So if you want a better hunting experience, I feel, this is my thoughts, is that maybe you should buck up on the revenue side and pay more for that experience, right? I mean, that's usually how it works. If you wanna live in a nicer house, you gotta pay more money for a nicer house. If you wanna go on a better vacation, you gotta pay more money for a better vacation. And I know now,

Adam Parr (37:52.858)
Right, I agree.

Dan Johnson (38:06.15)
It's a little like that may sound insensitive because we're talking about a natural resource here and an activity that is supposed to be for everyone, no matter what your income level is. But man, $28 for an Iowa buck tag for a resident, that just seems dirt cheap to me.

Adam Parr (38:28.216)
Yeah, when I have to pay 1000, you know, to hunt that same area, it just seems like it'd be maybe a little more to bring that that gap together. Yeah, no, I, I agree. There's, there's got to be a give somewhere. And fortunately, unfortunately, it all boils down to the almighty dollar. And that's what that's what keeps all this, this role and whether you like it or not, those dollars need to be there in order to fund what we do and you know, protect that wildlife and

Dan Johnson (38:31.237)
Exactly.

Dan Johnson (38:35.717)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dan Johnson (38:46.661)
Yeah.

Adam Parr (38:58.552)
and keep it growing, you know, for years to come.

Dan Johnson (38:58.565)
Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you a question. And this is about the guy. Like I always run into a handful of these guys. I don't consider myself a meat hunter. However, I do use the meat from the deer that I, right. I cook it and I consume it. Do you think it's fair? Like in today's world, when someone says, hey man, I use this, I use like,

I don't want you to raise the price on me because essentially it's raising the price on my food bill every year. And then I look at that and I'm like, okay, you can get 60 pounds of meat off of, I'm just gonna guess 60 pounds of meat off of a deer in Iowa, depending on how big they are, maybe a little less, 40 to 60 pounds, big bucks gets you more. But then you take that divided by the price of the tag and you're talking.

Adam Parr (39:55.863)
28 bucks, 50 cents a pound. Right.

Dan Johnson (39:57.092)
Yeah, 28 bucks. Dude, that's exactly something like that. And so, and then in Colorado, it's probably something similar, like on a cow elk, on a medium sized cow elk, how many pounds of meat are you pulling off?

Adam Parr (40:12.503)
Yeah, like medium size anywhere from like 150 to 180. You know, you shoot a big cow, you're over two and a big bowl, you can be north of that for sure. So depending on how you process it and whatnot. But yeah, I mean, it's, I think, I mean, it's a very nominal, like, increase, you know, when you factor that in for food, but you know, that will be a complaint, I'm sure. I mean, as far as, you know, that potentially

Dan Johnson (40:19.684)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (40:32.356)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Adam Parr (40:40.151)
you know, increasing the tag costs and everything. So I mean, I get it. I mean, not everyone's in the same situation. And, you know, they do it strictly for me. But I mean, unfortunately, what what hasn't gone up in the last, you know, four years, I mean, everything has gone up. And, you know, that's the the state we live in right now. We'll see where it ends or where it tops out. But there's got to be a push and pull to everything.

Dan Johnson (40:53.604)
Right.

Dan Johnson (41:04.55)
Yeah, that would be one survey that I would be very interested in listening to. The percentage of residents that would want like, hey, listen, I'm willing to pay more for my elk tag or I'm willing to pay more for whatever tag it is. Like up into a certain point, like would you be willing to pay $50 for a deer tag in Iowa for a archery tag?

or a shotgun tag or something like that. Would you be willing to do that? And just see, like, I don't feel like, I don't feel like it would change that much. Like, especially in any sex tag. Like, you keep, if you're serious about meat hunting, then we can keep the doe tags exactly where they're at. But if you also want to shoot that big buck, then maybe that should be.

Because why do people come to Iowa for big antlers? Exactly. Why do I do what I do in Iowa for big mature bucks? Right? And so, I don't know. I would love to just to gather more information from residents of the state of Iowa or Colorado or wherever, and just try to figure out like, how much more are you willing to pay to keep the same experience

Adam Parr (42:02.071)
Right.

Adam Parr (42:05.687)
for that big deer, yeah, for sure.

Dan Johnson (42:31.013)
or for Colorado in this case, to now change the experience potentially for non -residents. So I don't know, just something I've been thinking about lately.

Adam Parr (42:37.879)
Right? Right.

Yeah, yeah, no, there's a lot of pieces to it. I mean, I've seen even units, you know, we're over the last three, four or five years where the unit itself, it's it's over the counter, but you can only hunt that one unit, right? Like you can't just bounce around every, every unit in this that's over the counter in the state. And there's like, I don't know, 30 or 40 or there's a lot. So

Dan Johnson (42:59.079)
Right.

Adam Parr (43:10.487)
you know, even myself as a resident, I would be willing to just, okay, pick your unit, right? And just hunt there. And that might, you know, I don't know how much people bounce around. I mean, I hunt maybe two or three different units in my little area down here that are over the counter. And that might help too, you know, in the future if there still is maybe a problem with where people feel like there is, you know, an overcrowding or the quality's not there. Like, I think there's solutions to how

Dan Johnson (43:15.558)
Yep.

Adam Parr (43:40.311)
you know, we can go about it or how it shakes out, but yeah, there's, there's a, there's, there's a lot to it. Unfortunately, it's not an easy, easy solution, but I, there's, there's a number of things at stake here for sure.

Dan Johnson (43:50.438)
No, no.

Dan Johnson (43:55.398)
Yeah, because I definitely feel like a hypocrite when I say things like, yeah, hunting is becoming a rich man's sport, but then also talking out of the other side of my mouth saying, you know, residents should pay more money for their tags. Right. And so I don't know, you know, that's in Iowa for a deer tag now in, well, I mean, shit, man, $60 for a bull tag for archery tag. Like that just seems kind of kind of

Adam Parr (44:09.047)
Yeah, right.

Dan Johnson (44:25.095)
very affordable to me. I don't want to say cheap, but affordable. But then again, like Iowa is way easier to hunt than Colorado, right? So, I got to spend a hundred dollars and then I have to go hike to 12 ,000 feet because there's so much pressure. Like I can't compare those two experiences.

Adam Parr (44:26.903)
Yeah.

Adam Parr (44:35.511)
Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Adam Parr (44:44.087)
Right, right, right. Yeah, no, it's a little different. But yeah, like even what I stated earlier, like me personally, I can't speak for everybody else. Like I'm at the point or was at the point where I'm willing to take a couple years off and not even hunt these over -the -counter units in my own state, in my own backyard to have that better quality experience and just wait for a draw unit.

Dan Johnson (45:04.358)
Yeah.

Adam Parr (45:13.687)
I mean, that's what it boils down to for me. I want that quality hunt and I think a lot of people feel the same way. And so if I'm at the point where I don't even care to hunt in my own little area here where I live, I don't, I mean, if that paints a picture in itself, I mean, I'm willing to sacrifice actually my hunting time and go do something else or, you know, hunt a different.

species or go to a different state or I'm still gonna hunt, you know, but it's not gonna be in my own backyard. Because I want that quality experience. I want I want to see elk. I want to have that opportunity. I don't want to run into people all the time. And I'm not opposed to that. I mean, we need that we need the money, right? So I expect to see people I just I also expect to see elk or have have some opportunities and it's trending, you know, a lot harder.

Dan Johnson (45:43.334)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (45:57.638)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (46:06.374)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Adam Parr (46:11.543)
You know, I used to be like I could vouch and you know, hey, Dan, come out and hunt, man. It's a blast. And that's how it was. I mean, it was actually pretty, pretty good experience. You have those opportunities. But since 2020, 21, it's, I can't even recommend and vouch and tell my friends or my brother to really spend the money and come out here anymore. Because it's just, I don't think I personally don't think it's worth it. Save up for your

save up for your draw tag and hunt here in five years or something or get a draw tag that only is a couple points and at least you kind of limit that experience. That's just my opinion though.

Dan Johnson (46:51.045)
What year did you move out to Colorado?

Adam Parr (46:54.103)
15, 2015, so I'm coming up on a decade. I didn't hunt that first year, because I got out in June, and I just didn't, I had a Kansas or something tag that fall, and so I just wasn't ready to hunt, plus I'd still be paying the non -resident prices back then, so I actually didn't hunt that first year. So my first year hunting was 16.

Dan Johnson (46:55.429)
15. Okay.

Dan Johnson (47:11.077)
Right.

Dan Johnson (47:15.909)
Gotcha. Okay, so 16, was that like a really good year for you as far as the experience? I know it was like one of your first years as a resident in Colorado, but were you seeing elk like before, like those years before the pandemic, before like even when I was coming out in 1918, 1919, was the experience there those years?

Adam Parr (47:42.519)
yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. I mean, it was, it was damn good hunting. I mean, I, I felt confident that every time I went out, I would at least see something. I don't know if I'd have a opportunity, but if you just pick a week, I mean, that first week that I ever really hunted, I wounded one on the third day and then I ended up killing that big six by seven on the last day on the fifth day. And I mean, that's,

kind of unheard of now. I mean, at six, 17 was I didn't kill nothing in 17, but I tell everybody about that year. It was like the best year you could ever had without actually killing something. I mean, I had so many opportunities. I missed bulls. I was full draw on a couple of different bulls, you know, over this is over the course of the whole month, you know, hunting two or three days and then I'd take a week off and, and, and do it. But I mean, it was just those, those experiences were magical and

Dan Johnson (48:24.935)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (48:30.567)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (48:37.191)
Bye.

Adam Parr (48:42.167)
you didn't really have to worry about I ran into people on like the road and the trailhead. But not not in the once you were off away from the road like you didn't see anybody like there was there was no one around. I mean, you can vouch for that even in 2018. I mean, I don't I don't really remember us even running into anybody. While we're other than being on the road. But I mean, we didn't run into anybody in the backcountry hunting.

Dan Johnson (48:54.855)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (48:58.311)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (49:03.111)
No, the road, yeah.

No, I don't even think, I can't remember running into any other hunters in Colorado. I mean, even that one guy who was camping on the road, he was just camping. He wasn't hunting. So, and I think, well, I think.

Adam Parr (49:19.031)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (49:25.031)
I think on that road right before that one road right before it came private, there was a group, but I never saw them. I just saw their cars.

Adam Parr (49:30.6)
Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, there's always one or two camps in there or used to be and yeah, 2018 was another good year when you guys came out 19. I didn't do a lot of hunting in 19 just because Everett was born and you know, new dad responsibilities there but yeah, I mean, and then it's just like, it was like, it was like, I wasn't saying it was like,

Dan Johnson (49:41.863)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Johnson (49:47.752)
Yeah. Yep.

Adam Parr (49:56.712)
zero to 60 in just 2020, but like 2020 was a big jump. And then you're like, okay, maybe it'll shake out a little bit and things will go back to normal. And then 2021, it felt like there was another big jump of just pressure and people. And then, you know, the popularity of, you know, with the pandemic, everybody again had more time. They wanted to be outdoors. You couldn't do different things. And then, you know, and then there's this whole movement of knowing where your meat comes from and things like that. And then, you know, social media and just,

Dan Johnson (50:18.087)
Mm -hmm.

Adam Parr (50:26.568)
The internet just, you know, we've become better hunters and more efficient. So there's just, you factor all that together and you can kind of see why there has to be some sort of change or limit on this stuff. So it makes sense to me.

Dan Johnson (50:43.21)
Yeah. Nope. Absolutely. Yep. I get it. 100 % man. Well, great conversation, Adam. Man, I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to do this. Give your boy a high four from me. And I will, yeah, exactly. And man, I hope I'm out to Colorado again sometime. Even if it's just for a vacation, we've got to meet up and.

Adam Parr (50:54.536)
Anytime, brother.

I'll use the other hand

Dan Johnson (51:11.751)
go do another steak dinner somewhere.

Adam Parr (51:13.382)
Yeah, yeah, you're welcome anytime man. Come back out. We'll get you on some elk. We'll get you that first elk. We'll try hard and maybe it'll get a little easier here in the next couple years if they do limit some of this stuff. We'll see.

Dan Johnson (51:19.207)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (51:23.687)
Yeah, maybe. Maybe, maybe. All right, man. Hey, I appreciate your time.

Adam Parr (51:29.542)
Always a pleasure. Thanks, Dan.

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