In this week’s No Lowballers podcast by GoWild presented by GunBroker.com, we’re talking with Mike Helms from Smith & Wesson about the history of the company and how it became the company it is today. We start out talking with Mike on the shadowy history of when Smith & Wesson was originally founded. A few different dates float around, but Mike gives us a good estimate on when he believes the company actually started.
Next up, Mike dives into the Smith & Wesson Model 1. We talk all about how it jump started the company into loads of success basically unheard of in the time period. Mike shows us an amazing example of an EARLY Model 1…you won’t even believe how low the serial number is on it!
We swap over to talk about early top-breaks by Smith & Wesson. Mike brought an awesome .38 single action example, that’s actually the first ever .38 caliber Smith & Wesson ever created. Nicknamed the Baby Russian because of its resemblance to the larger Model 3 Russian, the medium-framed S&W .38’s biggest difference to its big brother is a spur trigger compared to the traditional trigger on the Model 3. The Smith & Wesson .38 came equipped with an automatic extractor, with many arguing that this firearm is some of Smith & Wesson’s finest manufacturing ever.
After the top-breaks we get into hand-ejectors, which in layman’s terms is a regular revolver. Logan goes over an example of one in the Smith & Wesson Model 1896. This Model 1896 is unique because it doesn’t have a cylinder release button on the side, but instead has a pin you pull on the front of it. Mike goes into how the Model 1896 regressed in a sense, going from an automatic extractor to a hand-ejector. Logan and Allen talk about examples of the 1896 and other Smith & Wesson firearms that are listed on GunBroker.com and what you can expect to spend on examples of some of these.
Closing out, Mike shows us an example of a 2nd Issue Model 1, “The Fancy Gun." Not sure exactly where this example came from, it was shipped from the factory either to the mayor of Springfield, Emerson White, as a gift or if it was sold to Emerson White and he gave it to someone else as a gift. Mike also gives us a rundown of joining Smith & Wesson’s Collector Association and how they try to welcome everyone no matter what sort of collecting you’re into!
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[00:00:00] Hi everyone, welcome to the No Low Ballers podcast. I'm Logan Metish of High Caliber History, your host, and I am joined around the table today with a great array of folks. We have Dan from Go Wild, we have Alan from GunBroker. com, and we have Mike Helms, who is the Secretary Treasurer of the Smith Wesson Historical Foundation, as well as a board member of the Smith Wesson Collectors Association, of which I am also a member and this is a very special day because we're talking early Smith and Wesson history.
Mike, thanks for joining us today on the show. My pleasure. Happy to be here. Good deal. So let's start off very early and let's talk about. Company history and a little bit of the controversy over when the company actually began, because they claim one [00:01:00] thing and you and I, as historians, we see it a little different.
Yeah. In some of the marketing materials, 1852, I have seen 1854, and in some of the marketing materials, you'll see 1856. And they're actually all correct, right? It depends on which Smith and Wesson we're talking about. So we actually don't know exactly when Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson first got together, we think it was around 1852.
And we're pretty sure that's when the first sort of partnership was formed, when these guys were working together. So that's where the 1852 date comes from. In 1854, the first Smith and Wesson partnership was actually incorporated that was to produce the volcanic magazine pistol. And that gun was actually a flop.
It didn't work very well. The rocket ball ammunition was not reliable. And stacking a bunch of those rocket balls where you have a pointy bullet up against the primer of the next bullet. And they were literally bullets because there was, of course, there was no cartridge casing. The charge was in the base of the bullet.
But stacking those on top of one another in a magazine [00:02:00] just was not a good idea. So there was a lot of problems with the Volcanic. But the first partnership was in 1854, of course, the original Smith and Wesson then became the Volcanic Repeating Arms Company in 1856. And then that went on to become Winchester, went all over Winchester because a shirt maker decided to invest in a gun company.
We not quite sure why, but it makes perfect sense, makes complete sense, but he got involved. And that did eventually become a very successful company. But Smith and Wesson were long out of it at that point. They left the partnership, it was either in 1855 or 1856 and they had some very different ideas about guns to produce.
Essentially they took the Flaubert cartridge which had been developed in France, which we now know as the Rimfire, and they took the revolver, and of course Colt's patent was expiring in 1856, Colt was working really hard to try to renew that, but he was not able to renew that patent, and Smith and Wesson formed their next partnership in 1856.
To produce what became the model one revolver. And that's the Smith and Wesson that we know today. So all of those dates are correct. It just depends on [00:03:00] which Smith and Wesson are we talking about, and are we talking about the company or just the partnership in general? So someone says, so was Smith and Wesson founded in 1852?
You're like short answer. Yes. With an if long answered no with a, but this, and this is why I love about this podcast. I just learned something today because I was under the impression that it was because Horace Grant had a fake ID for Mardi Gras and that's what threw everything off. No, that was D. B.
Wesson. He's the one who had the fake ID. Yeah. So you learn something every day. You were close. I think Horace was the upstanding guy. He was like, he was the adult in the room. I think D. B. Wesson was more the kind of character. Yeah. I could see that. But obviously the partnership worked. Things went very well for them.
And after, obviously, with the company coming out and starting at that point in time, they've got The Civil War ramping up, of course, they wouldn't have known that then, when the company starts but by the time the war ends Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson in 1865 have personal incomes of 163, 000 each.
They are the only two people in the entire state of Massachusetts to have six figure incomes. [00:04:00] 163, 000 is nothing to, snub your nose at today, but my God, in 1865, that is a. Boatload of cash. That was a boatload. Yeah, and they built that all on the back of the model one, right?
Yeah. Yeah, the model one was Until 1860. I think it was 1861 when the model 2 came out that was the gun that they produced was the model one. Little seven shot revolver in in 22 rimfire, black powder. And you brought with you something very special today. We've all, before we hit record, everyone was giddy about it.
There was lots of pictures and all sorts of stuff. So you have very special model one with us. Mike, tell us about this model one. Yeah. So this this is Smith and Wesson model one. It's a first issue gun, which means it was one of the first 12, 000 that were made before they had built their. Big factory on Stockbridge Street.
It's a first variant gun, which mean there was six engineering variations of the first issue. So this is a model one first issue, first variant, one, one, one. And it's a, yeah, it's a one, one, one. And it's serial number five, which actually makes it the earliest [00:05:00] known Smith and Wesson revolver in existence, right?
Serial number five. Wow. And so what are there factory records for this gun or was that stuff lost? Do we have a ballpark as to when this gun actually dates to? So we know that this was one of, so we think there was one gun made in 1856. We think that would be serial number one.
They didn't really note a serial number at that point. So I should say the company was incorporated in 18, November of 1856. We know that there was one gun at that point because one of the first entries in their ledger book was paying themselves back for the cost of producing that prototype. We know that in 1857 there was four more guns made.
So presumably this was one of those guns because it's serial number five. Sure. And through process of elimination, we're pretty sure that this was one of two guns that went to another company called the American Machine Works. Which was a machine tool company in Springfield, and if you're a Civil War collector and you have a sharps Smith carbine, you know that some of the Smith carbines were made at the American Machine Works. So this was the same company, and we're pretty sure that this was one of two, what we would call [00:06:00] tool room prototypes, that were sent to the American Machine Works. to have tooling made to make Smith and Wesson model one.
So that literally does make it a production prototype for a quarter of a million guns that came after that. So that's what we would in the modern day call the first article production. Yes. Yeah. And and the interesting thing specifically about that is that this gun has some different design features that you don't see on later model ones.
Particularly with that cylinder is interesting. Yeah, the cylinder is the big mystery on that gun. It's got this it's got this almost barleycorn edge around the base of the cylinder. And if you take it apart that's actually a separate piece. And I've speculated that this might've been an early experiment in some sort of automatic extractor.
It does follow the pattern of the talk break extractors that came a little bit later. The experiment really didn't work the way they, the way I think what happened with this was somebody started machining the barrel or the cylinder. They drilled it and then they were cutting a flat into it and the way they cut It was just an engineering [00:07:00] mistake.
I think somebody went. Oh, this isn't going to work and then there was this question of well, we got to get this gun out the door because these guys were living hand to mouth at this point. One of the neat things with the Smith and Wesson that we have now, the company now is when it was founded, they were not working with a wealthy New York capitalist the way they were with the volcanic.
So I think they had gotten to the point with capitalists where they, and what we would now call like a venture capitalist where they didn't want somebody else at the table telling them what to do. They want to complete. creative control over the manufacturing. So you know, these guys were just working from their savings and every gun they made, they had to sell and get that money back that they could keep doing their research and development with.
So I think what probably happened with this gun was they were doing some experimenting with it. They had the oh moment where We think we've goofed they ended up just putting a little pin between those two pieces to keep them indexed together and said, you know what? We're going to sell the gun.
We're going to get it out of here. Oh, let's use that one as the tool. We're in prototypes. It's goofed up. Anyways, we can just tell them to ignore that part. And And move on. So I think for them, it was probably a bit of an oh moment, but [00:08:00] it's a neat glimpse into the past for us. We, I guess the work could have been done after it left the factory.
We just don't know. But it's that back of the cylinder is serial number to the rest of the gun. So my hunch is that it was factory work. I find that interesting that, this is, again, a, Production article that's basically being used to make the tooling for the full production run when they sold it Did it sell was it sold as a collector item or did they just say we got another gun put on the put on someone's?
Counter for sale I think I I don't know that it was actually sold because I think they had to give they had to give the prototype to the american machine works for now whether it just sat in their drawer. We don't know there's, we know that this gun came into the Bill Locke collection.
Bill Locke was a very famous Ohio gun collector that had a couple of thousand guns. He was probably the most prolific gun collector of his era. He died in, I think it was 71 or 72. There's a great book about his collection. Yeah. And this gun is actually in the Bill Locke. book. So we know that it was in his collection and we know [00:09:00] from some early magazine articles about the model one that it was in his collection as early as 1948.
It could have been earlier than that. So what happened to the gun between 1858 and the 1940s or 1930s when he bought it? I just don't know. It could have just sat in somebody's drawer. And at that point it was just an old gun that nobody cared about. And then Bill Locke Maybe recognize the value of it and said, Hey, this is important.
But we know for the past 80 years, it's only been essentially in three or four collections. It's amazing. But exactly, whether it went onto the market as a regular commercial gun or whether it just sat in their drawer for 60 years, who knows? Yeah. So after we have these are called tip ups but once we get past the tip ups, we go into top breaks and you had mentioned briefly, you had touched on top breaks and you've got a really nice really cool example of a, an early top break here still in the original box, which is very neat.
Tell us about this top break and this particular model and what it's called. Sure. So this this was called the 38 [00:10:00] single action. This was the first Smith and Wesson gun that was chambered in any 38 caliber. And this was actually what started the 38 Smith and Wesson, which was, of course, was produced past World War II.
So this would have been I guess at this point a medium sized or a medium frame gun Of course, the model threes were the large frame and the model ones were the compacts or the carry guns This was nicknamed the baby Russian because it looked a lot like the model three Russian. It had that extended extractor shroud housing just really elegant lines that knuckle on the back strap, just above the grip.
So it it got the nickname baby Russian fairly quickly. And that's stuck with collectors. But a spur trigger as opposed to a more traditional trigger, like what we see on the model threes. Yeah. So the this is a, this is an early baby Russian. Then there was a second issue that had the, that still had the spur trigger.
Then there was the third that had the the trigger guard on it. Those were sometimes known as the Mexican. And that was when we saw that transition from the, from the spur trigger [00:11:00] to a more conventional trigger and trigger guard. Gotcha. And so if you, the extraction for this, so with the model ones, you have to take the cylinder out and you've got to punch each individual spent cartridge out, but that's not the case with these.
No. The neat innovation with the top break revolvers from Smith Wesson was they had this automatic extractor. It worked a little bit like a shotgun when you would break, say, a double barrel shotgun open and it would pop the spent cartridges out. This did exactly the same thing and this sort of started the use of the word automatic.
Not in the context that we think of automatic now, but this was an automatic extractor, and it would pop up. It also actually had this little push button on the bottom of it, so you could push that button and the extractor would not come up if for some reason, I don't know, if you wanted to do a press check on your On your top break.
On your top break yeah, is it loaded? But yeah, this was Some people would argue and I might even agree with them that this was some of Smith Wesson's just finest manufacturing There's a there's an [00:12:00] anecdote and I don't know if it's true But there's an anecdote that in the 1970s or maybe the early 80s Smith Wesson wanted to Recreate I think it was the Schofield and they got some original Schofield's which came from this era And they they couldn't figure out how to make them.
They were so well made and they just couldn't figure out, unless somebody just sits in hand makes the gun, which isn't economically viable, but these are just work of works of art from a machining perspective they're incredible. That is devastating news in our everything old is new again, episode.
I was asked what old design I want to see come back in the Schofield is what I wanted to see. So if you don't flip down that little latch on the top, could it still fire? With if you aligned it but didn't flip down that latch on the top. Yeah, like that. Like that? Oh, I, it looked like you locked it into place.
Yeah, this one's just tight. Yeah, so if you, that little lever was left up, would it still fire? I think it would. Yeah, this doesn't have any sort of camera block on it. does. But they're built like absolute tanks. That's, [00:13:00] even for that being a scaled down version of the model threes, that is still an absolute tank of a gun and beyond being able to talk about the guns themselves, we talk about just the marketing genius and we're getting into a point where we've got, Awesome illustrations on these boxes and you see this here.
That's it is just so cool To have that design on there and that this box survives. Yeah is is You know, the box is probably more rare than the gun, right? Oh, it absolutely is. It absolutely is and it came with this little wrench in here It's little it floats around, but it even came with this little wrench and you could one end of it was a screwdriver.
It was the multi tool of the 1870s. And it had the little wrench on the end, so you could take apart the extractor. But even the wrench, I sat and looked at it one night and I was just like, wow, this is really well made, right? Some, this was an engineer. This was not a mark, marketing or accounting that.
So you're saying Alan didn't come [00:14:00] up with this the marketing PR guy didn't he came up with the idea of the photo box. Yeah. We made the box though. Yeah. We made the box and the box is cool. And this was also before the era of of lawyers. So that was the instructions on the inside of the box lid.
And it just goes right into directions for use. There's no state warnings or anything like that. There's nothing on the side of the barrel, may fire if, yeah. May fire if trigger's pulled. Yes, if loaded and trigger pulled, may fire. Yeah. Yeah. It may not, but it may.
You never know. And then, so then after the top breaks, we get into, what we're, what call hand ejectors, which for everyone else is just a regular revolver, with the swing out cylinder. And so that comes out with the model 1896 that we have here, but it's a little.
different. And so I'll show it to Dan over here. Dan, do you see anything on this gun that looks different from a normal revolver? Is it this piece right here? No, it's not the recoil shield. The sights are [00:15:00] forward. Yeah, the sights are in a different spot. Not sure. Alan, do you? I don't see a cylinder release.
Bingo, bingo. Yep. There is no cylinder release on here. Normally on a Smith, you'd push it forward and the cylinder come out on a Colt and they do things backwards and you pull it back and the cylinder comes out. But on the 1896, it's up here and you pull forward. On the end of the ejector rod, and that's what brings the cylinder out.
So it's still the same concept of that swing out design. When you push up and your extractor, the star comes out and it kicks the spent casings. The cylinder release. Is a very different design on these guns and what I really like about them is that all of the patent info and the name of the company and everything is on the cylinder and it's all the patent dates, the location, the name of the company, that stuff that's normally either on the barrel or up on top of the rib, but they put it on the cylinder and I just think [00:16:00] that's cool as hell.
And I really like that aspect of these guns. They're a really cool gun. The the 1896 and, something funny about these was that there was a part of this that, that sort of regressed a little bit with the top breaks. You had the, of course, the automatic extractor. So as soon as you broke the top open, the extractor would pop up automatically, again, like a double barrel shotgun or something like that with these.
Yeah. You would initially on the first ones, you would pull the extractor rod forward to swivel it out, but you had to extract with your hand, and that was why they became known as the hand ejectors, because you had to eject by hand. They weren't automatic, so in a sense, they were going backwards a little bit on that although that ended up becoming an advantage.
The other thing with these guns was the cylinder stop was along the top. Yeah, the cylinder stop was actually built into this spring loaded lever on the top strap. And this actually, this technology went right back to the Model 1. It had this sort of split spring that would catch this little hook on the top of the hammer here.
So when the hammer would come back, the cylinder stop would be raised, [00:17:00] and then it would drop back down. But then when it would come forward, it would just go... Into the spring. This design changed very quickly. I think by 1898 or 1899, they had changed that and they had moved the cylinder stop down just above the trigger.
It was just a lot more reliable, a lot less prone to breakage. But these are really cool and really collectible guns and they're still actually really affordable to people right now. So if you're looking for something interesting to collect, look at the look at the early Smith and Wesson hand ejectors there, they're still affordable and approachable.
Yeah, absolutely. And that brings up a good point, talking about the collectability, all of these guns are highly collectible. And they're all still, relatively available on the market. Of course they're going to be at tons of different price points.
You're not going to find a one, one, one at a super affordable price point. In fact, There's probably not even one on gun broker right now but I'm sure there's at least a model one. There's probably a few model ones on gun broker because they did go through six different iterations of those guns.
All told how many [00:18:00] model ones did they make? So they made about 260, 000 model ones. And there was actually, if. If you look at across all three issues, there was actually about 28 different variations. I think that's what I've counted. But yeah, if obviously a 111 is they're extremely rare.
There was only 200 of them made probably a dozen, maybe a dozen or two that have survived. But if you get into the 1860s or the 1870s, those guns get a lot more affordable and . , you can, at any given time on gun broker, I usually see a couple dozen of them yeah. And, Smith and Weston is one of our most prolific brands on gun broker.
At any given time you've probably got a quarter million listings of a quarter of a man. Wow. Historically over time of anything from, modern m and Ps, back to some of these flexible items. Sure. One of the things that always makes. Smith stand out to me when I look at the data, if you look at their average new price versus the average use price, the difference is about the price of a Starbucks Vente.
They're almost head on. So their value just holds up and maintains. It's an unusual brand to be that close. It was a very bougie reference of you, to put the price [00:19:00] in there. That was a weird unit of measurement. Yeah. Should I use American Bulldogs? Yes, you should. Because... You speak English. Big Macs.
How many Big Macs are we talking about? We established in a previous episode that we measure things in freedom units, we measure things like in how many Liberty Bells or how many Screaming Eagles. We do not use Starbucks Venti's, Alan. Three, three quarters of a brick of small rifle primers.
Kind of the price difference between your average new and average used price. But yeah, Model 1s are still pretty affordable. I think there were, to your point, about two dozen when I looked the other day and they've swung a bit, but at for 600, you can get into a pretty nice little model.
Yeah, absolutely. Own a great piece of history from an iconic American brand and, have a great story to go along with it. And they're just cool looking. They are cool looking. And Mike, you brought along another really cool looking model one here with you. Yeah. So this is this is a second issue.
So this in 1860, Smith and Wesson built their purpose built factory. And actually, I want to go back to that for a second. The Smith and Wesson that we have now was founded in November of 1856 by 1860, they had built their own three story [00:20:00] factory. So even by modern terms, that is meteoric rise. And I'm going to, I'm going to dig on cold here a little bit.
It took cold, like 20 years to get to that point. Smith and Wesson did it in three. So they were just better and smarter. I'm just kidding. Most. Not really. We've got to get Colt on the show at some point, so you've got to be careful what you say now. In fact, if Colt would like to rebut any comments made today, you know how to contact him.
We would love to have the Colt historian come on. And then when I come on and talk about Colt, we'll, so was that rise driven by consumer adoption or government contracts? That was all consumer. That was all consumer this was really what this was an urban carry pistol You know a lot of people when they think about early Smith and Wesson they think of the Wild West this was an urban carry pistol.
This was for people in Boston in New York I know there's a lot of politicians that are gonna cringe when I say that but cities were dangerous places They had municipal police forces, but they were nothing like they were now. These were just dangerous places to be, but this was in the heyday of the industrial revolution.
A lot of people were moving to cities, so they were just exploding in size. [00:21:00] And municipal policing just couldn't keep up with it. So they were dangerous places to be. And that was the appeal of a pistol like this. And it was so easy to load. Women could not that women couldn't use percussion, but back in the day, this was seen as a kind of male enterprise and this was a revolver that could be marketed to women.
It was very easy to use. And it was driven entirely by by consumer purchases. And how did it stack up as far as price point versus the. Colts of the time and it was pretty comparable these wholesaled for about nine dollars apiece back in the day And that was about on par with Colt The interesting thing with Colt was they didn't really have something to compete with the model one they're smaller smallest revolver was the pocket revolver.
I guess maybe the roots were a little bit smaller than that But this was just tiny in comparison. It was something that you could put in Your pocket, the pocket, the Colt pocket revolver, you really couldn't put in a pocket. Yeah. The 49 pocket with a six inch barrel is not unless you got really big pockets.
Yeah. Maybe Carhartt's or something like that. But but this was an urban carry gun and it just caught on wildly at the time. People loved it. They [00:22:00] wanted it. As many as they could make, they were just flying off store shelves. So that was driven entirely by consumer sales.
So anyways, this was all by way of saying that. In three years, the company went from self founded startup to building a three story, brick factory in Springfield, a huge capital outlay so that raw materials could go in one end and guns could come out the other. They were completely vertically integrated.
And this was the product of that. The second issue came out, which was an engineered, this was a production engineered gun. The engineering changes between this and the first issue were done to make it a lot easier to produce. And this actually shipped from the factory as a. Fancy gun that was how it was that was how it was documented in the factory paperwork And it went to the mayor of springfield.
It meant went to a guy named emerson white And if you're from springfield, you know that there's an emerson white park that we're talking about the same person we don't know if this was maybe a gift horace smith and white were both involved in local politics So we don't know if maybe this was You know, Hey, buddy, here's a gift or if this had been sold to Emerson White and he gave it to [00:23:00] somebody else as a gift.
Unfortunately, we don't know that, but we know it shipped from the factory as a fancy gun, and it's a really nice example of a of a second issue. Arming Massachusetts politicians. My, how the times have changed. The politicians can still have the guns. It's everybody else is not allowed to have them, yeah, that's a beautiful gun. And I love the juxtaposition between the blue and the gold and the mother of Pearl and then with all the engraving, that just, that combination on all that is, is an absolutely beautiful design. And that's also a plug for, if you're listening to this as the audio version of the podcast, you really need to check out the video version over on the go wild YouTube channel so that you can see.
Just how fancy the fancy gun really is. It was very fancy. It was very fancy. Very fancy. And when you carry it, you have fancy pants. Oh, Dan wins the episode. Thank you. I've contributed.
That was great. Now these are all great guns. And as we've said, you can find them on gun broker. If you're [00:24:00] looking to become. A budding gun collector and you like the early stuff. This is still a way you can get into them fairly affordable. I don't think Mike's going to be putting serial number five gum broker anytime soon.
So reserve penny start. And if you're also interested in getting started in collecting, I would say that your organization is probably a good. Good one to follow in and maybe even buy a membership. Absolutely. The Collectors Association, we love when new people come in. We really make an effort at our annual symposium to welcome our new members.
They even get a little thing on their badge that recognizes that they're, they're a first time attendee at the symposium and we go out of our way to shake their hands. welcome them in and learn about their collecting interests and hey, whether that's whether that's the modern plastics or model ones or something in between, there's something there for everybody.
It's good stuff. It's it's a good organization. I've been a member for about 10 years now and yeah, everyone's been really welcoming and there's lots of info to learn. So we, we try not to be the snobby. organization. Yeah, there are some of those out [00:25:00] there. I'm members of those two. No names. Yeah.
Nope. Nope. No names. We won't mention them, but yeah. So guys, thank you so much for sitting around the table and talking about some early Smith and Wessons and some design changes and iterations. And thank you, Mike, for bringing along that. Absolutely amazing piece of history. Serial number five is just, you're going to have to give it a good wipe down when you go home.
Cause I think it's going to get drooled on while it's here, but we really appreciate you bringing it. And now, and Dan, appreciate you guys being here. Dan, thanks for your fancy pants. That was the help matches a shirt. That'll be the YouTube short. Absolutely. Can we get a t shirt down? Oh yeah.
We need a fancy pants with a model one going into it. Oh yes. I love it. That's a great idea. Get on that, Logan. Yeah. Awesome. Again, thank you guys for joining me around the table. Thank you to the viewers and listeners for tuning in either on YouTube or on your favorite podcast player. If you're not subscribed to the show on your favorite format, please do that's [00:26:00] right. Press that button and leave us some comments, some reviews. We would love to do that. Love to have that from you as well. We do read all the comments and stuff. We appreciate it. If you happen to have serial number one through four, please comment. Please. Yes, absolutely. Mike would be more than happy to put a second mortgage on his house to get one through four.
Yeah. Awesome. Again, thank you guys for tuning in and we will see you right here on the next episode of the no low ballers podcast.