The Rebirth of Knight & Hale

Show Notes

In this episode of the Hunting Gear Podcast, host Dan Johnson welcomes Matt Wade and Jimmy from Knight & Hale, a historic brand in turkey hunting gear. They discuss the brand's origins, its revival after a period of dormancy, and the strategies they are implementing to appeal to both older and younger generations of hunters. The conversation highlights the passion behind turkey hunting, the importance of community, and the excitement surrounding the launch of new products. In this conversation, the team from Night and Hail discusses the importance of customer feedback in product development, emphasizing their commitment to quality and innovation. They highlight their focus on creating unique turkey calls and accessories that cater to a wide demographic, including the next generation of hunters. The conversation also touches on the brand's legacy and their plans for revitalization at upcoming events.

Takeaways:

  • Nightingale is a cornerstone brand in turkey hunting.
  • The brand was founded in 1972 by Harold Knight and David Hale.
  • Harold and David remain actively involved in product development.
  • The turkey hunting community is passionate and engaged.
  • Reviving the brand involves reconnecting with its roots.
  • Social media plays a crucial role in reaching younger hunters.
  • The camaraderie of turkey hunting sets it apart from deer hunting.
  • New product launches are focused on quality and heritage.
  • The old Yeller call is being relaunched due to high demand.
  • The excitement around turkey hunting is being reignited with new generations. Customer feedback is crucial for product success.
  • Quality control ensures each call is unique.
  • The brand aims to cater to all demographics.
  • Innovative products are designed for comfort and usability.
  • Reviving the brand's legacy is a key focus.
  • The team values the input of experienced hunters.
  • Handcrafted products stand out in a crowded market.
  • Building memories is central to the brand's mission.
  • Upcoming launches will showcase new and exciting products.
  • The NWTF show is a pivotal event for brand engagement.

Show Transcript

Dan Johnson (00:00.406)
All right, everybody. Welcome to the hunting gear podcast. And I'm pretty excited about today's episode for a couple of reasons. This is the first time we have two guys on the show at the same time. So it's going to be interesting from a conversation standpoint, but also a brand in my opinion. And we don't get into Turkey hunting gear here too terribly much, but from a brand that in my opinion is very recognizable.

It's very cornerstone. It's like the cornerstone, nightingale and primos when you think about turkey hunting. I mean, those are it when you talk about turkey hunting from back in the day when I started turkey hunting. And today we are joined by Matt and Jimmy from Nightingale. Gentlemen, welcome to the show.

Matt Wade (00:42.311)
Yeah.

Matt Wade (00:50.286)
Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having us.

Jimmy (00:50.516)
Thanks for having us.

Dan Johnson (00:51.981)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And we're gonna talk a little bit about, you know, the products, the brand, the history of this company. But before we get into this episode, I do have to do a quick shout out to the partners of this podcast. And that is Code Blue Sense. If you are looking for any type of real or synthetic deer urine, go check out Code Blue Sense, one of my favorite products that they make. And now I just saw an announcement that they are making it in a two pack.

which is great for me. It is the Ropidote Mock Scrape Kit. I'm a huge fan of setting up my ambush points for deer hunting with the Mock Scrape Kit. You put a camera on that Mock Scrape and now you're getting inventory of not just the bucks in the area, but all the deer in the area. And I really love that. So go to codebluesense.com, discount code NFC20 for 20 % off. And then next we have the Reveal Trail Cameras.

Matt Wade (01:43.428)
Okay.

Dan Johnson (01:51.545)
Go check out the new 3.0 versions of the Reveal Trail Camera and at tacticam.com slash cameras. Very easy to set up, scan a QR code, put batteries in the camera, download the app and you're ready to go. Ease of use is second to none. So go check out Reveal, go check out Code Blue Sense. All right, gentlemen, that's how I pay my bills. Let's talk night and hail. Like I said in the intro there, night and hail, when I was a kid, man,

Matt Wade (02:10.605)
Yeah.

Matt Wade (02:20.845)
Okay.

Dan Johnson (02:20.95)
I had almost night and hail everything. can remember my first box call was night and hail. My first striker slate call was night and hail. My first ever turkey vest was night and hail. And so, and so I was, I was that Walmart kid, right? I'd go to Walmart. I'd buy my, my turkey clothing there, anything I needed. I got it there. Night and hail was there. And it was a brand that was, it's very recognizable to me.

So why don't we start off with a little bit of company history.

Matt Wade (02:53.877)
Yeah, so, yeah, I grew up on night and hell too, but I didn't start turkey hunting until the 2010 time frame. So a little different timeframe, but all my calls were night and hell when I started to, but yeah, night and hell was formed back in 1972. Harold Knight was making Turkey calls kind of out of his garage and just on the side. He was a barber by trade in Kentucky.

And he had kind of gotten a word of mouth reputation for this tube call he was making. He was making a tube called a pill bottle and latex. So he was a big hunter. David was also a big hunter. They didn't know each other growing up. But by chance, David killed a gobbler kind of in the area and an area where not a lot of people were killing turkeys. So people were asking me, what did you use to kill the turkey? And he said, I don't even have a call. So somebody turned him on to going to meet Harold. And so I said, you need to go over to this barbershop.

And so just by chance, they met each other because Harold was making those calls and David, David went to get one and they struck up a friendship, started hunting together. And, you know, by chance again, they ran into a rider in the woods. Like Harold was Harold and David were hunting separately, but meeting back at the truck or whatever. And Harold was out in the woods on a gobbler and David was just waiting at a rider pulled up and was like, what's that around your neck? And it was that tube call. And so they ended up getting some publicity from.

this rider who bought a tube call and then it just kind of spiraled from there. And then sometime in the 80s, they went full time. Just kept growing and growing and Harold won some call contest and just, you know, they just became a big name in the Turkey world and, you know, in other calls too. had goose calls, you know, ended up making all kinds of calls over the years. But yeah, they started a TV production. That was the thing they really

They really wanted to figure out how to advertise the product. And they figured out the best way to do that was through TV and VHS. you know, they started their hunting show and then it just took off from there. And they're just super relatable guys. And, you know, they are the brand. you know, that's kind of what made it up.

Dan Johnson (05:03.948)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's very interesting because what you said there was a lot like how Realtree got started. Another iconic brand in the space. know, Guy has a product. He starts to talk to people about it. He starts to talk to writers and then he starts the media side of things as well to really showcase the brand in action. And so it's I just feel like that is such an awesome way.

back in the day it was such an awesome way how guys were getting their products out. It's not like today. I just feel like today's way, obviously, it's way easier, but it's more calculated. It's not like, hey, I got a pill bottle and I put some latex on it, right? It's not like that anymore, I don't think. And so I love those origin stories.

Matt Wade (05:48.018)
Thank

Matt Wade (05:59.656)
It's like a lot of companies now they'll come out with a product and by the time you see it, they've already got a polished, you know, social media presence and it looks like, you know, it's something that it's really not. And, you know, there's a lot of sweat, a lot of sweat, and tears that went into starting the business. And, you know, they, they risked it all multiple times to, you know, put money into molds that they didn't have the money for to, you know, take these writers on hunts. That was the other thing they talk about writers a lot and how they utilize them. And, you they would.

Dan Johnson (06:06.902)
Yep. Yep.

Matt Wade (06:28.808)
put everything they had into one product and advertising it for that year. Like the, invented the first push pull call. And I think that it was like, they had, they scrounged up like 35 grand and then spent it on like, they had like seven ads running simultaneously, like the month before Turkey season and the big, you know, honey magazines, like we're going to sell like 12,000 calls and they sold like 60,000 and they were just like, you know, doing everything they could to make those. Like we could have sold double that if we would have had, you know, the product, but

It just took off. They had to have a great name in the turkey industry and always will. They're just good guys.

Dan Johnson (07:03.852)
Yeah. Are those guys still involved with the company?

Matt Wade (07:10.343)
Yes, we're, I'm put me and Jimmy are developing products together and, um, you know, that's kind of where it starts, but everything, everything that we've touched has gone through Harold. He's still super involved. I talk with him at least weekly and you know, he's, super excited that we're launching the new Turkey call line again this year. Um, has been super involved in that and you know, I'm, I'm getting everything I can out of his head. You know, he's, he's forgotten more about Turkey hunting than I'll ever learn.

Dan Johnson (07:39.81)
Ha ha.

Matt Wade (07:40.004)
and call making. And that's the other part of it is, you know, I can get stuff done. I've never been a hall maker myself. So trying to learn everything I can from him and from David, you know, Harold's, David unfortunately has had some health problems in recent years, but he still lives right across the road from Harold. Harold goes and visits him just about every day. So kind of feeding everything through Harold right now, just to, you know, you

Give Mr. David what we're talking about, but not bombard him too much.

Dan Johnson (08:16.856)
Yeah. Hey, Jimmy, did this brand sit kind of idle for a while?

Jimmy (08:23.375)
It did. It's it's been a significant amount of years since it's it's pretty much sat in a corner, right? You know, Matt was involved with.

some of the running gun turkey vest, right? The RNG 200, which, you know, pretty much is a staple in the line right now. And we've seen a lot of success with that, with that vest, honestly, and to have a turkey vest, right? That does so well and not have a call to put in it kind of doesn't make sense. Right? So, you know, when I come on about a year and a half ago and I'm a big turkey hunter, right? That's my passion. You know, got together with Matt,

in in in RGM, Brian Malone and you we started to formulate a plan right and here we are in 2025 about to release one of the you one of the like you stated one of the best one of the pillars of the industry bringing back Nightingale game calls and we are excited to be honest with you so.

Dan Johnson (09:22.446)
Yeah, yeah. And so let me ask you a question. This is not to bash Pradco, okay? But what happens, and I've seen it with my own eyes, is a company gets sold to one of these bigger holding companies, okay? Like the Faradines of the world, the pure archery groups like that, I could go on. But what happens is when it's sold, the brand tends to lose some of its gusto.

Jimmy (09:40.413)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (09:51.139)
because now it's not about necessarily the brand per se, it's about financial efficiency at that point. How do you guys take an iconic brand like that that was sold and keep the gusto alive in it?

Jimmy (10:07.699)
Well, I want to take one step back there before we go forward with it, Dan. You know, when you look at Pradco, we are a big company, but I will say this, we are family owned by the Stevenson family. So, and I've come from this world, I've worked in this world for the last 25 years and I've seen exactly what you stated happen, right?

Dan Johnson (10:09.719)
Okay.

Jimmy (10:29.535)
to elaborate even more on it, I would say that there was some mismanagement, some quality control issues, and Matt can kind of elaborate on that too, but it sat in corner just because of some mismanagement issues, quite frankly, right?

Matt Wade (10:40.598)
Yeah.

Matt Wade (10:48.322)
And I think part of it was timing as well. mean, so you think about kind of the timeframe, Nightingale stopped making calls in 2017 to 2018. Two years later, or a year and a half later, later COVID hit and the Turkey industry itself went from kind of being on the down slope to all of a sudden a huge boost in users pretty much. people that only deer hunted when Turkey hunted or when COVID hit.

They were like, what am going to do? And we saw a surge in turkey hunters that either hadn't hunted in years or were just new hunters. And I really think we missed the boat there. Honestly, if we would have, you know, waited another year or two, I think we would have seen a resurgence in the brand. But to Jimmy's point, yeah, there probably was a little bit of that. And that's something that we're fully avoiding at this point. Like when I say that, you know, I want Harold and David to be super involved.

That's that was my biggest goal when we said we're going to start baking turkey calls again was I don't know exactly all the details of what happened because I was still pretty new and I managed like you mentioned code blue. Shout out code blue. I managed code blue as well and you there was probably a little bit of that when they bought code blue back in the 90s as well. But like Jimmy said, we're we're all hunters were super you know super close with Harold and David and want them to be you know kind of the final stamp on everything so that we don't.

get away from where the company came from. Like maybe we had back in the early 2000s. yeah, I think what you're going to see is a lot of the old school bread and butter that Night and Hail was formed on. And that's kind of the direction that we're trying to go for sure.

Dan Johnson (12:34.455)
How do you guys do that? how do you, cause there's so many things have changed from a marketing standpoint that man, you gotta have this presence on social media and the demographic shift changes a little bit by those who consume social media content because when I envision Night and Hail in its prime, those people now are in their 50s and 60s, okay?

Matt Wade (12:43.007)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Wade (12:49.511)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Wade (13:03.678)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Johnson (13:04.278)
So how do you take a brand like Night and Hail that was iconic, you know, a decade ago, maybe even longer than that, and make it, I hate to use the word hip and cool, now to this younger generation.

Matt Wade (13:21.02)
Well, there's some of that, when it comes down to it, nobody kills turkeys better than the guys that are in their 50s and 60s, the guys that grew up on Night and Hill in that timeframe. There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of technological advances, you know, just de just looking at decoys in general and just all the blinds. There are a lot of things that have changed since, you know, Night and Hill started. But so we plan to incorporate some of that with the brand.

So we can appeal to that younger hunter and bring them in. But when it comes down to it, the bedrock is still going to be that we're going to make good calls and we're going to make something that is user friendly and that is going to appeal to both our consumer base that grew up on night and hail and those young guys and get them involved. Because I know that you can DIY anything right now. You can go and go to YouTube and try to figure out how to do it. But you walk out in the woods and try to turkey hunt without

kind of a mentor or somebody bringing you into it, like, it's just not that easy. You know, see everything looks easy on YouTube, but, you and you can learn how to run a call, but knowing what to do and how to do it, that's where, you know, the old school presence is going to be helpful. we plan to appeal to both sides.

Dan Johnson (14:31.95)
Absolutely.

Jimmy (14:32.928)
Yeah. And when you look at, you point out social media, Dan.

You know, when I come back in to this scene over here with Matt and looked at the social media numbers, it was, it was surprisingly pleasant to see how many likes and how many followers Night in Hell still had, right? You know, the demographics, it might be to your point, the older Hunter, but that older Hunter has kids, right? That he's bringing into the space, right? So, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're talking about Night in Hell and look, you know, and it's funny cause my 11 year old man, he's on the Night in

Matt Wade (15:01.856)
huh.

Jimmy (15:09.277)
website and granted I obviously work for the company but he's excited about it right so to see that and I think another thing is you know we're you know we're obviously going to attend NWTF in a big way this year and I call it you know the kind of the consumer warfare the you know the the consumer shows and whatnot so we're gonna get back out there and get in touch with these these this younger crowd right and I think the biggest thing there is making people feel a part of what you're doing is key to key to success right and I

think Harold and David did that back in the day when they started. So we're gonna kind of follow suit with what they did.

Dan Johnson (15:45.731)
Yeah, yeah. So then, I mean, the next progression in this conversation is talk to us about what you guys have already accomplished in the rebirth of this brand, what your goals are, have you accomplished those goals, and what the next steps look like to get this brand resurgence at full bore, especially with turkey season coming up.

Matt Wade (16:10.542)
Yeah. So we've been kind of stewing over how we would relaunch the brand for a few months, especially around the time that Jimmy came on. Jimmy apparently has a little more influence than I do here at Pradco. So we've been pushing for Night and Hill to get back into the call game for a while. But we kind of got over the hump and focused on the products that we're launching this year to make sure that they were up to snuff as far as quality, that we could

have them here in time for turkey season and basically concentrate on this, you know, small but quality offering. So we've got 10 new calls dropping this year. We've already got all the calls in stock and we've got a number of things in the hopper for next year as far as calls go. But like Jimmy said, in those years when the call side was dormant, we were still selling tons and tons of turkey vests. So we've got...

We lost two new turkey vests last year. Our two new camo patterns we updated are offering to also include green leaf and original bottom land. So those have been selling like crazy. So we're concentrating both on the call side and on the accessory side. So we have a new turkey chair for this year, but we also have, there's just a lot of stuff in the hopper. So we're close on a lot of projects that probably could have been launched this year, but

Again, we really focused on the specific set and said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to make sure this is done well. We've got new calls plus some old favorites that you'll see at NWTF. The most iconic call Nightingale probably ever made was the old Yeller. Everybody had an old Yeller. still see, I mean, if you look up, go look on eBay and see what the old Yellers are going for. People, people long for this call. So we're, we're relaunching the old Yeller.

It's the exact same surface that we've used for, you know, since the call originated. so in our absence, it might've been imitated, but that old Yeller, do, it's, it's, there's nothing like the real thing. So that was my biggest focus was to say, let's start with a good lineup and make sure that we have the old Yeller obviously in the mix. And then there are some other favorites that we've got on the docket to bring back as well. You go look at the social media posts, like all these guys been waiting to see something from Night and Hail.

Matt Wade (18:32.235)
And then the first comment is not like, cool, I'm excited about this. It's like, when are you bringing back this call? When are you bringing back this vest? When am I going to get more of this? So we hear you and yeah, there's definitely a lot of that on the docket.

Dan Johnson (18:43.212)
Yeah. How difficult is it to manage 10 plus new products launched in a single year?

Matt Wade (18:53.386)
I would say it's super difficult If it were products that were not that I was not super excited about and passionate about yes, that would be difficult I worked in the plumbing world before so when we had 20 or 30 new plumbing products Yeah, it was it was pretty pretty crappy if you if you catch them I had to drop the dad joke in there, but yeah, I'm excited as can be Jimmy is as well like Jimmy said he's a

Jimmy (19:09.971)
This is a step up. This is a step up for Matt.

Dan Johnson (19:10.41)
Hahaha!

Matt Wade (19:21.544)
I can kill turkeys. Jimmy's a turkey killer. So, yeah, we're, super excited. We've worked really closely to make sure we get these launched in time. And honestly, this is the most exciting project that I've worked on. I've been at Pranko for almost 10 years and I love Code Blue and all of our other brands, but there's something different about turkey hunting and about products for the turkey hunter. So yeah, I wouldn't say it's been difficult. It's been stressful to make sure that, you know, we, we do the brand justice.

that's something that Harold and David built and we all feel like we're doing the best we can, but there's a reputation to live up to and we're definitely doing that. But yeah, so I wouldn't call it difficult, but it's been funny.

Dan Johnson (20:07.886)
For some reason, when you said plumbing, I envisioned like a boardroom with all these people in it. And then the boss comes in. He's like, hey guys, I got some great news. And he's trying to hype up everybody about like a flange or whatever there is with plumbing. And it's like, okay, well, whatever. This is plumbing.

Matt Wade (20:21.895)
Exactly.

Matt Wade (20:28.02)
It's like, how do you brand plumbing?

Jimmy (20:29.103)
Well, Dan, we have that Dan will have a new plunger next year and it'll have a turkey head sitting on the top. We'll set it right in here. It's going to be the most exciting thing you've seen. Yeah. Yeah. And I think just, just the reason, I mean, Matt, Matt has done a phenomenal job. I cannot give him.

Dan Johnson (20:32.81)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (20:37.62)
Exciting, Exactly, exactly.

Matt Wade (20:40.422)
Not again.

Jimmy (20:47.346)
enough credit, right? You know, we were, he works tireless, the team works tireless. Our marketing team right now with what they've done in creating the excitement, right? Teasing a little bit here and there. It's, it's, it's been humbling to see the, you know, the, just this, positivity around this brand coming back. So, I mean, we're really excited.

Dan Johnson (21:06.242)
Yeah. I'll tell you this. One thing about turkey hunters, there's deer hunters. And if you're going to look at deer hunters in a big bucket, know, 80 % of deer hunters are what I would call casual. And they go out a couple of times a year. They maybe go do their deer camp one weekend a year. You know, there's guys like me who are, who are psychopaths.

about bow hunting and stuff like that. But I feel like when it comes to turkey hunters, I got friends who if turkey hunting overlapped with deer hunting, they would choose turkey hunting. And yeah. And so there's something about there's something about turkey, the core group of turkey hunters that are way more serious about it than the core group of deer hunters. What do think that is?

Jimmy (22:05.073)
Yeah man, you know, deer, when you look at deer hunting, you go out and you sit in a tree stand, don't get me wrong, I get just as excited shooting a big deer or a buck or whatever as I do, you know, anything else, but you know, it's something that...

I can share with someone, Dan, right? If I want to take my dad out or the kids, they can go with me. And honestly, listen, I love killing turkeys just as much as the next guy, but I think it's the camaraderie, it's the relationships, it's the memories that I've built, not by myself sitting in a deer stand, but with other people that...

you know, it even a little bit more special to me, right? And, you know, here in the gobble, man, there's nothing like it, to be honest with you. And, you know, you can do that with someone. I think it's, you know, that's how you kind of separate the deer hunting with the turkey hunting, a lot more interaction and easily shared with people in the woods. you know, that's my thoughts on it.

Dan Johnson (22:58.041)
Yeah. Yep.

Dan Johnson (23:14.658)
Yeah. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, go ahead.

Matt Wade (23:16.12)
Turkey hunting, turkey hunting is cult to me. mean, it's like, once you're in it, like I get excited to go deer hunting every year. like Jimmy said, like there's just every year that first gobble you hear, like there's just, you can't imitate that. There's no, like a buck comes out. Like we just had a, you know, a big hunt recently where we hunted three straight days, morning and night. And I saw some bucks and you get that excitement for a second. like, I mean, it's just, it's just different with turkey hunting. I mean, there's

Dan Johnson (23:20.654)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Wade (23:44.889)
There's no way to describe it, but it's just different.

Dan Johnson (23:46.681)
I'll tell you one of my favorite things about turkey hunting, all right, is, so I grew up turkey hunting without blinds, right? Running gun only, shotgun, you know, the old Mossberg pump and maybe some camo and you go, right? You go, sit a little bit and you go, dude, I'm telling you, I had a conversation with a guy about what is your favorite thing about being in the outdoors.

Jimmy (23:57.151)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Johnson (24:16.576)
And I gave an ultra specific and that is when I set up on a turkey who's gobbling in front of me and they're we're playing that game, right? We're calling back and forth with each other. Maybe they're hung up with some hens. And then you hear behind you, you hear the boom, boom, boom. And you're just like, shit, like you're about ready to lose your mind and you just got to stand still and you're.

Matt Wade (24:38.252)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (24:41.999)
You're looking so hard without moving your eyes start to get strained because you can't move your head. man I don't know what it is about that. That just gets me fired up. And then I hit a point in turkey hunting where I had killed a lot of turkeys and I just kind of I don't know personally got done. Like I was just done with it. I started skipping seasons and like I was full-bore into deer hunting, but now I got three kids.

and my kids, my daughter shot her first turkeys last year and my son is now gun-ho about wanting to get out there and go turkey hunting this year and now I've got a reason to get excited again about that. And so now I'm starting to look at all these different products and you know going to the store and buying camel for my kids and maybe trying to get my daughter her first call or something like that. And so I don't know, I personally...

Matt Wade (25:23.182)
Mm-hmm.

Jimmy (25:37.149)
That's awesome, Yeah.

Dan Johnson (25:38.167)
Yeah, I'm personally invested into turkey hunting again. Yeah, I know, I know. Hey, thanks for, you know, it's like a family member who goes to jail and now they're out and they're on the right track and you're like, we've always loved you, come back to us, come back to us. So let's talk a little bit about.

Jimmy (25:41.481)
Well, welcome back. Welcome back. This is perfect timing.

Matt Wade (25:43.017)
Yeah.

We heard it.

Jimmy (25:51.699)
Yes.

Matt Wade (25:53.389)
You

Jimmy (25:56.222)
Yep.

Dan Johnson (26:02.54)
those customers that you mentioned who are like, when are you coming out with this? When are you coming out with this? What, how much does customer feedback play a part in what products you are going to start to launch or adjust moving forward?

Jimmy (26:20.895)
Yeah, it's that that's a it's a lot of it right, you know when I call that the 80 % roll rate

We can be the 20 % sitting in a room thinking we know everything and we know what to bring back. But when you see the posts out there and you listen to your consumers and what they tell you, you tend to be a little bit more successful with what you're doing. And I think that matters a lot to us. And I'm sure Harold and David, when Matt spent time with them down there a few months ago, I would probably say that they would say the same thing, right?

Matt Wade (26:55.634)
Yeah.

Dan Johnson (26:57.677)
Yeah. And so does it have a direct impact on changes? mean, if you guys have specific examples on that, it's like, man, I like this call, but if you did this to it, or I like the vest, but if you did this to it and you got enough people doing that, then there might be some energy generated to make that change.

Matt Wade (27:17.867)
We definitely listen to customer feedback and like Jimmy was saying, we can overanalyze a project into the dirt and then it come out and it's a great call or great whatever in the hunting industry. And it can be a flop if the customer doesn't want it. And it's not if we don't do a good enough job explaining how to use it. I mean, there's just a lot of things. The best product can sit on the shelf. So definitely listen to consumers and talking with Harold. That was one of my first questions is tell me

Like I look at it and like I said, I just got into the turkey hunting and more recent year. So the history of night and hail is the more recent history for me before I got to actually talk with Harold and David about it. What worked for them? What didn't work? What ideas did they have that they couldn't that they, you know, maybe couldn't afford to bring out at the time when they were small business, like what, you know, what other companies made products that we never made and they just killed it. And, you know, what can we do differently?

this time around to make sure that the consumer is involved, that we're looking at it from all aspects. And it's it's invaluable. The Hunter feedback, I mean, there's nothing more valuable than that than what the customer wants, because you can give them a great product that's not what they're looking for, the way they want it, when they want it. It can be a flop. So definitely, definitely important part of it.

Dan Johnson (28:38.457)
Yeah. And so obviously customers play a huge role in what is launched. Now, when we do launch a product, and this is where, how do you stand apart? Because let's be honest here, there are a lot of products that are similar. Another brand can come out with something, like, especially for someone who may not be initiated into hardcore.

let's just say turkey hunting, right? A call is a call is a call, right? So how do you say our call is better or you should buy this call instead of a competitive brand who has a product that is damn near similar?

Matt Wade (29:09.149)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Wade (29:24.294)
Yeah, we've got to concentrate on quality. We hand match strikers with each pot call. Each call is we're not a lot of calls and there's nothing wrong with any of them, but the mass production of calls can can do that, can make it where a lot of calls are very similar. We're we're testing and quality controlling and hand hand striking every call before it goes in a package to make sure that.

You know, you, when you pull out the package, it's not just a striker, it's the striker that was matched to that pot call. And then calls like the push pull call. That was an invention of Harold and David's from the eighties. They were the pioneers of that call. And there's not a lot of people making that call. It's a staple to our line and it always will be. And that's something that, you know, you can try to make that, or you can mass produce something like that overseas, but there's nothing like a handmade call right here in the USA and

That's something that we're taking pride in and we're gonna, we're just gotta, we have to show the, show the brand and what it's about and not that it's just like you said before, there can be a connotation that it's about just about profits or that it's just big business, but that's not what Night and Hail's about. And, you know, that's maybe something that could have been a problem in the past, but it won't be, it won't be a problem this time. You'll feel that it's a homegrown brand and that the products are.

are touched by people that are turkey hunters and turkey callers.

Dan Johnson (30:50.637)
Yeah. All right. And now to elaborate on that just a little bit. Jimmy, you said before we started recording that you handle some of the sales of the products and sometimes and I'm guessing, I'm guessing here, sometimes you'll see something perform really well and there won't be a lot of customer feedback. So how does sales like within this, this circle of life for a product, how does sales communicate?

Jimmy (30:58.72)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Johnson (31:20.15)
with product development and say, hey man, we may have something here.

Jimmy (31:25.823)
Yeah, mean, it's to your point. I mean, if you don't have any feedback, Dan, it's tough to make a change, right? But sometimes no news is good news, right? So and I think, you know, to to Matt's point, a call that we make has a different touch, has a different sound to it when it comes out of the package, right? You know, if if the consumer is happy with what he or she bought.

you don't have any issues, you know, but you know, when we do have an issue, we, need to take care of that issue. and it's, you know, it's something that, you know, our team internally are, you know, we're going to take it pretty serious. So, but you know, that's kind of an open ended question, Dan, honestly, man, cause it's, it's tough to really track that down sometimes, you know, so, we, we just, we just have to try to make the best product that we can, you know, and, hope that the consumer gravitates to it. So,

Matt Wade (32:11.734)
Thank you.

Jimmy (32:22.631)
There's really no secret recipe out there, I don't think.

Matt Wade (32:26.948)
Jimmy's Jimmy's known for the the Eastern time, you know, 11 o'clock text message with an idea that it's just like, I've got young kids, I'm trying to put them to bed and like, who's texting you right now? It's freaking Jimmy with some idea or he's at a show. Jimmy's all over the place. He's at, you know, every consumer show out there pretty much. So he keeps the roads hot. And, you know, I do. I'm a I'm a gear junkie when it comes to, you know, Turkey and deer stuff.

So I think I'm in the know, but Jimmy's seeing it firsthand at the show. So he's actually seeing the product. So I try to get feedback from him. I've got a group of close turkey hunters, the guys that mentored me, especially my father-in-law, I lean on him a lot for feedback on products. we're not putting out a call that, I don't want anything with Nightingale's name on it that's going to pay the bills. We want it that's going to kill turkeys and that's going to help that reputation.

That's what we're building right now. Like you said, had her, you know, the Harold and David build that reputation and it, you know, kind of the call side of it went away for years and you know, we've got work to do on that side and that's, what we're focusing on.

Dan Johnson (33:36.268)
Yeah. And I will tell you this, hunters are the most critical people towards their equipment that I have ever met. And I am one of them, right? If it

Jimmy (33:42.483)
yeah.

Jimmy (33:46.129)
As soon as something goes wrong, you're going to hear about it, right? You know? I it's the way we are.

Dan Johnson (33:49.761)
yeah, yep, yep, yep. And so, I mean, I might not be the guy who complains about it, but I am the guy who will never buy it again if it goes wrong or if it does not. So this is the best thing that I've ever heard. If I'm not thinking about it while I'm hunting, then it's doing its job, right? If, for example, my boots or my socks, if my feet are cold or whatever the case is, enter product here type of conversation.

It's going like if I'm thinking about it, that means I it's it's not making me confident in that piece of equipment. So confidence is key. Yep, absolutely. All right. So big product launch this year. Lots of new new stuff coming out when you guys sit at the Night and Hail roundtable or the Pratico roundtable and you're having these conversations about what's next. What's next? What do those conversations look like?

Matt Wade (34:27.072)
confidence is key.

Matt Wade (34:49.824)
We've got a laundry list of products that are on. That's what keeps me up at night is the list of things that are to come. The stuff, like you said, is it was hard to launch this year. Super excited about that part. we've got, I don't even want to guess how many projects we've got on the list, but it's in the tens for sure. So will we get all of them across the finish line next year? No, but we're looking at, obviously, on the call side, we're revamping.

Turkey calls, deer calls, honey accessories. Like I said, we launched, I didn't mention it too much, but we launched a turkey chair this year that, you know, we've got the turkey vest and it's not for everybody. my, you know, as you get older sitting on the ground and you know, up and down, up and down, that six inches of getting off the ground is valuable to our, to like my, you know, grandpa is hunting. So I love this chair. I deer hunted out of this chair. We were testing it all through last year.

And it's freaking awesome. I love it. It's a little heavier than carrying a two pound turkey vest, but at six or seven pounds, you can sit in that thing all day. It's kind of like sitting in a summit climber. You can sit in a summit climber all day long. Whereas if you're in a saddle, if you've a back like mine, you're just not going to make it happen. So we're trying to look at all aspects of deer calls, turkey calls, accessories, and beyond, honestly.

I can't drop any hints about what's on the docket, but it's definitely, we'll just say it's not just calls invest. But, you know, we're, we're excited about it. These are things that I'm, know Jimmy's Jimmy's, you know, selling on that side and has lots of ideas, on my side from the product management standpoint, I've been chomping at the bit to do something for code blue. For example, we launched products every year and

I don't want to get too far into a crazy product that's just this gimmicky. The product does what it says it's going to do. There's not a whole lot of ways to reinvent the wheel. I love turkey hunting gear and I've been pining for the day to be doing these projects. So I'm excited about it. yeah, accessories, accessories and rounding out that call on, but we're not going to be everything to everybody either. That was part of Nightingale's, I think part of the problem before was we had

Matt Wade (37:14.16)
We had calls for every animal on the face of the planet. We're probably not going to get back to that point. You know, we have, we have other categories on the docket, but we're not going to have 38 different gadwall calls like maybe we had before. And when Jimmy mentions mismanagement, that's, that's part of it. And that's not a knock on anybody who was working with Nightingale before, but it's hard to be everything to everybody. We know what we're good at and that's where we're going to focus.

Dan Johnson (37:26.061)
Mm-hmm.

Jimmy (37:36.979)
Sure.

And that chair, that new chair, Dan is great for kids too, right? My little guy. I mean, it was my fault when he missed his first turkey, right? Because he was sitting too low. So it wasn't his fault, right? So, you know, when we look at, when I look at the importance of, especially now getting the younger generation out into the woods, right? You want them to be comfortable. So a product like that can really, really help with making that hunt a little bit more comfortable for them. You know, when we're out there, they don't sit on a rock or, you know,

Dan Johnson (37:39.715)
We'll just.

Matt Wade (37:44.667)
Mm-hmm.

Jimmy (38:09.569)
or a stick, you know how that goes. sit down and then you think you then you hear that drumming in your right ear and your left side's sleeping, right? So things like these products make it a little bit easier for these guys and kids to hunt in, so.

Dan Johnson (38:14.784)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Johnson (38:22.648)
Yeah, I will say that that chair, I pulled it up here. It looks comfortable. And I think the flaw for me with it would be I would fall asleep and then I'd have a strutter at like 20 yards in front of me and I'd open my eyes and my gun would drop or I'd shake or something and I'd screw up there.

Jimmy (38:35.528)
Yeah.

Matt Wade (38:42.422)
Well, you'd fall asleep, but your legs would be feeling great. You would not. Your legs would be awake. If you have to, if if you have to get up and chase, chase the gobbler down, you'll be fine. You will not fall on your face when you stand up. But like I said, I deer hunted out of it. And in the testing part of it, it's like I'd I prefer not to hunt from the ground most of the time. But I had a couple opportunities to deer hunt out of it. And I sat for four to five hours both.

Dan Johnson (38:45.708)
Yeah, exactly. Well rested for the afternoon hunt. There you go.

Jimmy (38:45.799)
That's right, that's right, that's right.

Dan Johnson (38:56.556)
That's a fact.

Matt Wade (39:10.734)
both sits morning and night and it's freaking awesome. mean, that text only material is super forgiving for a heavier guy too. yeah, great seat.

Dan Johnson (39:24.27)
Let me ask you a question about the turkey calls a second, from a product development standpoint. You know, I'm looking at the diaphragms right now, and there's all these different little cuts and slits and things. Is there really that much difference in the sound of it based off of the cut of the diaphragm?

Matt Wade (39:26.874)
Mm-hmm.

Jimmy (39:34.143)
Mm-hmm.

Jimmy (39:42.794)
There is reason being and to go back to.

You know, we have turkey hunters cutting these calls makes a big difference, right? So a 3000 thickness, a four thousandth thickness, you know, allows you with the air pressure, tongue pressure to manipulate the different sounds of the turkey, right? You know, if you want to get real soft on them, you know, a thinner read will help you, you know, or if you're a beginner, these reads all make a big difference in terms of the, maybe the

capacity or how a caller calls and then you know from a new caller you know usually we send them to a you know maybe a two read no cut you know because he doesn't have to force as much air on them so every call every cut allows the caller to make a different call make a call louder or softer and manipulate a turkey in many different ways so yeah there are a bunch of differences in these cuts for sure

Dan Johnson (40:40.622)
Okay, all right. And I'm not a nut when it comes to calling. I'm that guy who, I do the same call every single time. I'm not a turkey call, yeah.

Jimmy (40:48.937)
Yep.

And it works. I mean, you don't have to be a master caller to kill a turkey, right? You know, I'm not saying that by any means. So, but you know, as you get more into it's like playing a guitar, the more chords you know, the more songs you can play. So I mean, you know, this is, it's the same. It's the same with a turkey call. So.

Dan Johnson (41:01.804)
Yep, that's a fact.

Dan Johnson (41:07.702)
Yeah. So how do you guys make the decision on what cuts or materials to use on these products when there are so many options out there that you could potentially do? How do you narrow it down?

Matt Wade (41:23.863)
Like, like you said before, when you're asking how many calls were dropping this year, like 10 calls is a, is a good bit for any company to drop in a year, even if we're starting from the ground up. So we looked at probably a dozen different cuts and different, you know, stretches, different material thicknesses. Like Jimmy was saying, Jimmy, like you, like you were saying, Dan, I. A mouth call to me is probably like, I feel good if I buy 10 mouth calls, I feel pretty good with about three of them. That's about like, usually.

buy a bunch and then pick a few. that's what I'm using for the year. As I've gotten better at it, I'll go back to those calls that I put away that I couldn't use as well the year before. And, you know, I'll feel better about them. We picked these three really because they're all three of them are super user friendly. All three of them out of the package. I feel like I'm a really good example of a lot of our customers like kind of like you, for example, you're not a champion mouth caller, but

You need to be able to find a mouth call that's I'm to pull out of the package and I'm not going to do anything to it. And it's going to be, you know, it's going to be able to do everything I need to do these three calls. I feel satisfied that that need. And like I said, we've got, we've already got a dozen different cuts tested and you'll see some of those next year, but launching a dozen mouth calls, we just didn't want them to get lost. mean, this, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot to be said, but you go to the, you know, the hunting store and you're looking at, you know, 60 different.

cuts of mouth calls by 10 different companies. Like, it's like, what do I do? Am I going to really read the packaging for all these? They're going to know that with these three, especially that, you know, they're going to be user friendly, right? Of the package. So we've taken a lot of care to test different, you know, all the different options. And this is, this is what we settled on as the three best for this year.

Dan Johnson (43:10.85)
Who is Nightingale's demographic?

Matt Wade (43:16.084)
Everybody has a place at Night and Hail. Like you said, we've, you know, there's a lot of guys that grew up on Night and Hail and we want to bring back that luster. We want that consumer to come back. And like you said, you grew up on Night and Hail. You're starting to teach your kids. You have to be our storyteller. We have to make you believe in the products that we're selling so that you can be our marketing. That's the best marketing in the Turkey world is word of mouth and user experiences. So everybody's our demographic. Like I said, we're, we're thinking about

you know, guys that are my dad's age right now when we're making products, we're thinking about my younger brothers who are just getting into turkey hunting that are in their early twenties and really honestly didn't have like, I didn't grow up in a house where everybody hunted. So I'm thinking about people that like your kids who are probably going to start super young or thinking about guys like me that are, you know, late to the game and probably don't have a mentor to bring them out. Man, I'm trying to think from every aspect.

what we what products make sense that everybody can use and you know that we can produce and do it well. So everybody's our demographic. mean, you do it differently when you're a kid and when you're you my grandpa's age. So there are different things that wouldn't work for both. But like our turkey vest, for example, it's if you're seven feet tall or three foot six, it has I think 12 points of adjustment. You can we got pictures from past shows where you've got like

The biggest guy at the show, the smallest kid wearing the same exact turkey vest and has that much adjustment. So we're, when develop products, we're trying to think of utility and, who's going to be using it.

Dan Johnson (44:54.018)
Right, right.

Jimmy (44:55.07)
That's a great answer and I agree with you Matt. Our demographics is everyone Dan and you know, I think Harold and David started this company not to get rich, right? But to make a little money to go hunt in another state. And what they did or what night in hell, I mean even for me,

They created a product that helped create a memory that is long lasting, just like you stated in the beginning of this podcast, right? And it still sits with you. So, you know, as I get older, you know, and I'm taking the kids hunting, they see the brand, they see what I'm using, you know, in our hopes that...

everyone that takes their kids' hope hunting have an opportunity to share that memory and they share it with the Nightingale product. And that's long lasting. can't buy that. Granted, the call costs money, that's invaluable to me. And I think that's David and Harold's, that was their ultimate goal, man.

Dan Johnson (45:59.639)
Yep, yep. All right, there's a guy, he walks into a Bass Pro shop or Cabela's or any store that sells turkey hunting equipment. And there's a wall of all your stuff, all the competitors. Why should that guy choose Nightingale?

Jimmy (46:22.333)
because he gets a quality product. When you look at the space right now and where we've priced ourselves and Matt's done a bunch of analysis.

on this on this category but when you look at our pricing we're a USA made call what I would consider a custom call at a little bit lower price right so affordability is important and and with that being said you get a custom made call made by a turkey hunter at a great price

Matt Wade (47:00.055)
not at a show either. You can find us at your local retailer. Sometimes there are a lot of great call makers out there and who you could put their calls up against anybody, but you can't easily access them. They're not selling to every consumer out there. We're going to be everywhere. You can find Turkey calls and that can be a good thing and a bad thing, we're not a mass produced Turkey call like some of the others out there.

We're taking, we're making a lot of calls. plan on making a lot of calls, but I mean, we're taking time and care to make each one custom and to, you know, tune to that, to that Hunter that's got it in their hands.

Dan Johnson (47:42.563)
Yeah, well, I mean, even as a guy who I would say turkey hunting is my second, right, to deer hunting. When you, when you start saying, well, this product is made by an actual turkey hunter. This product is made in the USA. Man, that sounds pretty darn good to me already. Right. And so, I mean, even there's even people out there who say, and I'll pay more for a USA made product. I'll pay more for a product that's made by a guy who's doing the same thing that I'm doing.

And then you also tell me it's affordable. That just seems like a no brainer to me anyway.

Matt Wade (48:18.121)
And I think Turkey, Turkey Hunters, especially like you go to those shows like go to NWTF. I would I would love to hear a figure of the number of calls and just the amount of money that's spent by Turkey Hunters at NWTF because I don't need any more calls. I have calls coming out my ears, but, you know, I can't go somewhere and not buy at least a mouth call or at least, you know, something when I go to a show like that. And it's it's something that

Like my kids may not be as into turkey hunting as I am, but I look at it. Like I said, I didn't grow up in a turkey on family. Like I long for the grandpa who Turkey is going to pass down that call. He's had in his vest for 30 years. And that call that you can't find anymore that maybe Nightingale produced back in the eighties and grandpa's got it in his shoe box. He paid 10 bucks for it. And it's priceless. Turkey hunters and turkey calls and gear are just as just different. Like if I lose my turkey vest.

I can go find another best. You know, they're the, the, best that we make are the accuracy and the sewing and everything else. Like it's down to like, could pick my best. You could grab off the shelf and it's going to be the exact same. That's where quality matters there. But with a Turkey call, like I said, each call is different and each strikers different, each piece is different. And it just makes it as Turkey Collins, Turkey calls are just different. So we're taking care.

Dan Johnson (49:41.603)
Yeah, absolutely. Gentlemen, mean, the website is for a good starter is night and hail dot com slash products. And it's going to give a list of all the products that are currently available. When are you guys planning on having everything ready up and running as far as the new products are concerned?

Matt Wade (50:06.122)
Everything is in stock now, but we are, I think we may have one or two that are coming in that are at our warehouse right now that being checked in like today or tomorrow, the last pieces, but we're in stock now. We've already launched everything on social media. trying to get, you know, get people back in the know. Like Jimmy said, we had like, it's like 35,000 followers for a dormant account that hadn't posted in, you know, six years. So we've been doing what we can to kind of revitalize, you know, the

Jimmy (50:06.429)
Thank

Matt Wade (50:36.21)
marketing side of it, but our big launch is really in WTF. We're to be at booth one zero four nine and, you know, Harold's going to be in the booth. He'll be there to sign calls, talk Turkey with everybody. And it's like, I can, I can try to sell you a call. Jimmy can make a call sound, you know, like a champion, like a champion Turkey call better than I can, but people are going to want to see Harold. He's going to be in the booth and he's going to be, you know,

hand tuning calls for folks, talking turkey, telling stories. I'm reaching out to all customers and old contacts that we had to see if they can come by the booth. And it's going to be kind kind of a revival.

Jimmy (51:15.345)
It's a family reunion, Dan, and you're invited. Like I said, we're glad to have you back.

Dan Johnson (51:20.376)
Perfect, perfect. Well, gentlemen, I really appreciate you taking time out of your day to hop on and chat with us a little bit about Night and Hail and the resurgence and the rebirth of the brand. Thank you very much and good luck at the NWTF show.

Jimmy (51:36.862)
Thank you, appreciate it.