Zero Outfitter Fees w/ Dan Adler

In this engaging podcast episode, Brian Krebs interviews Dan Adler, a prominent figure in the hunting industry and the founder of Diamond Outfitters. The conversation coversDan's transition from a military career to becoming a leading outfitter, his passion for elk hunting, and the unique experiences that different game species offer. They discuss the importance of conservation in North America, the challenges facing hunting today, and the mindset required for successful hunting. Dan shares insights on the growth of his business and the thrill of the hunt, both in the field and in entrepreneurship. 

In this conversation, Dan Adler discusses the importance of mindset in hunting, the motivations behind clients seeking outfitting services, and the evolution of hunting demographics. He introduces the innovative Zero Outfitter Fees (ZOF) program, which aims to make guided hunts more accessible and affordable. The discussion also covers how ZOF operates, the significance of draw odds, and the benefits of membership, all while maintaining the integrity of the program in relation to state regulations. In this conversation, Dan Adler and Brian Krebs discuss the intricacies of hunting schedules, the future of Zero Outfitter Fees, and the financial aspects of hunting applications. They explore the concept of draw odds and the ladder effect in hunting, emphasizing the value of guided hunts compared to DIY approaches. The discussion also touches on the growth of Adler's business and the importance of client relationships in scaling the operation.

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Brian Krebs (00:00.183)

And so I'll tag the Instagram pages when those go up as well. So you see both when the show goes live and when those go live. It looks like things are uploading smoothly. So I'll get us kicked off here, do a pretty short intro, and then we'll just dive right into it. Awesome.

Welcome back to another Western rookie podcast brought to you by Go Hunt. We've got a really interesting podcast lined up for you all today because we've got Dan Adler from a lot of things to be quite honest. You're from Diamond Outfitters. You are a part of the ZOF program, which I think listeners are really going to like when we get to that later in the episode. And you've also had a complete career before all of this. So you've done a lot and it looks like you've been to a lot of places from the background of your video.

I'm seeing a giant beautiful elk, a couple of plains game animals from Africa. So sounds like you do quite a bit of outdoors trips yourself. So I'm really excited for this podcast, Dan. Glad to have you here. Hope things are going well coming into the Christmas season for you, but what's going on today?

Dan Adler (01:03.756)

Yeah, thanks Brian. Thanks for having me. It's great to meet you. Great to meet your listeners and get to spend a little time with you. where a lot of the country is kind of winding down on their hunts. We still have over 150 hunts to do just in the next six or seven weeks, especially because in the Southwest, particularly Arizona and Sonora, Mexico, in some ways we're just getting started. We've got our Coos deer rut. We've got our desert mule deer rut. We've got our Sheldonnie mule deer rut, which is the Tiburon mule deer. And we've got the rock, the desert pig horn sheep down in Sonora here for the next couple of months.

than Arizona in January and beyond. We've got a ton of our mountain lion hunts are still going on. We've got our bison hunts coming in, our turkey hunts, and also our orcs hunts on private land in New Mexico. So while a lot of my friends are getting ready to wind down for their season, we're kind of just getting started. And for me, Brian, I have the additional blessing. People may not see it that way, but I get to speak at all the national hunting conventions. So I'll be at Dallas Safari Club in a couple of weeks. I'll be at the Wild Sheep Foundation in three weeks. I'll be in a month at...

Safari Club International in Nashville. So we're just getting started on our, our hunting and marketing season, but it's been a great season so far. And you're exactly right. I'm blessed to have had a great military career. I graduated from the university of Arizona, went immediately into active duty as a second lieutenant. It's been about 10 years on active duty and almost twice that in reserves and inactive reserves after that. And it was in that time between getting out of the military and going to the reserve side of it.

that as especially when I was getting out, I started reading some entrepreneurial books by like Robert Kiyosaki and some of those other guys. Because when I went in, I always thought, you know, I would do a 20, 30 year career and get out and get a pension. But while I was in, I really started learning about entrepreneurship. And I had a couple of the friends that I served with going entrepreneurship. And it's like, well, let me give this guiding thing a try. And who knew, you know, 19 years ago, I'd be talking to you now as the largest outfitter in North America. And I

I don't say that to pound my chest. All the credit is my team. mean, Mike, Matt, Lane, Daniel, go down the list over 60 team members that have just fundamentally changed the footprint of Western big game hunting. And as a result of that blessing, we've been able to pass that blessing on not only to our clients, but also to philanthropic organizations, including donations within the hunting community to these great charities that preserve conservation, the second amendment.

Brian Krebs (03:02.358)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (03:23.49)

We're just getting started. definitely really busy, but that transition from military to corporate to hunting and guiding has been an amazing blessing over the last 19 years. do hundreds of hunts in six states, two countries. And then as you mentioned with the critters behind me, we've got some amazing alliances in places like Ireland, Argentina, all over Africa, you multiple countries in Africa, New Zealand, Australia. And, you know, it's funny every time I have success somewhere.

On a hunt, usually take groups. Usually I take a group of clients and we reserve a whole camp and, you know, or get a great trophy or like, well, that's fun. I checked that off the list. Let's go see what's on the next list. But as you probably know, Brian, some of these species, they just become more addictive and you just have to keep going back for them. So it's, it's, it's a pretty neat industry we're in.

Brian Krebs (04:05.909)

Yeah. Yeah, Elk is the one for me where I think a lot of people view a Rocky Mountain elk hunt and they might have read a Field and Stream article or a Bugle magazine article or they saw Primos do a video, you know, on the camp way up in the black timber, wall tents, cook tent, big bugle and herd bull out in a park or a meadow down below.

And they were like, I want to do that someday. And you do it and you're like, I'm going to, I got to do this next year. Right. Like you, elk are one of those species to me that get addictive, especially, you know, we've primarily archery on an elk. And when you can hear a bull bugle inside of probably 60 yards, it's, it's like, it changes your perspective a little bit on, on the like natural world, right. Where there's this

Dan Adler (04:59.79)

Absolutely.

Brian Krebs (05:00.907)

There's this mountain horse with swords growing out of its head that sounds like a dinosaur and I'm trying to chase it down. Like, you know, like we always, feel like in the cities it's so easy to put ourselves in this viewpoint of like we are, we are at the top. We are the biggest, the baddest, like everything revolves around us. And that might be true for a large sense, because we come up with a lot of technology, but when you're on the mountain with a stick and a string running after these critters and you can't keep up,

If they want to leave, there's nothing you can do to keep with them. If they want to come in the other way, it's like, my gosh, it worked and now I'm in danger. Not really, but... And then you hear him bugle and you're like, how does something make that noise? Like I could yell at the top of my lungs and he'd be like, that was cute. It's just crazy.

Dan Adler (05:46.638)

Right. When people, when people first talked to me about elk, do you use the word dinosaur? And I love that word because I'll tell somebody straight up. If you've never been in the woods during an elk rut in September or October, this will be your modern day version of Jurassic park. And I mean, I'm even getting goosebumps saying that, like, I mean that in the most literal sense possible for the 24 years I've been with my wife, she literally scratches off the whole month of September, first 15 days of October.

Like it is religion to us out West for those of us, especially those of us that do it for a living. I'm often asked on my TV show on podcasts, like what is my favorite animal to hunt of all these things around the world? And a good friend of mine, a white river Apache named Bishy, who was one of my groomsmen of my wedding million years ago. He always told me never pick a favorite because they're all God's creatures. And I, I believe that and I respect that. I'll also add to that, you know, when I'm pressured, right? Like.

What is the ultimate hunt that we do? There is nothing like the elk rut in the Western United States. I've been in the roar in Argentina. I've been in the roar in New Zealand for the stag. It's a close second probably. And for those of in the Midwest that are really affect turkey hunting affectionatos, you can kind of understand the passion for the elk. So take your 20, 30 pound tom, be able to gobble his head off and now make them a 700 to 1,100 pound animal that either wants to kill you or rape you.

and it's a whole nother different world. there really isn't anything like the early season for Archery Elk, some of the firearms hunts out West. I love it when clients are like, well, we'd be in some kind of lodge or something like that. like, well, that's an option. However, like I'd much rather sleep with the bugle. Like I'd rather hear bugles keeping me up all night. And it's is nothing like it, right? Like nothing gives you that goosebump moment. Nothing will break you down. I can tell you stories of having a Navy seal.

Brian Krebs (07:16.769)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (07:43.182)

that I called an elk in for seven yards. And I was like 60 yards behind him. You know, I was doing my dance. I'd run over here and rake a tree, run over here and bugle, run over here and do a estrus cow call. And I'm like, okay, now he's going to kill him. And he didn't quite draw, but I could see him like going to draw. I'm like, you know how it is. My angle is different. So I'm like, maybe he doesn't have the good angle. So I go over here. I'm like, that thing's gotta be like eight yards. Now he should draw. And then I go to see him draw again. like, no, he didn't draw. What's going on? Well, this went on long enough and the bull finally walked off. And when I finally got up to him,

Brian Krebs (07:49.899)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (08:13.282)

before I could even ask, he's just like, dude, I totally cheese melted. And I learned a new term that day. And I was like, cheese melt. He's like, yeah, I totally cheese melt. I'm like, I don't even know what that means. He goes, dude, I couldn't draw my bow. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, you're a Navy seal. Something's wrong with your bow. I'm sure it's like, dude, I'm telling you, nothing's wrong with my bow. I totally cheese melted on that bowl. I'm like, well, before we do anything else, we're going back to camp and you're shooting at the target because I'm really concerned. Like you're a mountain of a man. You're like, he, like he, man.

Brian Krebs (08:23.744)

yeah.

Dan Adler (08:39.854)

We're going back to camp, of course, you know, the end of story, went to camp and he shot at 70 yards and bulls eye, no problem. He literally cheese melted. So I learned a new term that, that day and hard to beat the elk. We do 17 different big game species out here, Brian, but you're right. Bugle's tough to beat.

Brian Krebs (08:53.931)

Yeah, there's a few things that they really, every species has their thing, right? That makes them fun. So like your friend's point of view, you're right. Like there's like, couldn't pick one forever, but if you gave me a week off, I'm going to pick September, the third week of September, right? Like if I only get one to do this year, that's probably the one I would pick. I don't want to do it forever. I want to be able to do the other things as well. And every species has those things. I think antelope,

As crazy as it sounds like the antelope rut can be intense, but it's nothing like a heavy Midwest whitetail rut. but you get to do it like type one fun the entire time laughing. It's like waterfall hunting after you get all the decoys out and you're just waiting for birds to fly. Like you're joking with the guys you're talking, you're laughing.

Right? We're just here. Like we're waiting. And Antelope's the same way. Like you don't have to be super quiet until you get out on the stock. You don't have to wake up super early. You don't have to climb to the top of the mountain in the dark. You don't have to pack out a refrigerator when you pull it off. Like there's nothing hard about it. If you get really picky and you're doing like a public land booner, that can be a little tricky, but it's still not physically hard. And that's like the species. That's like the thing that's special about it. It's a great thing to bring new people out on if you're doing like a DIY.

Dan Adler (10:03.886)

Sure. Yeah.

Brian Krebs (10:12.807)

know, whitetail, the extreme rut, mule deer, the just like the, I feel like mule deer are more, in a way they're sometimes more iconic, but I think it's because they tend to be out in the open more. Like you don't see a giant 350 inch bull in the skyline very often in very many places, they just don't go there. So when you think of like Colorado, you think of a mule deer on top of a ridge. And that's what makes that species the greatest. And I always think like what if an animal like moose

could do a respective level of noise to an elk, but they're twice as big. That's the thing I always think of is like, what if moose got a bugle? Because now you're talking like a 1,500 pound to a 2,000 pound bull bugling in your face that's towering over you. Like you look an elk in the eyes. When an elk walks in, you're looking at him in the eyes, which is still pretty weird. It's a weird thing. When you see a moose, he's looking down on you.

Dan Adler (11:08.43)

Absolutely. remember the first time I ever walked up on a moose, with Alaska Joe, and I was mentally prepared. This client had shot when I was up there as a packer, this has been 10, 12 years, maybe more. And I went up there for a few years as a packer, cause we're looking at expanding diamond outfitters, possibly into Alaska. And so I went up there for several years. made amazing television for best of the West episodes on it. And one of the clients had shot a moose. And so I'm like mentally prepared to go pack this thing out. like, man, this thing's going to be like an elk and a half, like

Well, the legs from hoof to the top of the shoulder was taller than an elk by itself. I swear. Like I'll never forget this. And I was so grateful that literally where this client had killed this bull moose was 800 yards, almost flat to the airstrip on Tundra. So in the Tundra, he still sank down quite a bit. but what would have been one pack out for me and my guys on an elk was two and a half pack outs.

And think about this, like a heavy elk quarter, if you take a hind quarter right on an elk, could be, it could be 60, 70, maybe even 80 pounds. Alaska Joe carried out the full cape and full head of this moose in one load. And that thing alone was over a hundred pounds. So, you know, when you talk about the magnificence of, of, especially like the Yukon species of moose, they have, they, they're very vocal at close range. It's that quieter little grunt, but yeah, if they had a full, full blown bugle, like an elk,

That would taste a lot of men out of the woods. Like that would be such an intimidating sound just to consider that. That would be pretty impressive. But yeah, we have some amazing iconic animals out West. I mean, this country is just, we're so blessed to be in North America, right? Like the amount of wildlife we have here, the North American conservation model, Teddy Roosevelt installed, like we're so blessed to live in this country. And if you think about it too, Brian, like not to go off on too big a tangent, but there's like Ted Nugent always says, you can't do this in France, baby. Like there's so few countries where you can hunt public land. can hunt your own private land.

Hunting is safe for royalty in a lot of places. So I really am grateful. I say every day, I don't have a job. I have the greatest job in the world, but I don't have a job. It really is a lifestyle. And I just get to lead these amazing men and women that are our guides and our staff. And I'm just blessed to be in the industry, quite frankly.

Brian Krebs (13:13.141)

Yeah, and if you even think about it, there's very few places in the world that even have the diversity of game that we have. mean, Africa's got more, for sure. There's a lot more species in Africa. And then it's us, like North America, Canada, the US, and a little bit of Mexico. But like Europe, they have like some roe deer, and that's it. Like they don't have any bears, they don't have any cats, they don't have any...

There's just nothing there. Like, what would you even hunt? Like, a couple of pheasants? I mean, yeah, that's fun. But like, what happened? Like, I feel like something went wrong.

Dan Adler (13:51.49)

Yeah, now we're very blessed to have not only the amount of game out here, but the diversity of it. and what you really see in Europe and I've been able to do some trips over there is a lot of it is safe for the, you know, the top 1 % income earners on private land. So, you know, there's a considerable amount of hunting there, but the access is nothing like what we're so blessed. And we probably quite frankly, at this point, take it for granted here in the United States. mean,

Brian Krebs (14:05.686)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (14:14.685)

yeah, I mean...

Dan Adler (14:14.988)

I'm not prevented from hunting in any of the 50 states. just need the right permit, the right license. Same with you, same with everybody else and same with international hunters coming here. We can't just pick up tomorrow. You and I jump on an airplane, go hunt in Germany. It's going to take a little bit of coordination. It's going to take a lot of paperwork. It's going to take sightings. It's going to take some effort and it's going to take land. There's just not the access. So the things we're doing here to keep access, to keep public land. then, you know, for those that do manage their private land right, they're seeing the results of letting them.

a whitetail get past three and a half years old. mean, it's amazing what we've been able to do. And some of the success stories, whether it's elk or it's whitetail or it's turkey or it's antelope, the amount of species we bought back from near extinction through this conservation model is second to none in the world.

Brian Krebs (14:59.637)

Yeah, and just a little caveat. I mean, it looks like we're starting to see some real concerning things coming out of Utah right now with the Utah. don't know all the details. I'm kind of getting secondhand knowledge. I should research it more. it seems like Utah is trying to try a legal case that says it's unlawful for federal lands in Utah for certain parts of BLM. And basically what they're trying to do is transfer public land into private ownership.

is the end there. That's what their goal is. They wouldn't say that, but you can see you can read between the lines and see what they want. And that's very concerning. Like you said, like that that turns it into France, right? It's the Kings game.

Dan Adler (15:37.634)

Yeah, there's a of places, a lot of places you can't do this. We're constantly under attack. I've heard in the last couple of months since the election, how happy people in the hunting or hunting community is because of the election. But that what I've been saying is that's not a reason to let your guard down. Like the animal rights activists, the anti-hunters, they're just more pissed off now than they've ever been. So, you know, we saw it last month on the, in, Colorado last, this earlier in the year where they released wolves, but then thank God they did not pass the amendment at the polls.

to ban the hunting of cats. And now that same group or similar groups are here in Arizona trying to start a lawsuit to stop our cat hunting and bear hunting with hounds, which maybe sounds nice on the surface that for whatever unknown scientific reason they may think, but the reality is Arizona is the number one hunting state in the United States for a reason and predator control is a large part of that reason. So I don't think it'll go anywhere, but you're right. I mean, we're constantly under attack.

We've got to stand our guard. We've got to make sure we're involved with Second Amendment conservation organizations or we're just going to lose it.

Brian Krebs (16:41.407)

Yeah, yeah, it's really, it's it really is concerning. And it's good to see when we pull things off like Dan Gates and, and, and I really write like the way Randy Newberg decides is like, I'm not left or right, like, I got to work with both because, you know, the animals don't care, the land doesn't care. And quite frankly, like sometimes the right doesn't have the best track record of conservation. Sometimes, you know, industry and economic growth takes too much of a priority and

All of we end up with a million wells on public land or a bunch of solar panels or whatever it might be. It's not always great. We think it is. Yeah, they're usually pretty supportive of the Second Amendment, but sometimes conservation gets a blind eye to the economic growth aspect of that party. so you got to just kind of, like you said, you always got to be aware anything can happen at any time. yeah, it's good to have groups out there that fight those things for sure.

Switching gears just a slight bit here. So Diamond Outfitters is based out of Arizona, but you're in all kinds of states. So you, when you started as an outfitter, I assume you started, had to get like some sort of guiding license and work for an outfitter for a short period of time. And then did you start Diamond Outfitters just locally? And then it was just like a capacity issue. Like you started getting more requests than you could handle. And now we got to hire guides and we got to expand and, and then it just

it kept growing into what it is now. mean, it seems like there would be, it'd be very hard to say, I'm gonna start the world's largest outfit and company, but that's what you've done.

Dan Adler (18:18.958)

Yeah, it it wasn't the, I don't want say it wasn't the goal, but it wasn't the apparent goal at the time. In fact, I remember when I first started telling people I was going to get out of the military and open a guide business, they were all there. Their response, you know, this is 20, 21 years ago was like, well, that's cute, right? What else are you going to do to make a living? I'm kind of self motivated, self inspired. so having a friend or family member kind of laugh at my ideas sometimes will like just the right amount of fire in my belly to get it done.

Brian Krebs (18:35.211)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (18:44.588)

So yeah, my intent when I started, so when I left the military, I'd already been studying some entrepreneurship books. Arizona is one of the easiest, I'm going to say easiest states to get a guide license in, in the sense that you just have to pass a test. Some states like Kansas don't even have a guide or outfitter license. And then some states like Alaska, there's a process. You got to be an apprentice and then you got to be an assistant guide and then you can be a guide and then you can be a registered guide. I think that's pretty close to their process. In other states, you have to be a guide before you can be an outfitter.

Brian Krebs (18:56.705)

Okay.

Dan Adler (19:12.142)

Arizona didn't do that. Arizona just says you pass the test and they don't have, they don't recognize outfitters different from guides. So in that sense, I was very fortunate. So I did start the business by myself with my wife in 2004 and we officially became an LLC in 2005, 2006 timeframe. And what we did, Brian, was we bootstrapped everything. So we took money I had saved in the military to finance it because we lost a lot of money in the first few years we did this. And there were times where we were considering other options and if this was the right thing.

Brian Krebs (19:18.135)

Mm.

Dan Adler (19:41.656)

The other thing at the time was I wasn't living in, you know, central Northern Arizona, 15 minutes from elk country and Prescott at the time we were living in Tucson, where I was stationed in the air force. And so we were down in the desert. So anytime I wanted to go scouting up North, anytime I wanted to go check trail cameras, cause back then we could have trail cameras in Arizona. Anytime I wanted to go look at Kaibab up mule deer or elk on the coconut, you know, it was a, it was an all day type thing. So, you know, I would go for days and weeks at a time, the first couple of years of the business without even coming back to Tucson because.

It did make sense to drive four hours home to turn around and go back four hours to the next camp. So I literally went camp to camp to camp for years in the fall without a lodge. So I was doing these out of Kodiak tents. I'd go from camp to camp. And yeah, after a couple of years, thanks to great clients and some good old fashioned luck and hard work, what happened was being fortunate enough to live in Arizona, we killed some tremendous animals, some tremendous mule deer, some tremendous coos deer, some tremendous bull elk.

Brian Krebs (20:16.715)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (20:35.807)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (20:40.598)

And then through word of mouth, this thing really kind of started to take off. And that's when I started, was in our third year that I started hiring some guides. And then at about our eighth year was when, my public speaking career really took off and when best of the West put me on their TV show for a decade. And I think all those things kind of aligned, having a presence at all the national trade shows and doing hunting seminars on elk or mule deer or coos deer.

Brian Krebs (20:59.308)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (21:09.196)

or how the draw process works. That just kind of put us out in an audience. And I just enjoy that stuff, right? So a lot of people in my industry, they hate the trade shows. They hate anything in the public eye. We just want to be in the woods all the time. I'm the one that wants both. I want to meet the people where they're coming and I want to see them in the woods. So the business kind of took off from there. And then I just made great alliances. Some of them were through the TV show. So I hunt with them, they hunt with me. They're in the outfitting business.

Brian Krebs (21:26.187)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (21:37.08)

what we call diamond standard here internally and we're able to grow the business. then a lot of the international hunts we did were through the TV show, we would take groups of purple hearts to some of these different countries and go on big game hunts out there and build the philanthropic side and kind of do the right thing and take care of America's heroes. And it just kind of snowballed. Today we're in six states. I say two countries, the United States and Sonora, but our alliances and overseas are just phenomenal. Whether it's Europe or South America, Asia, Africa,

We just have these amazing alliances because who you're in business with matters. say it all the time at our team meetings. And so we're kind of picky about what that process looks like. We were very defensive of our reputation, obviously, and it just kind of kept growing and growing. And now even today, like I'm still having meetings with expanding into more states, more countries. It's the entrepreneurial blessing and curse, but you talked about at the beginning about a bad guide experience that you kind of had and.

Brian Krebs (22:27.007)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (22:33.358)

And being a DIY and that's one of the reasons I was still active duty in the military and I'd gone on a bad hunt in Colorado. And I was like, really? Like this is, this is the guide industry. I'm like, the clients deserve better. The industry deserves better and the image of hunters deserves better. And it was on that mountainside in Colorado, circa 2001, 2002 that I just literally, I think I said all out around the campfire. I'm going to start a guide business someday. And, I was still active duty. I was still probably thinking it would be another 10 or 15 years till I did it. But,

You know, I doubled down on the belief in myself. have a wife that really supports my addiction and, and, and is now in the business. Last five years, she's been full time in the business. She retired from physical therapy to be full business and full time in the business. And it really blew up from there. And as I said, like, while most of my buddies are starting to wind down, we still have so many hunts in front of us, plus the marketing season in front of us. So in a lot of ways, it's a crazy time of year, but I kind of thrive on crazy a little bit and I'm excited for the next several weeks.

Brian Krebs (23:26.805)

Yeah. Yeah, I find I don't probably have nearly the entrepreneurial spirit that you do. I mean, you've been doing it for way longer, but I do find that I think it's maybe an aspect of it that like I don't do well with an empty schedule. I like it's like the it's like the. Like to me, the momentum almost is the fuel. And so like when things get slow, I'm like, I don't know.

Dan Adler (23:50.627)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (23:54.645)

You know what mean? You just kind of like you get lazy and then I start taking on more projects and then things pick up and now I have too much again. You know what mean? But when I have like a consistently high calendar, full calendar, it's like go, go, go, go, go. Like I'm more efficient. The efficiency follows, right? It's like I get the same amount, like the same amount of energy, but with a full calendar, I get it all done. With an empty calendar, I get none of it done and I put the same amount of energy into it. And so that's kind of where I feel like

I hear what you're saying a little bit. It's kind of like the curse of entrepreneurship. You know, you're happy but still hungry. And some people don't get the point of like, they're separate. Just because I'm hungry doesn't mean I'm not happy with what we've done.

Dan Adler (24:33.816)

Yeah, at some point it's...

Dan Adler (24:39.726)

Yeah, one of my good buddies, Greg, he's been with me since fifth grade. In fact, he's the one that introduced me to hunting. And a couple of years ago, we launched our 18th or 19th LLC, right? And so, you know, even outside of hunting, we've got these other companies that we do. And my buddy, Greg, who's probably knows me better than anybody, arguably better than my wife, only because he's been with me since I was eight, nine years old. He literally said, when's it ever going to be enough? And I thought to myself, what does that even mean? Like, when's it going to be enough? Like it's not the money or these other things. It's like, it's the thrill of the hunt.

Brian Krebs (25:09.781)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (25:10.062)

And I don't mean that just in the physical hunting space. Like it's the thrill of the hunt of growing the business. Like, Hey, I've taken this client on an amazing experience in New Mexico. We've taken this client on amazing experience in Ireland. We've taken this client on an amazing experience in Utah. Why couldn't we take him to Kansas? Why couldn't we take him gator hunting in Florida? Like I don't do gator hunting in Florida yet, but if he's like, Hey, I want to go gator hunting in Florida and I want you to take me. I'm the idiot that would probably be calling Florida game and fishing. like, what do need to do to take this guy on a hunt instead of just calling a buddy down there? Now I probably would these days. I'd probably.

make a connection down in Florida and set up something. And I've actually hunted Florida Gator with guys. So it's probably not even a good example, but it is the thrill of the hunt. So it's the thrill of the hunt when I'm in the field. And it's a thrill of the hunt in business when I'm running the business from the office. And you can appreciate this. You've probably had people tell you this too, or you've experienced it yourself. I always say there's hunters and there's killers. And it's okay, whichever one you are.

Brian Krebs (25:41.985)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (26:02.807)

Mm.

Dan Adler (26:05.902)

It's okay. Like you can be a hunter and that's fine. And you can be a killer and that's fine. And I'm probably a little slanted in my interpretation of because of my years in the military, but I will tell you, and you know, these guys, there are guys that consistently harvest every year, whether they're an elk hunter or a whitetail hunter, Turkey hunter, and there are guys that casually are successful. And then there's some that are just lucky, but let's throw the luck aspect out of it for a second. There's hunters and there's killers. And you know, I'm here on a podcast with you. It's jovial, it's light, it's fun. And if you were in elk camp with me, I would be the same light jovial guy having fun with you.

Brian Krebs (26:06.124)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (26:35.5)

until I'm not. And when am I not? When that first bugle rips and I recognize that bugle and I know that's one of our shooter bulls by its voice, that's when I turn to you and my voice changes, my demeanor changes, my attitude changes, my everything changes. And I'm not being a jerk to you now. I'm not being different, but now it's kill mode, right? And I don't go hope that we're going to go get that bull. Like my full expectation is you are going to kill this bull. And so my demeanor changes, I've even had people say in the mouth like,

Dude, I think you just flipped into Captain Adler on me. I'm like, what do you mean? And this is later in camp. Like, I think you flipped into Captain Alec. I've never heard you talk like that or be so directive. I'm like, dude, that's what you paid me for. You wrote a big check to be here. And when that bull ripped off that bugle and I knew that was one of our shooters, like I went into kill mode because now I'm in charge. Now I know what to do. Now I'm not hoping something's going to happen. I'm making things happen. Now I'm not, what do think we should do? Like, I already know what we're going to do. It's full mission execution. Let's go get that thing killed right now. Let's go.

Brian Krebs (27:15.19)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (27:33.618)

And then as soon as he's down, high five you, hug you, say a prayer with you, whatever you want to do. I can go back into Joe Wheel Fund Dan, but there's hunters and there's killers and it's okay whichever one you identify yourself as, but it will play out in the field, which one you are.

Brian Krebs (27:40.075)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (27:48.171)

We talk about that quite a bit and we had an experience with it this year. Me and my wife went antelope hunting for our first western hunt together. She just got done with residency and finally was able to actually go on a western hunt with me versus just watching me pull out of the driveway for the last seven years. And there was, know, like are you on this one, that one, where do you want to go? What do think of him? You know, for the first four days. And then when we had one, kind of like you said, like it's all a sudden.

It's not that like you're trying to be mean, but when you start cutting out the pleasantry words of a sentence, it starts to sound pretty aggressive pretty fast. You know what mean? Like, yeah, very, like you said, very directive. Like I'm giving you a direction. I'm not asking you if you want to do that. I'm telling you. And for me, a lot of times like I'll be, I was, you know, we're going in after this buck and

Dan Adler (28:27.788)

Yeah, almost militant, right?

Brian Krebs (28:43.639)

He dipped down into a cut and we needed to cut the distance quite a bit to get a good ethical shot for her. Because we knew we'd been shooting all summer. We knew, and this was our first hunt, we weren't going to stretch any limits here. So I'm like, I want to get to 150 or in. And all of our small critters, for a lot of people that like to brag about how far they can shoot, that kill zone's not very big. And so we're trying to get in there. And so he dips down. so for me, as soon as he's out of sight, we're running. We're sprinting. Because it's a prairie. It's a savanna. There's no hide anyway. So there's no point being stealthy.

We're going to run as fast as we can. Well, we can't, well, he can't see us. And then as soon as he sees us again, we're to stop. And so I take off and I just kind of like, I'm watching him and I just do a snap and like a point, like stay on my hip, which we talked about it afterwards was perceived very aggressive, but I'm like, I'm, my eyes are forward. I'm watching him. can't, I'm not, I don't want to take my eyes off him because we're running. And so I got to give you a sign language of, of visual cue, right? Nonverbal, which nonverbal it's very hard to.

Dan Adler (29:30.424)

Sure.

Brian Krebs (29:42.741)

to convey the entire intent as well. And so I get you mean completely and we mean my brother talk about it a lot. My brother's killer. He's shot four or five bulls with his bow DIY public land. He's missed one, I think. And it's because the boulders took off right when he's aero flu. So he shot a ghost. But it's like consistently and there's a lot of other people I have bad luck man, like

Comical luck when it comes to elk hunting He shot two bulls that I have just gotten myself into bad luck for and so it's like I don't know yet because I haven't had that situation but we have other people in the group where it's like, know what I mean, like they cheese-melted or it's like You know, they just didn't have the killer instinct. I think some people are born with it I'm sure you agree because you've probably seen a lot of those individuals throughout your career Like this person was born a killer like some people might be born a little bit too much of a killer We should keep a close eye on them

And some people aren't but I do think you can build it I think you can build it with reps shoot a lot of does with your bow back at your farm shoot a lot of things You know do some cold shots at a hundred yards with your bow where you could lose a $30 arrow get that a journal and go and I think reps can help build you that killer mentality so you know Do I draw it before he crosses the tree or after do I do this? Do I do that? You just got to know like there's no time in the elk woods. No one's trimming lanes for you

You know what mean? Like us whitetail hunters, like to wait till he gets into our nice opening that we trimmed. There's no lanes out west. I've had bulls within 20 yards. I called a bull into 20 yards from a guy. We could only see his force in his fist. That's the only thing we could see. He 20 yards away. We couldn't see a damn thing. I'm like, I don't know what to do, Adam. I'm I am not Corey Jacobson. I don't think I could call this bull any closer to you than 20 yards. And I'm already like trying to go down the hill, pull him, pull him as much as I can to you.

Dan Adler (31:14.264)

Yeah, of course.

Brian Krebs (31:38.391)

I feel like we just got unlucky on this one. I don't know what to tell you.

Dan Adler (31:41.646)

Yeah, it happens all the time. You're going to get in that situation where, you know, it's just not going to work out even when you do everything right. You know, we got to, I always like to say whether you kill an animal or not is between you and God, my job to arrange the meeting. Right. So, you know, a big part of it too, that I talked a little bit about publicly is when it comes to a hunter versus a killer mindset is, it so much of it is our brain.

Brian Krebs (31:54.486)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (32:05.964)

So our brain, you know, without going too deep in this, you know, we have these neuro paths, right? There's these literal channels in our brains that memories create. Well, if we can dress rehearse as many elk hunts as you said, like you said, or, or be in a place where you live, where you can get a lot of does every year and get those reps, get those reps, get those reps, and then just have these, you know, I don't know, read a mindset book, but really get understand that, the outcome of your hunt, your brain can't do anything that it doesn't believe you can. So if you don't think you can go up that hill, you can't.

go up that hill like your body physically won't let you. But if you tell your brain, can go up that hill. Yeah, I'm tired. My knees hurt. It's been a long six day hunt, but I actually can go up that hunt. Like your brain just will follow. And I know it sounds pie in the sky, a little foofy to some people, but I live it. Like we've killed over 700 bull elk in the last 19 years. That's you can ask my back and my knees if that's true. And a lot of it, the guys that I killer versus hunters, I do see a lot of it's in their mind. Like they're totally mentally prepared. Cause a lot of us as hunters, you know, we shoot our bows year round. They shoot their rifles year round.

They do all the things that we've got to do, but the actual mindset of it, you know, you think about sports teams, they have practice, right? They have practice like my son's the college baseball player. He's got practice five or six days a week, sometimes two days. And in the conversation I always have with that team and other coaches is, okay, we're doing the physical, but if we know elk hunting, deer hunting, turkey hunting, bison hunting is 90 % mental. What are we doing for that? So I think there's, I think that often gets overlooked is just how much mental training we can do.

and just understanding how powerful a tool your brain is, especially when it comes to hunting. And that is what differentiates in some cases, hunters from killers is those guys that are really control their brains, really control their thoughts. They can kind of see the outcome before it happens. I always think about Tim, Tim Grover's book, Relentless, which I was cheering against Michael Jordan as a kid, but I know he was the greatest of all time. And this guy was his trainer and just talks about the mindset of that guy. And in a Robert Kurosaki, I mentioned at the beginning, the mindset around money or finance.

Michael Jordan around basketball, you and I around hunting. Like you really, even when I come into my camp every day, as soon as I walk into the wall tent, I don't care if it's just my cook and my guides or if all the clients there, I always say the same thing every day. Like my guides know it's coming. I walk in a tent and I say, today's the day. And I smack somebody on the back. And what did I say the day before? Today's the day. And was I right? No, cause not everybody tagged out, but mentally I was prepared today was the day. And when it wasn't, then tomorrow's the day. Like,

Brian Krebs (34:27.254)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (34:30.926)

There's no quit, there's the stick-to-it-ifs, and we're gonna keep going, we're gonna keep working. And eventually, that's why it's not a one-day hunt, right? That's why you're out here for seven, 10, 14 days. Eventually, today is gonna be the day when we're gonna be there to support you.

Brian Krebs (34:43.925)

Yeah. What do you notice on the people that come hunting with you? Maybe just focus on first time clients. Cause obviously if a client comes back, it changed your answer a little bit. Are you seeing a lot of people for the first time that are coming in and saying, Hey, I want to learn this hunting thing. Or are you seeing people that are coming in and then like, I'm a lifetime hunter. I want to do an experience that I, this is the shortest path going

It's like I want to shoot a 375 inch boon and Crockett bowl. You got to go where they live. They live in Arizona. They live in New Mexico. They live in Utah. They live in, you know, certain places in every state, but they're not over the, for the most part, they're not over the counter units. And if they are, they're very, very hard, right? So maybe even if they're there, that's not the shortest path versus I could go outfitted people that know where the elk are. They, this is their job. They have a bunch of experience getting on bowls and they might

provide me an opportunity that would be much harder and longer for me to do otherwise. You have those people, you have people that are like in the middle, like I just want to fund, whatever their thing is, what do you see as kind of the top couple, I would say like reasons why someone comes to you to an outfitter for the first time.

Dan Adler (35:59.726)

Yeah, I would say before zero output or if he started, it was a good mix of maybe 15 to 20 % new or newish hunters. And then 80 to 85 % either experienced or very experienced hunters. Because as we built our business and our reputation, which includes hundreds and hundreds of bulls, mule deer, coos deer, antelope, go down the list of the 17 species we guide for. There's a tremendous amount of value if you don't live in the states we guide in, even if you're

Brian Krebs (36:18.273)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (36:28.652)

extremely experienced, let's say elk, just because that's one of the things we're most known for. If you're experienced elk hunter and you back in the day when Colorado was over the counter and you went every year and, you went on the occasional hunt in one these other States, but then you get these more iconic States, the Arizona's, the New Mexico's, the Utah, Nevada's, the Wyoming's in some cases. Yeah, you may be a super experienced elk hunter, but you know, I've been doing this for 30 years. You know, I've been doing it as a business for 20 and I've been doing it for 30 and there's 61 guides in our company.

And the average experience on that is 20, 25 years. So 61 times 25 collectively, talking thousands, literally thousands of years of experience, right? Hundreds of hundreds or thousands of years of experience collectively. And. Customers see value in that customer's like, yeah, I'm a good elk hunter, but I know anything about Arizona. I don't know anything about the Gila, New Mexico. So they're going to come because they, can shoot a bowl. They can do their part, but they don't scout it year round. I kind of equate it to this. I'll ask a client, you know, during our conversation.

Brian Krebs (37:15.627)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (37:26.414)

what do do for a living? And let's just say the guy says, well, I'm an engineer. Well, cool. How long you've been doing it? Well, I've been doing it for 35 years. Well, are you pretty good at it? I'm really good at being an engineer. Well, cool. That same 35 years, you've been a good engineer. I've been, I've been in the Elkwoods. So I don't know how to build an airplane. If I wanted to build an airplane, I would call you, right? You know how to call out, you know how to hunt elk, but you don't know anything about where I live. I've been here 35 years, hunting the same mountain. know where the elk are. I know where they go pre-rut. I know where they go during the rut.

Brian Krebs (37:40.779)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (37:50.507)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (37:55.618)

I know where they go when they're under pressure. I know where they go after the rut. I know where they live. I know their bugles. I know their voices. And that's really that 80%. So there's been good numbers of new hunters. There's a great increase right now in female hunters and an okay increase in youth hunters. We got work to do there. And I said the first 15 years, but the last five years was zero outfitter fees. It's totally changed the demographics. We still have so many of our clients that have been with us for 19 years, but with zero outfitter fees,

You know, literally when you tell hunters, know, there's 11.3 million hunters bought a hunting license in United States last year. And when you can look somebody in the eye and say, if I can take you out West on a fully guided hunt for less money than a do it yourself hunt, would you do it? Everybody says yes, or at least 98 % say yes. There's always going to be a few that are like, I don't even want another body with me. I'm going to run to the biggest, deepest mountain. I'm going to live up there for a week. I don't want to be with another human. So no, I don't want to guide. There's always going to be that one or 2%. But what we have also found is.

Brian Krebs (38:40.726)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (38:53.762)

for years when Colorado was over the counter until recently, guys would go out to Colorado DIY. And some had tremendous success, but most didn't. It was like 14 % harvest in that demographic. And they'd go there year after year after year, and they'd have all this frustration and lack of success, or they'd kill a three or four point rag bowl, or maybe a two 60 inch six by six. And then at some point, they see what we're doing, they watch our TV show, they meet me at an event, they talk to our clients, which obviously is our best form of advertising.

And, I only put my autograph in these States on for elk hunts, for example, there are 300 to 350 bull hunts. So if you can be in your first day in a camp with us for free, right, through zero off-hitter fees and be on 300, 350 bulls, we're a lot of part-time guides. And I don't say this to disparage them. They're my friends, but 99%, if not 99.9 % of Western big game hunting guides are part-time. So they have other jobs. That's not a strike against them. That's just the reality of their circumstances. Well, because we're full-time, this is all we do. So because this is all we do, we're really good at it.

Brian Krebs (39:43.532)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (39:50.433)

Yes.

Dan Adler (39:52.408)

So when you come to one of our camps, day one, we're hunting specific bulls. We're not going out there like a lot of outfits are, scouting your first two or three days of your hunt. So being a professional versus being part-time makes a big difference to our clients. And I think that's where that ZOF momentum kind of kicked in for the zero outfitter fees guys.

Brian Krebs (40:08.277)

Yeah, the ZOF stuff when I started looking into your pitch, so what's ironic is I get pitched a lot of people through email now and it's pretty, I can even tell when it's just like pure AI that's running scripts and getting pitches and I read every one of them. But sometimes it'll be like, hey, we saw you have the Western hunting show and we'd like to pitch. It would be like Vivek Ramaswamy, right? For an example, everyone knows who he is, right? We could talk about all these AI bullet points and like

Dan Adler (40:19.659)

well.

Brian Krebs (40:37.915)

We could talk about starting a software tech company. We could talk about, you know, joining a momentum in the political arena. We could talk. It's like, okay, but that has zero to do with hunting. Yeah, Vivek's a cool guy, he's never hunted a day in his life. So why would I have him on my podcast? So a lot of them don't match, right? At all. And I looked at yours and your team did a better job because they included like more information about you and the links. And I looked it up and I'm like, this one actually makes sense. Like Dan is a Western hunter. He's a

Dan Adler (40:49.731)

Right.

Dan Adler (40:53.294)

Sure. Right.

Brian Krebs (41:07.371)

he's an outfitter. And then I saw ZOF through I think diamond outfitters. I'm like, nah, that's not true. There's no way I was like, I found it. That's the gimmick. This whole thing's fake, right? That's got to be fake. And so I looked into it I'm like, okay, well, it's clearly not fake. But I gotta know. I just I was like, I have to know what that is. So yeah, let's pivot into ZOF zero outfitter fees.

I'm not even gonna try to describe what it is because you're gonna do such a better job at it. So I'll just let you kind of talk through how it started and what it is.

Dan Adler (41:42.51)

Yeah. So I love this story because it fundamentally changed my life, but it fundamentally will change the life of tens of thousands of Western big game hunters. So it's been 10 or 12 years ago, I was a featured speaker in Birmingham, Alabama at the World Deer Expo. And they asked me to give a 90 minute seminar about hunting elk, which is probably my borderline, my favorite seminar to give. And it's evolved over the years and changed into several different seminars. But this particular one at the end of it, I had a gentleman named Jason.

And Jason came up to me and he was almost like shaking with a tear in his eye. was no more than 23 years old. He was like, that seminar is the coolest thing I think I've ever seen. I've never really learned much about elk. I've lived in Alabama my whole, or I lived in West Virginia my whole life. I came down to Alabama for the show, not even looking to learn about elk. I came down here to learn to become a better whitetail hunter in West Virginia. I said, what do you do? He says, I'm a coal miner. I'm like, God bless you, sir. You're like, this is some of our nation's hardest work. Thank you for what you do. That's, I can't even imagine being down in a coal mine now.

That's amazing. He said, well, I just want you to know that may take me my whole life to save up to go on an elk hunt with you, but I'm going to go on an elk hunt with you someday. And at the time our elk hunts were probably like 3,200 bucks, how times have changed. Right. And, so I went back to my booth and I told my wife about this guy, Jason, and how cool he was and he's going to do this and he's going to come by our booth tomorrow and register for the hunts. And, but that night, Brian, I like, couldn't sleep and

Brian Krebs (43:04.172)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (43:05.964)

What my brain was struggling with was this idea of this guy lives in a black hole 40 hours a week. And his mindset is it's going to take him his whole life to go on one big game hunt with me. I thought there's got to be a better way. There's got to be a system, a plan, a program that could work for a guy like him and everybody in his shoes, younger, less money in their pocket, but adamant about hunting and finding a way to go hunting out West. So in that sleepless night in my hotel room,

Inceptually, that's where Zero Outfitter Fees was born. And it took three or four years to launch it. But what we did was we said, okay, when I started this business, we talked earlier, know, circa 2006, my fully guided elk hunts in 2006, fully guided trophy bull elk hunts. And in 2006, Arizona was even better then than it is now. I mean, there's still no more in the country. But even then, like, you didn't shoot anything under 340. Now, maybe it's 320, 330, but still there was 400 inch bulls, there was 380 inch bulls, there's a lot of them.

Brian Krebs (43:38.764)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (44:05.676)

My fully guided elk hunt was 1,750 bucks back then. Prior to ZOF, my least expensive hunt now for non-ZOF guys are like 6,500 to 30 grand, right? In 20 years, we've priced out a lot of our clients. So I thought about my meeting with Jason and the West Virginia Coal Miner, thought about where our prices were then compared to where they were five years ago compared to where they've gone to today. And that's where zero outfitter fees came from. So what we decided to figure out was how do we make it where it's less expensive to go on a fully guided hunt than go on a DIY hunt?

Brian Krebs (44:10.551)

I'll give you that right now.

Yeah.

Dan Adler (44:34.594)

And you eliminate the frustration and you eliminate a lot of the expense and you eliminate a lot of the unnecessary time off of work and things like that. So the concept and what's playing out for hundreds of very happy clients is we operate in five states for zero outfitter fees, Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada. And that'll expand in the future. And for members of zero outfitter fees and members alone, you get to pick off all those five states as little as one animal or one hunt.

all the way up to 14 animals or 37 different hunts within this program. My office does all of your paperwork. You never have to remember a draw deadline. You never have to learn a good unit from a bad unit. Cause as you know, they change from year to year. You never have to worry about where the big wildfires were out West, where the where it's been dry and they're in a big drought, where the wolves and bears are tag increases and decreases disease. Like we do all of that. So not only do we do all of your paperwork,

for those five states, we'll even do your draw paperwork for free in the other 45 states. So you never have to remember a draw deadline in the United States of America again. And for these hunts we get you drawn for, we literally guide you for free. It could be, and it doesn't matter how many hunts you draw. If you draw two hunts in a year, three hunts in a year, I pay for all of them. So your $15,000 moose hunt, your $12,000 sheep hunt, $16,000 goat hunt, you get a contract with the price and then the next sentence is the price is zero, so your outfit or fees is paid for your hunt.

Now people don't have to be a zero outfitter fees client to hunt with diamond outfitters. As I said, I've got a lot of clients from last 20 years. Not all of them are, but Brian, it's a really funny conversation in a hunting camp where there's six elk hunters. Three of them are there for free and three of them have paid 13 to $15,000 and they're like, you know, I didn't know if that thing was real. Like I didn't know if I want to do that. And that's the biggest question I get is, is this too good to be true? That's the biggest question I get. And the shortest way I feel like I can answer that is in 2024 alone, just in 2024.

Brian Krebs (46:02.423)

Mm-hmm.

Dan Adler (46:27.47)

I paid for 54 clients hunts at over $600,000 in value. And since 2019, we're just under $2.2 million in the hunts that clients have drawn that if they were not hunters, they would have paid diamond outfitters, but instead, because they were members, they literally went for free. Now, when I say free clients still pay for their state license, their state tag, their app fee, and a guide tip and a cook tip. But we do all of your paperwork. We do all of your guiding, meals, lodging, everything.

Brian Krebs (46:38.368)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (46:53.366)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (46:56.812)

And we even have other benefits like travel perks and discounts on travel, discounts on hunting and fishing gear. Like you can make your membership pay for itself and most clients do. And that's kind of the magic and the inspiration behind it. And now it's setting the world on fire.

Brian Krebs (47:09.747)

Nice. So how does it work with the five states? Because, know, like, one of the things that we do here at the Western Rookie, and it's probably because I'm also an engineer, and I love numbers, but we get deep into draw odds. And I know a lot about a lot of places, not every unit across the West, that's just too much, you know, of a hose to drink through. But, you know, we cover all the

the draw deadlines, all of the application deadlines when you need to buy points. Like in Colorado, you gotta buy your points in April. You can't buy them in September and October, like Montana and Wyoming and all these different things. And so every state, there's places like there's places in New Mexico where you can draw an elk tag with 35 % odds, right? Because there's no point system in New Mexico. And so that's like one every three years. There's also places in New Mexico where it's gonna take you 300 years on average to draw the tag as a non-resident. So how does...

How does zero outfit or fees kind of balance that and like what the customer is really looking for? Because some people are like, hey, don't call me unless it's, I draw 400 inch potential tag. Other people are like, I just want to go out coming. And so it would be different for everyone. And so do they have any input or just how does that work?

Dan Adler (48:22.178)

Yeah, it's a great question. So we're very purposeful and very targeting in the areas we hunt. So if you can picture like a pot of soup, like you have to have ingredients in a pot of soup. So in zero outfit or fees, there's the three main ingredients, and then there's like the six or seven other ingredients. So the things you have to know about zero outfit or fees is those first three main ingredients are critically important. They have to be a diamond level experience, which means the best trophy genetics possible. second ingredient is closest to the rut as possible, where possible.

Brian Krebs (48:27.767)

Okay.

Dan Adler (48:51.086)

And the third one is with the best rods. best trophy genetics, closest to the rut where possible, with the best rods. So for it to be a diamond experience, for example, I will never sign my autograph on a hunt for elk that's less than 300 to 350 type hunt. And if you kill the new top 10 in the world, like we've done in the last two years, we now have a top 10 non-typical 458 and change, and a top 10 at all time in the world, typical 440 and change.

Brian Krebs (49:07.543)

Mm-hmm.

Dan Adler (49:17.166)

None of those guys paid a diamond in trophy fees. None of our 383, 90 bulls this year, they pay a diamond trophy fees, but for it to be a diamond level experience, it has to be a unit. I said, best trophy jacks possible closest to the rod is possible at the best draw. So I'm going to those. those units are going to change it a little bit from year to year. And then the smaller ingredients, just to kind of look deeper behind the curtain of Oz is the smaller ingredients are tag increases and decreases from game and fish from year to year. That changes what we do.

Brian Krebs (49:28.183)

Okay.

Dan Adler (49:45.006)

Did my team kill all of our shooter bucks or bulls or Rams off the mountain? Because if we killed all the ones on our hit list, are the up and coming ones going to be shooters next year or not for two years? Because if it's two years, we're not going back there next year. Do we have a wolf problem, a coyote problem or grizzly bear problem in that unit that we didn't have before? Do we have disease that wasn't there before? Was there a burn that's been detrimental to the unit? Is there a drought that's detrimental? So those are the smaller ingredients. So every year, my team and I at the end of the season, we review all five states.

And we go through those states and go, okay, as these hunting regulations come out, that's the final piece. these regs come out, we've already got the rest of the soup. Did they increase tags or decrease tags? If they decrease tags, we might still be interested except not as many clients will draw. If they increase tags, we've got a little bit better draws, but will that be a detriment to the hunt? So those are like the 10 ingredients, but the main three will always be best trophy genetics, closest to rut where possible with the best draws possible. So it's not the same every year.

And that's one of the reasons why our clients love that we do it all for them. So when a client does their onboarding with me. the other restriction we talked about is like some guys will straight up tell you, Hey, I can't do any of the sheep hunts unless they're more, need, if I'm doing a desert bighorn sheep, it's gotta be a more moderate one. Or you'll get the opposite. We're like, Hey, I only want to do the more physical demanding. I definitely want to be doing the Rocky mountain goat apps. Other guys are like, no, I want the easier whitetail hunts, the easier mule deer hunts.

Brian Krebs (50:48.629)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Krebs (51:04.343)

Mmm.

Dan Adler (51:11.95)

geographically, topographically, I need the easier, less physical stuff. I need to sit a water hole. So when we do an onboarding client gets a lot of, give us a lot of feedback, but ultimately like this is my reputation too. So if I'm going to take you on a hunt, it's gotta be great trophy quality. It's gotta be closest to the rest possible, but our motto is hunt more and spend less. So if I want you to hunt more and spend less, the greatest thing for our business is for clients to draw and 54 clients drawing this year, which was our best year is magnificent because

I can tell everybody until I'm blue in the face about how great zero outfitter feed is, but those 54 clients, like the guy that got the mountain goat hunt his first year, he'd been a member for six months and I wrote an almost $17,000 check for him. Right? We had a guy this year who drew desert bighorn sheep and his son drew elk in the same year. Calvin out of California has drawn four hunts in five years with us. And even if you only drew one hunt with us in 10 years, you save thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. And that's not even counting the discount programs through vendors.

other hunting and fishing discounts. If you're as your outfit or fees member, for example, you get discounts on our mountain lion hunts that are over the counter, black bear hunts, archery mule deer hunts, turkey hunts. So there's so many benefits that come with the program that we've really tried to make it a no brainer for everybody. But at the end of the day, if all it did for you is get you one hunt in 10 years, you still save so much money. But the goal is to get you three or four hunts in that time. And so those odds shake out.

Brian Krebs (52:09.398)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (52:38.146)

for somebody that's taking full advantage of the program, which is to put in for 37 hunts. But if somebody's only putting in for elk, for example, well, that's Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada. That's five states. That's five out of 37 apps. If they're putting in for only elk and mule deer, well, they have 10 apps. But here's kind of a cool little bonus. When you joins your outfit or fees, your membership price is grandfathered, but your draws go up exponentially over time.

Brian Krebs (52:42.998)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (53:03.832)

So even though your membership price can never go up, your draw, it's go up exponentially over time. So you've got this inflation protected price with increasing draws over time. And the more hunts you put in for the more free hunts you're going to get. had an I, a guy draw the non-resident Ibex hunt. First time we ever put them in. had a guy draw the Wyoming hunt right outside for bison right outside the park. Only five tags. He drew a first year in the program. So to be very clear, this is a tactical purposeful shotgun approach.

Because the more hunts we put you in for, the more points we can build for you, the more you're going to draw. So it's, so it's, you're definitely incentivized to apply for the most hunts you'd be willing to go on if they were free. Some hunts wouldn't trap. clients wouldn't travel say to Arizona for a free Turkey hunt, but they didn't think about antelope before, but if it was free, they'd absolutely go. So the more, the way to win the game is to take advantage of the benefits, whether it's the travel benefit, the hunting discounts on their over the counter and landowner stuff or our equipment. You know, if you're buying a rifle, you're buying a scope, you're buying.

Brian Krebs (53:59.467)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (53:59.95)

optics, like that's $500 to $1,000 off, your membership just paid for itself right now. So really you just got to plug in, take advantage, listen to our, you know, read our newsletters we send our clients, listen to when we do the Zoom live town hall meetings, tune in or watch it on recording. But if you plug in, you'll make money on this membership.

Brian Krebs (54:18.581)

Yeah, and so I assume just like something that we definitely want to touch on. So 37 apps. ZOF isn't going to pay for the app fees, right? Because you would go bankrupt.

Dan Adler (54:31.106)

Yeah, clients pay for their own state licenses, their app fees, their tags. And of course the state licenses and tags are the same way they went DIY or not, right? You got to have those. And then any tips you leave for your guide or cook. So you're going to always have your app fees. You're going to always have your license fees. So the idea behind your outfit or fee. I'll give you an example. Some clients will tell me, Hey, before I met you, I only applied for it. I'll just make up a couple of states, Arizona and Utah.

Brian Krebs (54:44.853)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (54:59.713)

Right.

Dan Adler (55:00.334)

And I like, well, why? And I said, because even though I'd want to hunt those other states, I was going to hire a guide when I drew them, but that was going to be eight, 10, $12,000. Now that I don't have to pay for the guide, I can afford to have $125 Utah hunting license, an $89 New Mexico license, $155 Nevada license, because when I draw that big piece is going to be paid for. yeah, clients still have to pay the license tags, app fees, guide tips, cook tips.

Brian Krebs (55:16.278)

Right.

Dan Adler (55:27.896)

But the thing to remember again is that's total leverage because when we do your onboarding call, we learn about you and what you want. We update that every year and then we do all those draws for you. The five states where you have the free hunts and then just as additional customer service, concierge service, will apply you in those other 45 states too for hunts that you want totally free. clients love not having to ever think about a draw deadline.

Brian Krebs (55:51.637)

Yeah, I agree. I mean, that's one of the biggest reasons why we do the GoHunt bonus series is to give people like a 10 day, a seven day heads up of like, hey, you know, we just did Idaho's, right? Idaho just did their, they call it over the counter, but it's not, it's a lottery. They just did their lottery sale, their tag sale. I think it was the 10th of December, 15th of December. I should know all these dates. There's so many of them.

Dan Adler (56:14.072)

And they sold out the fastest they've ever sold out.

Brian Krebs (56:17.141)

Yeah. Did they crash? I don't, I didn't apply, but usually every year that the website crashes.

Dan Adler (56:21.634)

I didn't hear about any crashes this year, but it was the fastest they sold out. I did hear that.

Brian Krebs (56:25.015)

Yeah, it's and so we do all these bonus episodes to keep people aware. The points one is crazy. Colorado burns a lot of people because they're like, I'm not going to apply for tag. I just want to buy a point. I'll do that later in the year. Well, you can't. You have to do it in your app. And then Wyoming and Montana. I mean, they really don't do anyone a service making the deadline in the middle of the hunting season when like I've almost I've had to buy my.

Wyoming points before multiple times in the truck on the way back from a hunt being like, my gosh, it's the day that last day I forgot. Right. So yeah, you get more time to buy them, but the deadline is right when you're going to be the absolute busiest. It's like make that deadline like July when no one's doing anything but staring at the calendar at work. So I just wanted people to know, like if you do all five states, all 37 apps, you're going to spend probably you probably know this by heart, but it's going to be what, 1500 bucks?

Dan Adler (57:09.283)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (57:19.726)

Yeah, that's a great number. 15 to 1800 bucks. And remember your membership is fixed. And if you're applying for all 37 hunts, and you just went on the website and you added up the value of what those hunts would cost if you drew any single one of them or all of them, you know, you're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars in hunts you're applying for. And if you draw one, if you draw one, if you draw two the same year, it doesn't matter. We'll honor all of them. And I'll probably just throw this out there too, for the benefit of your audience. You know, people talk about

Brian Krebs (57:22.465)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (57:35.979)

Yeah, if you drew them for sure, you're saving money. Yeah.

Dan Adler (57:47.822)

Hey, I can't go hunting this year. So, you you guys at zero fair fees just put me in for bonus points. No problem. But what people don't understand, and I do a seminar out this threat, a lot of the national hunting conventions is bonus points are great. If you literally couldn't go on the hunt, come hell or high water. But what people don't understand is because these tags are random, especially the once in a lifetime, some of the states for sheep, mountain goat, bison. I think those are the big ones.

Brian Krebs (58:12.715)

Yeah. Utah's a good example of that. You might as well apply. Yeah.

Dan Adler (58:17.198)

You've got to apply. You're like, well, I couldn't go if I got drawn. I'm like, let me tell you what, I've never had a client who found out he drew a desert bighorn sheep with six months notice who thought he wouldn't be able to go when he found out he drew this tag. Couldn't go like I've had clients say they quit their job first. Right? So that's a big thing for a lot of listeners to understand. Yeah. If you're, if you

Brian Krebs (58:32.575)

Yeah, there's a couple of them. like, it's a seven day season and my wife is expecting triplets the day the hunt starts. It's like, yeah, you probably aren't going on that hunt. Yeah. Right.

Dan Adler (58:42.894)

probably not going on that. Short of that, right? These once in a lifetime, don't put in for points because you've got just a good chance to draw them with zero points is 30 points and in some sense of the randomness of the draw. You mentioned Colorado and that's a really important thing. I love hunting Colorado. I had a business in hunting in Colorado for a lot of years. So a lot of clients ask me, know, with being a fan of Colorado, we did several episodes of our TV show over the years. Why aren't we in Colorado anymore? Please.

Brian Krebs (58:53.676)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (59:08.161)

Can I guess? Because in Colorado, it's a pure preference point system, which means you know if they're gonna draw or not. And to get the diamond level units that you fit your criteria, you're talking like Northwest Corner and a couple handful of others, and you're like, you're not gonna draw for 25 years.

Dan Adler (59:25.998)

You're very, close. So in order for this program to have integrity, we have to be applying you for a hunt that you at least have a chance to draw. And to your point, because Colorado is a preference point state, not a bonus point state, I can't look in the eye and say there's still a chance. Because Colorado has already told me there's not, unless you have 20 whatever points. So all the hunts we're putting you in for, whether it's a once in a lifetime hunt or not, any hunt I put you in for to have integrity has to have random non-resident tags.

Brian Krebs (59:27.979)

Okay.

Brian Krebs (59:34.07)

Right.

Brian Krebs (59:44.15)

Right.

Dan Adler (59:52.588)

So as much as I like hunting Colorado, it will never be part of the zero outfitter fees model because it would break the integrity of zero outfitter fees. Cause I couldn't tell you, got a chance of drawing every other hunt. These other five states you do.

Brian Krebs (59:52.822)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:00:01.333)

Yeah, you'd have to, you'd have to add it as like a value added freebie in a way, if that makes sense. Like we'll put you in for points and we'll let you know when you're drawing. And maybe like if you've, for members that have been with ZOF for five or more years, when you finally hit your Colorado tag, you know, we'll work something out on like, because we love you and cause you're part of the program. And that's an addition to what we like, we base the value on it based on these five States. This is just a bonus.

Dan Adler (01:00:09.72)

Sure. Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:00:31.019)

I do that a lot when I market the podcast. like, I'd market everything based on the listens that the podcast gets, because that's the value I can show on paper. Our social media is growing. It's growing exponential, but it's not where I can put a number on and say, this is the value you're going to see. So I do that for free on the side because it's just a value add. I can't justify the spend yet. And so that's, you know what I mean? Like I get that like Colorado is a, it's a wonderful state for people that are like,

Because you know exactly if you're going to draw or not. Very close. mean, if you bake in like a little bit of a margin, like half of a point bracket, in margin, you're pretty guaranteed to know if you're going to draw or not. Right? Yeah, you can plan for it. Which is like, for my wife, she's a pediatric pharmacist. She works at a hospital, and her hospital's unionized. So she has to bid her vacation like six to 12 months ahead of time.

Dan Adler (01:01:11.534)

We've got a plan for it. What we do with our... Go ahead.

Brian Krebs (01:01:28.683)

They have like a rolling six month block. So she just did her vacation bidding for like May to May through October, I think. And then she has to bid like in six months from November to whatever. And so for her, like she would probably lose her job if she just took off for a hunt. She didn't know she was going on and didn't get the vacation from. I don't know how it works because she's unionized, but like she can't just pick vacation. Me on the other hand, I could tell my boss tomorrow like, I'm going on vacation. I drew a tag. I'm to be back in 10 days.

Like my job is like, here's how what we're going to handle the things that work, you know, very flexible. so for those, like for those situations, like we're, we're talking about it. We're doing a mule deer hunt in Colorado this year, because she wants to go on a mule deer hunt. And I'm saying like, it's either going to be this week or this week and we can draw either one. So whichever week has the better odds of you actually getting that week off. Cause she's low on the totem pole. It goes by seniority. There's like three rounds. It is literally like a Western draw application for getting her week. And so I'm like,

pick either one of these weeks, but do not pick the week in the middle because you know the way Colorado works, like then we can't do anything. And so that's really tricky. And so that's one of the things Colorado is nice for because you know exactly where you're going to be. Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:02:38.702)

Gives you a little predictability. It does. It can give you a little predictability when you're in that half point window. And that's what we love about it. When, when zero off therapies expands into other Western States, like it's on the horizon, maybe in Washington, Oregon, the toque management, sheep hunt, Alaska, Idaho, and then maybe some of the Midwest last Eastern elk States, they all have random tags. So that will always be the theme in common for the integrity of the program. So always have random non-resident tags and will always stay that way. What we'll do.

Brian Krebs (01:03:00.321)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:03:06.392)

for another level of membership that's not been rolled out yet is in addition to all the free hunts in all these states is we'll have within our own, a drawing within Zero Outfitter Fees clients only of some of my friends and clients who are in the business that have landowner and over the counter tags. So we'll have a monthly or quarterly giveaway for a hunt. could be a black bear hunt in Alaska one month, an orc hunt in New Mexico the next month, a stag hunt in Argentina the next month, a gator hunt the next month in Florida.

Brian Krebs (01:03:22.967)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:03:33.74)

So there'll be a drawing within the drawing, everything we'll do to keep momentum and to keep it, know, squared away and the knives of integrity will always be a random component. And that's the goal, more, spend less.

Brian Krebs (01:03:43.415)

Yeah. Yeah. So 37 applications a year. If someone was to say, I'm all in, I'm doing them all. I want the best odds, right? They're going to spend 15 to 1800 bucks in, in tag or application fees. Cause a lot of states, have to buy your hunting license and then you have to put in for the, you know, there's, sometimes you get it back. Sometimes you don't. You also have to be prepared to write a bigger check for holding your tag fee. He's a lot of states.

the you hold your tag fee like New Mexico, you send them 1250 bucks, they hold on to it. And if you draw, they keep it if you don't try to get it back. Wyoming is I don't know who announced got that idea approved from the public, but they you basically finance the Wyoming game and fish for half a year. And then they'll let you know if you get your money for Elkin. Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:04:28.206)

Yeah, Wyoming elk you pay for in January and you don't get the results till May. Every other species they do in Wyoming, you apply in May, get your money back in June, but they hold your elk money for five months. So you're out about 7, 1200 bucks out of pocket. Like you said, they're keeping, they're not giving you any of that interest back on the backend. I've seen a lot, you know, when I was a young buck coming up in this industry, a lot of the States were not what they are today, which we call pay to play.

Brian Krebs (01:04:34.54)

You're okay.

Brian Krebs (01:04:42.187)

Six months.

Dan Adler (01:04:56.654)

In the old days, you could apply for a hunt. If you didn't get drawn, you got your money back for the hunting license. Now all Western States are requiring the state hunting license except Wyoming, because they don't really have what you or I would consider a hunting license unless you draw. So all these states now require the state hunting license. so people are like, well, is that good? Has that been good or bad? I think it's been, it's obviously been great for the state's revenues, individual state's revenues, but it's kind of filtered out the...

Brian Krebs (01:04:56.684)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:05:10.432)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:05:24.022)

I'm going to say, not to be derogatory, but the casual hunter. And it's kind of allowed the more serious dedicated hunter to have a little bit higher draw odds by forcing them to put that fee upfront. It does. It does. And so I think as an outfitter, there may be that may carry over into a little bit more motivated client who intends to be successful as opposed to, I dry draw, if I don't get all my money back. Now, you know, Hey, I'm investing 160 bucks in Arizona. No matter what I'm investing a hundred.

Brian Krebs (01:05:32.917)

Yeah, it filters out window shoppers. Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:05:43.318)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:05:52.718)

25 bucks in Utah no matter what, 80 bucks in New Mexico no matter what. And I guess maybe as a conservationist, a guy that's donated a lot to these organizations, it is how we fund what they do. I mean, they don't get tax dollars, right? They have to get their, by law, they have to get their money from sales of tags and licenses. hopefully they're doing, we just have to trust that these state game agencies are doing the right thing with the money. We've seen countless evidence of where they have and on occasion, unfortunately, some where they haven't hit the mark.

Brian Krebs (01:06:21.399)

Yeah, yeah, no, it's definitely so 37. So you're gonna end in the zero outfitter fee membership. You could be let's just call it 2500 bucks for easy mass, you're going to spend $208 and 33 cents a month. If that's that that could be your budget for for Western hunting applications, tags, and outfitting fees is $208 and 33 cents a month would be the number. Now, if you draw you got a little bit of travel.

Sure, suck it up. know, start a sinking fund, put 1500 bucks in it for hunting, travel and expenses. You know, it's the same as taxidermy, right? Like you went on a hunt, you shot a giant bull, now you have a $1500 taxidermy bill. It's like, well, plan for that ahead of time. Like plan on shooting a big bull, save up $1500 a month, put it in a taxidermy fund, leave it there until you use it. When you use it, slowly refill it. You got a 12 months to refill it. You know what I mean? So you got this monthly budget.

You're doing that whatever, $200 something a month. 37 tags, 37 applications, like some of them are gonna be higher odds, some of them are gonna be lower odds, like Rocky Mountain Goats is gonna be, or Rocky Mountain, yeah, Goats are gonna be like what? 3 eighths of a percent?

Dan Adler (01:07:35.79)

they can be anywhere from three, three eights of all the way up to four or 5 % depending on the year, depending on tag increases or decreases. But I call that part of the once in a lifetime. So I just call it low. Like it's, this is a low draw, it's hunt. but it's free when you get drawn, you don't have to pay the big chunk of it. And by, like you said, with the 37, I've got such a bit, a bit, better chance, but yeah, your once in a lifetime are your worst rods yet. I don't see the same amount of clients draw sheep and go tags as I do elk and deer.

but we always draw some and it seems like always some of these guys are the first year in the program. So it's just that shotgun approach. But yes, you're 100 % right. You're gonna have that annual budget for those, for that pay to play.

Brian Krebs (01:08:09.451)

Yeah.

What's

What's the cumulative, like I would expect someone that's doing 37 apps, their cumulative draw odds are gonna be, my guess is between 50 and 100 % of drawing A tag. Is that accurate?

Dan Adler (01:08:28.718)

I wouldn't say if you're doing 37, I still wouldn't say it's 100 % within a year. What our statisticians.

Brian Krebs (01:08:34.408)

No, not 100%. I'm saying like it's maybe less than 100, but more than 50. My gut tells me it would have landed about 65 to 75 % chance of drawing a single tag in any, in your first year or kind of any given year. Cause once it goes up, you draw, then you go back down cause of your point. You know what I mean? Like you're going to float somewhere. And I don't know if, mean, you hopefully you're not floating above a hundred percent for too long, which means to me, like you've built up a ton of points and you're not drawing like

Dan Adler (01:08:52.514)

Yeah. Right.

Brian Krebs (01:09:02.721)

You know what mean? Like I'd want you to draw those tags and then you're going to come back down. What for you? Like how, what's that percentage? I mean, you could probably kind of gut check it. For example, we have a hundred people in the program and 75 people drew tags last year. Well, okay. 75 % chance of drawing a tag any given year.

Dan Adler (01:09:18.402)

Yeah. Well, we have found your first year in the program is it's not 50%, but our statisticians did over a 10 year period. Guys that did 20 or above could draw as many as three to four, sometimes five tags just on average. But remember that means some people will draw more. Some people will draw less. Yep. And there is a mathematical possibility, albeit low, there is a mathematical possibility. Somebody can go five years in the program and not draw. There's a mathematical possibility. Somebody five years in the program could draw every year.

Brian Krebs (01:09:33.771)

Yeah, and some people draw less. And that's the program.

Brian Krebs (01:09:48.321)

Well, there's.

Dan Adler (01:09:48.322)

So because we're only targeting the random tags, you're just putting it out there. And as you indicated, with the points, your odds go up significantly over time. And kind of the cool thing you mentioned, I was just talking about it earlier today, like speaking about elk again, we call it the ladder effect. A client taught me this theory. So picture a step ladder. And let's say you're in the program for three years and on the third year you draw an elk tag in Arizona, but you did not draw an elk tag anywhere else. So like you said, your points for Arizona for that.

elk would now go down two rungs, but your other states are still three or four points. So you're that much closer to another free elk in another state. All the meanwhile, your Arizona points are catching back up. And then ultimately, you don't need points for any of these hunts. They just put your name in the hat more. So you've got this great thing going on where the membership price is grandfathered, the membership price is inflation protected, but your draw is going up exponentially every year. We know the best thing for our program is for more people to draw.

Brian Krebs (01:10:22.869)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:10:36.204)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:10:40.342)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:10:44.91)

So we're constantly trying to get more people in the woods. 54 people this year in the woods on a free hunt. Like that's probably never been done in the history of mankind. Like the joke is other outfitters hate me. They don't, we're all friends, but like my hunts are free. So we go to Dallas Safari Club in two weeks. There's gonna be 500 outfitters there. There's gonna be one that's giving away free elk hunts, one that's giving away free mule deer hunts, one that's giving away free sheep hunts, all the way down the line. But you have to be a member. And so we have to bring value.

Brian Krebs (01:11:09.335)

Yeah. Well, you could do the math pretty quick. Yeah, you could do the math pretty quick. a 10 year period, you're going to spend, I would say not quite $25,000 because the application fees are always going to go up. Points are going to go up. Hunting licenses are going to go up. But let's just call it, you know, let's remove inflation for both sides of it. You're going to $25,000 in the course of 10 years. But if you're drawing like 50 %

on average, of course, that 10 year, like it might start at 40 and you might get up to 60, 70, 80 % by the end of your 10 years. Cause like what you said, you're building points in all these other States, right? Well, okay. So that's five hunts, right? You can, you know, better than anyone pick five random hunts, one from each species. It's going to be a lot more than $25,000.

Dan Adler (01:11:51.502)

And if you look at like if look at a $12,000 elk hunt today in 2024, what's that same elk hunt going to be in 10 years?

Brian Krebs (01:11:55.319)

Yeah, it's going to be 20, 25 probably. mean, we've seen it. look back, sheep hunts used to be 30 grand. Now they're 60, 70 grand.

Dan Adler (01:12:05.292)

Yeah, my elk hunts used to be $1,750. So it should be, if somebody takes full advantage of their membership, even without drawing, if they take advantage of the perks, the membership should be free. If they don't, and they're only here for the free hunts, and they draw only one tag in a tenure period, they're in the good. If they draw two to three or four like the program's designed, they're going to be even better. If they got six or seven, my gosh, right? Now they're like getting paid to hunt.

Brian Krebs (01:12:29.087)

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, it's a wonderful program for someone that doesn't enjoy applications, application strategies, point strategies. You know, we talk about a lot on the podcast, and I'm a very big advocate of people like learning this and getting into it, but like short, mid and long term point strategies, I have, I think I have 108 points across the West right now. And I have, I have states that are short term states, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado,

These are short term states, Colorado is changing now, obviously with the new changes in their over the counter programs. Those are short term states. When I get four points in Wyoming, I'm burning them on the general elk tag. That's one of our best units for elk hunting archery is a general Wyoming area. Montana, same thing. know, there really isn't maybe the breaks, but Montana splits it so you can kind of go short term while you build your bonus points long term.

Arizona, I've called Arizona as a midterm state. Like if I get five to 10 points, I'm burning them. I'm not going 25 points in Arizona. I think Arizona's got some wonderful opportunities like a late season rifle. Yeah, I might shoot a busted up 350 inch bowl, but it's still a cool bowl. Utah, that's a long term state, right? Like, you know, it could also be a very short term state if you do over the counter spike or over the counter bowl only, you know, so I come and it's like,

But I enjoy it and people can tell I enjoy it. They hear the energy and all the things I know. Right. If you like, dude, I don't want to do that. Like I have a busy job. I have a good job. Like, yeah, I could spend 20 hours a year on that. But if I spent 20 more hours a year, cold calling clients, I'm to make another 50 grand or whatever it is. Like, I don't want to spend my time on that. I just want to let me I want someone to call me and be like, congrats, buddy. You just drew, you know, whatever. Gila Mountain, Voltaic. It's like, awesome. When do I come?

Dan Adler (01:14:08.579)

Sure.

Brian Krebs (01:14:19.891)

And you're like, well, we got your pencil in for September 13th through the 20th. I'll be there. You know what mean? That would be a, that's the, this is the program for you. Like someone else is going to do all the management. Someone else is going to take care of all the paperwork. Someone else is going to make sure. think primarily you don't make a mistake, right? You can't ensure success, but you can prevent mistakes, prevent missed applications, prevent messing up an application. And you spent your 21.

points in Colorado on unit 15 and everyone's like, where is unit 15? I've never even heard of it. And you're like, I messed up. I meant unit one. Yeah, great program.

Dan Adler (01:15:00.59)

Well, then you get the emotional rush and the emotional leverage of like, okay, I've got 105 points, like you said, and the day you joins your outfit or fees and you're like, not only do I have 105 points, I've got 61 guys on just under 32 million acres actively in the field scouting for my hunt. Like for 208 cents, whatever your math was, you've hired me and 61 other people full time on the mountain. know, we've got that sort of big horn sheep hunters out right now. We've got mountain lion hunters out right now.

Brian Krebs (01:15:17.537)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:15:29.006)

We've got elk and orc hunters out right now. We're literally scouting for your hunt the moment you join the club.

Brian Krebs (01:15:31.222)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:15:34.807)

Yeah, it's a great program. It definitely is. It's very interesting to see how it all plays out. you know, like people would say like that, it's too good to be true. And then you work through the math and it's like, well, it's not, you know, there are no guarantees. Like you're not going to be able to game the system because we, know, someone could be like, well, I'm just going to get the 35 % New Mexico tag and go three times or four times in 10 years. It's like, well, that doesn't work because that doesn't fit the units that would have a diamond level experience. Right. And so there's

You know what mean? Like there's not like a way that you can gain the system, but you're also not getting, you know, backwards or negative or underwater on your program. Like it's a crazy system to be, to design. I'm really interested in how the person that typically does DIY is going to approach it. And obviously a lot of them are doing it because you've got a ton of clients. Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:16:25.112)

That's been our number one source of clients is guys that are like, hey, I did the math. I've been a DIY guy, but it wasn't because I didn't want a guide. It was because I didn't think I could afford one. they do their homework on our reputation. They watch our TV show. They look at our reviews. They look at our social media. The guys, have a full time social media guy that all he does is that in Diamond Outfitters television. He's constantly loading live what our clients are doing now. Clients want to be part of that experience.

Brian Krebs (01:16:34.604)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:16:54.424)

that it's only about money in the absence of value. So because we continue every year to pour more value and more value and more value into our club, the club keeps growing. I did a interview once where they were talking about continuity programs and memberships. Netflix, right? One of the largest subscription services memberships in the world considers 37 % renewal rate year after year to be amazing.

Brian Krebs (01:17:02.561)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:17:17.388)

You talk to the presidents of the greatest gyms in the United States, 26 % renewal rate year after year is amazing for their business. We have almost 99 % renewal rate. And they laugh at me when I tell them that because it's not possible in a membership industry. I say, well, this is a hunting club. We provide value every year. We add more value. We figure out more ways to add value. And it's only about money in the absence of value. So we continue to bring in guys who

Brian Krebs (01:17:28.374)

Wow.

Brian Krebs (01:17:39.051)

Mm-hmm.

Dan Adler (01:17:45.782)

our very experienced guys, do it yourself guys. Nobody leaves. We continue to bring a value. And at the end of the day, man, do we just have fun. Like we take our hunting seriously, but we don't take ourselves so seriously. So hunt more, spend less, just have the most fun. Like let's celebrate freedom. Let's celebrate this is the greatest, freest country in the world. Let's go out and get in those pine trees. Let's go hear some elk bugle. Let's get down to the oak scrub brush and see some giant coos deer. The rut's just starting like, Hey, let's just go out there and have fun. Brian, at the end of the day, I probably just don't know what I want to do when I grow up.

Brian Krebs (01:18:06.433)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:18:15.362)

So I'm doing the same things now I did when I was a kid, play with guns, play with trucks, know, go see elk and animals, know, right?

Brian Krebs (01:18:15.659)

Hahaha

Brian Krebs (01:18:21.335)

Yeah, no, it's awesome. It's really cool. Are you guys hunting a mix of private and public land? What does that look like for you? Because I know it's challenge. mean, like, sometimes the good elk are on public, sometimes they're on private. And you both have their challenges. Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:18:30.029)

Yeah.

No, we do. hunt both extensively. Yeah, part of our 32, 33 million acres is a beautiful combination of private and public land. And that includes not just our draw hunts, but our landowner and over the counter hunts as well. So in certain areas, in certain states, I like to tell clients, because that's a big question I get is are you guys more public land or more private land? And because of our size and our great relationship with landowners, I have a wonderful answer. I love the question. It's not hunting the land, I'm hunting the bull. I'm hunting the buck. I'm hunting the ram.

Brian Krebs (01:18:39.959)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:19:01.198)

So if that particular target bull I've been watching for you is on public, well, our tag allows us to hunt on public. If today that animal is on private and I've got rent permission on that private, and most likely I already do before you got there and it's included in your zero off fitter fees membership price, I'm hunting private. I'm hunting the animal more than I am the land. So yes, we do a combination of both. Now there's exceptions. My Sonora stuff is 100 % landowner. Like everything we do in Mexico is 100 % landowner.

Brian Krebs (01:19:25.174)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:19:28.44)

Kansas, which isn't part zero offender fees, but part of diamond offenders, that's all private. So there's some exceptions, but yeah, overall 32, 33 million unfenced free range acres is a combination of public and private. And what's cool is, yeah, one of the nice things too is, you you've hunted Colorado a lot, I've hunted Colorado a lot. One of the nice things about these draw areas for the most part is they're not gonna see a orange vest and an orange hat on every hill. That's the upside to some of these draws is you're...

Brian Krebs (01:19:39.797)

Yeah, some states you have to.

Dan Adler (01:19:56.844)

your crowding issues aren't as bad. And if you're a hunter that can get even, geez, a mile, mile and a half away from the truck, you're gonna see more elk or deer or whatever hunting than people in most circumstances. So I guess that's another reason why we don't have a big focus on Colorado. We can get you away from the people and we can have public or private land depending on the critter.

Brian Krebs (01:20:17.183)

Yeah, yeah, it's really exciting stuff, man. It's it's crazy to talk to someone that's doing it. I mean, the entrepreneur side of me is just like the scale of what you've got going on is large. mean, you've obviously scaled up a bunch of times. I wonder, like, what's it look like now? Is it when you continue to scale and maybe like add more states or add ZOF? it like does it still feel the same as when you're like, I think I'm going to

quit the military and become a guide and you're like, have no idea if this is going to work or not, but it's like the only egg in the basket, right? I've got one egg. I've got one basket. Now you had ZOF or you add new States. You're like, I forgot like 37 eggs in my basket. I'm just adding one more. Do you still feel like that same way at, you know, the next next step or is it just like another day in the office? You know, we've done this 20 times before.

Dan Adler (01:20:52.163)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:21:07.022)

You know, it's a beautiful question. I've never been asked that question, but it's a beautiful question for two reasons. It takes me back in time for one, but two is, you know, we have a lot of clients and they're the ones that are encouraging us to do more States. They're like, dude, I will pay X just get the talk management sheep hunt in there. I will pay X just get the, you know, the Montana sheep hunt to get, I get the Idaho elk is a big one. We're like constantly like, we want Idaho elk. We don't care what we pay. love you.

Brian Krebs (01:21:26.72)

Mm.

Dan Adler (01:21:34.702)

And the thing I equate that to, and I'm not even trying to be funny, like that's how the blessing of the clients have been. The way I equate it to is when we started this business, I can remember like Las Vegas and Salt Lake City trade shows for hunting shows. I would go there everywhere I went. I was right out of the air force. It was like diamond who diamond, what, who are you guys? What do you do? Never heard of you. Right. And then, you know, I can't take much credit for this. My team, my wife, the TV show, great clients, literally thousands of great clients, 1800 five-star reviews over the years.

out there just telling people about us. So now this is the coolest part. Like if you were to be with me for Dallas Fire Club in a couple of weeks or SCI in Nashville or while cheap and Reno, like the joke is like our past clients just show up with new clients with their credit card in hand. And the joke we all say, my clients even say it is here's my buddy Billy take his money. And we joke about it, but it's been a great blessing in my life to watch in 19 years. And for now, my year old son to get to see like diamond who diamond what 19 years ago.

Brian Krebs (01:22:09.92)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Krebs (01:22:17.217)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:22:33.742)

15 years ago, think maybe then at the peak of the TV show, like a line to meet us, pictures, autographs, all that fun stuff, blew my mind, like who would care about doing that stuff with me? And now 19 years in the business, all these speaking engagements, you know, I just got asked to be the speaker at SCI in Nashville's Veterans Breakfast, for example, like what a greater honor in my life could I ask for than to do that? So now it's literally people just coming to the booth saying, how do I register for ZOF? Should I do it here at the booth? Should I do it online?

Brian Krebs (01:22:55.499)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:23:02.862)

Of course, everybody knows there's incentives to do it at the booth and different perks and drawings and stuff. So they're literally just there to show up. On occasion, I still get the Diamond Who, Diamond What, tell me about it. And I'm excited because I get really excited to meet new people that have never heard about us yet, because they don't know what we do and they're gonna go tell their friends. So it's a great question, never been asked it before. But from Diamond Who 19 years ago to the largest outfitting business on the continent, blows my mind. All the credit to my team, all the credit to my family, surround ourselves with great people.

Our guides are as good as gold. I'm very picky on who I, who we bring into the guide team. And that's been successful for us and probably subject for another podcast another day. But almost all my guides are active or retired military active, retired first responders, active or retired, even game, game and fish agents and rodeo cowboys. And then a few of them, that's all they've ever done has been a guide. So I've been very particular on who I hired to keep that high level of integrity. and to be in a position to do it year round is also one of God's great blessing. So.

Brian Krebs (01:23:36.599)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:23:55.148)

Yeah.

Dan Adler (01:23:59.786)

It's a beautiful industry, it's beautiful business, and we've been very blessed to be successful. And yeah, I look to these new states with excitement because I'm bringing you more value, right? So when you first met me, I was offering you five states. Now, three years later, I'm offering you eight. Three years later, after that, I'm offering you 12. And you can ascend through this membership to whatever level is comfortable for you. But as long as I continue to bring you value, you'll want to ascend the ladder with us.

Brian Krebs (01:24:23.477)

Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. I mean, one of the people that I know personally that I would say is probably the most badass hunting killer ever that I've met personally. I mean, this dude's got a sheep slam with his bow. He's got I saw two bulls at my taxidermist from him. One was a monster. I mean, look like the twin brother of the one behind you. I mean, this dude gets it done and he knows how to hunt and he always is going without fitters all the time. He's like

I have no, like I learned so much from these outfitters. Yeah, I could do the stuff on my own. Sometimes I can't like British Columbia. I can't do it without an outfitter and I want to get a sheep slam with a bow. so, I mean, he's done wonderful things. think that there's, mean, there's a little bit of a stigma among certain groups of like, you did that with an outfitter. all right. Well, cool. But you know, not DIY. And it's like, that's not.

It's not about that. It's about the experience. It's about getting out there, enjoying the time and, and I, outfitters, I do DIY, but man, I'll tell you what from by the, like the end of November, I'm like, man, it should be nice to like not have to work so hard. You know what I mean? Like it's not because I'm anti-outfitter. It's just, do love DIY, but there are things that I've thought about where it's like, it would be awesome to do a hunt like this. And I think an outfitter would be the best way to get that experience.

Like it's the experience, if you have the experience you're looking for, there's a lot of opportunities where going with a guide or an outfitter is going to get you that experience either faster at a higher level of quality, potentially cheaper. I mean, it's not cheaper to spend 30 years applying for sheep to hopefully draw. If you do the math, like you might as well just go on a sheep hunt today. If you can afford it. I mean, there's a lot of things where it is not cheaper to wait and draw it yourself. It's not cheaper to go to Colorado 10 times over the counter to shoot one bull.

Dan Adler (01:26:15.982)

That's what our clients have told us too. Like it's less expensive to go with us than to go DIY. And that's the beauty of it.

Brian Krebs (01:26:20.299)

Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. Well, I'm glad to have this time. Dan is awesome to meet you. Thanks for being here. Before we leave, give folks a chance where they can, where can they go check out both diamond outfitting? Where can they go learn more about ZOF? Follow along with the show, with your social media platforms, give folks the whole rundown.

Dan Adler (01:26:39.864)

Yep. So our website for Diamond Outfitters is diamondoutfitters.com. Nothing crazy there, just diamondoutfitters.com. Zero Outfitter Fees is zerooutfitterfees.com. And then on Instagram and Facebook, we're just, just go by Diamond Outfitters. It'll show up as diamondoutfitters.com. And then our TV show, Best of the West, those episodes are all on diamondoutfitters.com under the video link. So we try to make it pretty easy. If clients want to send us an email, info at diamondoutfitters.com.

then my office will put you on our mailing list. can get our monthly, actually now weekly newsletter and all my Zoom town halls I do try to do them once a month. Sometimes they're once a quarter, but I'll just kind of give you an update on Western big game hunts. You can watch them live. You can watch them on recording the next day, or you can ignore them altogether. But that's info at diamondoutfitters.com to be on the mailing list. And want to say thank you for you for spending some time with us today and nice to meet all your listeners and excited to have further conversations down the road.

Brian Krebs (01:27:36.683)

Yeah, well it's great to have you here Dan and thank you for listening folks.

Boom, just like that.

Dan Adler (01:27:44.044)

Just like that.

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