Archery Hunting Open Country Elk

Show Notes

On this episode of The Western Rookie Podcast, Brian talks with good friend Will Van Vleck about his latest elk hunt in the same unit Brian and Will met in!

Will is a Montana resident and die-hard bowhunter. Brian and Will met on the mountain in 2022 while Brian and his Brother were on an archery elk hunt. Will shares some of his hunting strategy – whether it’s solo hunting bulls with a bow or hunting in a group and tagging a mule deer in the black timber. Brian and Will also talk about gear and pack weight for day hunts vs non-resident week long trips.  

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Show Transcript

Welcome back to another Western Rookie Podcast episode. I'm your host, Brian Krebs, and today I have one of my buddies, new friend. Will Van Vleck. We met in Montana. We actually met on an elk hunt, which is crazy enough. But Will had some pretty exciting hunts this last fall. He used to live out west.

Now he's a traveling [00:01:00] man. But Will, how are you doing today? I'm

doing well. Thanks for having me on. And I do still live out west. Don't take that away from me yet. But but yes, just traveling this winter.

Yeah, you've just, You have a home base in Montana, but you've built a lifestyle and kind of a career path that allows you to really go wherever you want to go.

Yeah, exactly. And I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna, we're gonna talk about that a little bit more. I know this is not a business podcast, but to talk about the the ability to hunt during the week is a game changer for... Successful

elk hunts. Yeah, no kidding. So we met, for everyone that's listening, was actually a funny story.

So me and my brother did an elk hunt in Montana at the world's best unit, but we can't tell you which one it is. You have to find it on your own and where you were. It was, I remember it was hot, it was super hot and we weren't having a ton of success. And success hearing bugles. And so I ripped a bugle.

And we're going to head back another direction and we hear a bugle [00:02:00] behind us and we're like, oh crap There's a bull like 300 yards behind us. And so we're like, oh, how do you want to play? Every time you hear a bugle, you're always like, hey, how do you want to play it? You want to go up?

Do you want to go down? What should we do? We had maybe started talking for 10 seconds about how we're gonna play this bull and he bugles again at a hundred yards So in 10 seconds, he cut the distance, like 200 yards, and so we realized, Holy crap, he's running our way, and he's gonna be on top of us.

We need to bust up, because our thermals are bad. And so we both take off, we're running, and we both it was comical. We both instantly tripped through deadfall and fell. And we made it like 10 feet and the bowl was on top of us and it was an entire herd. And so we get not arrows knocked.

We're about ready. I had a red corn that if he would have taken five more steps, he would have cleared a tree and I could have had a 50 yard shot. But my brother had this monster bull and he's seen a lot of elk and he thinks it was a three 50 class bull. Who knows? 340 360 somewhere in that range.

But he was at about 80 yards cause he was the [00:03:00] last elk in the group. Sure enough, they cut our wind, they scat. And we're like, crap. And so we like just walk over and we're just sitting there just reflecting on what happened? Like we bugled a herd ran right to us. Sure enough, like five minutes later, Will comes walking over the ridge with, and I think you were just wearing your hat and your backpack and like obviously pants, but you're just walking around topless shirtless and we're like, Oh, hey, what's up?

He's Oh, you guys see that herd? I just jumped it looking for my elk. And and that was how we met. Yeah, no,

That's a, it's funny hearing it from that side again.

But yeah, that's exactly how it was. I think it was at my, I always give my brother crap that I bugled a herd right to him and he never sealed the deal because it was just like chance that I decided to bugle right when you jumped the herd and they were running our way already.

But we thought, hey, but it's a

good, it's a good flex. It's

a good flex for sure. From our point of view, before we knew you were involved, we're like, this herd just ran right towards us. What happened? Like that never, you never get [00:04:00] an entire herd to run 300 yards towards you off one bugle. And I don't think Corey Jacobson can even do that.

No, you're way

ahead of the game. I think it's okay to say you're better than Corey Jacobson. That's not a bad thing to

have. I did hear that he didn't win. I don't know if it was this last year or the year before he didn't win the national elk calling contest now to be fair I don't even know if he competed this year, but I assume he did.

I just know that somebody else won. That's

okay He had his eight years running or nine years running. Whatever. He's got he's gonna go down the hall of fame forever

He's alright. Yeah, I think I think he's like a second generation Hall of Famer because his dad Invented like the first reed call the first reed diaphragm elk call.

I did not know that I think if you watch the Sikka Linguist video, it goes into how Rocky Jacobson, Corey's dad originally heard elk would bugle off of a cow or a car horn down at like the interstate below or the highway below someone honked their horn, he [00:05:00] would every now and then see like a bull bugle in response and so he's like, how do I replicate that noise?

Cause it sounds like you can call them. And he went through all these revisions and finally made like a diaphragm call. And then apparently Will Primos got involved and they partnered or he bought it out or something. But. But yeah, like Rocky Jacobson was like one of the frontiersmen of calling elk, and that's how Rocky Mountain Elk Rocky Mountain Calls came to be.

Badass. I like that. Yeah, so Corey Jacobson you're definitely right. He's going down in the Hall of Fame for elk calling. 100%. Probably not going down in the Hall of Fame for rifle elk hunting. So everyone's got their strengths. Yeah, that's fair. But yeah, that's how we met. And then I think it was funny cause you were tracking a bowl and you had GoPro footage and you were trying to review the footage or see the footage and you're like, ah, my, my GoPros or like my GoPros dad.

And I'm like I have a charger. And so I pulled out my charging [00:06:00] port and I had no dude. You had a, you had

a whole battery. You had a

whole it started out with the, it started out with the charger and the battery, like I had the battery bank and the GoPro charger, like the little GoPro box. And so I gave that to you and you were trying to just do phantom power and power it up.

You're like, ah, this isn't working. I was like do you want a GoPro battery? I have a, one of those. And so I just pulled out a GoPro battery and gave it to you too. Because my plan was to use my GoPro filming, but on day one my, my like little bracket broke. And so I was like I'm not filming anymore.

I'm not going to mess around with this thing if I can't. Put it on my bow. And so I took the GoPro off, but I forgot I had the second battery in my pack all week.

Yeah. Fun. Extra weight to carry around. Hey, but I'm happy. I'm happy you had it. Yeah.

You got to see the shot. We got to see the shot.

I'm happy you had it too. It was cool to see what you were filming. But yeah, I do, I carry a lot of extra weight. I think this year is the best I've ever been on extra weight um, down in Southwest Colorado, but I typically carry a ton of extra weight. [00:07:00]

No, it's fair. And so funny just hearing you say the extra weight this year because this year for my hunts I would just carry a pack 16 ounces of water and the game bags and two knives.

And that was it. So my pack, I swear it was less than 10 pounds. Like I was so

lightweight this year. It's crazy how I think it's a local versus non local. noT even resident versus non resident, but like you live very close to the, like you drive from your house, you Elkhunt, and then you drive back to your house.

That's how close you live to the spot we met at, right? And like when we come out, we're coming out multiple states away and I feel like it's like a non resident or like a non local especially is like I got every I got to bring everything like emergency kit, shelter kit, rain gear, gaiters, warm puffy layers, game bags, knives, food.

Typically, I'm bringing three liters of water, like we just load up and now it's suddenly got like a [00:08:00] 35 pound bag.

No, and it's crazy and it's also I so I don't because that road up to our you know Secret spot is it's a long dirt road and it's shitty

and yeah, we can be honest about that It's probably the worst Western Road.

I've ever tried to travel It's not even like the road is that bad, but it's so damn long. Like it's a three hour road. It wouldn't be like you get off

the asphalt and you think, Oh, I'm getting into hunting zone and then it's two hours later, you're finally like starting to hike in the thing that I have learned over the years.

And it's, I don't go back to the house. Just.

Even if you're camping out of a truck or you're camping in a tent, you hunt so many days and then you're like 10, 11 days and you're like, you always start the season with all the extra stuff, all the extra crap and they're like, wait. I actually don't need this. Cause it's, I've been hunting 10 days and I haven't used it once.

I'm taking that out and taking that out and you just break down okay, I'm going to take the essentials, which is a little bit of water. Cause [00:09:00] humans can go days without water and I'll get thirsty. Yeah. But I'll drink when I get back, I don't need a lot of food. I'll eat a big meal when I get back and I'm going to bring my two knives and my game bags and my tag and that's it.

So it's like after hunting enough, you learn what the essentials are, like the true essentials. And then that's all you

take. Yeah, but it's probably different. So like me another update that I forgot to tell you, me and my wife just bought a 40 acre farmstead here in Minnesota. The listeners are probably sick of hearing me talk about it, but we got to give you the update.

And so we can walk. My wife shot our first deer at the farm, like literally in our backyard. We have a little, it was a horse pasture in our backyard, like in the back corner. And we planted a food plot into it. And so she shot the first year, I could have watched the entire thing from our master bedroom.

And then the second year she shot I don't know, five minute walk into the woods. So we can like, there's a room in our house. We can get ready. We can walk out and we can hunt. And so when I do that, I [00:10:00] just bring my bow and I like put a set of like lately I've been just, since it's like starting to get into the rut, I'll throw a set of rattling antlers like over my neck and I just go out and hunt.

If I'm hungry, maybe I throw an apple in my jacket versus if like you drove, if you drove to Minnesota for a whitetail hunt, you'd probably be like, okay, I need my call. I need my knives. I need, all these different things, because it's like not something it's like you do every day. And there I am just like, not even bringing a thing.

I just walk out and sit. And I think it's the same. It's just extreme in the reverse when I'm coming out to elk hunt,

right. It's also different. It's also different when you're coming out to Montana and you're on an Elkhorn and you're camping because there is more material that goes into it.

You're doing a longer trip. You're doing, you're up in the mountains more so that it makes sense. There's more prep, but I'm also a bad example because I'm such a, I'm such a minimalist. Like I'm on this trip for four months and I brought three pairs of pants and nine shirts and that's all I've got for the whole [00:11:00] trip.

And they're like, I'm going to be doing white tail hunting in Northwestern Pennsylvania after Thanksgiving for rifle season there. And I just brought my rifle and I've got some orange and I've got one camo outfit. And it's I'm just super goofy where I've taken, I've hunted enough with the bare essentials of Montana.

When I was packing for my, cause I'm going to hunt in Texas too. This year, I was just like, fuck, I don't need that much shit. And I've got so I've got my rifle and literally the bare essentials, but it's also different. Cause I've got this van and I have really good friends and connections. And I know if I need extra gear, like I'm going to borrow from the locals.

Or there's always a Walmart. That's one thing, like that's the, like what you're doing. Yeah, I would be okay going light too. Cause when you're on the east. Yeah, you might get into some spots, but it'd be like nothing to drive to a Walmart or a Bass Pro and grab whatever you need versus like, how long would it be from our spot to get to the nearest sporting goods store?

You'd have to go back to Bozeman. So you're basically talking about three hours. Yeah, one way that's three hours, [00:12:00] one way, and then three hours back. So you're wasting six hours because you forgot one thing. No, I think it was the day before we met you or the day. No, the day after we met you, we popped a tire on the Ranger.

No, it was the day. We met you that night. We

went back to

Bozeman. We went to Whitehall. Okay. Yep. And I think there was a tire shop in Whitehall.

Oh, you're giving them a little secret. You're giving them a little nugget. Yeah, nice little closed small town. It's a good gift.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said.

No, we didn't go to, I can't remember where we went. That's alright. It was a long ass way,

it was probably Dillon. Dillon's the next big town.

No, because we, I know where Dillon is and we didn't go that direction. We went completely. Yeah, I think we went back to Bozeman, basically. Is there one in between Bozeman?

I don't know. No. Yeah, I think we went back to Bozeman. Because the tire shops were also closed, which was really fun. But yeah, so we met you, we hunted the rest of the night. We got into a herd that [00:13:00] night, I think.

Yeah, I remember this because we got into a herd last night after we split we got into a herd We probably saw 60 elk in this herd. I mean it was a month. It's the biggest herd I've ever seen in September We had we could have shot some spikes, but those obviously weren't legal We had a couple satellites playing and then I had a cow at 60 yards, but she was like super on to us cuz We were in a bad spot.

We couldn't set up, it was too open and she dive bombed us. And so I didn't shoot. We get back to the ranger and we're taking one of the worst ranger roads I've ever seen in my life. Like just, I think ranger wouldn't let their test engineers take their equipment up that road. Some of those,

some of those like almost vertical roads back in there are, yeah, they're like, they should be more like hiking trails now.

Just they're not, it's crazy.

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That's one word Western rookie to save 150 on your steelhead outdoor safe. Yeah, we were on one of those vertical ones. And we popped a tire on the Ranger. One of the drive tires. No. Yes, it was a drive tire. So the right drive, like the right steering tire, we popped it. Coming down and we didn't come down very far and it's like dark.

And so gosh, darn it. All right. We like, we're both engineers. So okay, how do we fix, how do we work the problem? How do we fix the problem? And my brother's I could drive it up on this log. Like we could wedge this log under the axle and then use the rear tires to push it up and lift the front end up.

And we're like, great, how are we going to get the tire off? And he's I got this toolkit and the toolkit [00:16:00] didn't really work. Like we couldn't get, I think he was missing the socket size we needed. And we couldn't do it with a Crescent wrench or like an adjustable wrench. And so that basically took that plan out of commission.

So we're like I got to walk home. And our plan was to just knock on campsite doors until we could find a four wheeler to borrow. And so we walked up, but the problem was, it was dark. And the road goes like a mile away from camp, and then two miles back to camp, but you have to cross the river three or four times.

And so I'm saying, hey, if we just dive off this side of the cliff, it's two miles shorter, and we have only one river crossing. But we've never gone that way before, and it's dark. And as soon as we start, a thunderstorm rolls in. Nice. Wonderful. Yeah, this is a great, this is a great day. Finally get back. We talked to the first neighbor, luckily they were super cool and they let us They let us borrow one of their four wheelers because they had two, and it was just two of them using them.

And but yeah, it took us, the whole point of this story I was getting into, [00:17:00] is it took us, so we woke up at daylight, got their four wheeler, we, I had to go up the mountain, take the four wheeler, the Ranger tire off, come down the mountain, we had to get in the pickup, go to town, fix the tire, come back, then I had to go up the mountain, put the tire back on, come down the mountain, and get my brother, then go back up the mountain, Cause the, it was way too bad of a road to put a tire and a brother on the four wheeler at once and come back down, give them their four wheeler back and then we could hunt.

And by that time it was like let's just glass for the evening. Cause it's evening already. Like we wasted an entire day just going to town to fix a tire. Yeah, that's tough. So it was also like 70 degrees.

Moral of the story. Moral of the story. It sounds like come overly prepped for the Western hunt and it's okay to skimp out on these.

Yeah. Yeah, in the East it's easier to accommodate for sure. Yeah, the West is a little bit harder. But yeah, I just think it's funny how light you go. Cause when I say, I think I did it the best I've ever done [00:18:00] it. I was probably at 20, somewhere between 20 and 25 pounds in my pack for a full day in the mountains.

Yeah. And I also went overboard this year of like right before running season, I got into a meal routine where I'd eat one. Basically 500 calorie meal a day. So I could wake up and bring no snacks in and I could do an eight mile day without a calorie because my body was used to being on empty all day.

And I'd eat a huge meal at night and then I'd crash and I'd wake up and I'd do it again. So even like the granola bars, I didn't even really need to bring those and. And it's also, again, just different when you're in the routine of just bringing the minimum shit because Hey I'll drink a lot of water later too.

It's a different kind of mindset. It's all the

mindset shit. Yeah. That's funny because the food really wasn't the big thing. Like I brought one thing I really liked was the food I brought this year. So I brought everything that went into my pack for snacks was at least 150 calories per ounce.

I had [00:19:00] cooked bacon. I think that was actually the lowest one. But fully cooked bacon, so it's like stable at room temperature. And then I vacuum sealed the bags. But I think those are like 140 grams per ounce, or calories per ounce, trail mix cheese, like just cheese, like sticks of cheese that are individually wrapped, all this stuff.

So this food really wasn't the big thing that weighed up. It was the gear. Yeah, but it's crazy how fast stuff adds up. Cause like game bags don't weigh a thing. My kill kit is like one Randy Newberg knife with the three blade exchange system. It's the, I think it's the EBS knife. And a knife sharpener, which I'm sure that weighs a pound because the knife sharpener is like a brick.

It's like a, it's like a key fob for your truck, but it's solid steel. Yeah,

I'll be very honest. I struggled through the last 30 percent of my bowl this year because I didn't bring a knife sharpener. So that is now one of the essentials. I have three knives and [00:20:00] no sharpener and I burned through all three blades and then I was trying to cut.

Cut with a dull knife and that was ass. So definitely for the listeners knife sharpener is an essential

I've been there before in North Dakota I shot a bull and it was like the hide on His neck was an inch thick like you could see where the hair stopped and where the meat starts and there was an inch in Between and I was it's mine.

I'd make it like two cuts and I'd have to sharpen my knife again But yeah a little night a bit. It's still that's not much my emergency kit doesn't weigh a pound And it's got some stuff in there that's fire starter flash tarp and then just I basically rely on athletic tape, if you get, if you shoot yourself in the knee with your arrow, or cut your entire calf.

I'm just going to stuff a shirt on your leg and tie it as tight as I can with athletic tape. And that's going to be how we get you out, but yeah, a little bit of paracord, not much weight there. A puffy jacket, virtually no weight with a puffy jacket. [00:21:00] I didn't even bring rain gear this year and it rained every day.

I just brought a rain tarp, which was less than half the weight of my rain gear. And it was big enough to put two or three people under. So then everyone stays dry.

Yeah, no, it's nice. That was one of the things in my back to is I bring basically like my sleeveless. I don't know. I think it was a correlate weight hoodie originally because I just I've got a bunch of buddies that work for sick.

So I got a bunch of free gear. Over the last couple of years and I would, get these customer service returns. And I just made a bunch of makeshift sleeveless sick of hoodies. But I'd bring that because it was decently warm and I'd have it. One, basically small hoodie and then the rain jacket.

Cause you know, you're it's 75 degrees during the day, but then the sun falls down and it's 49 and you're like, it's got chilly.

Yeah, it does definitely get chilly. And yeah. And then water. And if I bring three liters of water, that's six pounds to start out. So that's probably the heaviest thing overall, but you're like, none of this stuff seems like it weighs much, but when you put it in a pack, all of a sudden you're at 25 pounds.

No, it all, it

[00:22:00] all adds up the battery, the little stuff that you're like, oh, it's only three quarters of a pound. Oh. And this is only three quarters of a pound. And then you've got 30 different things. It's oh,

okay. Yeah. But I would like to do some more elk hunting where you just get the zone.

It's hard because some places you go into, it's you'd really don't want to go in there without an inReach and an emergency kit, because it's pretty remote. thE place where we hunt is one of those places where I don't feel great about being back in there without... A backup plan, because you can always like, trip and fall and break a leg.


were spot on in I hunted solo, basically this entire year. Besides over in Big Sky, our spot over there, holy cow, I didn't, I don't know if I told you that story, but I shot that muley opening day with my bow. This year? And then it was,

what? You shot one, you shot a muley this year on opening day?

Yeah, full velvet, dude. I'll send you the picture. Oh,

heck yeah. It was badass,

but then four days later, a dude got mauled about a half mile from where my carcass was. [00:23:00] And we were just like, man, oh man cause my shot on the Muley was a little far back. So we let him sit overnight and then we split up in the morning looking for him.

Cause we've seen a ton of grizzly sign about a mile from where we shot them, but a little over this Ridge and we're like, ah, there's no bears over here. We've never seen him before. So we all split up looking for this carcass and my buddy found it. He only went like a hundred yards from where I shot him.

But it was just like, nErve wracking me like fuck like that could have been us because the dude was helping these guys track and there were two Bears that were on this other guy's carcass and you know a bear is not gonna Like you walking up on a carcass if they're on it. So

yeah. Yeah, it's that's one of the things So like some of the way it's okay to me.

Like I'm a big dude. Like I'm damn near twice your size Yeah, I'm a buck 75 okay, I'm not twice your size then, but I'm big, I got you by a hundred pounds and I've, and I'm a, I'm 6'2 So like for me, 25 pounds isn't like that much. It all [00:24:00] adds up, sure. But it's not that's a very comfortable weight for me to do an entire day of hunting.

No, that makes sense. And I'm used to it. I trained for that. We did a spike camp day. I don't know if you've ever spiked out in the mountains. Probably not. 'cause you, like you, you live close, you got your truck, you got your sprinter. But that day sucked. 'cause then we were, we actually we only spiked one night, but we basically backpack hunted two days.

'cause we kept camp on our back 'cause we didn't know where we would end up. And so then I was walking around with a backpacking tent, a backpacking sleeping bag. a Water filter, and that day was probably closer to 35, 40 pounds.

Yeah, when you're carrying camp with you, it's a totally different ball game.

But it wasn't terrible. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. For some reason, we did decide to climb up to three or 11, 000 feet that day, just to say we did it. And we could have done that on any of the days we didn't have campfire back, but, um, but yeah, it wasn't like, it would be, I think it'd be really fun to backpack [00:25:00] into a good early season, mule deer spot.

It would be, I just sent you the photo of the deer.

Oh, I'm going to pull it up right now. Probably going to take a while. Oh, there it comes. That is awesome, man. Jesus. That's a big fork. I've never seen a fork that big. I know it

was AIDS. I was telling my buddies about it. Cause it was like, it was a right at dusk shot.

I got this one filmed on the GoPro too, so that was, it's a fun video with the Illuminaux and because it's dusk, like the Illuminaux looks like the brightest thing in the world. But it was a inside 30 yard shot and he was just looking at me. I was coming up the trail and I stepped, I drew back and then leaned back behind this bush.

And plugged them and he took off and it was like, he just seeing the size of his rack. I didn't count the points because I didn't want to freak myself out, but he looked like a big buck. So I was like, he must've been a four, maybe a big three. And then we came up and I. I [00:26:00] was just like, shit, it's a giant


I suppose if his head was just at the right angle too, it might've looked like you were looking at one side as a four by, but really you were looking at both sides, but yeah, who cares? That's a great book and it's my first, it's my

first buck on my bow too. So I was like, Hey, I'd rather take a buck.

That's maybe more mid with my bow than a

giant with my rifle. Yeah. No kidding. And the other thing that I was going to ask you, so you. The picture is black timber. Not quite black timber, but very close. Like you didn't shoot them in the foothills. No, I shot him in that timber. Yeah, so my question was like, were you just basically still hunting mule deer in the timber?

Cuz I think... No. Alright, ready? Yeah. Let's hear how you went about it. I

got stupid lucky and we were hunting elk and this was just a stupid mule deer that, that was not running away when he saw me. So I, we were... [00:27:00] Elk hunting. We got into a bugling bull opening day. It was epic. It was like 2 p. m. when we ran into him.

Just stupid, crazy. And we didn't get a shot on them. I was just calling that day, helping some of my buddies and they got, they had a couple shots at some cows at 30 and 40 yards. But there was a decent six point bull that was hovering around 80, came into 50 at one point, gave them those shots and then they wandered off.

They didn't wind us. But they kept moving and we didn't hear him call anymore. So we decided to circle back and then on our way back, there were these three switchbacks back up to the main ATV trail where these people, these tourists will ATV year round and then they'll snowmobile in the winter and ATV all summer.

It's this tourist little rental place. And so the deer are used to seeing four wheelers and used to seeing people, but now it's hunting season. So it's just like the opening couple of days, the mule deer bucks are just stupid. We're walking back and there's this other four point bull that I was not expecting to see as we're walking back and he busted out [00:28:00] and I was just disappointed and I had my head down and irritated myself for not being on the lookout for, the other elk in the area.

And then there's this monster four point muley and a couple of does. That's just meandering on this trail. So my buddies and I just split up thinking one of us might be able to still hunt and move in on them and have a we can all shoot 70 yards. We'd just train really hard and never saw him.

And then I stopped seeing my buddies. And then I'm just moving up and I'm still just like beating myself up for not seeing this bull and I'm just walking down this closed ATV trail and I'm walking like a decent pace. I'm not hunting anymore. It's four minutes before shooting light and I'm just trying to get back to camp.

And I'm just walking at a pretty decent pace. Oh, and then there's this muley 27 yards to my right and I happened to take one more step behind this bush. And I like, was like, was that a deer? And I slowly leaned back out. And he's just standing there broadside looking at me.

And I leaned back behind the bush, ranged him, I [00:29:00] think it was 26 or 27, drew my bow back behind the bush, leaned back out, shot him, and that was it. And I was like, wow! That was easy muley bow hunting. So I, it was not a muley hunt and I'm not a great muley archery hunter. We were on an elk hunt and I just happened to run into a stupid muley buck.

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Go to maverickhunting. com and use the code WESTERNROOKIE. That's one word to save 10%. That's right. 10 percent on your Maverick hunting ponds. Even good any day of the week. But because you're the second person that we've had on the podcast recently that has shot a nice velvet mule deer in the black timber and I'm like, How are you guys shooting these bucks in the black timber?

Are you just going out and you're just going to be like, I'm going to still hunt this. There's lots of deer in the area. I'm going to run into one. Eventually both of you said I was on an elk hunt and you stepped out. Yeah,

I swear. I swear. That's the thing. And I joke about it, but it's like, Hey, if you want to shoot a nice bull, go on a Muley hunt.

And if you want to shoot a nice mewling, go on an elk hunt.

To me, if I was going to go on a mewling hunt, I would be hunting different places. I'd be hunting, especially with a bow, like I'd be hunting places where I [00:31:00] can glass and put one to bed and then sneak in on them. Sounds like maybe I should just go for a walk in the black timber and...

Be in deary areas like there's, all those places in the West where there's just deer um, and it really is typically like places where there's more people, like they're lower, maybe near trails more. And you just go hunt those places and just be around like places with deer, like the place you and I elk hunt, we only saw does, we didn't see a single buck in two years of elk hunting that.

And so I just don't think that would be a great spot to walk

around. I've been hunting it since 2020. And I've also maybe seen one buck in that whole area that we hunt all the way back. I've gone crazy far back, just up towards that mountain in the back, right? And that whole left side Ridge hikes that shed hunted it, put in the miles, never seen a buck, but there's, there's deer sign everywhere and there's no chance that's all those.

So there. I swear there's [00:32:00] monster bucks up there. I think they're just ghosts, which gives you even more respect.

I think that's that situ like that scenario, that area, I think is a great example of where you could find a monster buck. It's not known for mule deer hunting, but it's got pretty good mule deer habitat.

Especially like halfway in. There's some great mule deer habitat, and you'd think like there should be mule deer everywhere around here, and There's not, just does, but I think that's where you find one buck that just lives there And no one messes with them because nobody hunts mule deer in there And I bet if you ran trail cams in that unit on water sources or something, I bet you'd get pictures of giants.

Yeah, probably.

I'm with ya. It's funny how you shot your first mule deer with a bow this year. My wife just bought a new Hoyt, and she just gives me crap because I have a Matthews and now she has a Hoyt. So she wants to join the Hoyt bandwagon and give me crap for shooting a Matthews. But she wanted to shoot the first deer [00:33:00] on our farm with our bow.

And she wanted to shoot a buck with her bow. It wasn't the first year in the farm, but it was her first buck off the farm. And it was her first deer with a bow. And obviously her first buck crazy thing is I've never shot a buck with my bow. I've only shot does every time I've never had a buck within bow range that I was willing to shoot.

That's tough. So

she's going to, she's going to hold that to you.

She's a she already hinted that it like, Hey, by the way, Out of the two of us, I've been the only one that shot a buck with my bow, which I'm just a little, I'm just a little better than you. She's two for one. I shot one doe this year and she shot a buck and a doe this year.

So she's ahead of me. And I think it's great, honestly, but it is something where it's you think about it, you're like, I actually haven't shot a buck with my bow. I've shot lots of does. I just have never had a buck. The thing is with whitetails, I was at a point in my whitetail hunting journey where I was trying not to shoot two year olds.

Anymore and three and maybe even three year olds [00:34:00] anymore by the time I got big into bowhunting And you know It's so easy to age a deer when you're bowhunting like you can't mess up and shoot a young deer bowhunting because they're so close With a gun it's really easy to oh that looks like a big eight pointer and you shoot it and it was like a medium eight pointer Because it was so far away And so I just haven't had a three year old within range.

I had a five year old within range two years ago. 55 yards. I just decided not to shoot because it was a little far for a whitetail, especially a spooky whitetail, that's going to jump the string. And my my niece got him that year. So that's how I know he was five. He was 160 inch, basically eight pointer with junk.

But yeah, so I was like, yeah, I got to up my game a little bit, keep up. But she she shot it. We're in the same stand together. He came in. She drew back and I wasn't thinking he was going to, she was going to shoot. Cause he was slightly quartering to not very much. Also flap smack, just [00:35:00] crushes this deer and she's shooting 60 pounds as a female, which is pretty heavy and I'm pretty sure I have to go, the deer's hanging right now on the tractor.

I'd have to go take the hide off. I'm pretty sure she went right through like part of his front side, shoulder blade. And then like double lunged them and then out, the other side and just crushed them. It is so much better shooting 60 pounds than like 40 pounds from my experience. Because I've had female, I've had girlfriends in the past that would shoot like a 40 pound bow at her draw length.

And then, she's only got a 25 inch draw, but now she's shooting like a Hoyt, like a men's bow, a Hoyt, 60 pounds. It's like a 340 IBO bow, like a full size bow at 60. It's just a world of difference. She's shooting a big two blade expandable and she's still punched right two holes in it.


That's sick. Yeah. I haven't had much experience again with shooting deer with this as [00:36:00] being my first one. And I just dropped my rifle for the Pennsylvania and the Texas hunting. But yeah, I mean my draw weight is at 75 and I, I've had elk shoulder hits before and it has not penetrated all the way through and the arrow snaps halfway down.

And it's It's just so different with elk, but yeah, I'm sure is 60 typically gonna be plenty to punch through an elk White tailed shoulder.

I think it depends on a lot of factors And so I'm gonna say no, I would not say you're safe by any means. I think she nicked the thin part of the blade You know, she definitely didn't hit it like square on the back,

the backside of the shoulder.

So yeah,

skinny part. Yeah. Yeah. She's if she hit it at all. I think, so you'll have

to you'll have to update me when you do smoke one, when you do process it, like to actually inspect where the

air went through. So it stuck through, so it poked two holes in the deer, but then the fletching got caught.

And so it was basically like [00:37:00] center mass equal, like it was sticking out two inches on both sides. And and then we saw him crash, and when he crashed, the arrow pulled out. But, so I would say with a whitetail, it depends, I think it mostly depends on your broadhead, and the weight of your arrow.

So for example, I'm shooting a 70 pound bow, and for a while, I was shooting my elk arrows, so they were 600 grain arrows with a single bevel fixed blade. And I think I could shoot one, I think I could pretty confidently break at least one front shoulder, maybe two front shoulders on a deer. With that said

yeah, that's a that's a beast of a rod I remember we talked about that in the mountains last year.

Yeah, I shot my bull this year with a 125 grain three blade

fixed blade Yeah, I used to shoot that all the time I used to shoot that and my brother used my brother has killed four bulls with a hundred grain like small four Or a four blade broadhead, but he's never had a pass through. And so he wanted to switch it up, but yeah, I shoot them[00:38:00] pretty big broadhead or a pretty big arrow for Elkin.

And I did switch back. So our new farm is a really thick swamp jungle, and I'm worried about tracking deer through that jungle. So I switched to a wider broadhead because. If I don't hit a shoulder, I'm gonna get a pass through for sure with my setup. And so I shot a doe, and sure enough, I buried my arrow into the food plot with a 2.

3 inch expandable, because I didn't hit a, I didn't hit a shoulder. So yeah, it depends. I think with your setup, if you had a good, solid broadhead, you could punch through that first shoulder on a deer. Especially if you do a thick, single bevel like an iron will. Yeah, I have a buddy that shot a mature buck with an iron will, and he just shot it.

It was quartering two, and he put the bead on the front shoulder, broke the shoulder, and got a pass through. Badass, yeah, that's sick. I wouldn't do it on an elk, for sure, but that's why I have that arrow, is if I accidentally hit a bone, hopefully it saves me. It should crush through it, right? Yeah, and I want [00:39:00] two holes in an elk, and I don't want my arrow plugging the holes.

I just, I want, a pass through. And so that's why I do that arrow. But yeah, it's a nice to know, like I can shoot where I want to shoot with my bow. And that's why I want to go to an 80 pound. I want to go to a 31 inch draw, 80 pound bow next

30 inch draw,

80 pound bow, 31 inch. I'm right at the border of like between 30 and I'm like a 30.

5 draw. And I know like the archery people will tell me then just get a 30. 5 because you can get the half inch mods. How tall are you? Six, two. But my arm span is 76 inches. So that's six, four.

Yeah. I was going to say, I feel like I, my draw length was 30, but maybe that's wrong. How tall are you?

Six foot. Yeah, that's pretty close. Probably my brother's 5'10 and he shoots 28 and a half. Damn. Okay. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, you're probably there You [00:40:00] might be a little long, but sometimes it depends on the bow and it depends on your release and a bunch of my

bow shoots straight.

So that's good.

Yeah, that's all that matters. Yeah. Yeah I want to get that extra energy for elk hunting for sure So did you ever by the way, you also shot a bull with your bow this season, too? So you shot a buck and a bull with your bow, right? Yeah. I'm tagged out in Montana, man. That's a big part of why you decided to go on a road trip.

The plan was to go on the road trip anyways, but I wasn't planning on leaving until end of October after rifle season ended. And that was the whole thought was, all right, I'm going to fill my tags and then I'm going to leave. And then it was, second week in September and I was tagged out and I was just like, shit, I guess I'm going to leave sooner.

So it got life organized, got the white hall property closed up besides the rental house and. And then hit the road.

That's awesome. So what's the story? So you shot your, you told me you shot your bowl in the same spot. We [00:41:00] hunt. What was the same

exact spot? Did I send you the pin?

No, you don't have to send me the pin.

I, I I will, I,

I will send you the pin.

Cause it's, you said it was on the backside of where we hunt. So I'm expecting there's

the Western where we met that Western ridge line. And then it was over the top of that, and there's a little piece of public, you could find it if you want on Onyx right now, that does this L, it's this small chunk that shoots into the private.

You're talking about the, there's like a valley that shoots through the private and then you get into public again? That's like a little hidden valley up in there?

So it's not a hidden valley, it's like the complete other side. Oh, you go, oh. Where it goes back down into that huge valley on the back


Oh, gotcha, where the big ranch is, the ranch headquarters.

Exactly, yeah, spot on. One up there and I'd been hunting, our normal spot, but one over that backside, because I was just looking at Onyx, and I was like, hey, there's these two timber patches, it's gonna be a bitch of a hike. But my dirt bike, I've got this electric dirt bike, as you saw, and it allowed me to get like [00:42:00] a mile in ish.

And then it was only maybe a mile and a half pack in, came in, and it's just open sage, and then got up into this timber. And I was like, this is cool. This is a badass spot because it's remote. You can't get to it. It seems like private. But it's a public chunk and there were a couple of carcasses here and there.

I thought I was going to run into a shed. It just seemed very Elky and scary and remote and like in a back there spot. Yeah. So I was thinking this is gonna be money and I rip a bugle and there's nothing, and I walk a couple hundred yards through some quiet cow calls into the Southern Canyon because there's these two little timber patches, maybe not even a square half mile,


Yeah, I remember looking on the map at those, some of those timber patches and asking my brother like, man, you think it'd be worth going all the way over there? But, because we would've had to walk, so it would've been like a, a three mile walk to get over there.

But also, here's the crazy thing, [00:43:00] the drive from our side over to that side is about

three hours.

Oh, you went down and out and around.

You have to go all the way back to the asphalt, go to the next town, and then take a different highway in and a different long, shitty dirt road.

Oh, I think we were planning on corner hopping. Oh, could have done that too. And we decided ah, it's pretty visible corner hopping spot.

I don't think that's a good idea. Maybe now it would be a whole different story, but

Here's the thing. Here's the fun thing that giant ranch. Yeah. They don't have to say the name, but you know the name. Yeah. I found their phone number. And went to call them didn't answer was late at night because I wanted to let my bull sit and I he was Clearly gonna die on public Yeah, but I wanted to try and get permission to cross the private line because it would have been way easier access Yeah, so I went to go text the number two and it came up as iMessage and I was like what?

So I sent him a text Hey, I shot a bullet right on the border of your property Do you mind if I go and retrieve it if it is on your [00:44:00] side and they texted me back? seNd location police. I sent them a pin right on the border of private and public on this little spot. And they said, yes, you can go get it, but no drive and it's packout only.

Okay. And I was like, these guys just gave me permission to cross on their property. This is great. So just thinking back, for future years in that spot, they will let us go get something. And then I took that because it was so far back and I don't like saying this, but no one knows where it is.

So whatever. But I took the dirt bike then just on this access road, almost up to the elk through their property. And it was super cool. Cause they've got, I don't know, 90, 000 acres. It seems like

it's a huge ranch. I, yeah, there's so many cool things about that ranch. I'll have to tell you off air because if I start talking about them and to give them away, but I've talked to that, the owner of that operation.

The first year we were coming out there to hunt about access and stuff. And and then we met the cowboy that works for that ranch, but is in our side of the valley. And that dude [00:45:00] is one of the funniest dudes I've ever met in my life. I bet. He was like your, like our age. His like, just hilarious.

He's one of those guys that everything that comes out of his mouth. Just makes you like keel over laughing. I

remember you telling me some of his stories in the camper and shit. Oh God. It was

hilarious. Yeah. Super funny. Oh yeah. He was funny. But yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

Let me, so I'm back there and it was super goofy.

So I'll tell you, I don't know how much time we've got on here, but I'll make sure you got plenty and quick. So I'm back in these timber patches and it was like a hit or miss. Like I'm all the way up here. It would suck if there's nothing. And it's, it was just nice. Peace of mind, because I'd run into a bunch of hunters on our side.

Like this year, there were a bunch of people hunting. I think I ran into four different dudes, like four separate hunting parties. And I covered a lot of ground, like I, I put miles [00:46:00] on the days before. But still, it was frustrating to see four dudes and no elk. I'm back there, nothing's happening.

And then maybe it's 25 minutes before shooting light. Huge mule rips off. And I was just thinking, thank God, I'm 100 percent sure this is not a hunter, and he was smack dab in the middle of the public with hundreds of yards to each side of him, on the edge of this timber patch, the wind was in my face, and I was just so excited, let's fucking go, we're gonna get, we're gonna get a chance.

So I move over, and it's this open ridgeline. Not open ridgeline open face. I've got a video a GoPro video of this shot too. So I'll send you that So that was super fun. I get over and it's just the elk It was a nice five point with maybe 25 cows and they were maybe 300 yards away from the timber and there's nothing It's just sage and open this [00:47:00] and so it was just it was crazy Like how do I do this?

Because I'm I call myself a semi experienced elk hunter but not Like crazy by any means. So I'm sitting there and I'm doing some cow calls and he's ripping bugles. And then I started bugling back and I stayed just far enough back where they couldn't see me. And I was out of eyesight over this Ridge.

And I've got a video on my phone as all the cows are slowly moving into, cause the ones in my face and you can just see nothing. It's just grass and I raise my phone up like towards the sky. And then you just see all these cows at maybe 60 yards, 50 yards. And this bull's just pacing back and forth behind them screaming.

And I was just, how do I get them in a little closer? Cause if I stand up, like I was sitting back on my knees and I'm crouched down in the sage and I can't get up because they're all staring me down. And the closest tree was maybe 50 yards back behind me. I'm like, it felt like I was animal hunting. Like I was in the middle of [00:48:00] nothing.

And then you can see this little black dot, cause we're making all this ruckus. And there's this other decent bull running in from the timber patch that he came from, not exaggerating, was over a mile away. And you see this bull running, coming into the commotion across this open, endless stuff.

I took a video of my phone with that while the GoPro was running so I can send that to you too. But this other bull comes beaming in and this other bull that's with the cows, the main bull. It's still bugling and I'm still cow calling and just keeping him all riled up. And so this other bull comes in and then the bull that was close to me, I don't know if they winted me or what happened, but they circled back around and headed down the hill, stopped coming up towards me.

And I, the other bull came into the herd looking like on the edge and the other bull ran up to him. I was like, I'm going to get to watch a fight. This is going to be epic. But they didn't. And the main bull that I was with before took his cows and they took off. And it's still just wide [00:49:00] open. So I see him, they go maybe a half a mile away and start feeding again.

But then the other bull that ran in started heading up, up towards my direction. And I just thought, all right, no way this is just going to happen. And so he turns back and starts to follow the herd. And I just do one little cow call, just one, just a little Hey, what's up? Hey, I'm here.

I'm horny. And he just turned not straight towards me. But took the edge of the hill up semi my direction and the wind's still in my face. It was a perfect wind, right at dusk. The sun had just set. It's like beautiful or the GoPro video is just sexy. It's just the open orange sky. And he comes up and I can see his antlers and then his head and then his body.

He's at 68 and then 60. And then 54 and then 50 and then 45 and I turned my I'm still just in this sage and I hadn't called again because I didn't want him to see me or know where I was and he's at [00:50:00] 45 ish and I drew back and he saw me draw but not really and he's looking at me just frontal and then he looped back around left just like in his little own spot maybe five feet or so looking at me still and then looped back the other way I was drawn I think for 28 seconds or so and he did a couple circles And then he just gave me a broadside shot and I put the pin at 45 and right behind the shoulder and he took off, ran maybe 110, 120 yards or so and the arrow did not pass through, just like your brother saying it, it went in maybe 75%.

Oh really? And the back half snapped off and he ran and then he stumbled and then he bedded and I just bi knocked him until it got too dark. And I was nervous that I single lunged him only so I let him sit overnight and then came back and he was in the same bed and expired.

That's awesome. Where did the shot end up being?

Once he got up there and got close?

I've got a video of it too. So it went in right behind the shoulder and then it came out the [00:51:00] broadhead was actually sticking out like an inch on the backside, so it, it didn't pass through, but it had an exit. Did

you get like a double lung then? Did it turn out It was like a double lung.

I never, so I just de-boned him. I never gutted him. I don't know for sure, but there was so much blood on the backside. I don't know if I hit the front lung and then the liver and some other stuff. But he got the rigor mortis was crazy in the morning. So he definitely died. I think probably 15 minutes after I shot him.


That's what I was curious about. Like he probably, it sounds like it, if you went a hundred yards and bedded, he's probably hurting.

Yeah, but I'll send you a video. Cause I pull the air out the backside and it was a super good shot. And I was nervous. Did I hit the shoulder again? But it was a perfect right behind the shoulder tucked in.

Did not hit the shoulder. I think again, yeah, just a lighter arrow, not having enough.

Puncture force. Maybe what's your, so what broadhead do you shoot? Is it like a hellraiser?

I don't know. I don't know the name. [00:52:00] I don't know the name, but it was a fixed blade for four blade, one inch,

one inch diameter.

That kind of sounds like a slick, tricker ish whacker. I think they've got a couple of those four blade, one inch. And then you have a 30 inch draw. Are you shooting like a heavy arrow, or do you have a standard, 450 grain arrow?

I don't know what the arrow is. I'm so sorry. I'm like, not super knowledgeable about my gear.

It was like the arrows that I first bought when I got my bow and I've just been shooting those. So

are they micro diameter? No, they're the regular ones. Okay. That's fine. Not everyone's a gear. I'm just a gear nut, but you probably have an average weight arrow. And so your total arrow weights probably in the 400s.

wHich isn't necessarily light, but it's also like people wouldn't call it heavy. So you're just in the middle and that's what a lot of people shoot.[00:53:00] yEah, I don't know. It could definitely be like weight. If you didn't hit a bone, it wouldn't really be your broad head. Like a two blade obviously is going to penetrate deeper than a three blade or a four blade, but then you have less cutting surface too.

I think it's, it might be mostly like weight. Yeah, that's

that's fair. But anyways, it goes to show the gear. The gear is very important I don't wanna say the gear isn't important, but like your shot placement is gonna play a bigger role than the

gear Oh 100 percent always.

Yeah. I just sent you I just sent you two more videos.

The second one Is the pass through the entry and the exit. You can see on the, it's still sending. Oh yeah, you

can see the broadhead's just Yeah, like it was just poking into the hide. Yeah, that looks like the same, That looks like almost the exact same broadhead that my brother used to shoot.

And then the other video that you're about to get just shows the entry, And then I hit, just go around it, it's like a 20 second

video. Oh jeez, that looks like you might even got some heart in there. That was a good shot. Yeah, it looks like [00:54:00] he was slightly quartering too, Or maybe started to wheel. No, he was

perfectly broadside.

I think I might've in that entry, hit a rib and the arrow turned and then took that angle back to the right.

Yeah, maybe. That definitely could have happened. But yeah, that was a great shot. People would pay money to have that shot. Yeah,

exactly. Yeah, it was, yeah, 40, 45 yards, but just crazy.

I'll find the GoPro video and send that to you. Just to have, it was my first time elk hunting, not in any timber, nothing to hide behind. Open, openness. It was, I was nervous, but it worked out. So

you've gotten into bowls in a couple different places in that spot. Now, with this success out in that open country, would you go back to the open country first, or are you gonna stick with like timber, and if that doesn't work, eventually bounce out to the flats?

Yeah, no I'll stick to the timber just because that, our main side, there's so much more land because if I had gotten back to this spot and those elk weren't there, then I [00:55:00] couldn't have hunted anything else. It's I'm going to go check this one area and there's either going to be elk or there's not.

And I just got super lucky. Again, it's where you put in the right amount of time. You're going to find elk. But definitely starting on our main side

first. I think it's way easier to get to our main side. Like you said, there's more terrain, but I think what we've figured out in that unit, we've only hunted it twice.

We haven't hunted it as much as you have, but like where you went, it seems like that's their escape route. Like when they get too pressured on the main side. They head over to where you were hunting. And so that's probably Hey, we, I hunted this two days. They're not here. Now I'm going to go to that third spot because I think, that's where they typically go when they get pushed out of here.

Correct. Then the next morning when I was hiking back in to get the bowl there I pushed more cows out of the same little timber patch and they were there the next day after, after the other hurt that was mainly there had taken off. So I think it's a, I think it's a really good spot.

I wonder

[00:56:00] if that would be a good spot to set up with a rifle, like opening morning, get in there early. And when everyone on the main side pushes over, I don't know. The only problem would be like, if you get there and there's like already three people. Shoot. I put all my eggs in this basket.

Yeah. What else are you going to do?

Yeah. I don't know. Rifle. What it would be. It would be the same as archery. It's a hit or a miss. You're like taking your gamble there. And then I just. The GoPro video just delivered. It's three minutes and eight seconds, so don't watch it right now, but when we're done, give it a peek.

Oh, yeah, it does look sweet. I'll just fast forward to the end and then back up. Oh, yeah, it was picture perfect. Yeah, I see him. The

bow gets in the way, but you can see the Illuminauk take off at the very end, like the bow moves out of the way and you can see the shot.

I don't know why it was all.

Man, he's giving you like, he was just walking, he's just putting on a show in front of you.

Spinning around he did three circles just to be like, I'm not gonna give you broadside I'm not gonna give you broadside.

[00:57:00] Yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're out in the middle of nowhere that's where everyone dreams about alconic is in that type of habitat.

Oh, yeah, it's not

ideal it's like a fake dream. Yeah, but I think they

dream about it with a rifle Oh yeah, that's there. Yeah. I'm just watching them. I just saw you shot now. I'm watching them run down the hill.

That's awesome. Yeah. You have to turn your GoPro sideways. I always had to do that when I was trying to film with a GoPro on my head, I always had to turn it like this because I wanted to make sure when I'm drawn, I'm at a square shot. Then when I was trying to film stuff without a. I was always had my head like sideways being like, Hey, can you say that again?

And then I'd look over to the side. It felt stupid. It just, it's hard to self film anything.

It is. But then again, I shot that. I shot that bull on a Wednesday night. [00:58:00] And that, that's the elk success rate in Montana is 10%. So we can take that two ways. Either you're going to get a bull every 10 years.

If you hunt in Montana or one out of 10 people gets a bull in the hunting season. And I've shot a bull every year that I've hunted since 2020, which was my first year hunting in Montana when I was 18, so it's part of it is because I have the ability to hunt during the week and I, have the attitude going into the season of I'm going to hunt until I get one, which a lot of people just don't have the ability to really do.

Yeah, especially non residents we got to go home eventually. Yeah,

exactly. And there's just life, there's work, there's kids, there's things, there's life. Life comes up. But that catch for me is just most of the people that I have relationships with in Montana are normal people with normal jobs, and they can't take a Wednesday off to go hunt.

So it's it took me six and a half hours to pack him out the next day, solo, getting all [00:59:00] the meat back to the ice. tHat was a pain.

Yeah, but like luckily you could do it. Like luckily you could take a Thursday off. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely helps when you can find a job like that. Unfortunately, there's not enough of those jobs for everyone, yeah. But it's funny, but there's enough for you, right? If someone's listening to this, not everyone can get a job like Will, but you could.

Yeah, exactly. It's just the again It goes back to the mindset and the abundance and like we're in the united states And there's so many businesses out there and there's so many work from home positions and there's like you can start any Type of deal where you're just in control of your time and your money and stuff worst case scenario like go get a Commissioned sales position if you want to do and then no one's gonna tell you to take time on or off That's up to you And then you grind before hunting season and you make your money and then you take some time off during hunting season

I thought if I went back and did if I could take what I know now and I go back to 18 [01:00:00] I would have done a lot of things differently But I always thought accounting would be one like hack for me Because I'm really good at math.

I love finance. I love investing. I think I could have been a great accountant slash certified financial planner. But then I could just bust it during tax season and maybe some consulting in the summer and just take falls off. So I think that would have been a good hack. Plus it would have if you're an accountant, you're probably pretty good at budgeting anyway.

So you could do all that. And then I would definitely start all of this other stuff on the side sooner. Imagine if you could just do podcasts and talk to people. And build up your platform and maybe come up with some products, maybe slowly get into some investments that start paying you cashflow.

And all of a sudden you just hunt, you hunt and you talk to people like that would be a dream life.

It's really going back to day one, which again I got into the business world pretty early. And just the [01:01:00] sort of passive income generating businesses. But that's like talking to, you're familiar with Robert Kiyosaki, right?

And just that idea of teaching a younger person, Hey, if you want to, if you want to actually build a life around hunting or life around not working in nine to five, learn the things that you want to use and recognize that you want to be in that self employed or that business owner quadrants and then just learn about that type of shit.

Don't go to school to get some degree, like start. A business and fail and then start another business and mess up again Get mentors and coaches and teachers that have been there and get really good at business and running stuff and creating profits because Jim rone says that the best like wages make you a living and profits Make you a fortune.

And if you can build something that is profiting, it's going to pay whether you're there or not. And then the wages you have to trade your time for. So again, the business ownership side where you're not

required for a job is the best. Yeah. I think, oh, and it's important to, even if you don't like hunting, [01:02:00] obviously anyone that listens to this podcast is a hunter, but whatever it is you'd like to do.

Yeah. This can help you do more of it. I take a hybrid approach. I Know Robert Kiyosaki would say Oh, by the time you're 12, start when you're 12 and eliminate stand and, do your business. Live and die by the business sword and I'm like, yeah, that works for some people But it doesn't work for a lot and that can be scary and I you know, I took the hybrid route I became an engineer.

I got done debt free. I got done a year early got a great job Now I have a great base income to launch pad everything else off of and I you know Maybe I'm just biased the way I did it, but I don't I wouldn't be opposed to recommending someone goes out And figure out something where you can at least get a stable base and maybe that's like a good honestly, like I could be a great trade right now.

You could become an electrician, HVAC, plumbing anything that like just gives you that first leg up on life and [01:03:00] then just try to live, that's really what you want to do is build a portfolio, get that income started and then try to live like. With your college roommate still paying 500 bucks a month in rent versus buying a house for two grand or three grand a month and just start putting all of it towards your portfolio, towards your investment, you know what I mean?

Because if you just start business so imagine you're 21, you don't go to college. You start your business at 21. Like it's going to be very hard to be profitable enough to live life off of for a lot of years if you're starting from true scratch, unless you come up with a golden idea. But that generally doesn't happen very often.

If you're going to start like a landscaping business, like it's going to take you a long time before you can like truly, fund a life and then start building on top of that. But when you do it, The equity you build along the way is super valuable. You just can't, pay your bills with equity when you're starting out.

So that's where I take the hybrid approach, but it doesn't also, I also, by the same token, doesn't mean [01:04:00] go half a million dollars in debt and spend 12 years becoming a doctor. Just to make the money, right? If you want to be a doctor, great. Go be a doctor and save lives. But if you just want the money, there's a lot better ways to do it.


To get the freedom. There's those high paying jobs and stuff and if you're working 60 or 70 hours a week and you're stuck at the job and your family life is suffering or your health is suffering, it's like, what's the fucking point of the money at that point?

When you're 21 and you just got, became an electrician and you're working 60 hours a week, you're probably making a hundred and two hundred and fifty grand a year.

Over time, you're young just stacking checks,

right? And that, that mindset too, I'm super on board with like, when you are in the springtime of your life, it is Hey, this is the time to put in the work so that I can harvest later on. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna grind now and I'm aware I'm making a sacrifice right now.

So that life can be easier and smooth, better later. And I'm not having to be grinding in my forties and fifties. Yeah.

I like a job. So like one. I would, if you were in that grind mode, like if you're at 18 and you're like, I want to figure out something where I can grind. And by 30 I'm living a life most people [01:05:00] dream of, I would really recommend trying to find something where additional hours equal additional dollars when you start, because the whole goal is obviously to break away from trading time for money, right?

You said it, everyone says that, like you want something to be working in the background, but you got to get the money to put it into those vehicles first. Whether that's real estate or business, like you got to start earning something, but like when you're an engineer, for example, I'm salaried, so I work my 40, but if I work 50, I get paid the same, maybe down the road, I'll get promoted faster because I'm doing more work.

But I don't get paid anymore this week because I worked extra 10 hours. I would really look for sales certain jobs like trades where you're getting overtime picking up the ability to pick up shifts, like, when you put more time in to get more money. I would think those would be great options.

No, you're

spot on and, for anyone in the younger side of things or even older and if you want to increase your cash flow, like work on yourself, read the books, listen [01:06:00] to the podcasts, spend the time, invest in yourself. Cause one of the lines I picked up early on again, are you smell a gym run at all, Brian?

I don't, the name sounds familiar, but I can't picture his face. Do

Who's the big motivational speaker that everybody knows Tony Robbins

is probably the number one. So Jim

Rohn mentored him. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. A lot of his material came from Jim Rohn, but he says in some of his talks, his success is something that you attract by the person you become.

Oh yeah. That's a good


And I fell in love with that of the more like we get paid in the United States based on the value that we bring to the marketplace and the more valuable that you can become as a man, the more of an asset that you can actually become, whether you're bringing value to the community or your company or whatever, like that's going to equivalent to your pay.

So if you want to earn more money, it's like, what do you do? You become a more valuable person. You learn more about your industry. You spend the extra time, you become smarter, you get experience. And if you want to have a big impact on a lot [01:07:00] of people, you need to learn the right way to do that. And the info is out there.

There's thousands of books about millionaires and billionaires that learn how to do it. And they wrote down their story and how they did it. And you just have to read the book. So again, that's one of my biggest tips for the young people that want to get ahead is yeah, grind, but also make yourself a more valuable man, make yourself a more valuable person and invest

in yourself.

Yeah. Man or woman, whoever you are, man or woman. Yeah. We're just two guys. That's how it's easy. I always fall in that trap of I'm talking to a guy. So I refer to everything as Oh, if you're, if you want to do this as a guy or whatever, it's I forget. So there's probably three females that listen to the podcast.

At least I'm trying to get more female guests to make it more, inclusive and, there's probably a lot of girls out there that are like, I love hunting, but I never I want to find a podcast that has like a female voice more often so I can connect with it better. So I'm always trying.

Yeah. You could just talk in like a girl voice too. I don't know

If I can get that register I would, if I could have, maybe I [01:08:00] would, I'm just saying physically, I don't think I can. iT'd be a little tough. Yeah, it would be, but awesome, man. Just like that. We racked up over an hour.

But thank you for being here. It's always exciting to touch base and see how your falls are going. You're crushing it. You're doing better than I am bucking a bowl under the belt. And it's not even, it wasn't even October when you were tagged out.

It was mid, yeah, it was mid September that I tagged out Montana, but I, the plan is to shoot one of those native Texas things or not native, but the invasive ones that they're like are unlimited

tax for.

What are they called? Non game species or invasives some people call them exotics, just depends. Typically when people say exotics, they're talking about like African animals so there's elk in Texas that you can hunt year round because they don't consider them a game species because they were brought back artificial, like it was human interaction.

Elk used to be in Texas. It's those black ones. thEre's black Buck. Oh

wait, is it a note? Neil, new

guy Neil, guy Lange. [01:09:00] Neil guy. Yeah. Neil. Guy's like a, yeah, it's like a big African antelope species. I think. So I wanna,

I wanna shoot one of those in Texas and then I'm gonna shoot a monster white tail probably right after Thanksgiving.

Not a monster. A monster for

Pennsylvania. I was gonna say a Pennsylvania monster is its own, it's got its own measurement stick. But yeah, definitely would be fun. So I'll send you, I'll

send you those photos and, and that should be my hunting season is just those

four. Awesome. That would, that's a great season, man.

Yeah, I do. Thank you for having me on here. Always fun hanging out.

Yeah. Thanks for being here and thank you for listening folks.