Right now in the hunting community there is a hot topic of discussion surrounding cellular trail cameras and how they align with fair chase hunting ethics. On this episode of the Nine Finger Chronicles, Dan talks with fellow podcaster Byron Horton about their opinions on this matter and how they feel it will affect hunting in the future. Ethics, tradition, the definition of fair chase are all up for discussion on this weeks episode. It get pretty emotional! Please visit the Nine Finger Chronicles and Sportsmen's Empire social media pages and voice your opinion.
N.F.C - Cell Cams, Fair Chase, Heated Rants
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What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The Nine Finger Chronicles. I'm your host, Dan Johnson, and today's podcast is really good. It is a really good episode. Right now the hot topic coming out of the ATA show is cellular trail cameras and the ability to live. Like basically livestream security camera, pull up however you wanna look at it, to pull up what is happening in the woods right now.
And there's, the debate comes when you can take that technology and you can take the to, livestream, hop on your phone and basically almost hunt from your couch. You're on your couch, you're you say, Hey, I wonder what's out there right now. Let's just say for an example, you put a camera on a food plot.
Hit the [00:02:00] livestream button. Some cell cameras even have the ability to pivot and rotate. So you can zoom in, you can zoom out, you can rotate left, you can ro rotate l it's almost like a security camera where you have the ability to just, I don't know that's exactly what the term is, live feed from your woods.
And so there's a lot of debate on whether this is fair chase. Okay. And as you'll hear in this episode, like the term fair chase, like I, I just feel like there's not a definition for what Fair Chase is anymore when it comes to deer hunting. And so everybody gives their opinion, but there's not really any type of, I don't know.
There's really not any type of. Like hard defined black and white, a definition of what Fair Chase is. And I mentioned something about that. But today's guest is Byron Horton, and if you follow Byron Horton on social media, he gives his full blown [00:03:00] opinion about cell cams and the direction that some of this technology is going.
I even bring up a bit of a rant that Mark Kenyon recently had on his social platforms in, in, in this episode. And so it's all about cell cams. I, in order to make a good conversation, I play devil's advocate a little bit. I talk about, is there a benefit of cell cams?
Is, cuz there's people out there who say, Hey, cell cams are awesome, I'm gonna use 'em to their full ability. And then there's guys out there. Similar to what Byron's gonna get at today is like, dude, I don't like him. I don't feel like it's fair. Chase. There's certain organizations out there, bun and Crockett, Pope and Young, that have already discussed a little bit about what they feel is fair chase.
And so this kind of led me to want to get Byron on the podcast, express his feelings. I play devil's advocate, I express my feelings and it's just a good conversation. And [00:04:00] really, this isn't meant to divide hunters because we do a good job of dividing, doing that ourselves. This is just a, another conversation that.
Both of us felt needed to be had. And so that's what today's podcast is about. That's why the title is Cell Cameras Fair Chase and Heated Rants. And so I go on my heated rant, he goes, and it gets emotional man because Byron is passionate about his view here. And a lot of it has to do with raising children.
And where do you want to be? He says do you wanna be in a crook bed with your kid looking at deer tracks, or do you wanna be on the couch swiping on an iPad looking for deer? And dude he makes a great point. And so I want you to listen to just the emotion coming from him and myself in this podcast.
And I really do think that you guys need to share. Everybody needs to come up with, they don't need to, but everybody should come up with their own opinion and then just, communicate with other people about it. And because I have a feeling that in the next [00:05:00] couple years there's go, oh, unprofessional.
Unprofessional. In the next couple years there's definitely gonna be a, where we're going to cross a bridge that says, Hey, our cell cameras. Gonna even be legal or not in, in many states. And so it's just something I feel we need to think about. Excellent episode though stay tuned for another episode later this week with Tony Peterson and it gets outta hand real quick.
You guys are gonna love that episode. Also tomorrow. Yesterday, I guess if you're listening to this, on Wednesday, yesterday, the Sportsman's Empire just launched a brand new podcast called How to Hunt Turkey. So I'm a whitetail guy. I could honestly give two shits about Turkey hunting, but my buddy Paul Campbell over at the Ohio outdoors Podcast, the oh two podcast, he's dude I wanna do a Turkey hunting podcast.
And I'm just like, okay, dude, let's do it. He is, he's, I'm, if I'm the whitetail guy, he's the Turkey guy. So he absolutely loves all things. [00:06:00] All things Turkey hunting. And so we have strictly the what am I saying here? The Sportsman's Empire is not only going to be launching the How to Hunt Turkey podcast, we're gonna be launching an entire network feed.
And as Turkey content comes out from all of the network partners, we're going to be putting all of that on one Sportsman's Empire Turkey hunting feed. And so one, one last little spoiler here. Parker McDonald of the Southern Ground Podcast. He's coming out with his own podcast Turkey Hunting podcast called Limb Hanger, and that's gonna be on the network as well.
You guys, if you're a Turkey hunting nut or you are just, you love hunting, whatever's in season, this spring's gonna be badass because there's gonna be a shit ton of Turkey hunting content coming out, and you I just know you guys are going to enjoy it. But today's episode's badass. Next episode is badass.[00:07:00]
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This intro has gone way too long. So let's just get into a really good podcast with my man, Byron Horton. Three, two, one. Alright, on the phone with me today, another Sportsman's Empire brother, Mr. Byron Horton. Byron, what's up man?
Hey Dan. Thanks for having me on today. It is a it's an odd time of year.
We still have a couple weeks left here in the Buckeye State, but it's your [00:12:00] chances of of getting it done are definitely diminishing, right?
We're done here in Iowa. So it's there's something about having a season end where you're just like, , okay. I don't need to worry about this shit anymore.
It's like season's over. I can go back to like reality and like being a full-time dad, because even late season this year, I had a tag in my pocket. I was just like antsy. I was jumping up and down. I was jittery trying to figure out ways to get out more. And now that, and now that it's it's over, I don't need to worry about it anymore.
Yeah. You're not you're actually a hundred percent present Yes. In your job, in your family, yes. In your life. Yes. I hate to say it.
Yes. All right. Dude, ever since this do you know, what brand was it? What brand of camera was it that just introduced the live feeds on their cell cams.
And also I believe it was the GSM guys, the muddy, the stealth.
, the.[00:13:00] And I haven't seen others, but I also saw another brand offer a live feed with a pivoting ability in a zoom ability. Oh, shit.
All right. All right. Like a 360 ability to, yeah. To dial that
like a joystick. Yeah. So basically just security footage of your timber at all times. Okay.
And that's gonna be the topic of today. I want to talk about this cuz you have a very strong opinion on cell cams, right? Yeah, I have my opinion on this type of technology and ultimately what I want to do is turn this into a what is fair chase type of environment like podcast conversation cuz it's so gray.
And I, and that's my opinion. I feel fair. Chase is very gray and it evolves a, as technology evolves ethics ethics and , technology evolve at different, at different [00:14:00] levels. And that's what I want to talk about today. So I'm just gonna shoot the cannon right off the bat here, and I'm gonna just it's, no, it's no lie.
If you follow you on social media, you are not a proponent of live feeds. On or maybe is it just live feeds or is it cell cameras in general that you're not a big fan of? No. So
yeah, my statement is cell cams in general, and that it is the ability to swipe now on your finger and be 15 to 20 places at one time.
Yeah. Having zero disturbance of the woods spending at that moment, zero time in the woods, and gaining the information. I looked at it as I, I was a little bit quiet about that, but that to me seems to border on is that hunting, is that fair, chase? Is that what we want? The sport, right?
The sport, the passion, the Yeah. Thing we hold so dearly and are passionate about. Is that where we want this to go?
Yeah. [00:15:00] Yeah. And so what is, dive into that a little bit deeper Yeah. As to why you think that way. So
The hunting aspect of it, that is a outdoor pursuit. That is an outdoor passion that falls into outdoor recreation.
Yeah. The word outdoor is there. Yes. And this piece of technology is taking the deer's ability to detect the certain human out of it, but it's also allowing a human to be multiple places. Yeah. He can be in two counties, he can be in three to five states. and we've we've just signed off on it over the years and this technology is now much more affordable.
It's growing rapidly. Five years ago drones were legal. Yeah. And everyone said, oh that's, we don't feel so good about that. And I'm like, a cell cam, right? A drone has a 30 minute fly time, a 10 mile range. One camera, a cell [00:16:00] cam is a, almost just as powerful, if not more.
Yeah. And so that's where I'm like also looking and I was looking at the future too I've been upset with cell cam since day one. That was four or five years ago. Yeah. Where, a tipping point was I videoed a hunt and we just assassinated a dough and Yeah. I felt a lot of the information was like, it was gonna happen.
Yeah. Yeah. And that was because that cell can provided you. right then, and their information that, and it allowed you to make a decision based off of that immediate information on where to hunt that kill that basically got that dope killed, right? Yeah. It
was so like the pattern was established over the week.
We knew the better place to park the vehicle. Yeah. Even because of, we could tell direction. We turned the stand 90 degrees prior to the hunt to favor that left-handed. Let's get a draw. Like we know that's the gen and like we'd spent zero time in the woods. And we knew roughly a 30 minute-ish window to be [00:17:00] looking in a specific direction.
Yeah. So as soon as we heard a noise from that, we knew. Yeah. Yeah. And so we assassinated this dough. And yeah, that was a tipping point for me. We're like, Ooh, I.
Yeah. It just, it became, let me ask you this. What was your feeling that you had that made you go, did I don't like this.
Yeah. And I look at it to, we've had regular trail cams, right? But they jump in. Efficiency of the cell cam is tough to quantitate. But I really felt like there wasn't like the odds were where, and this kind of is a fair trace verbiage type thing, is the sportsman, the hunter had an improper advantage.
Yeah. And again, we had spent zero time in the timber for that week establishing that pattern. Maybe scouting the food sources, looking at tracks like, yeah, it was video game mask. Oh
man. It's it definitely does muddy the waters. In my opinion, of what? Of how you're not actually hunting, you're just gathering intel.
And [00:18:00] so what I look at something like a cell cam, and I honestly feel and this is my personal opinion, I feel like this is gonna have to be up to the the hunters. I don't have cell cams within an hour of my house. Okay? So I still have to for me, my cell cam my cell cams are on one of my farms is three hours away, and the other farm is an hour and 10 ish away, hour 15 away.
And so if I was to pull up my phone and I was able to live, feed and see a big buck there, I still have to drive. An hour to get there. I still have to take the best access route to the stand. I have to know what the wind direction is. I have to know all these things. Cuz but as far as a live feed [00:19:00] is concerned,
like it's not triggering, the camera is, so the deer has to trigger the camera. The camera then goes off, a deer has to get close enough for that camera. I feel like a live feed then extends the range of that cell camera and you can see a further distance back into a food plot or into the timber.
If it generates sound, then you can listen for grunts and yeah, even Turkey gobbles and things like that. Then you can say, Hey man, I'm up. It's time to get in the woods. And so I think what ultimately this is going to lead into is, It it's just gonna be like
a security guard on Yeah.
Yeah. While watching his farm. And again so your cams are three or four hours away. And that's my thing, is the ability to strap some solar panels, scatter more and more cameras right here. Oh yeah. Real of tech technology. [00:20:00] It's gonna get cheaper. And even if you can't hunt, and you are noticing in October you didn't hunt all of October, you've got the starting point.
Yeah. And once you step in the woods in October, we're spending zero time infield in the woods. It's that's an advantage, again, it's not the outdoor pursuit. Yeah. It, I feel like you're, you should reward guys that are in the field, right? You should reward guys that have those primitive skills and abilities because, like in the game of golf or basketball That piece of technology is has evolved.
And do we need to look at it as you, I, I feel like if you want a good jump shot, you gotta go outside and shoot hoops. I can't walk up to the Y and be chucking Steph Curry threes. I have to spend time working on that jump shot. Now, if Nike came out with a shooting sleeve that like took the power into my jump shot for me, and all I had to work on was other things, it's wait a minute.
You really think like the game of basketball would be the game of basketball? Or has it changed?
[00:21:00] Yeah. Yeah. Man it's so opinionated because, how do you say this to, okay, let's say there's a guy out there, his goal is he wants to shoot a big buck, but he works 70 hours a week, right? He's got three kids.
He wants to be out in the woods, but his life is such that he can't, right? how what? And this guy buys a cell cam because he wants to see what's out on this farm, and he wants to be able to be out there at the exact right time. What's wrong with that
dude, Dan? I want to be, a professional golfer.
I, I should have to devote myself to that craft. Yeah. I should have to make time for that craft. If I want to be a good dad, I should have to devote time to my kids. I shouldn't just use FaceTime every day and be, if I was like a traveling salesman, yeah. I could use FaceTime Yep.
To shortcut that. But I should spend time with my kids to better raise
them. Yeah. And by the way I'm trying to play devil's advocate here. Yeah no. But I'm trying to play both sides of this [00:22:00] conversation because ultimately like I said it's gonna come down to like a person.
decision I have yet. Yeah. Like that dough, that story of the dough is a perfect example of you using that intel immediately and then you were feeling dirty about it afterwards, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so for me, I haven't had, I haven't had the opportunity to I haven't had the opportunity to really use that data instantly.
I've had cell cams go off while I'm in the tree, but it's never been of a target buck where I'm gonna rattle it in or I'm going to, whether I'm gonna rattle it in or I'm going to snort wheeze at a certain time to get that buck, oh man, he's only a hundred yards away. If I rattle, he may come in or I've never been able to walk, get it from my truck, walk into the timber and take advantage of it.
So I have never killed a deer because of a cell cam yet. [00:23:00] Yeah. But. . I'm trying to put myself into the shoes of that scenario and I don't think I'm gonna like it, man. I honestly think it's gonna be, it's going to be taking something pure away from the, like the purity is going to be taken away from the process.
The purity that I personally found, so like for deer hunting for me was a story of, let's see, how do I put this? It was a story of man, I was a heavy drinker. I was in a bad space in life. It saved it it literally it saved my life in a way where it took me out of one rut and it took me out of a rut and it put me into a more positive rut.
And you can take, that's a metaphor of course, but . It, in a way, it saved my life. And it was because I was out in nature all the time. Scouting, learning about how [00:24:00] to hunt deer, learning about how to get in certain wind scenarios and access routes and what a rub is, and a scrape is, and things like, so when you have this type of technology, you're able to just cut a whole bunch of things out of it.
And then the pro it has a different, it has a different meaning now, right? Yeah. The equation, the sport has changed. Yes, the sport has changed. And so when you see something like this I was listening to Mark Kenyon. He had a little bit of a rant about this same topic on his Instagram page and the direction of hunting from here.
And he said he was worried about it. Like, where do you see. technology like this taking hunting.
Sure. And that's like a, that's like a major point of this is so in, I think it'd be fun to back up and also like quantify, cuz I do have some thoughts around what we just went from a [00:25:00] trail cam to a cell cam and how much more advantageous that is, I think Yeah.
Would be a funny topic. But yeah so the future, right? So now we have cell cams and now we have live feed and cost of those is only coming down. , the transmission inefficiency of these things the antenna boosters, right? Because you're getting these ability, the, people are making aftermarket parts to make these things better, that are reaching more signal.
I do fear the day that you walk out into the woods and every other tree or every fifth tree, guys are blasting. , small farms with 10 cell cams on 50 acres. Yeah. A and then you edge feather a side of that in, in farm country, you edge feather a 50 yard segment, put a cell cam at the end.
How much more efficient is that setup? Yeah. If you watch Midwest whitetail, the a lot of the guys are hunting, that they get the overnight cell cam picks of a deer going into a potential betting area. It's not a hundred percent, but they're like, based on the direction travel. Yeah. He's in there [00:26:00] now.
If he's coming out in the evening during daylight hours, this is the best ambush point. And I'm like, dude, wait a minute. Yeah, that deer's natural instinct put him in there. There was you put these cell cams right in these areas you don't want to disturb. Yeah. And why is that? Because these areas are.
Areas the deer have identified as a good place based on their natural instincts. And we're bypassing that with being like, okay, let's put it in there one time and not go in there. Yeah. And yep. So yeah I worry the day that a guy literally goes to walk in the woods he opens the app and he's okay, I'm going to stand b show me these 10 cameras that are, essentially small little like glow balls on the side of all these trees.
Yeah. Okay. Let me see the thermal. Okay. Check no thermal heat. Let me review the footage from the prior week. Okay. Oh, okay. He's moving that way two times. Like at some point. It is a very real thing. And let's also mention the fact that this is somewhat money, big buck driven.
Oh, a hundred percent.
I would say that [00:27:00] if in access, yeah. Yeah. And so I would say this, I would say that if Deere did not have antlers, this isn't even a topic. Okay. Or if every deer grew a 120 inch rack and they were all like these, I don't know, just the everything was the same. Like you look at a male cardinal, they all look the same, right?
Yeah. And so people like, but here we are as egotistical driven humans, right? That all then is . That is all that's all people care about is these giant antlers, right? And so now people are gonna go out, they're gonna say, some of the stories that, some of the biggest bucks and I'm not saying every single big buck, but some of the most notable big bucks, I would say 80% of them, of the, let's just say in the past five years, 80%.
[00:28:00] The biggest bucks that were harvested were all on cell cam, on privately managed farms, and they knew exactly where that deer was at. And they, that's, and they killed it early season. Maybe even, maybe they stayed out until it got, it started breaking daylight. It went from nocturnal to late season or pre ru timeframe.
And they knew exactly what tree stand was in because they had that tree stand up. The shooting lanes were trimmed out, and all they had to do was sit and wait. Oh, he came through at daylight. We're in there tomorrow. Boom. Here he comes. And so the and so well go ahead because I, I was gonna use that as a transition, but you go ahead.
I guess the ability too, to find these big bucks now is so much more efficient, right? Because you don't have to physically walk on the farm. Even Dan I did a quick. A quick analogy, a camera, 15 minutes down the road, 15 minute walker, quad runner. In 15 minutes out, you know that takes you an hour, right?
To do one camera, that, [00:29:00] to download your app, right? Swipe and, okay. A minute update to retrieve your pictures. One minute versus 60. That is a 6,000. Over a 6000% efficiency. Yeah. On now. Now that is one swipe. Now let's do that to 15 or 20 cams. And they don't even all have to be on the same farm.
They can be on this piece of public, this lease and my back 40. Yeah. Now so th so now we've done it 15 or 20 times. Now let's do it every 24 hours. So when people wanna argue with me about a trail cam to a cell cam, you know what just happened in the techno? We just quantified one trail camera 15 minutes away.
and Dan, let's put a multiplier on this. What do we give a multiplier of, say, a undisturbed camera? Because that's where you put the cell cams in areas you do not want to disturb to, to have that ability to do the first time sit, which is a very documented attack Yeah. Of, of success. But is that a two x multiplier or a 10 x multiplier?
Yeah, it's somewhere in [00:30:00] there. Yeah. It depends like, so I, I just, from my example, I have some river bottom ground where cell phones or cell phones and cell cams don't work. Okay. , there's no reception down there. And so the trail camera that I have down in there this year it hasn't been checked at all because I didn't hunt that stand location, but previous, I would hunt, I would check that camera.
I would put it up sometime in August or September, let it ride, change batteries and SD cards the first time I went in and hunted it, and then it would just sit there. So we're talking months of, months of just sitting there without it being checked months at a time. Then now and so if there was reception there, I throw a cell cam up, it's every single day I have the ability to get in there and look at what's there.
So Dan, oh my gosh. What do you think the multiplier is on [00:31:00] a undisturbed versus disturbed?
So for somebody who's listening to this and they're saying what's he mean by a multiplier? Explain what you're trying to, what you're talking about. .
So the, like a lot of the efficiency gain, the percent increase of efficiency, right?
Yes. So I look at a at a one-to-one, if I had a cell cam on a tree and a regular trail cam on a tree to get that information, I gotta walk in there and leave boots. These deer can smell me, they can see me that we can't quantify. But I just quantified the math of checking a trail camera 15 minutes away.
Yeah. And it was literally 6000% more
efficient. Yeah. So what you're getting at here then is efficiency through time. It takes me one hour to check a trail camera that's 15 minutes away from my house. Yep. And it's a 15 minute walk, walk, quad runner ride, whatever you need whatever.
So all that in the equation kind of changes, but if I have to go check something that's 15 minutes away, Versus on my phone, there's [00:32:00] a 6000% time saving on that. And that's time not spent in the woods. That's time not scouting looking at thermals or wind or looking at scrapes or rubs.
That's just checking out trail cameras. Now you did that again now for what?
So if you let Susan, so now say you, you run it, you have 20 of these. Yeah.
You swipe the phone every night. There's a hundred days in the season. Yeah, dude,
it is ridiculous. So we started with
6,006, so it's 6,000. But you have to remember, people aren't checking. Their, people aren't checking regular trail cameras every day. . Every trail camera, every day of the season. But
you are checking a cell cam every day of the season. Exactly. Most guys have the 24 hour like download.
pretty safe to say. I would say, I'll be completely honest with you. I [00:33:00] bet Mo most people who run cell cams have, if you're anything like us, they have immediate they're not waiting 24 hours for uploads. I bet you their immediate download. So when they wake up in the morning, everything's there, and then throughout the day they're getting the pings, all that stuff.
So th yeah, that number changes. But that is a 600,000 essentially. Yeah. Increase on one camera. Now if we multiply that out of a guy has 15 or 20, right? Yeah. Again, you're being multiple places. That's the thing that I've noticed too, with these guys that are killers, right? Yeah. They find either the area with the most big bucks, the most killable buck.
and because of the live, like you're getting this information real time, you can capitalize on that, that, that detail. And also like those guys are now getting a second lease when they only used to have one. Yeah. Those guys now have a farm. They also hunt out state now. They maybe throw a few cams on the [00:34:00] public.
You're displacing hunters cuz guys are getting kicked off leases. Guys with cash are now buying a second or third farm. Because you've taken that obstacle of time out of
the equation. Yep. And now just become about money and big antlers. And so they're, all they're doing is buying up more ground, more leases, displacing more hunters.
And so one could actually argue that this technology is only benefiting people with like disposable incomes to buy land and or leases. in, in a way. You could almost argue that. Yeah.
So not everybody can afford to go buy like even a 20, 20 acre spot.
the rich guy who, who in the past was like, I'm not gonna buy a second farm.
I, I'm, I already got my one or two farms. I've got, or my farm and my lease. I can't physically be actively scouting those places. It does mean no good to have a third farm. Now, because of the time efficiency he bought one, my I have a friend who's an outfitter. , [00:35:00] he has fired his part-time help this this year because he's I've won.
I don't need 'em. Yeah. He's charging more because of his efficiency increase. And he's I'm not gonna lie, it's cell cam driven. Yeah. And then he bought 50 acres on the road that came for sale this year. He's dude, I fired my part-time help, like my cash flow It was
Yeah. And that money then goes to be reinvested into cell cams and data packages, which in turn gets more deer, which in turn gets more customers, which in turn displaces people who can't afford outfitters or leases. This is a, there's no data that actually says this is what's happening, but it doesn't take a rocket science to figure some of this out.
Okay. Yeah. And so I just, and okay we can agree, me and you can agree that there is no, there is a difference between a regular trail camera and a cell cam, right? Yeah. There's a big, now is there [00:36:00] a difference between an instant picture and the ability to go onto a live feed anytime you want?
I would say there. there is, right? Tr even a one minute transmission time, you're, you can presume some things , but especially if you could live, tap like a daisy chain of cameras. If hypothetically, in the future, in the future we're gonna have 10 of these along the way of our, to our stand site.
It's not that far in the future because we have the, a cutback link system that is currently Daisy is a daisy chain trail camera, and then we have the live feed and other cameras. It's only a matter of time before you're gonna be able to go onto the app and select what trail camera in that daisy chain you want to show live.
And it will transmit through the main hub and send it out. So that's on its way. If not here already. And and so I look at it like this, like being, it's the data that. [00:37:00] causes a hundred to make a decision on whether to go out that night or not. So an instant picture, my exodus cameras take less than one minute.
From the time that it takes a picture to, the time it comes to my phone is less than one minute. And that's in shitty coverage, right? , I would say one, two bar type coverage. My moultrie is the ex, my other cell cam, I have a Moultrie. It does the exact same thing. It's under, it is under one minute because I've gotten pictures before that I'm on my phone sending a text to my wife.
I get a ping that there's a picture on my cell cam. I check it and it's the exact same time on the picture that it is on my cell phone. Yeah. It's under one minute. And so yes, a deer can travel a lot of ground in one minute, but the data on a live feed in, in my opinion, it's the exact same thing.
You live feed. Yeah. If, and that is, if something is within triggering range [00:38:00] of the trail camera, now you step outside of the triggering range. And like you said, being able to pivot or joystick some kind of device where you can rotate the trail camera and you can look in a field or a food plot, you can see if there's deer in there.
Switch it to thermal mode. Yep. Yep. That's coming. Yep. Man, that's crazy. And so now think about
it. That's coming, right? Yeah. Like you put 'em high in the tree by fall, the leaf litters off. Yep.
Like that. Yep. And okay. And so then now with this live feed, you're able to see. past the triggering range of the trail camera.
It's essentially a security camera in the woods. And we've, yeah, we already talked about that. And in my opinion then that is, And this is where I kind of transition into what is fair chase. Sure. So let me ask you, I'm gonna ask you first, what is your opinion of Fair Chase? [00:39:00] What or what would you consider the definition of Fair Chase?
Yeah, I think Fair Chase has it, that is a deep term. , especially like in, in hunting.
Hunting is a sport. It is a heritage. It is a primitive lifestyle in a way. The fair chase to me is you gotta look at it maybe like on a percent increase, the price should be able to get to way, it, it might be the individual encounter, it may be the species as a whole in terms of game laws, right?
. But it's yeah. Does the hunter have an improper like advantage? The percentage to execute is too high now that a game law needs to be adjusted or tweaked or come up with Yeah. To accommodate for. In this case, a lot of times we're talking about technology.
Yeah. Okay. And this is where I will begin my rant.
dude, every single product that we have from the [00:40:00] time an Arrowhead was invented, now granted Indians and Neanderthals and whatever whatever homo sapiens were doing. They had to get that to survive, right? We don't necessarily need to do that to survive, but every predator has evolved throughout the history of predators to become camouflaged, to become stealth.
Everything about a mountain lion is evolved to make it more efficient, to kill its prey, okay? And if we're going to, if we're going to a predator prey type scenario, everything that we're doing falls in line with evolution in, in, in my opinion. Now, when someone starts bitching to me about cell cams, right?
And oh God, it's, tradition and shit like that, here's what I say, your grunt call is meant to deceive a whitetail. [00:41:00] Your camo is meant to deceive a whitetail and give you pro a proper advantage. Getting off of the ground in a tree stand where there's no natural predators gives you advantage.
Scent control gives you an advantage. Ground blinds give you an advantage. Compound bows over traditional archery gives you an advantage. Fair. If you're gonna be talking about fair chase and you wanna start throwing in the conversation of the improper, the, IM improper advantage over the prey.
Any type of gun that shoots over a hundred yards is not fair. Chase then because you're, you shoot a deer at 200 yards away even further, they have, they, they don't even hear the bullet being shot before they're dead. And like this whole term fair chase, I feel was made up by some guy who was [00:42:00] pissed at another guy because he had some kind of unfair advantage over this other.
So what we're doing here is we're comparing hunters to hunters, right? And so here we go again with, this is where I start to get pissed off is where hunters now, instead of becoming this brotherhood, we're talking shit on each other, right? Oh, you're a cell cam guy, you're a pussy, you're a Sitka guy versus first light o f you.
Oh, you like Matthews Bowes? You're a pussy. Like all this bullshit. It just like, and I get to see it because I'm in the industry of sorts, and I know that makes me sound like a douche bag, but I get to see it all the time where it, this industry is going away from this community. The hunting industry and the hunting community.
Are two completely different things. Okay. We have a group of people who love hunting and stuff like that, but then we have the hunting industry, which main, which their main focus is to make money. So the [00:43:00] people who are coming out with these trail cameras that do the fair chase, they don't think about this kind of stuff.
All they, yeah. They're trying to make a buck. Yeah. All they see is revenue for their company. And so when when a camel company comes out and says, Hey man, we have this quietest, and our camel pattern deceives the deer's eyes cuz science says so whatever. Hey man, they like, like where does fair chase come into play?
Like that topic though, is so far removed because back in the day, people like, I don't think it was until Vietnam that people started wearing, or it was either Vietnam or World War ii. I can't remember. No one was wearing camo up until that, right? Yeah. It was soldiers. From my understanding, it was soldiers coming back from war that started hunting in their fatigues.
, and then something started out of that. Yeah. Anyway the point that I'm trying to make here is that there is no definition of Fair Chase, a Bo Sure. Boon and Crockett has come out and said, is it any animal [00:44:00] killed with a cell camm within X number? It's
like electronic transmitted device that is involved in Pop Young or Bo Crockett.
They're like, ah, that's, that doesn't qualify.
But who the hell is gonna tell that? Who's gonna, who's gonna be like, Hey I want to come score this deer. All right, let's talk about it. Did you have a cell cam on this property? Did you get a picture of it one hour before? And the person's gonna be like, no.
Oh, good enough for us. Yeah.
That's a, I. You you still find bait piles when they're outlawed at the game, at the state level,
right? There's, but there's always gonna be people, there's who abuse laws, who break laws, who abuse technology, who like, trust me, there's guys out there using drones to find deer right now.
Oh yeah. They're zooming in. They're trying to find the big buck, like the big money. And I'm here to tell you that cell cams are an ad. Here's my advantage. They are an advantage. Should they be illegal? I don't know. I don't know if they should be illegal. I don't know [00:45:00] if I look at myself before I had trail cameras, period.
And what I knew then back. . And what I knew when I started using, I knew that there's bigger deer in the area, so I started passing smaller deer, so in hopes of getting bigger deer. And sure enough, as I started using more trail cameras, I started shooting bigger deer. And more mature deer, because ultimately that's what I wanted.
And so for me like I'm a hypocrite too, because that's exactly why I use 'em, is to shoot big mature bucks, right? Yeah. To find them, to locate 'em and shoot 'em. So what's the difference between that and a cell cam? It's the time it takes it's the possibility of using that right now.
Information to creep out your back door over the hill and smoke, smoke a deer.
So I also think it's the undetected, right? You put them in areas that are intrusive. That [00:46:00] but again, Dan with the, I'm not and the 24 hour kill bothers me a little bit, but also the fact that you can string a bunch of these in the woods, put 'em on a, put 'em on scrapes, right?
You have a
net. I've got, you have a net. Basically,
You cast that net, right? Yeah. And like even if you're not hunting in early October and you're like, dude, I'm gonna start my vacation October 25th. And you see the rain cold front coming, that comes in late October. It's okay, cell cam 32 has had four bucks hitting in it that I would like to shoot.
I'm going there. Yeah. It's n you got no detailed maybe 12, 24 hours prior, but like over the course of October, you just noticed that one has four shooters that are beebo in and. . Yeah. Trail cam over here on, on your other farm has only one. Yeah. And it's that is so powerful that you can be everywhere.
At one time. I'm not y i, I think we're overlooking not just the outside of 24 hour advantage that Yeah. That they
cause but also to, to [00:47:00] piggyback on what you're saying, where to be versus where not to be, right? Yes. And so throughout the years of being in a tree stand, an observing deer movement through the terrain, I can tell you that I can look at a farm and I can t I can tell you where I need to be.
But if you put a trail camera out there, a cell cam out there and it's not firing, there's no way in hell I'm gonna probably go to over and sit in that, on that ridge or on that trail crossing or whatever it may be. Again. Yeah. And
yeah. And people will say trail cams, miss stuff.
And they do but do the math here. How many bucks a year do you trail, Kim? Whatever that number is, like good bucks. For your measurement, it might be over one 40 for me, it's okay, how many hundred, a hundred plus inch bucks do I, okay, I got that many occurrences. You know how many I see driving roads and actually in the field hunting in, during the hunting months. I'm not talking summer bean fields in July, dude, it's, [00:48:00] I trail cam probably 30 times the number of quality bucks I, that I see from tree stand and even roads in the dark. Come on you can say trail cams missed things and whatever, but okay.
Yeah. You know how many shooter bucks I see during a fall,
maybe two. Yeah. Yeah. They're, and I, they're not picking up every moment of that deer, but yeah. What trail cameras have allowed me to do Is find core areas. So I can go, hey, up on this dot on a map, I have a picture of 'em on this dot on a map.
I have a picture of 'em on this dot on a map. I have a picture of 'em on this dot. I draw lines to all those. And you find core areas, right? Yeah. You take that and then you say, okay, where's the best terrain feature within that core area you set up in there? You put in time, you find your access route, you're going to have an encounter.
If you're smart about it with that deer at in, in my, if you have the ability to hunt a lot.
The guys that are a little bit more dialed. Yeah. It's a very significant a advantage. Like you [00:49:00] said, you get tr you get a picture of a big buck and now you start scouting and you find big tracks you're like, oh, it could be him.
I killed a deer. I trail cam the year prior. I went in there and I started finding better revs. I'm like, I think he's back. Yeah. I shot him that night. Yeah, that's a trail cam pick one. It was January and I killed him in October. But it, that was such a piece to that puzzle.
Like the con, yeah. Yeah.
Dude I don't even know if I've formulated a full opinion on it of , whether I'm forward or against it, because I haven't had the opportunity to use it, like I said, the way we're discussing here , I know guys who have, they didn't seem too torn up about it.
Yeah. How do you tell a guy there's this technology out there, how do you tell a guy that what he's doing is wrong? You know what I mean? How do you tell this guy who's probably just like us guys, we know some of our friends, they're using the, oh, my favorite hunters use cell cams.
Yeah. And I'm not even talking about just using [00:50:00] cell cams. I'm talking about using the information from a live feed. They're like, people are going to use that and it is going to get, companies are going to get that information back. They're gonna market it, and other guys are gonna go, I want that.
I want that. I want that kind of information. I want that big buck. My life's stressful as shit. I love hunting. I want to get out there and shoot the big buck. And so what we have here is this personal preference of what you think hunting is. What I think hunting is what Joe blow over here.
The future, the thinks hunting is right. And ultimately it's going to change because I can tell you right now, hunting has changed not only as a, a sport or a hobby, whatever you, however you wanna look at it, both on a sport, hobby level, industry level than it did 10 years ago than it did 10 years before that than it did 10 years before that.
And you cannot stop this. You cannot stop this. And until there [00:51:00] is this is no joke. People are someday, in my opinion, like what's the next step from a live feed being able to hunt a deer from your couch. You're you are in, in, they're, you're on your couch, you're on your phone.
There's a bullet in a, there's a bullet in a trail camera or mounted to a tree. It's too cold to hunt. You're over a food plot. Boom. Push a button. Fire boom. It goes off. Yeah.
We might g p s dardo before that day, that might be Oh yeah. The stepping stone, but like these trail cams, have this little blow done feature. Boom. I've got a GPS coordinate. That's the other thing too, is. , Dan Rewind, 10 years ago, if I said, Hey, let's come to Ohio, let's hunt together. Hey, I've got coordinates to bucks on this hillside, and then this buck over here was there two weeks ago, you'd look at me and be like, we're gonna hunt gps coordinated deer.
Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't seem right? But now that's where we are on via the cell
camp, right? And so now we have this fair chase. [00:52:00] Oh yes. Now we have, what I'm getting at is now we have this fair this fair chase term becoming more blurry and more blurry. And meanwhile, the high fence guys are just like, ha.
Because they've been shit on for so many years by the fair chase community and how that's not really hunting, that's livestock, and that's whatever, however you wanna say it. This is becoming closer to that, right? . The only difference is, it is increasing the odds.
Of killing an animal. Yeah. And so what we have is these high, like high fence, there's pretty good odds you're gonna kill a deer, in a high fence over a feeder. Yeah. I don't know what the odds are. I'm guessing it's close to a hundred. But you get now. But now the odds are now going up for us and they're going up for us.
This, this Fair chase team and team fair chase. And so we're doing like every, the direction is going to like at [00:53:00] pretty soon. It's just gonna be video game. Video, a video game. That's really all it is that almost right now you still have to go out and draw back the bow. And I'm a fan of the pur.
The chess match. I don't like things in life that were too eea that are too easy for me. I just, I'm not that guy. I don't like, trust me, if there's a, I've hunted a rut that was 14 days long. I think it was maybe longer than that. Maybe f 17 days. And I sh I hunted every single day, morning and night, tearing up, setting down, moving for 17 days in a row, shot my buck on the 17th day best, best hunt of your life.
Oh, it was an awesome experience. It did. It, but there's times that it sucked. The next year, three sits morning. No, it was afternoon, morning. Saw the deer, made a move that night. Shot him. All right, so three, basically, let's just say two days. And so those are welcome [00:54:00] every now and then, but whoever is out there listening to this, you are missing so much.
Knowledge by taking a shortcut like this in my opinion, you're t you're, if you're going to just throw trail cameras up and especially if you're a new hunter, and oh dude, hunting is easy. Now I have a farm. I could go hunt. I have cell phone reception. I can go put this out here.
You're missing something. You're missing you're missing understanding deer how they move, where they move, how they operate, where they bed, things like that. And so this is like people, I think it's an important conversation. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think more people need to have it.
I just don't understand I don't think it's going to be I think they're gonna, it's gonna be legal. My, in my opinion ,
but I see more and more states banning, especially on the western front. Yeah. Banning either trail camps, cell cams in general, like Montana's banning, Yeah. [00:55:00] Banning cell cams.
So I don't think, it's not fathomable right for them to get in front of it at this point when you start to see these things. And that's why I like the fact that Mark posted that the other day. Yeah. And me and you are recording a podcast here be, and I had this really internal debate of, I don't wanna be a shit talker online, but dude, I really believe what I'm talking about here.
Yeah. Because my son's gonna hopefully hunt one day and I hope we are in a fucking creek looking at deer tracks. Hell yeah. And not swiping on a fucking iPad. Yep. And
that's real. That's real Fucking love you, man. . That's right, dude. Dude. And that's the emotion that you will not get from.
From a tablet or a device or some kind of d device. There's no connection with nature. This way. You're removing nature from the equation. And dude, I'm on like I feel you. Like I feel exactly what you're talking about. You got kids. Yeah. You're introducing 'em. Yep. Absolutely.
Absolutely. [00:56:00] And so I just can't and I mentioned the word dirty and muddy waters and things like that. I just see it continuing to go towards this. We're already in big buck mode right now. Trust me, I like big bucks. Don't get me wrong. No. Yeah. But the whoing out of the natural resource and not giving back to it is really what bothers me.
And all these people are taking big deer for granted, but they're not doing anything else about it. Yeah. I could sit here and go a thousand different directions at this point of where to go. And it really is gonna come down to personal per personal preference. I understand people who are supportive of this type of technology.
I'm understanding of people who oppose this type of technology. You brought up out west banning trail cameras. Yeah. And
And I think like Missouri, you're, they've taken 'em away from some of the public lands. Yeah. Because trying to keep maybe [00:57:00] somewhat of an equal playing field.
Yep. And also states a couple years ago drones were legal. Yep. And they're pretty much outlawed at this point.
So here's the, here's what really ruined the Western states, from my understanding, any place there was a water, like out in the desert, right? For these desert mule deer or these I guess you wanna call it low desert or high desert elk herds. Any place there was a cattle tank on public land or yeah, I think it was public land probably.
access at that point. Yeah. And so there was 15 trail cameras over top of one water source, and it was multiple outfitters all trying to, get pictures of this, these one deer.
And then here you have all these conflicts come of it because some guys come out and they're like I don't like this trail camera. Be in here, smash, or steal it, and things like that. And it just be it became dirty, right? [00:58:00] Again, the purity of the love of hunting left that.
Because it again, became about money. And I understand banning a trail camera in that scenario. But now here we are, people who are using trail cameras in a I you used Missouri on certain chunks of public. I don't know exactly what the rule is. Yeah. But hypothetically, some guy who's been using trail cameras for years, regular trail cameras, goes out there and is okay, you cannot use your trail camera during the hunting season now.
I've been doing it for 15 years now. 20 years now. What why can't I do this anymore? Because some trail cameras, so now we got other people being punished for tech, the technology that they're not using.
Sure. And people will talk private public on this. Oh, you can't tell somebody what to do on their private land.
Dude, that's every game law ever invented, right? Yeah. States own the resource, like they say your season dates, your bag limits, your methods of choice your cartridges. So [00:59:00] yeah. I don't know, Dan a and obviously if hunting continues that way Sure. But I think we have an opportunity just stick 'em in the nfl, right?
That was a technological advancement that came into the league and they said, you know what? That takes the art of the catch out of it. Yeah. And we're gonna remove this. I think if you look at some sports I know there's been technology in golf that they said, oh wait a minute, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna pull the reins back just because that is essentially changing the sport.
And while hunting is not exactly like a ball sport, I think a lot of people can relate to
that, right? Yep. Absolutely. There is an opponent, there's like an opponent perspective of it, and, and sure our opponent is the deer in a sense, and it's unfair. But everything we've ever done, is unfair to try to kill these things.
And that's the point that I was trying to make earlier of, like camo and ozonic and, things that I use on a regular basis. It's like I, I don't under guns, period. Guns, yeah.
But yeah [01:00:00] but at least firearms, right? There's a clear advantage there, but you gotta a like here in Ohio we got a weak season and an extra weekend in the Taylor half of the season when the animals aren't as frisky, if you will, it's not as killable
as a good word.
And that's exactly why gun seasons are only one week short, two weeks long. It's because, yeah, the efficiency of the rifle is higher than a compound. Period. Yeah. I don't really know where to go from here because like I, in, in parts of this, I agree with it in parts of it. Yeah. I disagree with if someone came out tomorrow and said, cell cams are banned in Iowa, I don't think I may go, oh, that sucks, but I wouldn't give a shit.
Okay. Yeah. As long as I can still use some trail cameras, like my regular trail cameras, I'm okay with that. But if someone came out and said, Hey, you can't, you cannot use cell cams anymore during the hunting season, I would be like, all right. Whatever. No, [01:01:00] no big. Yeah, no big deal. I'll go back to what I was doing three years ago, before I had cell cams.
Yeah. . So there's that. Yeah I'm just, yeah, I think that's, yeah. I'm just waiting for someone smarter than me. To come out and say, this is fair Chase. Because right now Fair chase is just two words. There's no definition of what it actually means. Yeah. So any final thoughts or closing arguments?
We talked about, about a lot of things. The, so Cam might have invented the term Daylighted had a Oh, daylighted, yeah. Now, yeah. At one point last year it was like four or five of the main podcasts. All the guests on, they're telling their buck stories. They use the term daylighted.
Yeah. And I was like, I know what that means. Yeah. , when cell cams were first getting introduced, that was a term and that was a way to for somebody to be like, yeah, I got 'em on cell cam. Cuz there was a little cringe right when this technology [01:02:00] first started happening. Yep.
Yeah, that's, I think I've said my piece. . Yeah. And honestly too is if we don't talk about this, like it, hunting is just gonna be a morph type thing. And I think, like you said, it's always evolving, always changing. Yes. And at some point I think we as sportsmen who hold onto this passion that we so love are gonna have to say maybe we need to pump the brakes on this innovation.
Yeah. That is too much where the odds are getting tipped and that th this thing that we love Yeah. Is gonna morph into something that maybe resembles a video game. Yeah. Cuz I don't really play video games. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie.
Yeah. I'll. I'll throw down some Mario Kart every once in a while with my kids and then I straight up destroy 'em cuz I'm really good at it.
Yeah. . But I know exactly what you're talking about. And and I think this is one of those open-ended conversations that we as sportsmen need to [01:03:00] have not only from just like a community standpoint, but as an ethical standpoint as well. It's, we need, we just need to be communicating with each other more and putting and quit the divide between pro this anti that.
And we're all under the same roof. We all understand that there are threats to the, our hunting community and our hunting way alive. And what we have to do is say, do we want to keep this? Because I can definitely see somebody going, Hey I'm Pete over here. These deer are getting s stocked 24 hours a day in the woods because of cell cams.
And we want to end cell cams, right? And we want to end hunting. And the, there's any type of advantage. We give these crazy assholes. They're gonna try and take it. And so if we're playing video games on an iPad, and next thing you know, we're shooting deer, they're gonna, they're gonna come up with, I don't know, they're gonna come up with crazy reasons on why to ban our way of life.
And so that is what it is. That's my [01:04:00] 2 cents, Mr. Hort. And I really appreciate you taking time outta your day. I loved you can't see this but I saw your boy come in while you were talking and you had to do the mic shut off and the point, the finger at the door get outta here, . Yeah. I've had to do that so many times.
Yeah. So I know where you're at.
Yeah, that's, yeah.
Alright man, I appreciate your time. Have a good one. All
right, Dan, thanks again.
I hope, aw shit, just dumped coffee all over my all over my computer, but that's what I do best. That's not the first time I've done that, and it won't be.
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