Marriage Counseling For The Serious Outdoorsman

Show Notes

On this episode of the Nine Finger Chronicles, Dan has a very interesting conversation with a fellow Iowan and Marriage Counselor, Jason Haglund.  Jason and Dan break down buzzwords like resentment, love, communication, and empathy as it pertains to being married. As most of us know being married is not easy, so Jason give his insight in to how to be better at not only being married but being better at all of your relationships. We have to remember that hunting can be a very selfish hobby, and if we let get out of control, it can have a huge negative impact on the rest of our life. But, through proper communication with your friends and family everyone can get want they want... within reason. This is a straight "shoot from the hip" episode that will bring awesome insight for those who may be struggling with balancing hunting and being married.  


Marriage Counseling For The Serious Outdoorsman

N.F.C. - Marriage Counselor

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Dan Johnson: Ladiesand gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of The Nine Finger Chronicles [00:01:00] podcast and I'm trying to not laugh. It'san, it's almost a nervous laugh on this episode, but today I'm gonna be talkingwith a gentleman. His name is Jason Halan, and he is a, Marriage counselor. Andso today I'm there.

Dan Johnson: It's notany deer hunting talk. It's about, we talk about relationships, we talk aboutthings to do, things to not do. And it's just, I really don't even know how todescribe. Th this episode, it is me asking questions to a marriage counselorabout how hunters should treat their wives during the season and after theseason.

Dan Johnson: And thena lot of general relationship questions as well. And so it's a bizarre episode.I think you guys are really gonna enjoy it. It's something different. I that'swhat you get when you get with me. You're not getting [00:02:00]the, five ways to kill a buck. During the rut type of conversation every singleepisode.

Dan Johnson: Nowwe're throwing some curve balls here lately now that the season is ended andthat's what you're getting today. So we're talking with a marriage counselor.Also, be sure this week you check out the Hunting Gear podcast, and that isgoing to be launched on the nine finger or the hunting gear podcast feed.

Dan Johnson: Makesure you listen to that because I'm gonna recap my ata products, some of thebest products that I've seen. What else, what, what else is going on? Man,we're just full blown wrestling at this point at the Johnson household. All ofmy kids are getting excited. They're getting better, they're starting tounderstand it, which means they're being more successful out on the mat.

Dan Johnson: And oncethey can click the mindset. And their body, if once that can click together, Ithink it's gonna be, it's gonna start being more fun for them as they'll start,being able to control [00:03:00] theiropponents a little bit more. So we got that. And man, it's just crazy. Likebaseball's already started, basketball is still a thing, wrestling, dance.

Dan Johnson: Andwe're on the go all day every day, and I'm just not getting enough sleep and Ineed more sleep. So there's that commercials tethered. I just, I ran into allthe guys at tethered this weekend. Dude, these guys are doing some really coolthings and they have some more products. One of the saddles is like a, it'sit's like a saddle with training wheels on it almost.

Dan Johnson: It's, ithas shoulder straps on it. You can strap it up. It's it's something that I candefinitely see myself wearing. But a lot of cool things coming from the fromtethered, including their climbing sticks. Dude, I picked up the carbon one andit is freaking light. It's like it, there's nothing in your hand, and it'slegit.

Dan Johnson: So gocheck out tethered for [00:04:00] saddles,platforms climbing climbing sticks, and all your saddle hunting accessories.Next on the list. Got the opportunity at the ACA show to catch up with my manman Fred from was archery. Dude I love catching up with him and the rest of theWASP crew, some really good people and I'm really excited to, to continue thepartnership with them.

Dan Johnson: Man,when you talk to innovation is great, a lot of the BO companies, in order tostay competitive, they need to put out a new product every year. Now, in thelast couple years, the WASP has put out some new broadheads, but they don't putout a new Broadhead every single year.

Dan Johnson: Why?Because the stuff that they already have is amazing. And that's why I continueto go back to the same heads every single year. The Jackhammer and the BossFour Blade. But if you're looking to make a switch to a brand where a majorityof their heads are still made in the usa, you need to check [00:05:00] out wasp Man.

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Dan Johnson: It's, itreally is a one stop shop, and it is one of the most popular and mostaffordable hunting apps currently on the market. go to thewebsite. Go check it out. And if you've stepped away from it, maybe you letyour subscription lapse get back on it [00:06:00]and just be present all the time.

Dan Johnson: Andit's, I swear to God, it translates into the woods. Last and not least I got init just before I recorded this, just got off of a meeting with Vortex Optics.They have some really cool things coming down the pipe. This upcoming thisupcoming year there, there's gonna be some more apparel stuff coming.

Dan Johnson: There'sgonna be, let's see, they just launched a new tripod for their spotting scopes.Dude, it's badass. I'm not gonna lie. It's badass. I didn't get the opportunityto use it this year because I was in I was hunting already on my trip by thetime I. Nonetheless, I played around with it. It's badass.

Dan Johnson: Theyalso have a couple new rifle scopes, I believe, coming out this year. And Ithink one of them's already out, but they have some new stuff coming out. Sojust go to vortex optics and browse binoculars, spotting scopes, range finders,red dots, anything optics, they have it, it's, they're just an amazing company.

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Dan Johnson: That'sall I'm gonna say. Go do your research now. We're done with the commercials.Let's get into today's podcast where I talk with a marriage counselor. Enjoy.Three, two, one. Alright. On the phone with me today, Mr. Jason Halan. Jason,how we doing, man?

Jason Haglund:Fantastic.

Dan Johnson: How areyou doing? Good, man. Doing good. You are a fellow Iowan, correct?

Jason Haglund: I amborn and raised.

Dan Johnson: Whatpart of the state?

Jason Haglund:Central is right around the Ames area.

Dan Johnson: Oh,okay. Nice. That is When it comes to farmland, right? Everybody [00:08:00] talks about how Iowa is this big buckstate. Lots of deer, all that stuff happens south of Interstate 80, south ofDes Moines Central Southeast Iowa.

Dan Johnson: But oncewe start getting into northern Iowa, we start talking about what Iowa is mostknown for, and that's the farm ground and like the agriculture and things likethat. So you are in smack dab of the bread basket of Iowa. .

Jason Haglund: I haveI'm a fifth generation farmer, so I get to see this from a different, coupledifferent perspectives is, yeah.

Jason Haglund: I havefarmland, actually it backs right up against the Des Moines River, and I cantell you the size of some of the bucks along the Des Moines River Valley thereare very impressive. Yeah. We have our share of deer running through our fieldsevery

Dan Johnson: day. Ican tell you that. Yeah, I believe that.

Dan Johnson: Ibelieve that. And that's the, that's what makes Iowa so great is that I had afriend once say, throw a dart at the state of Iowa on a map, and there's gonnabe big deer [00:09:00] living in, in that area.Yeah. Iowa is known for big deer just all over the place. So fifth generationfarming row crop, or do you guys get into the cattle and pigs at.

Jason Haglund: No atthis point in our lives, it's just row crops. Yeah. I'm very eclectic in, inwhat I do, so that's my hobby. My hobby is farming quite a few acres right now.So that's just what I do as my, my, my way of

Dan Johnson: vegging,if you will. There you go. There you go. It's, it would be the opposite of meif I said, I, Hey, I wanna give farming a try.

Dan Johnson: Therewould be a whole bunch of stuff that I would have to learn. But you wereanointed into it through, through, the generations of your grandfather and yourfather and family practice. . Absolutely.

Jason Haglund: Andit, it wasn't necessarily that I never thought I would be a farmer.

Jason Haglund: I, Ispent five years in Pennsylvania went to grad school. I've been an executivemost of my career. It's only been about six years ago. I returned to takingover the kind of the family tradition, if you will, and [00:10:00] getting back to the land. Okay. Which is, which

Dan Johnson: has beenreally great.

Dan Johnson: That'sawesome. Okay you're also a counselor.

Jason Haglund: I amI'm a by trade, I'm a substitute counselor. I have my graduate degree incounseling psychology managed mental health centers and worked with people and,and relationship counseling my entire career. So I, I've worked with people.

Jason Haglund: I'vebeen a crisis counselor. Done a lot of work with fema, so I've spent my wholelife around working with people as they go through emotions. Yeah. Andexperience

Dan Johnson:different emotions. Yeah. Man, that is where I wish I had a little version ofyou sitting on my shoulder every day, because emotions is the buzzword here formy life.

Dan Johnson:Recently. I have all these kids growing up. They they show their emotions andthey don't know how to con control their emotions, which frustrates me, thusme, causing me not to control my emotions. . Life can be one hell of a [00:11:00] snowball rolling downhill.

Jason Haglund: It, itabsolutely can. And I love the word and I always tell people, can you reallyever control your emotions?

Jason Haglund:Exactly. I'm a big advocate of, we're all managing. There's really very littlewe have control about in life in general. We have to find ways to manage. Andsometimes things are really hard to manage through. The more we clinging onsome, sometimes we just can't grasp that much.

Jason Haglund: And I,not to call you out on that, it makes me think about, what are we doing? Are wemanaging? Are we controlling?

Dan Johnson: Yeah,that's a good point. That's a good point. And thus is why you are on heretoday. Because I had a guy reach out to me and he goes, okay, Dan, you talkabout your wife and your kids all the time on this podcast, and you.

Dan Johnson: You talkabout how sometimes they frustrate you or sometimes you get mad and vice versaand your kids get mad at you or your wife get mad at you. I think it would becool to have a marriage counselor come on this [00:12:00]podcast and just talk about marriage where they fail, where they succeed, bumpsin the road, how to overcome those types of things.

Dan Johnson:Especially when we are talking about hunting, because there hunting is what Ihave always called this selfish sport in a way where there's a lot of time. Youcan take it as easy as you want it, just be a weekend warrior or you can getvery into it like I am and you can make it your job.

Dan Johnson: You canspend a lot of time thinking about deer and deer hunting and strategy and. Itbecomes a selfish activity in a way because it's only you that is benefit fromit. From it. First off, I think I'm just going to kick this off with some veryvague questions. High level, and you can take it however you want to take it.

Dan Johnson: When itcomes to marriage and from your past experience, where do most marriages, not [00:13:00] necessarily the point of failure, but thebeginning of maybe some bad habits or bad experiences. . Sure.

Jason Haglund: And,I'm gonna approach this as relationships in general, I think of, being a hunteror being a farmer or a rancher we didn't talk much about it, but, a lot of mybackground's been in succession and how do we help everyone to get around thetable and communicate?

Jason Haglund: And itcomes down to communication, right? Yeah. Where do things start to go wrong?Where do we start to stray? It's when we start stopping or we start to fail atour communication, right? And so it doesn't matter what type of relationshipyou're in, whether it's with your spouse or with your business partner it'swhen we stop communicating, it's when we're not sharing our needs, our wishes,our hopes.

Jason Haglund: It'swhen we're not, communicating what our needs are and how we can go aboutmeeting those needs. So for me it comes down to communication.

Dan Johnson: Yeah.Yeah. And so when we talk about. I don't know any type of hobby or sport or,the guys [00:14:00] going out with golfing.This is one thing that I've learned over the years in that men and women, ,this sounds basic, but they're, they are different in almost every category.

Dan Johnson: How theyexpress themselves to how they manage problems, to how they plan for thefuture. All almost everything about the men and women are different, I wouldjust say on average. And so when it comes to communication, what is, what'syour experience with when you have people who are complete opposite sides ofthe spectrum, trying to communicate with one.

Jason Haglund: That'sone of the great advantages of therapy. Or, ha having a relationship coach,right? It's to help to interpret because there's different communicationstyles. You're absolutely right. The communication style between men and womenis very different.

Jason Haglund: But atthe end of the day, some of the ends are very similar. Yeah. What people aretrying to do what they're trying to get to or get away from are very similar.It's just [00:15:00] the way we all go about itcan be very different. And as I think about. what, how do we get over thatbarrier?

Jason Haglund: It'ssometimes we need an interpreter, and sometimes that's really hard. Andprobably when I think about, especially those of us in rural and remote areasthe stigma of asking for help can be really hard. And so that's one of thebiggest barriers sometimes is our pride. Because who wants to ask for helpright?

Jason Haglund: Whenthey're struggling in a relationship? Do you like to ask for help? No, I donot. , you like to talk about it, right? No. No, exactly. So the first thing wehave to do is find a way to be vulnerable and open and honest and I know a lotof guys, we can't even say the V word, right?

Jason Haglund: Yeah.But part of vulnerability is being able to open ourselves up and learnsomething about ourselves as we start to learn about our ability tocommunicate. And figure out where we're going and what we need. And I don'tknow if I really think that, hunting or golfing, for me, I think about thoseactivities and a lot of people engage in them [00:16:00]and it's a great for self-care, and we don't always think about it in thoseways.

Jason Haglund: Butwhen I think about what people use those times for it's camaraderie withfriends, it's self-care. It's to rejuvenate. We all need activities thatrejuve. Yeah. And build us back up. So I really think we should be embracingand leaning into some of these activities. I'll tell you some of the folks Iknow that hunt, that go out and, spend six hours or some, sometimes what, sixhours up in the stand.

Jason Haglund: I'mlike, that's not my idea of rejuvenation. Yeah. I'll just be honest with you.But for some folks that's what they need to do and they are good for two, twoweeks or a month because that was their time to go and be on their own andengage in an activity they love to do. Yeah. And I think if other, if everyoneknew how important that was, don't you think more people would support that?

Jason Haglund: Ohheck yeah. And support them and take in that time, but they've gotta communicatewhat they get from it. And I think that's where sometimes these things go awryis cuz there's not good communication. It feels [00:17:00]like someone's not being present or they're running away from something whenreally they just need some time for themselves.

Dan Johnson: And soyou described that very I'm gonna try to pronounce the word here. I think I'mgonna say it wrong eloquently. Okay. You said that perfectly. Now, men are notnecessarily known on average for expressing themselves like what you just didhere. So when a man gets frustrated, he gets into the, the gorilla smash thingsget, damn mad type, type of scenario.

Dan Johnson: So whenit comes to communication and being vulnerable for let's just say men, becausemy demographic on this podcast is like 97% men. How would you recommend takingsteps to be more communicative to your wife?

Jason Haglund: Ithink the first step is well, a, do self-analysis. Sometimes we have to reflectand sometimes it's painful as guys to sit back and go what was my [00:18:00] part in that argument the other night?

Jason Haglund: Orwhat could I have said differently that maybe wouldn't have incited quite theresponse that I got? Because I've been known to needle my wife from time totime. Yep. I've been known now and then, to be a little irritable and be like Iknow what to say. That's really probably just gonna end up being hurtful.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.And I don't always do the best job myself of reeling myself in and thinkingmaybe I shouldn't just say anything at all. Yeah. And I've been married for,going on 26 years. So I'm not learning very quickly. and. But I think it'simportant that, we think about how, what is our role in all of this?

Jason Haglund: And weall play a role in our different relationships, in into making thoserelationships really healthy or not so healthy sometimes. And when we thinkabout communication, it doesn't mean, we're gonna do journal entries every day,right? I have some people tell me I'm not gonna write in a journal.

Jason Haglund: I'mnot asking you to write in a journal. . But, do you convey the importance thatsome of these activities have in your self-care? Yeah. If we think about, womendo a great [00:19:00] job of articulating theirfeelings and emotions and sharing in general what they do and how it helpsthem.

Jason Haglund:Because generally winland or just more verbal it's just a one of thedifferences. Yeah. And it's, goes back to the old joke that, I can spend aweekend with all my friends. We don't have to say anything. It's just aboutbeing there.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.And being present. Yeah. And that connection that we build through not sharinganything, sometimes it's just been present with each other. But it, we have totalk about how those difference make us, those differences make us who we. ,right? And so that's where the communication piece comes in is how can we sharethat?

Jason Haglund: Idon't understand what you do with your friends when you go out with them, butthis is what I need to do and this is why this weekend trip that we're planningto go to the cabin is so important to us. Because I just need that torejuvenate myself. And it's okay to say we need to do things for ourselves.

Jason Haglund: And Ithink sometimes in our society, we feel like we have to do stuff for otherpeople. And if you have kids, you sometimes you got all those activities goingon [00:20:00] and there's no time left for you.And partly that happens even more so in women. Women give up more of their timeand they are the worst at self-care.

Jason Haglund: In some ways guys are, he. because we just say, I'm going to do this on my own,and we walk away. Yeah. And that actually helps us be a little healthier andresilient emotionally. Now that's at the detriment of some of thoserelationships, right? And so sometimes it's helping your spouse or loved one toto say, Hey, I'm gonna do this for me.

Jason Haglund: Youneed to go do something for you. Yeah. Yeah. And then you make it equal. And soyou're sending them off to say I need time for me, but you need time for youtoo. You need to let go of some of these other things that you think areimportant, and I want you to go do something for you that can get you a longways and maybe better understanding some of those needs your spouse may need.

Jason Haglund: Andthey may reciprocate that back of better understanding, acknowledging what youneed to

Dan Johnson: do aswell. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I wanna talk about the word this, and I'm gonnaopen [00:21:00] up a little bit here on thepodcast and talk a little bit about some things that. Have happened in mypersonal relationship and that is the word resentment, okay?

Dan Johnson: , I hadthis job where I was similar to my wife. I was able to get out of that job andnow I'm pretty much living my. Like I have my dream job. I own my own business.I get to talk about hunting and fishing all day long, and I get to, when it'shunting season, I don't have to take off work.

Dan Johnson: I don'thave to plan with a boss. I'm the boss. I get to go on these hunting trips. Theonly, real planning and preparation I have to do from a scheduling standpointis with my wife and It's not so bad anymore because I feel like I've done agood job at communicating with her the benefits of what I do and being a,basically a stay-at-home dad who runs a business as well.

Dan Johnson: Butthere's this resentment and the word that's the buzzword I wanna talk to youabout is this resentment. And my wife has said that to me and is that she hasresented [00:22:00] me for being able to go outand do these things that make me happy. Meanwhile, she's going and doing thingsthat don't necessarily make her happy.

Dan Johnson: And thenwhen I go on my trips every year, she stays back. She watches the kids and andhas to do all of the single parenting type jobs, the, we joke and call it thefall widow in the hunting community. And then I get to go out, I go to SouthDakota for eight days, come back.

Dan Johnson: But it,but I make my money that way too, so she resents me for that. Give me your takeon resentment and if it is as poisonous as they say it is.

Jason Haglund: Sure.And when you talk about resentment, I hear other words that pop up, likestress, that, when you're gone, it adds a level of stress to the familydynamic.

Jason Haglund: It, itcreates imbalances in the relationship. And so part of your [00:23:00] work and that's how, you're also helpingto care for the family, financially to provide. And there I can see that envy,that, that jealousy.

Jason Haglund: ,because a lot of us go through our careers. And we're just at the grind. Andit's it's very empowering. I, I can relate to you when you say that of when youfind a place where you can just find your groove and you're doing what you loveand you happen to get paid for it Yeah.

Jason Haglund: Reallywell in the process. That's really great. And if you're not in a place whereyou can do that, it's hard to watch somebody do that. Especially if it's aspouse or a loved one. Yeah. And so there's a normal part of resentment andjealousy that can seep through at those times because sometimes it's reallyhard to be truly happy for someone else.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.Because there's always a part of you that's why can't I do that? Or whycouldn't I come up with this idea 10 years ago? And then, be cashing in on it.. Sometimes those are real challenges, and so I think about, resentment andjealousy. I think about all of the other layers to that.

Jason Haglund: It'skinda like an onion, right? Once you start peeling [00:24:00]it, there's just another layer and there's another layer. And so it's, I canunderstand where some of that resentment comes from. I, there came a point, Itravel a lot for the work that I do. I don't send my wife pictures of the greatfood I'm eating anymore.

Jason Haglund: Right.or share with her .

Dan Johnson: That'sfunny.

Jason Haglund: Thatat another brewery and they have a great, they have a great sour. She mightlike I don't like 'em, because she's here I am at home, and you're travelingfor work, but you're in a different restaurant every day.

Jason Haglund: Sothere's that balancing act we all have to do. Relationships are give and take.Relationships are, and all great things all the time. We all sacrifice to be inrelationships. Yeah. And so we have to be willing to give and the take andhopefully that I'll balance this out, but there's gonna be times where peoplefeel resentment and that's normal.

Jason Haglund: , weshould feel things during relationships. And so hopefully there's some stuffyou do the other times of the year. Yeah. That makes up for some of that.

Dan Johnson: And thatis what the other, [00:25:00] dang near eightmonths of the year is about. It is, I always say brownie points, I'm buildingthat bridge every single year just to burn it down in November, October andNovember, and then start building it up. So that way the goal is they know howmuch. My kids, take 'em on trips, participate in their life, do the projectsaround the house and things like that.

Dan Johnson: And the,with the goal of building up those brownie points so that it's not it's not aspainful when I leave for a week at a time. .

Jason Haglund: Yeah.And it's important that you acknowledge that it is painful for your wife duringthose times. That can be miserable. Managing kids and all the other things thatcome along with that.

Jason Haglund: Now Iprefer to say you're building equity. There you go. It sounds a little betterthan brownie points. Yeah. But you're building equity in all those other timesof the year because you know there's gonna be some times Yeah. That you'regonna be less available, less accessible. Yeah. , but that's a balance andthat's a conversation you have to have with your wife, right?

Jason Haglund: Yeah.You [00:26:00] guys have to come to some mutualunderstandings and maybe early on you weren't communicating as much about theimportance, of some of these things that you have to go to. And I think that'sthe challenge is when we get lulled into our work, especially when it's ourwork, right?

Jason Haglund:Sometimes we just have our nose to the grindstone. We're just going along,doing the same thing every. . I'll be honest with you the last three years,what we've seen in a lot of folks is just that, that ongoing anxiety, thechronic stress, we hear this word burnout a lot, right?

Jason Haglund: We allcan, we can all have feelings of chronic stress and burnout. And that's notjust in our jobs that can, that can impair our ability to function our hobbiestoo. It can keep us from doing lots of different things that we do. And wealways have to be thinking about how are we managing ourselves?

Jason Haglund: Andwhen people are under stress and start to shut down, they stop communicating.Yeah. And that makes all these other problems so much worse. It brings thingsto a head that don't need to because we just forget to do some of those basicthings we need to do.

Dan Johnson: Yeah.That's a great point.

Dan Johnson: [00:27:00] So I, I gotta tell you a little bit aboutMy la before my wife, I had this relationship and then I was in a somewhatserious relationship, and then I fell in love with hunting and wanted to do itmore and more. She did not like that, and I'm not gonna say it was one of themain reasons she decided to leave, but she left nonetheless, right?

Dan Johnson: So itwas probably part of it. And so it be, this hunting then became this hugepassion for me. And it's I identify as a bow hunter now. If you're gonna giveme a title, that's the title I give myself because I do it all the time. And Ilove everything. All my decision making is around that.

Dan Johnson: So Imade it a point when I started dating my wife that, listen man, I'm gonna dothis. And so I let her know right off the bat that. When October came, Novembercame I'm telling you, I'm gonna go do these things. So I'm warning you now, ifI don't want you to get [00:28:00] mad at me inOctober or November when I'm gone every weekend because I'm hunting and wedon't have this social life that we have in July and August type ofconversation.

Dan Johnson: So whatkinda recommendations would you give to a guy or gal who finds some kind ofpassion project or finds an activity that takes up a lot of time that's brandnew, maybe while they're in a relationship or that something that is just like,boom, I love doing this. I want to do it more. It makes me happy.

Jason Haglund: That'sa fantastic question. I just had a flashback of when I started farming more,and so yeah. My, my wife still tells me, it's September, october. I'm like I'mgonna be sitting in a combine. We, we can't be doing anything else. Yeah.Because I've gotta work full-time.

Jason Haglund: Igotta travel, and then when I do get home, I'm gonna be sitting in a combineall night. . Because when you got a combine, you got a combine, right? Nodifferent than when it's in season. You gotta be where you gotta be. And I it,to me it really boils down to if you're in a [00:29:00]good, healthy relationship, then you're gonna be able to find those separateactivities or those activities together that you want to engage in.

Jason Haglund: Andyou don't have to do everything together. But you don't have to do everythingapart either. And so to me, it's all not an all or nothing. conversation. Yeah.It's, I'm gonna be bow hunting and I'm still gonna do the things we need to do.I can tell you that, I've had to cut a vacation short because I had a goodfriend get married.

Jason Haglund: And soI didn't have a problem doing that, but I was able to do both. And so I thinkit's really important. It's not an either or conversation. It's a how can I dothis and meet everyone else's needs at the same time? Yeah. I think thedifficulty we have is we all only have so much capacity, and we don't alwaystalk about this because we always all wanna do more, but we're all limited inour capacity to function across all of our relationships.

Jason Haglund:There's only so much of us to go around. And so if we're giving too much overhere, then we're not gonna have enough. . And [00:30:00]so we have to figure out how do we take care of ourselves to be able to beeverywhere we need to be. And if we're outta balance, we're not gonna beeverywhere we need to be.

Jason Haglund: And soI think the bigger thing is individually, we have to decide how are we gonnause the limited capacity we have. Yeah. And that can be really hard sometimes.

Dan Johnson: Yeah.Yeah. That's that's always a struggle Every time a year I can, I notice alittle bit. I the longer that we get married, the less it becomes.

Dan Johnson: So Iwould say in five years it probably won't even be an issue anymore. My kids aregonna be, at that point, older, they can wipe their, as of right now, they canwipe their butts, they can wash their hands, they can do the right, the basicstuff now. So it's not as bad as it used to be.

Dan Johnson: Butmaybe for somebody getting into like who's younger with younger kids or newlymarried, there was always this time where, right before the hunting seasonstarted. They flipped it to the calendar. The calendar had the [00:31:00] hunt schedule on it, maybe in two weeks orthree weeks. Uhhuh, . And so then I would, not so much anymore, but I wouldnotice a attitude change or a personality change.

Dan Johnson: And thenit was just like, like this boy sauteing of frustrations just keep gettinghigher until eventually there was a fight. And so how would you set about likemanaging those types of expectations? .

Jason Haglund: Ialways would suggest, talking about that stress as it begins to build.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.What you're seeing was a precursor signs of the stress that was coming , right?The feeling overwhelmed po potentially the not knowing how to manage some ofthose things. And what can you do to help to manage the experience when you'regone?

Jason Haglund: Whatcan you do to set things up for success in the household? And I, I can tell youwhat my family did a lot of throughout the course of the pandemic is we got alot of food to go. Yeah. Wrong or indifferent. W was [00:32:00]it because we couldn't cook?

Jason Haglund: I loveto cook, right? I cook all the time. My wife doesn't love to cook. I pr I loveto cook more than my wife wants to cook, to be honest with you. I love being inthe kitchen and doing stuff, but sometimes. After a long day, and dealing withthe kids and everything else, I just don't wanna make another decision.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.I, we all run into decision fatigue and so sometimes when you're the only onethere and you have to make all the decisions for that week, that can be reallyoverwhelming. And so people go to this dark place of, I just can't make anymore decisions, even to make a decision about supper can be paralyzing.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.If someone's under a lot of stress. So even just giving permission and not thatyour wife needs permission from you, but just saying, Hey, maybe we could justset up a meal thing for the next couple of weeks so you don't have to worryabout that. Or you can do, there's lots of different things that you can do toshow support and help to take some stress.

Jason Haglund: off ofother people's plates because sometimes that, that, that kind of, that your,the, those feelings you, that were getting [00:33:00]sent to you. Yeah. Sometimes that was just the stress building up potentially.And so I always like to encourage people to look beyond the behavior. What'sthe purpose behind the behavior? What's really happening? Yeah. What's actuallygoing on there. And sometimes people don't know. People experiencing it don'talways recognize that's stress building up. They don't always recognize. Thatthe calendar in two weeks is gonna be that, but they're already starting tofeel the stress to that.

Jason Haglund:Sometimes that's out of their awareness. And so sometimes it's really importantwe ground ourselves and have those direct

Dan Johnson:conversations. Yeah. The next buzzword I kind of wanna touch base on isempathy. And I think this is hard for men. And this is just my personalopinion, it's hard for men to empathize with their wife or their girlfriendbecause they don't think a wife or a girlfriend, right?

Dan Johnson: It'shard to compare yourself to something that you're not. And like any advice forguys out there who are trying to understand where [00:34:00]their wife or girlfriend is coming from? I, if they do decide to communicatewith you, but then in the end going, dude, I have no idea what you're talkingabout. I do not understand that.

Jason Haglund: It, Ialmost wanted to say how good are we at listening? , because listening has tocome before empathy. Okay. And so there's a difference between hearing andlistening. And when we think about listening, do we really listen? Sometimes Orare we so in our heads thinking about what we're gonna say next that we totallydon't even hear?

Jason Haglund: That'sa great. what was being shared with us. Yeah. And empathy is hard, right?Because you're really trying to understand what someone's experience, in their skin,what that must be like. Yeah. But sometimes I think we just need to hear whereare they coming from, and if we're just, if we're willing to listen and hearwhere they're coming from, then it can help us to have some perspective andthen be able to say, oh, I didn't think about it like that.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.Because you may not agree, it may seem [00:35:00]ridiculous to you, but you probably just need to understand where they'recoming from. Yeah. And that would probably take you a long ways in healing someof these wounds if you're going back and forth with someone.

Dan Johnson: Yeah. I,and w what, when a argument or a, I don't know, is it ever okay to say, I don'tcare.

Jason Haglund: If youdon't care but you know how often, if it's an argument with someone you're in arelationship with then there's some investment. And so I think, the, it reallycomes down to what's your level of investment in that relationship. Yeah. Ifyou really don't care, then you're not that invested in the relationship, thenyou might wanna reevaluate the relationship.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.And so I, I think that sometimes people say they don't care cuz it's easy tosay but it may not be accurate representing Yeah. Where the person's comingfrom. It goes back to our limited vocabulary about emotions. I used to workwith with teenagers a lot and what's the first primary emotion every teenagerwill [00:36:00] tell you no matter what'shappened to them.

Jason Haglund: It'salways anger. Yeah. I'm angry. And so it's never anger. It's always, I'm hurt,I'm rejected, all these other things. And I think we have to get beyond ourlimited vocabulary and really start to feel that emotion. It's really easy toget angry. Yeah. It's really hard to actually identify what the real feelingand emotion is behind that.

Dan Johnson: Yeah.And you mentioned stress earlier. And so like me and my wife had have, ourrelationship was built on, or our family is built on me and my wife'srelationship. That's the foundation. Of every, everything that, that we havegoing for us right now. And so there's time I've noticed where.

Dan Johnson: Thestress comes from our life, meaning we are running three kids around who are [00:37:00] going to activities, and we have todecide, oh, this is broken. We gotta get it fixed. We have to do this. And italmost becomes chaotic. How important is it to put, maybe even children asidefor a moment and then go back to what the foundation of that relationship wasor is

Jason Haglund: AAbsolutely.

Jason Haglund:Relationships are work, right? Yeah. Relationships just don't happen. You justdon't marry somebody and be like this is good. We can cruise for the next 50years. You've gotta nurture your relationship. Things change over time. Yeah.Your kids are young now.

Jason Haglund:They're gonna grow up as a whole different deal when they're in high school.Yeah. And I've got a kid in college now, it's a whole different deal. Andprobably about a decade ago, my wife and I started scheduling date nights.Yeah. Especially when our kids were younger because we needed to bring thatfocus back on just the two of us, because otherwise it would get lost in allthe other chaos.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.I think you described it very well, that chaos. And so how do you care andnurture [00:38:00] for that relationship?Because if that relationship's important to you, you can't take it for granted.And so oftentimes people struggle when they take the relationships for grantedand then they forget what the really are the important things in thatrelationship.

Jason Haglund: AndIt's work. You have to set time aside, you have to schedule we have schedulingmeetings. We, for a while in my household, we actually had to sit down with acalendar and all, all of our devices and be like, okay, what's their schedulefor the next six months?

Jason Haglund: Whenare we doing this? And we still do that all the band concerts. If it's not onmy schedule then I'm out of town. I'm like, oh, I missed a band concert. Andthen my wife's what are you doing? What's your priority? And so we've gottakeep that at the top, right?

Jason Haglund: Wegotta keep that in focus so that we can juggle everything we need to juggle,and at which point things are too much, then we have to start reeling back.Yeah. If I'm gone too much, there comes a point like, maybe, I'm gonna stayhome for the next three weeks. Yeah. I'll push some of these things so that Ican do that.

Jason Haglund: And soit's finding that balance and [00:39:00]everyone's gotta be communicating and firing all cylinders to find thatbalance. Because as soon as somebody shuts down, Then we start to get outtabalance again.

Dan Johnson: Yeah.People change all the time. All right. Whether, like the 25 year old version ofme is way completely different of a person than the 42 year old version of me.

Dan Johnson: Allright. That is now, as as people change, by the laws of marriage and we'reexpected to stay, like people are expected to stay with each other and changeas well. How would you recommend Cause, cause if a person changes, then it'salmost like the other person has to change as well to accommodate that.

Dan Johnson: How doyou recommend that scenario playing?

Jason Haglund: So Ilike what you're saying. So we are all always evolving, right? And yeah, I hopethe version of me today is it's a very different version of, [00:40:00] when I was in college, right? . So I thinkfor the most part, that's a good thing. But, we're all constantly changing andevolving.

Jason Haglund: Theworld is constantly changing and evolving around us as well. So we'reconstantly shifting and moving and so I think it's important as we shift andmove and our relationships shift and move our goals and life shift and movethat we regularly, I talk about being in balance and, maybe I should talk moreabout that.

Jason Haglund: That'show we manage all of the things in our world and all the things that areimportant to us and all the relationships that we have. And those things changeover time. Probably the. I don't I probably have less friends as I get older,like when I think of really close friends because I've really honed in on therelationships that I want to have.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.It's evolved and changed over the course of time. As opposed to having lots ofconnections, I've probably reduced that a little bit over the years justbecause I've become a little more focused in who I am, who I want to be, andwho I wanna hang around with.[00:41:00] That'snatural and normal.

Jason Haglund: Andhow do we embrace those changes as they come along? And how do we acknowledgeand recognize those in that friendship group and our relationships and ourspouses and others around us as we do that? It happens within families as well.Families move and evolve and change your relationships change with siblings andcousins and parents as you age as well.

Jason Haglund: And soall of those changes are happening, right? And so how aware are we of thosechanges? And as, as we adapt of noticing how others adapt as

Dan Johnson: well.Yeah. So we, there, there is a point where in any relationship and I think youmentioned it you almost have to evaluate yourself as w and I'll, I'm gonna justcome forward here and say I have a flaw.

Dan Johnson: And thatflaw may be judging people a little bit too much or thinking, may, maybejudging my wife a little bit. [00:42:00] And Ican tell that sometimes that affects her mood and it's not a good thing to, inmy opinion, it's not a good thing to, to judge a person. How do you go aboutlike I, I found a flaw.

Dan Johnson: How do Iwork on it when it's almost like certain thing, certain characteristics of aperson. Are ingrained in them so deep. How is it to, how would you recommend metrying to change myself for the. .

Jason Haglund: FirstI'm impressed. You only have one flaw. . I have numerous, no.

Dan Johnson: Numerousflaws. No, that's more than that.

Dan Johnson: That'sjust the big one on top of the i,

Jason Haglund: theheap . I, the first step is we have to be aware of our shortcomings. Yeah. Wehave to be aware of those things that, that we know are just part of us. Yeah.And so being non-judgmental, it's a challenge for everybody. I teach someclasses where we spend a whole section of time on, how do we listennon-judgmentally, [00:43:00] how do we approachthings in a non-judgmental way so we can be more open to learning other people'sperceptions and how they move forward.

Jason Haglund: Thefirst step is us being aware, right? Yeah. Because at least if we know our,our, where kind of some of our stuff is then that could help us when we getinto those interactions where, when those. Things start to come out that we canbe aware of. Oh yeah, that's on me. , and I think that the first step isgetting open and honest with ourselves.

Jason Haglund: And sountil we can be honest with ourselves about some of those areas I'm judgmental aboutsome things too, right? That's part of the human condition. We all have our ownjudgmental areas that we have our own belief system sometimes and thatsometimes just rooted in what we believe.

Jason Haglund: It hasnothing to do with anything other than we are raised that way. We believe thatway. It should just be this way. And sometimes it's hard for us to understandother's viewpoints because of that. But I think, it starts with us that ifwe're open to understanding there, there might be some different ways to [00:44:00] look at things, then that's gonna help usto evolve and grow a little healthier as individuals.

Jason Haglund: Andthat's really gonna help us in those relationships. As those grow and adapt andchange moving forward

Dan Johnson: as well.Yeah. We've talked a little bit about the emotions, the feelings, the, talkingthe change that is, that, that are those types of examples, but physically wechange as well.

Dan Johnson: And howhave you seen, or does physical change, age, slowing down how does that impactin a marriage, in a relationship and, from, everything from just waking up inthe morning to, I don't know, maybe sex.

Jason Haglund: Thisis heading too close to home because, I'm on the home stretch into 50 rightnow.

Jason Haglund: Andit's a little harder to get out and run right now for me. And some of thoseactivities that I've been doing my whole life, that's part of us, we're allgonna get old, right? [00:45:00] Yeah. Andwe're all gonna have to face some of those things, as we think about, I have toget new contacts and I don't need readers yet though.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.So at least I've got that going for me. But, we're all gonna be there and sohow are we making the most of what we have? And I think it's about. , c creatingthat space that, the older I get I'm starting to eat a little healthier. I'mstarting to, recognize that well, I might have to cut down on the IPAs now andthen.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.There, there's some things that we start to think about. But, I think also insome ways I'm probably a better version of me as I get older and I'm probablyhealthier in some ways when I was younger, and it's just the way I do thingsare differently. Sometimes I think a little smarter as opposed to throwing myback into it like I used to. Now I'd be like, now I'm a little more we canratchet strap this and do it this way and it's not going to, take any energyfrom me to get the same thing done. I think, , we're all aging together.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.Some of us are gonna age better than [00:46:00]others. And I think that's just part , it's part of what we have to do tomanage our expectations as we get older. I don't know. Yeah, that's a reallygood question.

Dan Johnson: Is therewhen it comes to l let's say my wife is doing something or has a habit, or, Idon't know has a tick.

Dan Johnson: I don'tknow. This is just an example and I don't like it all. Or if a guy is listeningout there, his wife is doing something that just frustrates him and messes himup. Is there a better approach? Is there a rip the bandaid off or beat aroundthe bush slowly until she picks up the hint type?

Dan Johnson: I don't,this just popped in my head and I'm sure that's a two-way street, right? If awoman's listening to this and your husband's doing something that is pissingyou off what's the best approach to communicate with them?

Jason Haglund:Yelling, stop. It never works for me, . So I don't [00:47:00]know.

Jason Haglund: Icould tell you what doesn't work and Yeah. And yelling, stop. It doesn't work.I I wouldn't make it. I was gonna make a comparison. I won't do that. Thinkabout how could you invite someone to do something d. and let them know theother way really bothers you.

Jason Haglund: Sooffer solutions. Sometimes we get so into the negative that we forget about howdo we help bring people along, right? And so if there's something that's reallyannoying you, then a communicate, but then also give other alternatives, right?Yeah. Because it may be your issue, right?

Jason Haglund: Ifeverything bothers you, then it doesn't matter what that person does, right?You're still gonna be annoyed. So is that about the other person or is thatreally

Dan Johnson: justabout you? Because one could argue, my wife has a problem. This is notnecessarily my wife but a guy out there, his wife has a problem with him huntingtoo much.

Dan Johnson: And hegoes that's not my problem. That's your problem. Is that the right, is that theright way to handle that?[00:48:00] ?

Jason Haglund: I,because it depends on what your relationship's I don't think it would be verypleasant at home to handle it that way. . I think, again, it comes down to doeshe really describe the importance of his hunting?

Jason Haglund: Yeah.And what is it really impacting? And so again, it's about, it's not either or,right? It's not about, having a relationship or have, or going hunting. I, andmaybe in some cases it is, right? There may be some relationships. It is eitheror. Yeah. But I think for the most part it's about h how can I have h how canwe do both, right?

Jason Haglund: Howcan I meet the expectations set for me at home and be able to go do this greatactivity that brings me joy and rejuven. And refills my cup so I can go homeand be a better husband. We talked about capacity. If that one weekend ofhunting rejuvenates you and makes you a better husband, a better dad, and abetter employee, then everyone would be on board of helping to make sure youhave that two days to go out and go hunting, right?

Jason Haglund: Yeah.If everyone understands that's the importance [00:49:00]and you come back rejuvenated and you can get more done and have more capacityfor all of the other relationships in your life why not? Why wouldn't everyonesupport that? But if we're not communicating that and no one understands thatand you're saying, oh, I'm outta here.

Jason Haglund: you'reall on your own. Good luck. Yeah. That comes off a lot differently and a lotmore negatively.

Dan Johnson: Yeah. Soin, in this episode we've talked a lot about these things of, basically there'sa little argument here, how to communicate, how to, long story short it's, likeyou said about communication.

Dan Johnson: Whendoes it become time to have that interpreter or that therapist or a third partycome into play to, I don't know, be the ref of some sort? .

Jason Haglund:Absolutely. I think you know when it's, when you're, when it's impacting yourability to sleep when you're not taking care of yourself. When everything'sjust so outta sorts and you're feeling down and blue and [00:50:00] angry all of the time, that's not healthy.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.And think for you, when are you at a place when it's so unhealthy and it'sgoing on for weeks and weeks at a time and it's impacting your ability tofunction and their ability to function and everyone's just miserable and crankyall of the time. Then. You do need to get some help, but it's okay to get helpbecause who wants to live like that for an extended period of time?

Jason Haglund: Who wantsto be in that place where your energy is just being zapped? And so I, I alwaysencourage folks if you feel like things are just completely outta whack, whatdoesn't hurt to go and talk to a third party to go call a therapist or call arelationship coach or Right. Talk to somebody at your church or, a spiritualleader who can help you in those areas.

Jason Haglund:There's lots of options. The one option may lead you to another option, maylead you to another option. But those are all available and good places

Dan Johnson: tostart. Yeah. And so when it comes time and let's talk a little bit aboutspecifics. And the reason I want to ask about specifics is, so maybe someonewho's listening can [00:51:00] identify thosespecifics and maybe prevent it from going to the next step.

Dan Johnson: Andhelping them work it out at home. When someone, when a couple sits down infront of you, what are the, from what you've gathered all these years, what arethe main topics of confrontation?

Jason Haglund: Again,thinking in, in, generally what caused couples to butt up against each otherand it's tho it can be anything, right?

Jason Haglund: It'sthose stressors that boil to the top that haven't been settled that everyone'snot in agreement on. And so it, it's not a one size fits all. It's any, anytimesomeone disagrees with someone else and then digs. Because there isn't a spaceto step back and have true understanding between both parties.

Jason Haglund: And soI kinda like you said, referee earlier, right? Yeah. That, that, the game oflife, sometimes we all need a referee, right? Because sometimes you get used tobreaking a rule here or [00:52:00] there andkeep going. We all need to be put back in check sometimes. Yeah. We allsometimes just need someone to say, Hey, did you really mean that? And whatwere you really trying to say? Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna, and when you take thatpause, you're able to do that. Yeah.

Dan Johnson: I'mgonna double down on that last question. Okay. Because I, yeah. I can Googlereasons for divorce and then it will give me a list of reasons, right?

Dan Johnson: Yep. Ismoney or fi finances a big topic Is sex, a big topic Is I don't know, oneperson showing f i, I don't know. Not paying enough attention. A big problem,like those types of things?

Jason Haglund: It'salways expectations and unmet needs. Yeah. So it could be money, sex, you nameit.

Jason Haglund: It'sabout unmet needs and or the ex or the perception of unmet needs. Yeah. So aswe think about what our expectations and relationships are and what therealities of relationships are, [00:53:00]right? And so the expectation of where we see saw ourselves wanting to be in 10years, and then the reality of where we find ourselves Yeah.

Jason Haglund: Today.And so can you reconcile that? Or are you at a place where you can reconcilethat with a person you won't be in a relationship with? That's really what itcomes down to. Gotcha. Are my needs being met or do I feel my needs are beingmet? And all of those are reasons why people's needs aren't

Dan Johnson: met.

Dan Johnson: Yeah, Igotcha. All right. And I hate to say this, I am a product of a divorced family.My, my mom and dad got divorced when I was in third grade, and then my mom gotdivorced again from a guy when I was in I don. , it's like in high school.Okay. And so the, I've been through divorce.

Dan Johnson: It's nota fun thing to go through. I personally have not been in divorce, but I've seenmy friends with kids go through divorces as well. When is divorce the bestoption?

Jason Haglund: [00:54:00] I think when there's irreconcilabledifferences that your needs aren't going to be met, or you start to recognizethat you have a different focus and goal, then maybe your partner does.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.Then sometimes going a separate direction is a really healthy, freeing thing todo. And I think part of it is coming to terms with, what. , the two of us justdon't belong together right now, and that's okay. Part of relationships ismaking the choice to not be in a relationship.

Jason Haglund: Yeah.And so I think that's part of it, right? That happens with friendships all thetime. That we may be friends with someone and then realize that maybe thisisn't a friendship. Yeah. And then we choose not to be in a friendship withthat person anymore. It's no different in relationships or in marriages that,that sometimes things are just, our expectations are so different that theycan't be reconciled and that's okay.

Jason Haglund:Sometimes that's okay. It's better to recognize that and know that. and then moveon. [00:55:00] Yeah. And that can be done in avery supportive, compassion, empathetic way, right? That everyone wins. Yeah.It's sometimes when people just get stuck in that rut and they spend years andyears of their lives miserable.

Jason Haglund: Andfor what, it's how do we take back and own who we are, what we do in therelationships that


Dan Johnson: part of?Yeah. So I want to end on a, in a end, on a positive note here. And we've beentalking about buzzwords and the end one is love because I I, like I said, I'vebeen through a couple divorces and I've seen relationships that got crazy.

Dan Johnson: Maybedidn't necessarily end in divorce, but they got crazy and just dirty. And thenit, the end. Out of that came this beautiful relationship with, and they justloved each other hardcore, and it was like they needed [00:56:00]it. I call it volcano, dad at home, when my patients run thin, I explode. Andthen after the explosion, may, maybe it's fear, which necessarily isn't a goodthing, but most of the time it ends in my kids' understanding more.

Dan Johnson: And soyou have this big giant eruption, and then out of that comes peace andtranquility. Does that make sense? Like how does . I don't. Maybe you take overfrom here and guess what? I'm trying, trying to say.

Jason Haglund: Ithink what you're describing is that intensity. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Haglund: Andwhen you think about love, what is love? It's a deep, intense feeling forsomeone, something. You love it. You love them, you love your kids, right?That's an intensity, right? Yeah. And so you're describing the intensity ofyour feelings when something's important to you, right? And so can great thingscome from deep intensity?

Jason Haglund:Absolutely. Yeah. That's that deep love and affection that you'recommunicating. And so I think, it's harnessing that [00:57:00]intensity and using that, right? Because you don't ever wanna blow up like avolcano probably, right? That's not my goal. It's finding, it's not your goal,right?

Jason Haglund: It'snobody's goal, but finding a way to manage. Those feelings in a way so itdoesn't bottle up and explode. And so I think that's the theme as I think aboutall the things we talked about today is how do we find ways to find balance andmanage our emotions so we're not bottling them up, we're not hiding fromsomeone or something, but we're finding a way to communicate our emotions andget everybody on the same page so that we can all support each other

Dan Johnson: in allthe things that we like to do.

Dan Johnson: Yeah.And the focus here was on relationships. I asked a lot of questions from ahusband, wife type standpoint, but everything you covered today is frfriendships, mother and mothers and sons. Mothers and daughters. Like justpeople in general, relationships for people.

Dan Johnson: Anyfinal words or thoughts from you on best practices for[00:58:00]a happy marriage?

Jason Haglund: Wow.That's a loaded question. Yeah. If I've ever heard one . I think I I think allthe things we talked about today, but it's about providing space andunderstanding and that we are all evolving and changing. And, it is funny youtalk about, as as we get older, our hormones change.

Jason Haglund:There's so many physical changes as well as the emotional changes that occurwith human beings. And so to remember that relationships and marriages, theywill continually evolve. They're not stagnant. They're not just gonna stay inthe same place. It's always moving, and you have to be moving with it andwilling to make changes and adapt for your entire life, for that relationshipto continue to grow and be healthy. So I think that's my final takeaway is howare you. To grow with the relationship. Not just to be in a relationship, butto grow with the relationship.

Dan Johnson: Jason,man, I really appreciate you taking time outta your day to, to do this.

Dan Johnson: Thisthis is a complete curve [00:59:00] ball forwhat my listeners are in for. I really appreciate you doing this and talkingwith us. And I really do think there's gonna be some people who have some goodtakeaways from this.

Jason Haglund: Thankyou so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Dan Johnson: Andthere you have it. Ladies and gentlemen, if you feel inclined, please go toiTunes or wherever you download your podcast and leave a five star review. Thatjust helps me out. If you if you like listening to the podcast, man, I wouldreally appreciate it. Other than that huge shout out to tethered wasp,HuntStand vortex.

Dan Johnson: Don't forget 2% for conservation. And then last but not least, man be good to oneanother. Stay positive. Good vibes in, good vibes out. And we'll catch ya the next time. Enjoy.[01:00:00]

Show Transcript