The Perfect Rifle Setup

In this episode, Brian Krebs and Silas Morris discuss the topic of rifle calibers and bullets for hunting in different environments. They explore the idea of using the same rifle for both whitetail hunting in Wisconsin and elk hunting in the West. They emphasize the importance of shot placement and understanding the capabilities of your rifle. They also discuss the effectiveness of different bullet types and the need for two different bullets for different types of hunting. In this conversation, Silas and Brian discuss the importance of bullet speed and size in hunting different animals.

They explore the relationship between bullet velocity and animal size, and how faster bullets can lead to quicker kills. They also touch on the idea of using a single bullet for all hunting purposes and the benefits of sticking with one rifle and one load. The conversation also covers the significance of shot placement and the need for hunters to strive for ethical and humane kills. They conclude by discussing the importance of optics in hunting and the challenges of finding a scope that works well for both short-range and long-range hunting.

https://www.instagram.com/silas.outdoors/

Takeaways:

• Choosing the right rifle caliber and bullet for hunting depends on the specific hunting environment and target species.
• Shot placement is crucial for a clean and ethical kill, regardless of the caliber or bullet used.
• Understanding the capabilities and limitations of your rifle is important for making effective shots.
• Using the same rifle for both whitetail and elk hunting is possible, but it may require adjusting bullet selection for different hunting scenarios.
• Consider factors such as bullet weight, energy, and bullet construction when selecting ammunition for different hunting situations.
• Faster bullets can lead to quicker kills, especially for smaller animals like antelope.
• Bullet size and speed can influence the outcome of a hunt, but the size and toughness of the animal also play a role.
• Using a single bullet for all hunting purposes can simplify the process and eliminate the need for constant adjustments and re-sighting.
• Shot placement is crucial for ethical and humane kills, and hunters should strive to end the animal's suffering as quickly as possible.
• Choosing the right optics for hunting requires considering the specific hunting scenarios and balancing the need for short-range and long-range capabilities.

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Brian Krebs (00:01.308)

We'll rock and

All righty. All right, things look good.

Brian Krebs (00:10.987)

Welcome back to another Western rookie podcast brought to you by go hunt. We've got a really cool episode We have a listener actually wrote in with an awesome question So we got we got him on the pod today But before we kick this episode off if you're listening to this and you are you're getting value out of the Western rookie You know the whole mission of the podcast is to help more people hunt the West learn all the tips and tricks

If that's you or if you especially know somebody in your life that would also love to the West, please share the podcast with them. Let's help more people understand the gear, the point systems. We're getting a lot of questions on that. And we actually had two questions on point systems since the last podcast. So we're gonna kick this episode off. We've got Silas Morris on the pod today.

Silas wrote in with a super cool question, not the point system question. So we're going to cover both questions in today's podcast. But before we do that, how are you doing tonight,

Silas Morris (01:13.405)

I'm doing well. Thank you. Thank you for having

Brian Krebs (01:16.823)

Yeah, well, thanks for writing in. So you had a really good question. And I want to build a little suspense. And we're going to tease the listeners a little bit. And we're going to save your question for the meat of the podcast. We're going to come in with a little appetizer here. I've recently been a person that likes to order a side salad to come out first. And so we're going to start here with a little Caesar salad.

We've had two people write in and say, can you explain point systems? I get confused about the point systems. I don't know where do I start? Is there point systems that you recommend beginning with? It's a great topic. don't know, Silas, are you building points across the West in any states?

Silas Morris (01:57.372)

I have Montana, Wyoming, both of those are for elk. Montana's elk and deer, and then Wyoming's elk, deer, and antelope. And New Mexico as well, and then just Colorado, home

Brian Krebs (02:12.523)

Okay, so you just apply for New Mexico, like swing for the fences since they don't have a point system. Yeah, okay. All right, so you actually have what I would say is like the starter pack, right? Of points. And so what I mean by that is Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, I think is a great starter pack for anyone out there. And it also covers, basically covers the core.

Silas Morris (02:16.202)

Yeah.

Brian Krebs (02:37.665)

I would say of the non -resident elk hunting states, there's others for sure. We mentioned it, New Mexico, there's always Idaho, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, but some of these, Arizona, some of these other states, they're starting to be like next, like that's when you're really pursuing a long -term strategy. Wyoming, Montana, Colorado, so far can get you elk hunting every year. If you build points in those three states,

and you're open to doing over the counter Colorado as needed as you know available there's changes in laws around that. You should be able to elk on every year and so it also covers three drastically different point systems. And so that's what I think most people are like what are every it seems like the little research I do every point systems different I don't know do I need a point do I need a bonus point do I need preference point how many points do I need. So we'll start Colorado because it's the simplest point system.

that exists. Colorado straight preference point system, right Silas? So you build a point, have, you know, so many every year you don't draw a tag. can, you can apply for a point Colorado. have to apply in the beginning of the year during the normal application season, but the way they give out tags. So if there's, for example, there's one tag for a unit, both Silas and I are applying for it,

they're gonna give the tag to whoever has most points. So Silas has five points, I have four points, he's gonna get the tag and then when it gets to me there's none left so I don't get anything. And that's the same whether there's one or a hundred. In our true preference point system like Colorado, whoever has the most points, they start at the top and they say who's got the most points that applied for unit 900 and they'll give that one out and then they just go right down the list and somewhere they probably will run out. There's a couple units they don't but usually they run out.

And then, you know, if they run out in the three point bracket, that's usually called like a four point unit. Right. Or a three point, depending on how you call it. Right. That's true preference. So now we'll go to Wyoming. Wyoming is a technically a preference point system, but they throw in a couple of kickers. Wyoming, you build a point, they do the draw, but they take all of the tags and say there's a hundred tags for a unit Silas and I are putting in for.

Brian Krebs (04:56.355)

and we both, let's say, have two points, and we're putting in for a general elk tag. They'll take 25 % of those tags and they put it over here in a side pot and they will do a complete random draw. They don't even look at our points. Everyone just gets a random lottery number and they draw for those 25%. And when that's done, then they take the 75 % that are remaining and they do the standard preference point system. And anyone that already drew a tag in the random, you're

and they'll go right down the list just like Colorado. And so that's the little kicker. like lately, a General Elk tag, you need about four points in Wyoming to guarantee it. And so if Silas and I both have two points, he might draw, there's about a 14 % chance you'll draw on the random. So he might draw with two points and then I don't get anything with two points because I didn't draw on the random and I didn't have the four points it needs to draw the tag as a preference. So that's the Wyoming system. Montana.

most complicated one of the three. They have both. They have a preference point system and a bonus point system. So the preference point system, it acts just like there's a, there is a random allocation for zero point holders, which is kind of like Wyoming's random allocation. But then in Wyoming, everyone's included in the random draw in Montana, only zero point holders are included in the random draw. So if you built the point last year, you don't even get to participate in the random

The preference points are what draws your general tag, your harvest tag, your carcass tag. Those are your preference points. I think you can only have two or three. I can't remember what the limit is, but they don't let you build those forever because they're general tags. only take two to draw. Two is guaranteed. One is not. Zero is not. Kind of, it's kind of a goofy system, but then they have a bonus point system and that's if you want to draw a limited entry permit, which is a limited entry unit that

allows you to use your general tag in another special unit. You still have to draw your general, then you can move on to try to draw limited entry permit with your bonus points. you don't draw your general, you don't get to draw a permit. If you do draw your general, but you don't draw your permit, then you have the option to return your general tag. And then there's like a second round. It's very confusing, but that basically covers most bonus point systems. The only one that we haven't really covered is a

Brian Krebs (07:19.139)

preference point system or a true bonus point system. Usually bonus point systems are they'll take you the number of points you have and either square them or cube them. So if I have five that might go into the draws 125 lottery tickets and then they draw. it's kind of no one ever is guaranteed but no one's ever out of the race. And so Utah does that Montana does that for limited entry. North Dakota does that. I

There's a couple other states, but that's the core of elk hunting for non -resident Montana, Wyoming, Colorado. And that's how each of their point systems work. it's confusing. I get why people write in. I don't know if you had the same experience when you were learning Silas. I'm like, I don't know. I just buy them now and I'll figure out how to use them later.

Silas Morris (08:06.177)

Yeah, that's pretty much how it went. I just found myself wanting to get more elk hunting experiences and got into it and it was definitely a jumbled mess. And then through listening to your podcast, I want to say it was maybe, I don't know, six, seven months ago, I was like, man, maybe I should check out this go hunt thing, see what all the hype's about. And ever since getting go hunt, has just tenfold helped.

applying for different states, understanding what you can do, what you can't do. So I really do think that that makes it easier, but you have to pay attention. mean, know, almost every draw system you have to pay attention and it has been easier. When I was growing up, they sent us paper applications. if you chicken scratch for handwriting, you probably weren't getting a tag that year, you know. So it's a lot easier being able to do it online, but you have to know what

Brian Krebs (09:02.509)

You have to know what you're doing. have to know when the deadlines are. You have to know, like for example, Colorado, you have to buy your point as an app in the app season. So I think it's like April 1st or April 15th. We do a bonus episode every year. But Wyoming, you can buy your point in the fall. In Montana, you could buy your points in the fall. And so sometimes people get to the fall and they're like, I'm ready to buy all my points. It's like, no, you missed the deadline. Arizona, same way. So yeah, no, it is

It's a learning curve, man. They don't make it easy. I want the listeners to know I only had to pay Silas $100 to say all those nice things about Go Hunt, our title sponsor. No, it truly is. I I go out on a limb and say Go Hunt is probably on par with a quality pair of boots in terms of what can you spend your hard -earned money on to be more successful in the West. I mean, if you've got shit boots,

Silas Morris (09:41.875)

shame plug.

Brian Krebs (10:00.035)

Good luck and if you've got a little bit more money then get go hunt and then start looking at everything else You can do a lot with a book bag. You can do it like you don't need a mystery ranch pack You don't need a kafaru pack. You don't need the latest and greatest Christians in arms, you know breakdown rifle You use your grandpa's 270. It's gonna probably killed more elk than your new one ever will anyway But knowing where to be and being able to get yourself there, you know boots and go

It's crazy how valuable that

Silas Morris (10:31.07)

Yeah, I'd agree. mean, I think especially for kind of your platform of getting people into the Western side of things, so much more land, would say, as far as public land than the Midwest. When I go to Wisconsin, people are like, yeah, this is a big national forest here. I'm just like, I mean, it is big. Don't get me wrong. But just nothing compared to the vast amount of land that you can get into in the West.

Brian Krebs (10:44.629)

yeah.

Silas Morris (10:59.623)

I'm sure that can be very daunting for people. so yeah, think doing a good thing by trying to get people, you know, just some information. Like you said, getting Go Hunt is as good as a good pair of boots because, you know, if you don't know where you're going, it doesn't matter at all. You can have the Christiansen arms, you can have the Crispies, you can have the latest, greatest tent, and you're never gonna find much, you know. So opportunities.

Brian Krebs (11:21.867)

Yeah, yeah. You gotta know where to go and you gotta be able to get there. I mean, that's what it comes down to. And I love going. I love one of the things I really love, especially checking out new units, go. It's got layers of like summer range, winter range, all season range. And so it's like if I'm going to a unit and I don't know, it's like maybe it's like for perfect example, we're doing Wyoming Antelope this year, me and my wife, Abby, and it's a new unit. And I'm like, you know, this is an Antelope unit, but the whole unit isn't an

unit. Like I want to know where to focus and they've got these layers I can turn on. Well here's the summer range. I don't have to worry about the winter range. I mean we're not going to be in winter. So I can look at the summer range and the all season range and you can kind of see there's going to be like an overlay and you know the all season range and the summer range might be a little bit bigger than the all seasons maybe a subset but then you're like okay now I know where to focus. I know where to start. There might not be an antelope right there but at least I'm not way on the other side of the unit wasting time where they've never seen an antelope before. Right and so I love

about the mapping and you don't have to pay for two map services.

Silas Morris (12:24.039)

True, think that's a key component there. And for me, a lot of people will ask, hey, where did you archery hunt? I really want to do a rifle hunt. And I have to tell them, well, I don't know if that's going to play out for you. Where I'm bow hunting these elk and these deer is a lot higher elevation than your third season rifle hunt that you're trying to do. So I can't guarantee you they're going to be up there. I can tell you they're probably not. But you

So having that, like you said, you might be able to say, okay, if I'm hunting later season, then maybe this is an opportunity where I should start looking at some of the lower drainages, some of the stuff that's at a lower elevation. If I have to go high, then so be it. But focusing and knowing where the animals may be and historically have been, I think is a great key to success.

Brian Krebs (13:13.473)

Yeah. Yeah. So that being said, I want to get to your question and I want to spend that's I think the key part of this podcast will be kind of the topic that you introduced. And so you reached out, you sent us a message. And once again, we've mentioned it multiple times. You probably heard me say it. That's right. Maybe I will send a message, but feel free to reach out, folks, and ask questions like if you don't want to come on the podcast to answer

You don't have to. mean, I texted Silas the answer and then I said, Hey, by the way, can I share your question on the air? And I think we covered it, in a bonus episode, but it's a good topic. I think it's really relatable. And so the heart of your question was, Hey, I've got a rifle set up and I, you know, I'm a white tail hunter. I also want to Western hunt. I want to get into the, all these other things. Like, what do you think on, you know, do I need to switch into a different caliber? Is this caliber fine?

Do I need to switch bullets? I'm hunting like drastically different types of, you know, environments, habitats, species, states, I mean, everything. And so I think it's a good topic that I want to dive into more, but break it down for the listeners, like your, what you asked, like, you know, paint the picture for

Silas Morris (14:31.962)

Definitely. So mainly, growing up, I've killed elk and deer with the 270, but for the most part, I've used the same Remington .30 -06. And growing up in Colorado, I always shot anywhere from 170 to 200 grains out of it. And I seem to think that that was what would be perfect for elk hunting and deer hunting. And then I met my wife, started going out to Wisconsin where she's

And you know, there are some big body whitetail deer, but I started looking at most of it and thinking, man, I don't know if the higher grain bullets is the way to go, if I'm going to have to transition. And so maybe my question to you was, do you think I should do two rifles? Should I have a different setup for going to the Midwest versus my rifle setup for the West? Obviously mule deer, whitetail deer, and most of those same calibers, no matter where you're at, is probably going

It's when you start jumping up to some of the elk, moose, things like that, that maybe will throw a little bit of a wrench in there. So yeah, basically I just, I don't know if 179 grain Hornady ELDX is too much for whitetail hunting. When I used it, I didn't put it through both shoulders, but I mean, it definitely dropped him right where he stood. And that's what everybody wants, right? My main reason for switching

A better bullet is I grew up shooting Remington Corlocks. Big, big lead insert in there, but they were cheap, they were affordable. And when I was a kid, my dad was just like, we need to get you something that's not gonna break the bank, because you keep, you know. And so I just kept shooting those. But first white tail I killed in Wisconsin. Same thing, shot it and it bounced just off the front shoulder. A lot of it splintered through the heart.

found it in the rear right quarter, probably three or four big chunks of And kind as you got to in the podcast, like he said, you can find some of them, but you might not find all of it. And so that's what kind of worried me was, am I sending this to the processor? Am I grinding it up and ingesting lead? even if not, if I'm bouncing off a bone and not getting great penetration, how successful is that going to make me down the road?

Brian Krebs (16:54.187)

Yeah, yeah, you had a lot of good you got the question and a lot of great points and very relatable points. And I think another part of it was you were like, when I hunt in Wisconsin, like we're doing deer drives, and stand hunting. And you know, when we do a deer drive, it's usually quicker shots deer are moving. You know, obviously, if I can, if the deer stops, perfect, but I can't control that. And I can't control that I

pick where the shots gonna be sometimes there is gonna be brush if it you know obviously if it's too much brush no shot but you know is there gonna be a twig in the way and is a bullet gonna perform better or worse than another one and and it's such a good question because I think so many of us are in that position especially I think the listeners of the podcast here I would go down a limb and say most of us are you know grew whitetail hunters at heart like we grew up whitetail hunting and then we started looking out west and and so

I'm a strong proponent of hunt what you like start where you're at, right? You use what you have, start with what you got. You know, I only have one rifle. We're talking about this in the green screen. I own one rifle, folks. I have bought one. I have a 300 win mag. It's a max long range. It's a 12 pound rifle. It's got a huge optic on it. If I put a bipod on it, turns into a 13 pound rifle.

That's all I got. mean, my grandpa passed and I got a couple of his old guns in the safe, but none of them are their memory pieces. They're sentimental firearms. You know, one of them is a single shot rear loading 22 he found at the dump. One of them is a Sears catalog 270. I think he bought it in like the fifties and one of them is a 300 Savage that doesn't have a clip anymore.

Not a lot of options to go on an elk hunt, right?

Silas Morris (18:48.744)

Other.

Brian Krebs (18:52.355)

So I use that for everything. I picked the 300 Win Mag. I mean, I'm an engineer. You guys know I'm pretty analytical. And elk is the main thing. I needed an elk rifle. I got through a couple years of borrowing rifles, and then I'm like, all right, I got a big boy job. I got enough. I can go build my own rifle. But I can only do one. I mean, I could do more, but I'd choose not to. I buy farms and buy tractors, and that's a lot more expensive.

Yeah, and so I'm like I need an elk rifle and and I build the rifle for the species That's either one. You can go one or two ways either the main species That's in scope right like what is? What is this rifle gonna be used for everything you could potentially use this rifle for I kind of call that in scope It's a term from work, but like this project's got a bunch of things that are in scope. You know for me Grizzly bears and brown bears out of scope. I don't want those things

Right? Musk ox, don't have to worry about that. I'm not going to use this rifle for elephants. Right? Could I go on a moose hunt? Sure. But it's not what I'm building this rifle for. If I'm ever going to do a moose hunt, I could do another rifle. Or what is a common thing that's the biggest, right? Like, I do a little this, I do a little that, we do an animal punt every year. I'm mainly going to use it for whitetails in Wisconsin, but I might go elk hunting every three years or so. Well, then I might, you know, still say like, what's the biggest animal?

that you're gonna commonly hunt. Either way, in my case it was elk, and so I'm like, okay, I'm going with .30 caliber. And then you just gotta pick which .30 caliber resonates with you. I've shot .300 short mags, I've shot .30 at sixes, I don't own a .30 at six, no one in my family does, but it is the OG rifle. And I just like the .300 win for whatever reason. It's a common caliber, it's made it through the test of time.

I was really looking forward to a 28 Nosler or a 30 Nosler, but when I bought my rifle, there was no ammo. It was the middle of the ammo crisis and it was a brand new caliber. So there's nothing.

Silas Morris (20:58.001)

Yeah, I think that happened to a lot of people where they were like, man, this 28 Nosler's coming out and it's awesome. Yeah, yeah. And then people bought it and then they complained about, I just can't find any ammo for it. And when you do, you don't want to site the dang thing in and leave yourself for around.

Brian Krebs (21:05.271)

It looked like the perfect gun.

Brian Krebs (21:15.363)

$120 a box. Yeah. Yeah, it's expensive. And so that's what I did. And I think in your position, you know, if you've got access to two guns, and if you want to, sure, go for it. But I mean, it's incremental. now you're buying two different boxes of shells, you're spending twice as much time at the range, you got to set them both in, you're burning twice as much ammo, depending on what your scope, like what you use. Like I'm a big first focal plane guy.

I'm a big dope chart dial. And so it's like now I'm remembering multiple, you know, dope charts and, and low data and drops. And if you want to do that, go for it. Right? Like it's, it would be sweet to have a gun to hunt antelope with. That's not a 301 mag, but you know, I'm not there. So the, your question specifically, like I think a 30 at six, it's, it's the OG 30 caliber. It's the OG big Western gun. I wouldn't change a way. I

not change away from the caliber at all. I would feel zero drive to change away from the caliber. That being said, I do think if folks are listening to this and they are so torn on what gun to buy, they're like, well, I could go on an El Cont, but realistically, like that's probably a one in five or one in 10 year thing. I'm gonna deer hunt every year. I'm probably gonna antelope hunt every three, I think 270 Win Mag is the best caliber that you can buy for an all around gun. I don't think there's a better one out there. And I'm gonna get so much hate from

anyone that doesn't shoot a 270. I don't even shoot one, so don't hate me too hard. I just think like if you need to buy one gun that needs to do everything in the lower 48, it's hard to beat the 270 win.

Silas Morris (22:56.014)

I would agree with you 100%. Like I said, I grew up starting with the 270 and I still have yet to kill a bull elk, but I've killed eight cows and probably five of them were with a 270, 165 grain and holy smokes. Like it absolutely does work and you can neck it up, you can neck it down for whatever you might be doing, you know, but not too much kick.

really all around rifle and like you said everybody says the 30 .6 is the way to go and I'll have to back that up because I still shoot it but man the 270 is definitely a great entry round or a rifle that can get you through a few different hunts through the west.

Brian Krebs (23:42.147)

yeah, it could be a lifetime gun. mean, you can go down for antelope, you can go up to elk. Now I want to mention a caliber, like maybe disclaimer, right? There are a lot of calibers that can do a lot of things. people research it, like the famous question I would say right now, and I think it's starting to kind of start to wane, but the big question was, is the 6 .5 Creedmoor an elk rifle?

It's been a huge forum topic. People are very passionate, depending on what side of the fence they like. No, it's too small. It doesn't have the energy. It's not the size. And the other people are like, well, my wife shot a bullet 400 yards with it, so explain that. You know what mean? A lot of rifles can do a lot of things, but they're not all equal, right? You cannot do everything with a 6 .5 Creed more than a 338 Lapua would do,

Like you still have to look at ballistics and energy. Does that mean you can't go elk hunting with a 6 .5 Creed? Sure, you can go, but you're not going to have the energy downrange at 700 yards that a 338 Lapua will have or a 325 Winchester Shortmeg. And you just have to know that. Doesn't mean you can't go, just get in tighter, you know, strive for that 250 yard shot or a 300 yard shot instead of saying, this, you know, I see guys shoot elk all the time at 600 yards. I'm going to do the same thing with my gun.

You just gotta make that decision. Eventually it will, every rifle eventually loses its effective energy. And then you start getting into some really dangerous zones of like, does your bullet have enough energy to make up for a bad shot? Does it have enough energy to break a front shoulder? Does it have enough energy to get a pass through? And you don't wanna be in that position.

Silas Morris (25:21.077)

Go.

Silas Morris (25:35.979)

No, that's the last thing you need to be thinking about when you're putting the crosshairs on an elk. I get it, the 6 .5, a lot of people kill elk with it, and it definitely reaches out there, but I think that goes into, kind like you had explained with shot placement. I guess the benefit of shooting the .300 or the .338 Lapua is...

Like you said, if you're off and you hit the shoulder, you have enough energy to still do a lot of damage. And if you hit right where you want, it's great. And that's where the six five, you you got to pay attention to the dope charts. You have to understand your max effective range because those things aren't going to directly correlate. might, you might think you made a perfect shot and just be blood trailing for the next three miles and never get closer, you

Brian Krebs (26:23.075)

Right, yeah, you don't want to be in a position where you're about to take this shot and you're saying if everything goes right, this will work. I want to be in a position where I'm like, if almost everything goes wrong, this elk is still dead. If I sneeze when the gun goes off, no matter if the wind gusts, like this shot is so tight. I mean, I have a 500 yard elk rifle and I'm a 500 yard shooter. I'm not a thousand yard shooter.

Silas Morris (26:29.425)

yeah.

Silas Morris (26:35.805)

Yeah.

Silas Morris (26:45.769)

Okay.

Brian Krebs (26:49.123)

I know what my personal capabilities are. The rifle could be a thousand yard elk gun, but I'm not a thousand yard shooter. I still want a nice crispy 55 yard shot. Like I don't want to see the whole elk at minimum zoom on my scope. If that's the shot you take, give me, let's do it. Let's dump this thing at 55 yards. I want to be as close as possible. Right? And so I'm always like, how can we get to the point where

Silas Morris (26:59.133)

No

Brian Krebs (27:16.227)

there's like 99 .9 % confidence. Literally the number one thing that won't work is if the gun misfires. Like at this point that's all it's gonna take, right? And that's, I just encourage people to like focus on that. Don't focus on what can I get away with. Focus on how can I make this an absolute slam

Silas Morris (27:24.38)

Yeah.

Silas Morris (27:36.904)

I would agree. mean, I think there's a lot of people out there, like I said, that shoot the 6 .5, but I think it was Eric Van Warkum with Newly Freak just getting so much backlash for killing his spring bear with a .22 green moor. Everybody's like, there's no way, like that's, you know, and he said the same thing. Yeah, I had to shoot it a couple of times, but it was very effective with it. I think he shot it out to like 550 or something. So it was

Brian Krebs (28:04.45)

Wow.

Silas Morris (28:04.935)

It's you know, it is it is crazy. I would never think about doing that in Colorado has certain rules and restrictions that keep you from using I think below. I can't remember 28 caliber maybe so it's like. There's something about it that's like it definitely. Makes sense when you hit your spot and you hit your target, but with the 22 creeps or if you don't what what are the chances of losing animals? How many? How many shots like you said he had to hit it a couple times so you know I get it, but but that's not just a 22 creep.

that's people shooting high around, you know,

Brian Krebs (28:36.949)

Everything. Yeah. What happens if I miss at a thousand yards with my rifle and I hit a front shoulder? Like, am I going to have enough energy? Yeah, I'll break the front shoulder, but is it just breaking a front shoulder on an elk doesn't get you anything. That elk is going to survive and die in the winter.

Silas Morris (28:49.36)

my, no. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. Like you said, I mean, you might hit right where you want it to, but if you don't know the ballistics and how that bullet's going to travel at a thousand yards, again, like you said, I hope everything goes right. That's probably the last place you want to be. Yeah, exactly. Like that's that last thing.

Brian Krebs (29:05.411)

Yeah, but that's not what I'm saying when I'm about to pull the trigger. So yeah, and so the point here, folks, is if you've got a rifle and it's, you know, any of these calibers, right, maybe like maybe the 6 .5 Creed is all you've got. And maybe buying a second rifle isn't in the cards, right? We can still go elk hunting, right? We can do it, but you just have to understand the tool you're working with and

play accordingly, right? Get into that 250 yard shot, that 300 yard shot. Don't buy in too much to what you'll read, because someone will always have shot one farther. And you never even know if they're true or if they're lying. So just stick to what you know, stick to what you're comfortable with. But the thought here today is like, Silas, you got the 30 out 6. Perfect rifle for everything. And we can make that work. And so what are some of the things that, you know,

that you've been thinking about and then after we talked about certain things that you're doing with your rifle for both the Wisconsin whitetail hunting and the western hunting. Like what's kind of your thought process on how you're going to address that? Are you going to do both rifles? Are you going to stick with the 30?

Silas Morris (30:21.412)

You know, I think, I'm definitely thinking of sticking with the .30 -06. I think for me it would come into kind of like you said, difference between monolithic bullets, you know, all these different things that you can do to increase, you know, your efficiency. I think that would probably be the way to go. Like I said, I always shot the Remington Corloks just because it's what I always shot and I never thought about looking up to it. So I started doing some information, looking at a few things after you had responded

to my comment and I really do think that would probably be the best thing because otherwise like you said, you're buying two boxes of ammo, you're sighting in two rifles, one of them I'm only gonna use nine days a year and the other one I'm only gonna use probably another 10 to 12 days a year. So I think sticking with the same rifle, feeling the same comfortability but maybe instead of shooting 179 grain, figuring out a better bullet with 145

hundred and fifty five hundred sixty grain might be the way to do it but you know like I said it's trying to find that happy medium between just shooting the same bullet and then just trying to figure out whatever is efficient for the hunt that you're going on you know you can put an antelope and leave a small dinner -sized plate on the other side of it and it dumped it right there but you might be like well there's not a

Brian Krebs (31:38.091)

Yeah, and

Silas Morris (31:47.957)

quarter on the other side because it's gone because I used a little Pua but you know I guess that's where some people get into the you know the idea of trophy hunting is just get it down right then you know and if I see a big enough one I'd be

Brian Krebs (32:01.891)

Yeah, and that's what I do. I use my 301 meg for antelope hunting. I've shot a doe antelope with it. I'm going to do it again this fall, hopefully shoot a buck. And so I've got a couple of stories that we can dive into, but I want to talk about the bullets for an example, right? So you were shooting the 180 grain Corloks, right? Yeah, and so I just pulled up two examples here. So number

I witnessed my niece shoot a five by five Bull elk with a 7mm 08. And so for people that are like, well, what's that? Right? I've never heard of that. It's a nuanced caliber. It's been around for a while. It is, I would say the best way to describe it is halfway between a 6 .5 Creedmoor and a 270 Winmeg. Right? The bullet size, the bullet diameter is that seven millimeter.

but it's a smaller casing with a little bit less energy, a little bit, a lot less kick actually than the 270 WinMeg, right? And we're talking like little bits and pieces here, but it's, know, my brother bought it specifically for my niece. Like she's a female, she's smaller, know, like accuracy is always king. And if you get her a big 30 cal that barks and kicks, like you're gonna flinch, everyone does. And so I watched her shoot that with 140 grain TTSX or Barnes TSX.

Right. And so I just pulled up two options here. So that bullet out of the muzzle is going 2 ,820 feet per second as 140 grain bullet. Right. Well, with your 30 -06 Springfield, you could go and I pulled up a Nosler monolithic, they call it expansion tip. That's their monolithic line. 168 grain, 30 -06 has a muzzle velocity of 2 ,800. So you got the same speed with about 28 grains more.

which is 20 % bigger bullet, right? Same speed, 20 % bigger bullet. So then you just do, you know, the mass is linear, right? E equals MC squared, right? You have the same speed, that's the squared part. So you have 20 % more energy, you have 20 % more momentum. That's how that works, right? And so you're like, well, that's a, that bullet is gonna pound elk. It is gonna just hammer them, right? And then you're like, well, 168 to 180.

Brian Krebs (34:24.355)

Well, the thing a lot of people, I don't think realize is that 180 grain cord, lead core bullet is gonna lose 20, somewhere between five to 20%, depending on how fast it's going. The faster it's going, the more it'll frag. The bigger the bones it hits, the more it's gonna frag. If you hit one at 100 yards and you hit the front leg, it's gonna frag

And so you're losing a lot of mass. Now, yes, that mass is going into the animal and it's transferring energy into the animal, which can be very lethal, lots of hemorrhage. But then like you had your experience, you're picking pieces of lead out of the recorder and when you're grinding it up, all of a you hit the piece of lead and your grinder hops and you're like, what was that? You're like, I don't know if I want to eat that pound of hamburger. You know what I mean? And so that 168, that's going to lose 3%. That's typically the average for monolithic.

So that 3 % is 4 .8 grains, 5 .1 grains would probably be closer compared to 20 % of 180, which is 36 grains. So that 180 is gonna turn into a 144 as soon as you hit it. And I think people don't really realize that. They get concerned like, that's a smaller bullet. I want a bigger bullet. I want a better bullet. It's like, well, the energy's there and it's not gonna lose its mass. So it's gonna perform better when it hits the

Silas Morris (35:45.084)

Yes, I agree. think a lot of, I mean, just in the world, people think bigger is better. I can get a 44 ounce drink from the gas station and pay the same price if I wanted the 12 ounce. I'm getting the 44, right? Instead of looking into all of that, and like you said, can, right off the bat, you're gonna say, this is bigger, I'm going for elk, I need everything to hammer this elk as much as I can, as hard as I can.

Instead of focusing on the thought of am I efficient with this rifle? Am I going to hit the front shoulder and just watch it? Load and not do anything the elk is just going to run off with a little blood spot, you know I think that's a really big thing to focus on and that's that's probably my next step is is kind of doing some ballistics You know not testing so much as just looking into it and seeing what other people have to

Brian Krebs (36:38.083)

Yeah, seeing what the options are. And one of the things that I think a lot of people might ask themselves, they might have the same gun as you or I, they're like, yeah, I'm gonna do the same thing. I'm gonna whitel hunt with my .30 -06, maybe in Wisconsin, maybe not. And then I'm gonna go elk hunting. Do I need two different bullets? And so, you know, we've kind of decided, I think you can get a buy with almost everything in the lower 48 if you've got that 6 .5 Creedmoor, which is like a

255 caliber if I my math is right and bigger Right like if you're at you know a 243 I think is a little bit light for out personally some first person is gonna write in be like I shot a 243 I shot a big bullet 243 a thousand yards and it's like well, okay I'm not gonna advise people to do that. You did it good for you I'm happy for you, but I'm not gonna give people that advice 243 great deer round great animal brown. I just don't think it's there for elk so that

I think 6 .5 is basically the next common jump up. And above that, I think you can basically do everything in North America. You might be on an elk at 300 yards instead of 500 yards, which 500 is a long shot anyway. So don't feel bad about that. Most people in most situations can get inside 300 yards of an

Silas Morris (37:54.394)

The longest kill I ever had was 534 yards I believe it was and I was aiming for the lead cow kind of just trotting the whole herd of like 15 -20 of them and I shot once and I saw the vapor trail because it was so early in the morning I saw it hit the dirt so I aimed a little higher the next one I saw it go right under her nose so I aimed just a little bit higher boom and I see something tumble like heck yeah

get over there and I had shot, I mean, it was still a big calf, probably a one -year -old calf, but she had just come out from the front of her mom and it went right under the chin again of the big Lee cow and just hit her right in the ear. It was definitely a lucky shot, right? But holy smokes, like you said, 500 yards is a long ways away. And I was young enough to just keep trying. I think now I probably wouldn't, but I mean, it works.

Brian Krebs (38:50.051)

We've all been there. We've all been there. Yeah. It's 500 is a long, it's a long ways folks. Like you look at it on paper and you see so many forum people post about how they shot at 500 and I think, and they say you need to practice to 500 cause shots are farther in the West and all of that can be true. I think practicing at 500 is wonderful, but that is not the average Western shot. So I just want people to, I would say in the threes, in the threes as average.

Silas Morris (39:13.879)

No.

Silas Morris (39:18.284)

Neither of us. Yeah.

Brian Krebs (39:20.035)

twos and threes is typically where your shots are gonna be. But when you're good at five, that 250 like we talked about earlier, that's when you're like, I know this thing is dead because I can kill this at 500 yards and he's at 247. Right? Yeah, so we, can hunt the same caliber. You don't need to buy a new rifle. Now let's talk about the bullets. Do you need two different bullets? I think if you're like deer elk, my personal opinion is no. And like this one that I pulled up, this Nosler,

Silas Morris (39:31.938)

Yeah, I would agree.

Brian Krebs (39:49.763)

And we have no affiliation with Nazar. I just love their story and it's a family owned brand. The 168, man, I'd love that for White Tails. I've been becoming a fan of lighter and faster bullets for deer. And I think I mentioned that to you as well. I've done a lot of research. I've shot a lot of them. I've shot them with different things as you know, I've shot them with everything from my bow, my shotgun, a muzzleloader, rifles.

I feel like the faster your bullet is going and it's a it's a I think it's a relationship between like speed size and the size of the animal. Right. But I think when you start getting faster and faster and faster bullets that are still solid bullets. There's a better chance that that animal is just going to buckle and fall. And I'm I'm talking research like.

reading Teddy Roosevelt memoirs of his hunting experiences at the Elkhorn Ranch in western North Dakota, shooting mule deer and just commenting like, you know, we had 12 people in camp and the people with the fastest bullets, their bucks dropped on the spot. The people with the slower bullets, they had to track theirs on a horse. And then, you know, going into philosophy on, I feel as a hunter, if you can do anything you can to end that moment.

as fast as possible, like that's what I want to strive for. so I'm, you know, he's talking about how he's switching up to doing like a lightweight 270, right? A light bullet 270, get that speed and velocity. And then where I'm, where I'm going with like, I think it correlates to like bullet size and speed to the animal. When I shot my antelope and it's common, most antelope just buckle and drop. When you shoot them with almost anything. And that's because they're a smaller animal, they're a lighter weight animal. There's a lot of things going on there.

And I've shot elk with my 300 win and I've shot elk with my, or I've shot antelope with my 300 win. The antelope just buckle and drop like you would expect. Big rifle, very fast bullet, I was shooting a monolithic, a lighter weight monolithic. The elk I shoot, they eat them. And I'm like, you so it's just, you can't really say like, I'm just gonna go faster and drop an elk in a strike. Sometimes they do. But I think if you were shooting like a 375 caliber,

Brian Krebs (42:13.251)

with a 4 ,000 feet per second bullet, that elk probably would drop in his tracks too. But it's just a bigger, harder animal. Like you're not gonna maybe see the same thing, but with deer, I think you can influence it. I think you can tip the scales. think that's like the antelope, they're always gonna drop, elk hardly ever gonna drop, but the deer, I think depending on what you build, you can kinda influence it. you go with like a, for the 30 at six, for example, if you're 200 grain bullets, they're probably going what, 24, 2 ,500 feet per second?

Silas Morris (42:42.644)

I think that's probably what it looked like on the box.

Brian Krebs (42:46.051)

Yeah, which you're probably not even going to get and like no one gets box speeds typically unless you have like a super long barrel. If you went from that to maybe even like a 150 grain and you're getting close to 3000 feet per second, I think that is starting to be a place where you might see a difference. Like you might see three out of four bucks drop in their tracks instead of zero out of four bucks, right?

Silas Morris (43:07.826)

True, true. Yeah, yeah, that's a lot better than the 28 that you're getting with just the core locked. You know what I mean? in, in yeah, 180 grains versus 155. if you're getting more speed, like you said, I think, I think that's what does it. When I was growing up, my dad always saw it, shot a seven mag, but he had a buddy that had a, a 308, a 300 rum. And every time his buddy shot something, especially deer, I didn't see him take more than five steps before.

Brian Krebs (43:14.209)

Yeah.

Silas Morris (43:37.476)

game over and it only seemed like no matter where he hit him, think was just that initial shock was just like, I gotta sit down right here. I don't want to go any farther, you know.

Brian Krebs (43:46.753)

Yeah, there's a lot of people that say it's like the it's the ballistic shock wave that goes through them and it like They they the things that I've read have you know, they're all hypothesizing This is some of this stuff was in the 1800s, but they're hypothesizing that it's like a central nervous system shock wave that happens fast enough it kind of like stuns them and They fall and then the second key is like that doesn't kill them. Your well -placed shot kills

But the fact that they were stunned for 15, 20 seconds means they didn't run 200 yards. And that's the difference. And so yeah, think there's a, I think with a lot of calibers, one solid bullet can be your do all bullet. Now, if I had a 6 .5 Creedmoor, like my wife's gun actually bought her antelope hunting ammo today, right? I bought antelope ammo for that. I bought 120 grain monolithic, we're going to shoot faster.

It's gonna kick less. It's a starter bullet too. Like she just got this rifle. We're sighting it in this weekend. So we're, you know, I'm not thinking like an elk hunt that's three, four years away yet. We can pick a different bullet. If I'm on the lighter side of calibers, I'm probably, and I want one bullet to do it all. Cause I like a lot of things about just having one bullet. I know it works. I don't have to re -sight it. And I don't have to update my dope charts. You know, the last thing you want to do is go out West and your dope charts, the wrong dope chart for a different load or your ammo was not what you thought.

I would probably go up. I'd go up heavier. I'd do like the 143s, the 140s instead of the 120s. Same with the 7MM08. But if you're into the 270s or the 30s, like I think you can kind of like this 168, I think you can do everything with it. I don't think you need, I think when you're in that sweet spot in some of these calendars or calibers, I would go for it. I mean, what's the, you know, if you're going to go animal punting, do a double lung shot. Get into 200 yards and do a double lung shot. You're not going to have any wasted meat.

Silas Morris (45:42.479)

Yeah, and then animals probably going to go down. If it doesn't fall right there, it's going to run in a 50 yard circle and then fall, you

Brian Krebs (45:51.457)

So I built my, the reason my gun is kind of like not what most people hunt out west with is because I wanted to track my shots. I wanted to be able to keep my scope field of view on the animal when it kicks. And so it's a very heavy rifle and I have a monster muzzle brake on the end of it that I'd actually really like to switch out to a suppressor. But the thought is I can get back on target faster and track my shots. Right? While this doe antelope was at a hundred yards, I snuck

Perfect shot, safety off, laying down prone.

right shoot I thought I missed because all the antelope are running away and I was on back on target so fast I didn't see it drop but that little bit at a hundred yards that it does take me to get back on track that antelope was already on the ground in and the grass was just tall enough it took me a split second to find it I mean like you said just like a sack of potatoes which is great and it I do believe it was dead the moment it hit the ground somehow

because it did not twitch or move again. It didn't kick, it didn't move. And when I got up to it, so this was 180 grain monolith, it got over 300 windmeg at a hundred yards, right? Like this is the definition of overkill for an antelope. I got up to that thing and I was worried. like this, you know, I don't know how this is going to go. I'm worried I'm going to waste a bunch of meat. First time I've done this, walked up to the antelope and the entry hole and the exit hole were

almost the same size. And the meat loss on the backside when I was when I was butchering this animal, I would say was like a baseball sized, like hemorrhage. Like, you know, where you get that bloody hemorrhaged tissue, no matter what, even if should deal with a bow, like you still have a little bit, you're like, I'm gonna cut that stuff out.

Silas Morris (47:46.145)

Yeah, there's a trauma channel somewhere, you

Brian Krebs (47:49.357)

Yeah, the trauma channel, sure. Yeah, you have that soft tissue damage of all the tissue going out and in and all the capillaries rip. And you get that no matter what you shoot an animal with. Bows, obviously, lesser to a degree, but shotguns, muzzle loaders, rifles, you get that no matter what. And I'm like, well, that wasn't bad at all. And I think, personally, what happened was that bullet has such a big mass and it's going so fast, it didn't even have time to expand. Such a soft, small target. It probably just punched right through and was

quarter expanded and it just I didn't hit any major bones and it didn't cause a lot of damage and I'm like well I'm not gonna get all bent out of shape spending another $1 on an antelope rifle I'm just gonna use this and take that more time take better shots you know fully broadside aim for a double lung and not you know waste maybe a pound maybe a pound of meat so I was like yeah that's when the moment I realized like I think a lot of people blow it out of proportion

Like, you need an antelope gun to antelope hunt. You need to have a different bullet. You can't shoot an antelope with a .30 caliber. You'll waste all the meat. That was not my experience, If you did two shoulders, you're going to waste half an antelope. But that was not my experience.

Silas Morris (49:02.922)

True, yeah, yeah, no, I agree with that. I think a lot of people, especially when it comes to antelope hunting with a rifle and a bow, really, you start to extend your distance that you're comfortable shooting because you've already stocked four or five times and one of them is blown out of the country. So you're like, all right, 300 yards was too close. So let's try to shoot at 400 yards. And even if you have the right rifle, you hit him in the ass twice and then once in the neck to drop him, it's like there's your meat loss right there,

So I'll take, like you said, that baseball sized trauma channel, it's like, I'll take that. And you're saving a little more meat with a better shot and a proper bullet, but I don't know. I think that's just where it goes to. It's just making a good shot as it is. I they're both, I tell a lot of people, like, our firepower and the bullets that we have now and the rifles that we have now are much better than probably what Teddy was shooting back in the day.

you know, and even our ancestors way before us used. So it's like any bullet, you know, in a sense would seem like it would do the job, right? But you can't just grace their back and be like, I did it. You you're gonna have to hit it perfect.

Brian Krebs (50:19.395)

Right, and I think that's a big part of picking one rifle and one bullet. You can spend so much more time shooting that rifle and getting more comfortable with one gun and how it operates. Unless you get every gun in the same platform, which you could do. mean, there's a lot of people, a of target arch, or target rifle guys, long distance guys, will build their long distance, usually a .308, sometimes a .300 PRC.

Six five create these are all long -distance rifles and then they'll get the exact same rifle in a 22 long rifle that doesn't kick at all and it's their practice gun so they shoot that over and over and over again and they train themselves not to flinch so then when they shoot the real one they don't flinch and They're all you know 42 pound not 42 pound rifles. They're all heavy chassis rifles anyway, and none of those calibers kick that much So that's how they do it and they so there's some truth to that

But I think just getting familiar with one gun, how it operates, one load. I'm not changing my sights. I'm not changing my scope for every season. And you know, what's going to happen. You go out. So for you, if you're doing a rifle hunt, typically, that's going to be like October, November for elk. And then Wisconsin's firearm season is like Thanksgiving week. Right? So if you're doing like second, third rifle in Colorado, and then you're coming home and you have four days

switch your ammo out and re -sight in and it's Thanksgiving and it's cold and you gotta get back to work and you're fam, you're not gonna do it and if you do do it you're not gonna spend the time you should. And so then is that as accurate as you can be or would you be better off just picking one bullet for everything? And that's just the question I ask myself and I'm like I know myself good enough to know I'm not gonna spend the time it truly takes to re -sight in a rifle and so I just stick with one

Silas Morris (52:08.518)

Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. And I guess my question for you is, are you still using, I mean, obviously I think you use the same rifle, but are you using the same bullet that you use, say, on your 2019 elk hunt to this day? Or have you kind of switched that up a little bit through shooting different elk? Like I know in Colorado, you got a chance, they gave you a chance, you know? So like, same rifle, same bullet, or has that changed?

Brian Krebs (52:29.355)

Yeah.

so that's a great question. In 2019, I was still borrowing rifles. So I borrowed a 300 Winchester short mag from my dad. Actually, I think I, yeah, I borrowed my dad's rifle to shoot that one. and I was shooting a 200 grain ELDX and I would have stuck with it except for two things. I realized 200 grains is overkill. Like it kicked like a mule

Silas Morris (53:01.988)

cannon.

Brian Krebs (53:03.235)

And it was a light, it was a very light Tika T3 light rifle. Like it was a small rifle. I'm like, yeah, this isn't fun, right? Like I don't need to be the toughest, burliest man out there. People know I'm not already. So why pretend, right? Like why beat myself up when I'm alone to say I'm cool? So that was number one. Number two, I bought my own rifle and it was, I I went back and forth 300 wing and 300 short mag. Picked the 300 one. So I had to pick a different bullet anyway. And then the same thing, the lead got me, finally it was

Silas Morris (53:08.631)

Got

Brian Krebs (53:32.995)

I think I want a monolithic. like, I like, was, was on that same train. I want a big heavy bullet knocking down anything in North America. And then I did some of the research. like, this monolithic is going to do the same thing. Like if I could kill a moose with a 200 grain, I'm going to kill this moose with a 180 grain copper. And so that's, so I switched since then I have shot the same bullet this whole time. And then another nice thing is like, I'm not just a recreational shooter. Like I just don't go.

Silas Morris (53:50.499)

Definitely, yeah.

Brian Krebs (54:02.595)

burn 500 rounds a summer. That's super expensive when you're buying $100 a box ammo. And so the nice thing is like, I'm getting ready for this antelope hunt. I have the ammo I need to practice a little bit this summer, make sure everything's good, and then go on the hunt. I don't need to buy any ammo. that's one nice thing as well, but like just find something that works and stick with it. That's my, yeah.

Silas Morris (54:06.635)

It

Silas Morris (54:23.17)

Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. I enjoy shooting the .30 -06, but like I said, I just figured it was time to kind of dial into, know, if I really want to be effective and I really want to hunt Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico, if I ever get it, Wisconsin, you know, kind of venture out to some of these other states to do more species, it'd be nice to just shoot the same bullet every time and know the performance of it.

You know, like my brother -in -law, his first deer, second deer was like a 163 inch mule deer. He'd been shooting all summer, getting ready for his second rifle hunt. He's got his dope chart onto the, you know, the cheek stock and he's ready to go. And this thing's standing there 250 and I'm ranging it, like telling him 250, he's not shooting. I look over and I'm like, Dylan, you you're gonna shoot? He's like.

Do I use the second dot on my scope? Is that too high? And I'm like, I have never looked through your scope. So I just told him, yeah. I said, I said, yeah. So he shoots and dumps it, you know? And he's like, I don't know why asked you. And I was like, me either. you know, I think everything that people have to understand, like when you go out west and you're shooting whitetails, like you get jacked up, but you see an elk.

you know, a big mule deer and it's like every solid thought that you had that was gonna happen just absolutely goes out the window and you lose it, right? And so that's the other side of it. You don't wanna switch up a bullet and then be like, so what's my effective range with this one? Like now that I'm hunting whitetails and it's standing out there 200 yards, like I was shooting 179 grain, now I got 155. How's it gonna perform? What's it gonna do? But they're already in the trees, you know?

Brian Krebs (56:10.078)

my gosh,

Everyone I'm almost strong component of this if you have a scope that dials or a scope that doesn't You need to memorize two Data points right you're gonna Skype your bullet in for a zero at 200 yards everyone does I Strongly encourage it all the load data is meant for that the box the rifle ammo box is going to be meant for

Strongly unless you like super nuanced like maybe you only hunt Wisconsin whitetails and you'll never have a 200 yard shot Okay, then I could see maybe sighted in for a hundred yards zero But if you're for the West you're gonna sight it in for 200 yards zero and you don't need to worry about anything under 200 yards Just put the crosshairs where you want the bullet to go worst case you're gonna be off by an inch and a half on an elk It's not gonna matter it's and if you're 50 yards away from an antelope, you're not gonna matter either

Silas Morris (56:59.679)

Low.

Brian Krebs (57:07.619)

the crosshairs halfway up and down behind the front shoulder and kill it. So you need to remember two numbers. You need to remember your 300 yard and you need to remember your 400

If it's farther than 400 yards, you don't need to have it memorized because you should be taking the time to make sure it's a calm shot, all the variables are in place, you know the wind, the animal's not moving. There's no such thing as rushing a 500 yard shot, right? There's no such thing as, what's my holdover, what's my holdover, it's 500 yards. You can't do that. If it's 500 yards and you are a 500 yard shooter, you are getting prone. You're adjusting your stance like five times, you're dry firing.

This animal is bedded, it's not going anywhere. There's a reason you're at 500 because you can't get any closer without getting busted. You have time to check your chart. 300, maybe not. Maybe you do have to take a faster 300 yard shot and then you gotta know. So for example, I know my dope is 358. 300 yards I have to dial for a three MOA. 400 yards I have to dial for a five MOA. 500 yards I have to dial for an eight MOA. I actually do memorize the five, but I'm also a lunatic

lives off numbers. but yeah, and so like, if you don't have a dial, you got to know 300 yards is this one, 400 yards is that one. After that, I mean, if you don't have a dial and you're trying to shoot 500 yards, I was like, you might want to rethink this strategy. Like you do not want to be holding off your

Silas Morris (58:35.196)

For sure. Like I said, mean that 534 yard shot that I made, 15 years old, they were standing at 200 and then I just tried to get closer for some reason, you know, so I'm just out there swinging lead. I hadn't shot those bullets that I got last year. I hadn't shot them past like 300 yards and deer -tied last year, a mule deer here in Colorado and I think it was like 402.

And I just didn't shoot. everybody's like, why not? You shot at something at 500. It's like, well, I know, like you said, I know a little bit more now to say I'd rather miss that opportunity than to shoot and miss altogether or to wound it. And now I'm spending the rest of the night by myself trying to find a fricking deer in this burn. Probably not gonna.

Brian Krebs (59:25.699)

I have the same heartbreaking story. Last year, I had a 160 to 165 caliber whitetail on camera that I had known about for two years. he was like, when I say on camera, he was 20 yards from my blind on a mock scrape tree that I built for archery season, but it's now firearm season. That night, like

off and on all week, but the night before, like it's Friday night of gun season, right? Second weekend's coming up. Nine o 'clock at night, he hits that scrape tree. I'm on my way back to the family farm to hunt the weekend. I'm like, it is on, he's on our property. He's alive. He survived opening weekend. Tomorrow morning, it's going to happen. I pull into the farm. He's standing in the parking lot of where we

Silas Morris (01:00:21.698)

no.

Brian Krebs (01:00:22.755)

And so I'm like, shit, back out. I don't know if I've told this story on the pod. I really don't. So I'm like, I'm to get up nine. I'm to be in my stand 90 minutes before first shooting. Like this buck is on our farm. I'm getting in it so ungodly early that there's not a chance I wreck this. Right. I'm not going to bump him on the way in. Sure enough, I pull, I turn the corner off the roads, the headlights swing. He is standing where I parked my truck. And so I'm like, shit.

Silas Morris (01:00:28.248)

I haven't heard it.

Brian Krebs (01:00:52.695)

back out, drive all the way around the farm to somewhere I've never parked and walk in from the back, which now I'm like, well, at least I know where he is. And he was tending a dough. He was locked on her. He didn't care about me at all. I backed out real quick. I took enough for like a four second Snapchat video and then I backed out and I call in and now my heart's jacked. Like he is here. Like did I bump him? Did I move him? What's going

Sun comes up, I'm locked on. I I boy to hunt with a spotter in my stand, cause this farm is like a big open CRP. I can see like 10 square miles around our farm. And so I'm locked over there just scanning. Where is he? Where is he? Where is he? It takes me about like nine o 'clock before I finally see him. He must've been bedded down or something. Stood up, same parking lot where I was gonna park my truck. Starts milling around, hits this creek bed and turns and follows this creek bed down. I'm like, he's coming right to us.

All he has to do is cross this creek and come either check one of two food plots I'm hunting or my scrape tree that he has been on all the time. Like this is he's probably doing as a straight route. He's going to walk underneath my stand. Right. And he walks down that thing and I also it's like, shoot, he's not walking. He's not going to cross it. He's on the wrong side. He's not crossing. So now I'm like, you know, trying to grunt at him. I do a little bit of shaking with the antlers. He stops and stares at

201 yards and it's a shotgun

Silas Morris (01:02:20.052)

my goodness.

Brian Krebs (01:02:22.083)

I'm, and we have some of the world's most accurate shotguns. I mean, I can touch slugs at 200 yards on a bench rest. The problem is the energy drops off and 150 is my absolute max, right? And so I've never done the dope chart to 200 to know what the drop is. I mean, it's rifles and shotguns are drastically different. Like my gun drops eight inches from a hundred to 150, right? So at two,

Silas Morris (01:02:28.768)

wow.

Brian Krebs (01:02:51.139)

From 150 to 200 is like, I don't know, 17 inches, 24 inches. And it was like, for two hours, I had that buck at 201 yards staring at me. I filled up my iPhone full of video filming him through my spotting scope. And I just, like you, I'm like, I've probably done, if I was 16, I probably would have been sending lead. But yeah, so

Silas Morris (01:03:06.442)

Yeah.

Silas Morris (01:03:14.005)

yeah. And you know, who wouldn't? That's the tough thing. And I think, you know, that's the side of hunting that people that don't do it, they think we're just going out there and shooting at anything and everything that walks and moves. it's like, we do have a heart. We do want those animals to suffer the least amount as possible. You know, when you're 15, 16, you're just like, I need to shoot something. You know, all my, they're think this is crazy, especially when it's that

Brian Krebs (01:03:42.659)

This was the biggest buck I've ever seen hunting.

Mainframe 10 pointer and so I pass him he beds down to out and I can see him the whole time He's bedded down I can see the top of his antlers and his head in the CRP and I you know Should I've spot and stock him should I not we've done it once successfully? I don't know. I think he's gonna stand I still think he's gonna stand up and come this way like this is at the mock scrape These are the food plots all the doughs are on my side of the river Sure enough. He stands up walks the other way across

A mile long alfalfa field and then we me and my buddy hunt the two prop me. I'm really good friends with the neighbor. We saw him a couple of other times throughout the weekend. Last day of the season he made it through. So I'm like, I'm gonna get a muzzle or season like opening day of muzzle or season. The neighbor shot him. Neighbor kid shot him.

Silas Morris (01:04:35.175)

And he was, I mean, did you go see him?

Brian Krebs (01:04:38.051)

I know I don't know them. Not the neighbor kid, the next neighbor down. The one that we don't necessarily like, because he shoots the big one that we're all tracking every year. His property just lines up perfectly. And so, bummer. But in other news, I have a 300 yard muzzleloader in transit to my house right now. So we're done hunting with 150 yard shotguns at that farm. We're switching to 300 yard muzzleloaders.

Silas Morris (01:05:01.107)

Nice.

Silas Morris (01:05:07.379)

Yeah, see, I saw a few videos, think Muley Freak, do a lot of, like, think it 500 yards if they shot these, you know, these muzzleloaders and killing deer.

Brian Krebs (01:05:15.649)

Yeah, but they're using custom arrowhead motor loaders.

Silas Morris (01:05:17.843)

True, yeah, so it's like it is possible, right? But like coming from Colorado, it's open sites, know, 50 countless.

Brian Krebs (01:05:25.795)

Yeah, you need 50 open side 50 cows and all the longer the range typically the like 40 is the calibers they're using and then mine's going to be a 45 because they don't have the 40s in stock right now. And so I might actually sell it next year and get a 40 just to get even more accurate long range. yeah, yeah. So heartbreaking story. It's the second year in a row. One year I was bow hunting and the second biggest buck I've ever seen from the stand was at like 60 yards.

Silas Morris (01:05:41.287)

Got

Brian Krebs (01:05:54.403)

And luckily that story ended up nice. My niece got him with a shotgun. So yeah, we chased him for three years. 160 inch mainframe eight with some junk. Yeah, super cool to be able to see

Silas Morris (01:05:57.746)

Okay.

Silas Morris (01:06:05.816)

And whitetails are always like growing up in Colorado. I remember I'd always get like the Buck Masters videos. I'd watch Jackie Bushman. I'd watch all these whitetail hunters, you know, because I didn't think Colorado had whitetails. And then my dad, I just I just like these magazines, these videos because we don't have whitetails. And he's like, yeah, we do. It's just a lot tougher out east in Colorado where the majority of whitetails are. It's kind of like the Midwest.

Brian Krebs (01:06:20.961)

Yeah, well.

Silas Morris (01:06:35.537)

everybody owns the property. So like, even if there is a strip of public, there's enough to put one person on it shooting about 100 yards, you know, so.

Brian Krebs (01:06:36.065)

Yeah, it's all private. Yeah.

Brian Krebs (01:06:46.051)

Yeah, no, it's super cool. One more question I did want to catch you before we leave, because I know we're coming up on an hour. So we had also talked about the optics, because the way you hunt with this .30 Cal, this .30 -06 that you got, drastically different hunting styles. Short range Wisconsin, sometimes faster shots, doing deer drives.

And so we talked about optics a little bit. What are your thoughts now on what you're going to do with your optics for this one platform does all rifle?

Silas Morris (01:07:21.137)

You know, I started thinking about it after you brought it up, because I do have the access to get to the 270 as well. I jumped around, of doing almost what would be like the over -under site. Like you said, you can still get to the rails, but you can also look through the scope if you have to. I thought I was doing that for the 270, but I'm kind of like, you know, you can kind of benefit from that in Colorado as well. I'm more of a, like a spot in stock, so to speak guy. I'll just still hunt most everything.

And I think totally off topic, but what helps Midwest hunters, you know, coming out West hunting is you guys can sit in stands all day, right? And I, I sit a meadow for two hours and I just feel like ripping my hair out. So I'd get up and I walk and can't tell you how many times I've busted something and I'm, I'm on four power. Cause when I was looking through the meadow, I needed it. And now this thing's running away at 60 yards. I can't tell the difference between.

Brian Krebs (01:08:03.768)

Dude.

Silas Morris (01:08:20.654)

you know, the back, the front, a tree, or whatever, you know. So I do think that it would be valuable to maybe create like a little bit of a hybrid gun that has the ability to look under the rail. I mean, like last year when I hunted Wisconsin, doe jumps up in front of me, probably 20 yards. And, you I don't pull up on her, I kind of look and somebody's like, hey, you should, you should pay attention. There might be a buck and he doesn't get to be you in buck out before

Brian Krebs (01:08:23.106)

Yeah.

Silas Morris (01:08:50.606)

probably 135, maybe 140 inch buck jumps up. And I pull up the scope and I can't see Jack's squat. Dude next to me on the line just turns his gun sideways and shoots twice shooting sideways. I'm like, what the hell was that? And he's like, yeah, you just turn it sideways and look down the barrel when they're that close. And I've never heard of that. I'm trying to find the scope and that's.

Brian Krebs (01:09:14.455)

Yeah.

Silas Morris (01:09:17.229)

apparently everybody told me that was the wrong way to go. They're like, no, just look down the side of it or just like look right along the side of your stope at him. It was probably 25 yards, but you know, if you've done enough deer drives or done a few, it's like the dude next to you to left and the right aren't that far. So as you start thinking about swinging, it's like I had five seconds, then there's a dude with orange and then the deer gets behind us. I got another 10 seconds before it just comes into nothing but brush, you know? And

That was kind of the instance that made me say, what do I need to do? Do I need a different gun? Like some people are taking shotguns because they're going to be pushing the drive. And then you said, hey, you're going to be posting this one. And they grabbed the rifle out of the truck with the scope. So I'm like, is that my option? Is that what I should be doing? You I really, I don't know. You drive all those miles to get to Wisconsin. It's like, you kind of want to, kind of want to shoot something, especially when to me, biggest white tail I'd ever seen.

jumps out in front of you, mean 20 yards, I should have been able to hit him once, you know,

Brian Krebs (01:10:20.035)

Yeah. Yeah. So the topic was like, we talked about there's, you know, short range tactical scopes, you could do like a one to six or a two to 10. But then if that's what you're to bring out West or that's what you're to hunt without West, you're like, well, that's not, you know, one to six isn't much. Right. And so then do I like get a three by nine, four by 12, four by 16 and put up with it white tail hunting.

for power on a 20 yard shot, I mean, you're just looking at brown. You have no idea, front shoulder, back shoulder, is it the deer's, you know, it's too tight. And then I was like, well, there's, you know, in the old days, they used to have these scope mounts with the holes drilled out. And so you could, you know, either go up through your scope or you could look under your scope and see your iron sight at the end. Usually they only had the one on the barrel. I'm like, you could probably do

and then leave your 4x16 or whatever you use out west and have the best of both worlds, which I think is kind of the tilt sideways. And I did know about that for ARs, a lot of you know, SEAL team movies you watch and they've got like a big optic on the front and then like a red dot on the side and they just tilt it. And I'm like, well, I thought about that. like, he's not going to have a 45 degree pick rail on his 30 at six. So he's not going be able to put a red dot at 45 degrees. But I didn't think like, yeah, just like don't aim.

Shotgun hunt, like, you know, not aim, shoot or follow through. But yeah, so there's another option for someone that's in the same position, like whitetail short range, western long range. I don't want to buy two scopes, like that's almost as much as two rifles. So how do I make it work with one? And I think that's probably the sweet spot is that style, that style of scope ring.

Silas Morris (01:11:55.892)

Yeah.

Silas Morris (01:11:59.914)

Yeah, I would agree. And like I said, it's five days of sitting in a stand from sun up to sun down. And so I want the scope. Kind like you said, if you're making a 500 yard shot, that animals for the most part just stand in there, bedded, doing something, feeding in the same meadow. It kind of seems that way for whitetails. When I'm in the stand and they come in, as long as you don't drop your little debbies or anything, you should be fine, right? But that's like one day I'm in the stand, the next morning I get picked up

Brian Krebs (01:12:21.891)

Yeah.

Silas Morris (01:12:28.49)

to go do deer drives and I'm looking at my rifle and everybody else is like, dude, that's a cannon. Like, you know, got this big old elk scope on it, but it works when they're standing there, but when they're at 20 yards, it's, I mean, it's World War III, you know, so it's tough.

Brian Krebs (01:12:43.351)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is tough. Well, Silas, I'm super happy that you wrote in that we got to have a chance to have this podcast and talk about, talk about all these questions. Cause I do think they're probably relatable to more people than just you and I. And so I'm glad we could bring this conversation to the podcast, but man, it's been a great time talking to you, talking about hunting, white tails, elk, antelope, mule deer, everything in between, man. I appreciate you being

Silas Morris (01:13:09.265)

Definitely, I appreciate the opportunity. Longtime follower, longtime listener. Yeah, I was excited to get on and yeah, happy about

Brian Krebs (01:13:18.409)

Awesome. This is what happens when you write in folks, not every time, but sometimes you get your chance to be a guest on the podcast. So write in, ask more questions. We love to do it. Thanks again for being here, Silas, and thank you for listening

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