The Science Behind Concealment

Does your camo pattern REALLY matter? The old timers were killing deer in blue jeans. Tons of deer have fallen to the cheapest thing on the shelf at Wally World or hand-me-down faded out Mossy Oak. Guys in the north rock red and black plaid against the snow white backdrop. So it stands to reason that camo is overrated, right? Right?!

While camo doesn't kill deer and isn't essential for being a successful hunter, quality camo CAN keep you concealed and comfortable, meaning more hours in the field. But what all goes into high quality camo? In this episode of The Southern Way Hunting Podcast, Josh talks with Ev Tarrell and Jamie Dykman of Code of Silence about the science behind their camo. Enjoy!

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[00:00:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Southern Way Hunting Sportsman's Empire Podcast Network. I'm your host, Josh Raley. And on this show, you'll hear hunting tactics, stories, and strategies from hunters across the South. Our aim is to sharpen our skills as hunters and outdoorsmen, become more efficient and effective in pursuit of our craft, and even have a little fun while we're at it.

And of course, no matter the pursuit, we focus on doing things the Southern Way.

Hey, welcome back to the Southern Way hunting podcast. I'm your host, Josh Raley. Thank you so much for tuning in with us this week. We've got a little bit of a different episode for you in store. I'm talking with Ev Terrell and Jamie Dykeman from Code of Silence Camo. Code of Silence is pretty new to the market.

I saw them at ATA this year and it was really intriguing to me. The technology that has gone into this camo is impressive. We're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about their core values. [00:01:00] In this episode, we also talk about how to stay warm. And at the very end, I throw to them, what I think is a concern with their camo, something that I think might make it a struggle.

For a Southern hunter to be able to use and get their answer on it. And I'll let you guys decide. I'm not affiliated with code of silence whatsoever. In fact, I am affiliated with Huntworth gear camo really loved their stuff, but when code of silence reached out, I thought, yeah, let's have them on the show.

Let's learn what this is about and we'll let the listeners make the decision. So with all that said, I hope you enjoy the show. All right. Join me for this week's episode of the podcast. I've got Ev Terrell and Jamie Dykeman from Code of Silence. Hey, thanks for joining me today, guys. Appreciate you taking the time to to come on the show.

We're right here in deer season, middle of October right now. What does that look like for you guys as far as getting out in the timber? We're doing every bit of it. We can it's, it's our rut usually starts right around the first of November, so we were a couple of weeks out, but.

We're putting final touches on things and watching cameras like everybody [00:02:00] else and trying to dial in a plan and find a target buck of which we've seen a couple already. So there you go about that. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, it's you know what, you guys are in the outdoor industry. So what that means is that.

Good hunting time comes up. You just shut everything down. There's no work going on and you guys just go hunt for the entire season. That's yeah, exactly. Yeah. We'll be back about December 1st. I think the way it looks right now, yeah, no, we find that balance, it's our super bowl too.

As just individuals and we love being in the woods, you gotta be, but. As a company, we have to be in the woods as well, but it's everybody else's go time too. And they need, sizing information and feedback. And we're planning for next fall line as well, which is crunch time on the manufacturing.

So there's a lot of balls in the air right now, but. Hey, that we wouldn't have it any other way. That's right. That's right. I'll, I always have folks, ask about what's it like to be there in that time of year and for you, just, you get to go hunt and you hunt here and you hunt there and you're [00:03:00] all over the place and it's yeah, it's really great, but what you don't see is I get up at four in the morning and I hunt all day and I maybe I come back at lunch and I work during lunch and then I go back out in the field and I hunt until dark and then I come home and I work until midnight or 1am and I sleep for three hours and then I go hunting again.

That's. The, again, not that I'd have it any other way, but the sacrifices that you have to make, it's not all fun and games sometimes. There's a lot of work to be done, but guys, I want to start off with just giving you a couple minutes to introduce yourself individually, maybe tell me what you do with code of silence.

And then we'll get into kind of the birth of the company. Jamie, why don't you go to, why don't you go first? Yeah. So I am the VP of operations, but. Evan, I and Darren are pretty much the main people that help keep the business moving. I have about 10 years of experience in the outdoor industry.

I actually started at Cabela's. So we're here in Sydney, Nebraska. And that's where Evan and I met within the Honey and Apparel Merchandising Team. Had experience within product development [00:04:00] and. So the company is coming up on, it's like first anniversary here this month. So really exciting.

And a lot of things we have in the line, but yeah, I handle everything from a new relationships customer inquiries product development and just keep the business rolling. What got you into, I guess that lane of the industry. That's. That's such it seems like such a niche area, but when I think a lot of guys are like, man, if I want to do something in the outdoor industry, how do I even, how do I even aim my trajectory to get to that kind of a point?

Yeah, are you talking like product development specifically or are you talking just the outdoor industry? Yeah product development specifically. Yeah So I'll try and button this up quickly because my story's a little So I grew up in Columbus, Ohio I was a city gal who had zero experience hunting and really the outdoor side When I moved out west my expertise was in bovine health.

So I was it I was a [00:05:00] scientist. I was a science nerd So the opportunity out here at Cabela's was the first that I ever really, had outdoor industry experience. My husband is a huge bow hunter. He's the one who showed me the way and has now become a huge part of my life. But the science background...

I think really helped drive that passion into product development because you know that concept of form and function or function versus form However, you want to explain it You really understand that there is a purpose for this belt built like this is supposed to function this way to solve a problem so I already had that genetically in my mind right and had experience within scientific background, not necessarily building products, but those two went hand in hand.

And that's where what drove my passion into staying in that land. That's incredible. Let's get a quick intro from you. I came from Cabela's. I had almost right at 30 years in Cabela's and left about five years ago just to do different [00:06:00] things. 30 years was about enough. And I spent 25 of those 30 years, in, in hunting clothing, running that for Cabela's and had a great run, a great team and a lot of different cool experiences.

You would think that I had my fill of building hunting clothing, but really felt that there was a, an unmet need for some certain attributes. I guess we talked about it in a little bit, but Jamie and I met. Eight years, 10 years ago, 10 years ago. Jamie is funny. She's she might've come from a, a bovine background, but I met her at a kind of a product showcase.

We were showing products to the, some secondary groups or the not secondary, but different groups of the company. And Jamie came in and I really thought I was being set up, Josh. I was like, who is this person that's asking me every question you could ever think of about these products. And pretty soon I figured out it wasn't being set up and that she was a real person and was really just that uniquely interested.

And I was like, I don't know how I'm going to get that person on my team, but. I'm going to figure it [00:07:00] out. And so she she was grateful enough to accept a position in hunting clothing and the rest is sort of history. She just had a great career at Cabela's and I'm really for the brand is very fortunate to have her back on board.

And she's one of those people that just makes it happen. She's right when she says she just does a little bit of everything. I think we both do a lot of, a little bit of everything you can imagine with customer comments. Being a small team, it's about size charts and getting stuff on order and tests.

You just brought in a pair of pants that her and her husband were, testing out this weekend and trying to figure out what's going on with it. She's setting up podcasts and just making it happen. She asked me what she was going to do. And I said, you're going to add, I need to help run the company.

And that's exactly what she's doing. So very cool. Very cool. So tell me about code of silence and maybe it's inception. Like how did code of silence come up and, I'll be honest with you from the outside, looking in a very crowded looking space. But we got to talk a little bit off air and maybe it's not so crowded when you start to stand [00:08:00] apart a little bit.

So tell me about the inception of the company. Yeah. Again, leaving Cabela's and wondering what you're going to do with the rest of your life. And you would think that after 30 years of building hunting clothing, it'd be enough. And, but honestly, the aha moments for me, there wasn't one, but several.

Of just saying, why am I, one of the, one of the big moments was hunting a particular deer about four or five years ago. And I was literally moving my stand up three to five feet. It seemed like by month hiding on the backside of trees with my stand, anything to visually.

Separate myself from, from what the deer was able to visually see when they're walking through. And I'm like, why am I, and I've got 1, 000 set of the best camouflage in the world. And why am I hiding? My camouflage is supposed to be hiding me. And so from a visual side, that was a big deal.

We also just said. Why am I, not able to move, walk into my stand, climb my tree, make things happen when I'm in [00:09:00] a tree from a quietness standpoint. And then warmth being the other key thing. I just, we just really felt that the breathability side of the key to being the key to staying warm was not being managed properly.

Those big three of better level of concealment, better level of quietness, and a better ability to, stay warm on stand. There's still holes in the market, even after, really, almost 45 years of camouflages and serious hunting clothing, and it's like, everybody agreed it was a hole, so here we are.

Yeah I've I've run the full gamut when it comes to camo in my life. I've done the... As cheap as I can possibly find at Walmart or a thrift store. I've also done other options where I spend a ton of money and I'll be honest with you. Yeah, some of the more expensive stuff is great. But there's always something, like it seems like there's always that, ah, if this was different, if that was [00:10:00] different, and I know everyone's body is a little bit different, but yeah, finding something that truly works for you and is a hundred percent functional, I feel like Is a little bit more tough.

So there's, there are holes there in the market that, that, that can be filled, need to be filled. Let's talk a bit about what sets code of silence apart, maybe from some others, from a technology aspect, from maybe just a research and development aspect from gathering feedback from end users. What does that look like for you guys?

Yeah. I'd say, and you're not going to say this because you're too humble, one of the biggest things that sets us apart is the experience in the 30 some plus years of someone who has been behind the scenes for camo clothing. He's not going to say this, but the, that is what I think is the first part is the experience behind the brand and behind the clothing is really comes from his expertise.

And within, as you said, developing humming and clothing after all those years, you're like, do I [00:11:00] really want to continue? And you're like, but exactly what you said, Josh, there's still just a little bit. That's not quite right. And I think that's what led into the passion of code asylums. I think that's I appreciate it, Jamie.

It's yeah, it depends how you look at it. And part of me is like, gosh, after 30 years, you didn't get it right. And now you still got to feel like you still got to go. The concealment side was, is huge. And it really is. And we could talk literally for hours on our position on concealment.

We do really think that light absorbance, It's something that's been overlooked so many ways. There's so many keys though that would suggest that the, our philosophy and the how it applies to animal vision is accurate. You have goose hunters that have moved to flock heads and decoys years ago.

Because of their natural, because of light reflectance or lack thereof, of a flocked head versus a flathead. You have ghillie suits that snipers purposely make out of natural materials with a lot of texture in them. And [00:12:00] I think that is going to be a huge deal in how we understand how to keep from being noticed in the woods by animals in the upcoming years.

Yeah. I don't know if I'm getting off topic, that, that was a big driver aha moment. As I said, there was that one deer that I was hunting. That was amazingly. Capable of seeing, I'm not talking about the same old stand that, you've had for 20 years, you sit in every day that of course they know you're there, I'm talking about hanging and hunting and just having a deer that just picked me off.

And it was like, there is something about clothing that animals, once they figure out what it is that they're looking for, can definitely differentiate. And it's just really went back to the basics of. What I thought was working the best, which was texture and which was organic composition and which was knitted technology in the camouflage.

And we knew that was going to be good. [00:13:00] We knew we needed our own camouflage, not just a conventional one as well. We talked about that in a minute, but we thought, yeah, that's going to be a that's going to be an improvement. And I am just astounded at the difference of animal reaction or lack thereof.

Of what our camouflage and our fabrics provide versus others. It was one of the big three, as I mentioned to you earlier, it was about concealment warrant and quietness as the priorities. But I would tell you that we outkicked coverage on the concealment side. Yeah. I want to get more into that, but I've got to, I've got to tee it up with a story, man.

A lot of folks would say that this was not an expensive camo suit that I bought, but I was in high school and I went down to a, an outlet store for a very popular southern camouflage brand. I bought an early season suit and I was so proud of this thing. It was mesh and it was going to keep me cool for both season and I went out and I climbed up in the tree and I just kept getting busted and we had a deer finally came through the food plot, [00:14:00] triggered a camera that took a picture across the plot and I could see myself.

And I was glowing in the sunlight. It looked like I was just reflecting every bit of sunlight off of my suit. I ditched the thing, threw it away. But, so disappointed, I think I spent 120 bucks on the thing. Today people are like, Okay, that, you got a pair of gloves for that.

But back then though, it felt like a ton and it felt like such a waste. I'm hearing this, knitted material, this concealment that you guys have brought to the market. Let's talk more about that and the impact that has, for situations like my own where you're not a flat surface up there shining.

Yeah. Yeah. So in going to F's point of what really started this was the concealment side in our jack carting technique. Yeah, is that how you would say is the way that our camo is different from others is ours is not printed on fabrics It's actually woven and sewn within the fabric and that's what helps bring that texture That's what helps [00:15:00] really that light absorbency story because to your point like I think and I'm gonna digress just a second, but like I think our today people just are looking at Camel for what looks good for us.

What looks good on us, and don't get me wrong look good, feel good is a real thing, but it's you're missing the whole point of what concealment's supposed to help you do. And the not having the printed, not having entirely synthetic material, and so probably what you had, Josh, was completely synthetic fabrics that just were like, sun reflecting off and while the camel probably looked good, but you're missing the whole point of what concealment really means and what it means to us is reducing, and not being an exception within nature.

Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Yeah. We have to be careful. We can talk a lot on this topic and it's pretty diverse. It really is. And there's just so much. The qualification [00:16:00] if you just look at the simple form of, how animals work through the woods and I'll Jamie kick me if I get it too much in the details, but, we talk about going unnoticed versus unseen.

I guess, as the key difference and I think it's safe to say that animals walk through the woods just like. People drive down the street and, you're not, you're driving, you're not going, oh, there's a mailbox, there's a house, there's a sprinkler, there's a, there's a car, your brain is telling you what is important that you need to focus on.

And those are exceptions. And we think of, being non exception in the woods. And yeah, color matters, pattern matters. But if you're not mimicking the light absorbances of the woods, which by the way, are very textured, very light absorbing. you're going to get noticed. And the proof [00:17:00] point is, what, do you get seen?

Do you not get seen? But just as importantly, do you get forgiven? That was really the qualifier. There's something different going on. And I, I'm not gonna say that Stuff makes you invisible by any means and when I do get noticed, that old doe that, is a tree washer spots me and I go, Oh, it gigs up and suddenly they're going back to feeding, they're going there.

And I have been, defined as something that is unimportant. It. It tells us we're doing something right. It lets you get away with more. The simple form, Josh, I can have two objects. I can have a burlap sack that's one color and I can have a plastic bag that's that exact same color and you lay them out in the woods and which one do you think is easier for you to notice or see?

And it's that principle that I really think has been overlooked. We as hunters or we as consumers, it's been told that, 12 colors and photo realism and [00:18:00] this level of detail is. is going to be the game changer and that's all fine and good. But if it is not mimicking the woods from a light absorbent, slightly flexing standpoint, all bets are off in our opinion.

And it's really like we have a safe and nothing against you can imagine. I'm really good friends with with the big camel companies. I've known Toxie and Bill, for example, for. 30 years, and 35 years and it's, they're great. But we always say, if deer had to wear conventional camouflage, they'd probably be extinct.

They have light absorbing hide for hair because of a lot of the principles we're talking about. That's why sometimes there's a doe standing below me walking around on the leaves and you can hear the leaves drop and you have to reacquaint yourself with where that deer's at.

And it's, Yeah. It's a lot of the same principle. And you mentioned, we're not trying to sell anything. I'm not sitting here trying to go, I think it's a principle that hunters need to embody outside of our clothing. That's really good. Let, how did the [00:19:00] idea for, this woven camo pattern come about, that, that's pretty unique in the space and, trying to accomplish that light absorbency, which I think is way bigger probably than we give it credit for.

Especially on a nice, bright, sunny day. So where did that technology come from? Or the idea was funny, be honest. It wasn't like we said, Oh my gosh, we have to go out and complete this level of light absorbency in our fabrics. It was like, we wanted to have the best concealment technology.

We could, and really looked at the garments and I have thousands of garments you can imagine for. Spending time at Cabela's and field testing every product we ever sold and made over 30 years, you get a, you want to come to my garage sale someday. I'll just tell you that, Josh, you let me know when it's coming.

I'll fly out, but it was definitely the, the more textured fabrics. It was the Jacquard knits. It was the. Organic [00:20:00] componentry that stood out. Not in my mind. The team of our network always thought those were better. And it's that's where we're going to start.

Our camouflage, we could just our actual camouflages in the pattern is very unique as well. It's called S 18, which stands for stand 18. That is unique to, and that's where we started. And like I said, I don't think we thought we were going to be able to make a product that was as. Successful or as beneficial as what this is when we started, it was a little bit of a surprise.

We just thought we were going, we were leveraging best practices and we would have the best we could possibly have. I am, I would. I've told Jamie this, I would hang a sign in our booth at the show and say, if you don't get seen half as much or less than you ever have and if you do get seen, if you don't get forgiven twice as much, bring the stuff back and we'll give you your money back.

It is that different in [00:21:00] the, in a tree in terms of getting noticed or not getting noticed in my opinion. I'm sure again, I do get seen. I do. It's not like it's foolproof. But it is noticeably better. And where it started going to, I think we should share a little bit about our own unique pattern in the S18 camo, and really how that came about.

Because you even mentioned to other, other patterns that are out there, a lot of it is line art. Yeah. And going back to the mimicking nature as close as possible, not only with light, absorbencies, but also from an imagery standpoint. Yeah. The S18 camo is something we're very proud of and what's helped elevate this.

So real quick, Josh on S18 and Jamie's teed this up really well. So Yeah. And again, no, not throwing mud at the way anyone has done camouflage in the past. I've done it myself with Cabela's. We had our own patterns, a conventional label, it's art. It's I'll put a leaf here and a branch here and, okay, it needs something to [00:22:00] fill it in.

And it's that's not very objective. So what we did was we took a survey of our network of people that are pretty much around the central part of the country and said, what's the average Tree stand heights you hunt in, and of course that was all over from 8 to 32 feet, you can imagine, but the average was actually 14.

8 feet. So you put a 6 foot human in that tree stand at belt height, that gets you to 17. 8 feet, rounded up to 18. And then we looked at the 5 most common species of trees, looked at 10 samples on each of those 5 trees at that 18 foot mark. And said, what is the average branch size and the branch density?

And then that drove the element composition of the pattern. So it is truly a scientific approach that applies to where and how people are hunting. And I'll be the first to admit it. Some of those trees are telephone poles. There's no branches and some of them look like your dream apple tree to.

Climb [00:23:00] as a kid and there's branches everywhere, but at least it was an average of those and then the four colors that we have. That's one thing about jacquard knitting. You are limited in the number of colors. If, some patterns have up to 12 or 15 colors. Now, we can't do that.

We're limited before, but we chose the the darkest and lightest, most common colors of the same five trees and then the two middle components. So we have four colors that you can get, I guess you can see him behind us, it's this pattern that we're talking about, this is S18.

Yeah, it's obvious, but it's like, how else would you design a camel? That's what it should do. And, but for 35 years, people haven't been thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that I don't know when you think back, the old stick and twig and branch and leaf patterns, they do, they look good to us.

You hold it up and you're like, boy, that looks like a tree. Realistically how well is that concealing you when you are up against the trunk of a tree and without maybe a ton of cover, but let's get into some of the other pieces here. We've talked about [00:24:00] concealment. I want to hit on the fit and function piece a little bit that has been for some of your higher end camo over the last couple of years, that has been all the rage and all the conversation.

And I get it right. Like I've tried those pieces. Yes, it is better than the stuff that I used to wear. But I'm curious how you guys have maybe had a little bit of a different take on that than something that may be out there on the market already or may have been on the market already. Yeah, it really comes down to, like I said, form and function and focusing on the key needs.

This was, our series was built around tree stand bow hunter, white tail tree stand bow hunter. And a lot of the, a lot of the features that are essential to be successful as a bow hunter. We're end users. We are passion bowhunters. We have, a whole group of people that we utilize, get feedback from a lot of it too, was a minimalist approach.

You can get too cute with things. And I know you've probably seen camo and different product offerings that [00:25:00] have all these cool features. And even packs, for example, too, like I, I was. behind a lot of the pack development back in the day. And you can, the millions of pockets and the millions of features that you have within here is how do I even find my gear?

Because you don't even remember where you put it. So it's it's that fine line of really identifying the key needs of a bow hunter and integrating those essentials within the products. With definitely adequate function, and Jamie's. Spot on. And that, definitely more than adequate function, same time, kind of simplicity to make sure you stay organized when and keep things simplified to where you can make things happen.

Same time, over engineering it's expensive. And that was another slight, more than slight motivation, is, we look, we came from a background of manufacturing clothing. Cabela's was almost 90 percent private label. 10, 000 skews. We build a lot of stuff in the day and they still do, they do a great job, [00:26:00] by the way still a basketball shop in Cabela's, but it's expensive, but why we just didn't see the rationale on why a camouflage coat should cost what they cost and a lot of instances there was there was a value that we thought was being unmet, not that we wanted to undercut a bunch of people in price, but it was just.

We're those people, that good firm handshake and a good value. And we thought that was being left behind, right? Can we talk just a little bit about balance when it comes to quality and cost? I've worked with a couple of different camo brands. They've all been great.

It's been awesome. Giving feedback, product development and that kind of thing before things hit the market. And the feedback you often provide often gets a, yeah, we love the idea, there's no way we can do that in the price point, so therefore it's going to get scrapped. How do you guys walk that fine line between quality and function and [00:27:00] price to the end user?

It's a great question. I don't know if there is a formula necessarily, Josh. We don't, say this is how you rule things in or rule things out. I think we, we start out with the need, I'll pick on our zone 7 top. It's probably our 5 iron. Sorry for the golf analogy, but it's a multifunction just works really well and moderate conditions.

You can layer underneath it. It sells for 180 bucks. There's this raw function that has to have. It has to have a hood that is adjustable to some level that can. Where you can maintain good peripheral vision, it has to have a sleeve construction that is, discreet enough to allow for an archer to function.

We had to do something in the cuff that was, Adjustable yet replaced the old hook and loop or slash Velcro type technology had to have thermal protection with the lower ham lower drawstring, excuse me for wind [00:28:00] protection had to have enough thermal barrier type mid layer protection to allow it to work and the temperatures are designed for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And so there's just a sort of a minimum requirement of features the product had to have to do what it had to do anything else we can. We saw as good bonus stuff that we can. We really thought that coach should be 170, 180, definitely a sub 200 code that was. What we thought was, going to be relevant.

And so you have a budget, you have the fabrics, you have your phone, you have the features, quality is never a question. You're going to build it with. The bar tacking, the stitch requirements the fit, the sizing, the, there is no shortcuts there. There is value. You can find that something that does something better without a brand name or does something as well as something else, the brand name on it, but it's just really working backwards from.

[00:29:00] The function and the price point and hoping it all comes together. And if you can add more things that without going overboard on making it, putting a bunch of frills on it we're all in on that too. Did I describe that? It's funny. It really depends on the business model, right? I have been throughout my years.

I've, been at Cabela's. I've been with private equity firms, been with, Private companies, us, being a privately owned, like the guardrails can change. And I think what you were talking about, Josh is like, it just depends on the business model and what's very unique and also exciting about our business model is it's a very small company where we do have the.

Free reign to do what we feel is right. So we're not really pigeonholed by a lot of those guardrails that a lot of people don't talk about. And I, that was a really good question. And maybe I'm biased just because a lot of my experiences within, product strategy and to be able to say whatever, that business entities guardrails are, you [00:30:00] have to fit these products that are problem solving, but you do have a box that you have to be in.

I don't feel like we have. A very small box, and I feel like we do when we make those decisions of what features go in and the functionality that goes into our garments. It's us really believing in what's doing what's right and what's needed for the consumer. Quality, I'm glad he hit on that, is not something we sacrifice.

It would be more, you can definitely over engineer stuff. But what it comes down as being very strategic on what you feel is needed from the consumer's perspective and how we can solve that within a product and these different pockets or this different fit or this layering piece or this outerwear piece like they almost have a home within the assortment that then have those needs and we cater to what we feel is right within there and it's not necessarily limited.

But with the idea that this also needs to be presented to consumers without them going, this is a ridiculous price, which like [00:31:00] that's, we're not going to be that like, and that, that isn't an. I don't know if you said this, like that was never intentional for us to really position like that.

It was more of identifying what's needed and our efficiencies within manufacturing that allowed us to be able to create great quality products at a value price. Right now, I long-winded that answer, but I thought that was a really good question. That's a great answer. Hopefully I'm not being distracted.

This is the code we're talking about this zone seven. Series. This has a full windproof barrier. This is a stretch cuff I was talking about, which really works well if you want to go inside or outside of gloves. You can see, we go an extra mile. We are so dedicated to the concealment story. So we use our, very expensive rubber fabric on all the way around the cuffs.

We actually line the hood with camouflage. It would be easy to save, I can say, four or five dollars on this garment by putting a brown lining in it, but even when it's up, we did not want that [00:32:00] brown, black inside lining or when it's down. We didn't want that. We really were dedicated to, function.

We have YKK zippers throughout. That's one of the first things that, that goes south, so there was certain things that were just not, up on the table to change. So we have two fabrics here. We have our core Berber shell throughout or wool shell. And then we have inside, we have a, or flatter fleece wool fabric, same thing in the hood, double pockets here, chest pocket here.

drawstring down here, harness vent in the back. Extremely functional. I've worn that, that coat at 46 degrees, 48 degrees. I've layered that coat and been down to six degrees and it is called the Zone 7 Versa Series for a reason. Versa being because of its, it is versatility. Yeah, try to digress there, but that's real life of Explanation of what we're doing. Yeah, no, that's really good. I want to shift gears [00:33:00] and talk just a little bit about the warmth piece that we've alluded to, but also layering when it comes to that. So I'm here in Georgia. We talked off air.

You guys don't have a lot of offerings necessarily for our, 85 to 90 degree opener, like we're working on it. Let me know when you're ready with that. But we also, we have very liberal gun seasons here in the South. So Georgia is going to run. late october on into january alabama, we're gonna run third week of november on into february Mississippi, the same thing november on into late january, Louisiana, the same thing.

So very long season. So we need camo that's gonna, be okay for the nineties early season, but then also take us through the depth of winter here, which is nothing like the depth of winter. in Nebraska or Iowa or Wi it can get chilly and we a unique challenge here w humidity levels when it I mean, I've hunted in ne 10 [00:34:00] temperatures in Wiscons been as cold up there.

Th As down here, hunting on a 35 degree morning when it's really damp out. And it's been damp for a while. That's when I get like cold in my bones and I'm not sure I'm ever going to warm up again, but running in negative three degree temperatures, I remember two years ago, I'm drawing my back on, or drawing a bow back on a deer.

And I can hear the limbs of my bow, like making creaking noises as I'm drawing back and I'm like, I'm going to, I don't even know what to do with this. But I was warm. I wasn't cold. It was a nice dry temperature. So talk to me about the warmth piece that you guys are bringing in. What's making your garments warm?

And then talk to me about the layering piece. What can people do to make sure that they're not, getting overheated on the way to the stand, but then also once they're there, they're comfortable, they're staying warm, they're staying out of the wind, right? Yeah. And I would say this same thing, whether I'm, we're talking about our clothes or things in general I've froze [00:35:00] more than the average guy.

I promise my lifetime. I think a lot of this is getting even for all those tough times. When I did freeze back in the day, everybody else, but I think, humidity is an indicator of the bigger picture of moisture being the biggest enemy and whether that's, yeah, not talking about rain necessarily.

I'm talking about perspiration buildup which, yeah. My rule is general rule. And again, I'm not smartest guy in the world, but I have spent a lot of time out there and my network would agree. But it's not the about. It's not about I hear the term, I'm managing moisture. You have to think about.

Eliminating moisture, it's not a sliding scale or, I'm a little, I'm a little wet locking in. I'm just going to get a little cold. It really doesn't matter how wet you get. It's it's bad. So whatever it takes to stay completely dry going in and then after you get to the stand or close to the [00:36:00] stand about, your body's naturally hot, you're just warmed up and so putting a coat on right away is going to just, create bigger, the same issue you're trying to eliminate, you have to let your body cool down slowly.

And it's about, I'm sure a lot of people have done this. I, yeah. I used to carry two pairs of rubber boots in one to walk all the way to the sand half a mile and then another one to pair socks, two pairs of dry socks inside the new pair of boots and switch out your socks or anything else.

And the difference is amazing. And I think that's where humidity kind of comes in. I think that humidity just makes this the snooker table. of the play here and it makes it that much more critical to stay dry. But that's why we favor breathability and our products are not waterproof. And so I'm not gonna, we're not gonna exaggerate at this point.

We can make waterproof product with the best of them, I promise you. But for most conditions where you do have, where most guys are sitting or gals are sitting with, without snow and rain, and that's where 90 percent of the hunting is [00:37:00] probably done, but breathability. Which leads to quietness, which leads to moisture management is really where we lean hard.

Yeah. It's again, going back to the boot analogy, everybody can relate to, getting cold feet in rubber boots and because of perspiration, it's your upper body and legs. It's the same thing of if you're creating moisture, you're creating. Cold, you're going to get cold. So using more readable fabrics, still providing windproofness and protection is definitely the way to go.

Talk to me a little bit about proper layering when it comes to, especially with use of your camo, what's that going to look like to make sure that I can stay comfortable. Let's say I've got a, an average hike in, mile or half mile, three quarters of a mile, something like that.

Something that a lot of guys are probably going to be doing, especially if they're out on public land, that kind of thing. What is that layering going to look like? What are you going to be packing in depending on, temperature, obviously, but what's your process [00:38:00] going to look like there? A couple of things.

Putting on, clothing again, when you get close, I think, that's pretty obvious. But the most breathable and the most, and the whatever, the lightest thing you can get away with going in. And it's so hard when you get out of the truck or outta your, out of your vehicle, and it cold think you're, it's cold out cold.

And then when you start moving, you're like, oh, having a T-shirt on. Literally, not much more than we have on right now. And saying I'm going out in this dark and this, and yeah, you are. But it's 200 yards down the trail. You're, you warm up. . It's, it is a, it's just a temporary. Challenge.

But so anyway, for sure, going in as light as you possibly can. And then change if you do get wet. If it's I walk, sometimes I walk up to a mile and it's almost impossible. Even if it's 30 degrees outside and you're walking in with just a long sleeve shirt, you get warm and I'm not afraid to change out 100 yards from the tree.

Have a dry set of clothes. But the second thing is [00:39:00] insulation. We do not know a better insulator than air that does not exist. And even the best, when you're talking about down, whether you're talking about most expensive insulations, what is key to those is loft, which is air. And so choosing lofted...

fabrics as your layers. Also huge piece to stay in one. Absolutely. When proofness at some level. We find a balance between breathability, based on everything we just talked about, and providing windproofness. But, that, that sensation, that cold sensation of wind going through is also a killer.

Yeah. For sure. Are you guys producing base layers at this point? Or is that something still on the, oh, I see smiles. Yeah, we're I had to, I had to leave before the conversation and I had to go get My new fabric, which obviously this is not camouflage. This is all about, I think you should rock with it, man.

I love it. Just, let's just [00:40:00] go with that pattern and see what happens. This is Jack hard. This is what I talked about earlier. This is a. This is actually a three layer jacquard, but we have, it's really hard. As simple as it sounds or jacquard way to go. And but to try and texture is the way to go, but to try to find a lightweight textured fabric that is durable enough and that you can make work is it's one of the hardest things I've ever done.

But I think we have it done and we're excited about that for next season. So without showing our whole hand, we'll have a base layer shot. Stay tuned. Stay tuned. That's what we'll say on that front. The last question that I've got for you guys is on that durability piece. Because I'm looking at your fabrics, very, they look very soft to the touch.

Like I'm like, man, that just looks warm, when it comes to just being durable, not getting, slid open or my big thing is briars, man. You get to the, you get to your stand or you finally get back to the truck and you're just covered in beggar's lice or something like that.

And it's I'm throwing this shirt away this afternoon.[00:41:00] What how do you, how does your clothing stand up to that? Or is there any like tricks that you guys have found where okay, we, yeah, it's got some stuff in it but we can get it out pretty easy. Yeah. As you can tell, we're, we're very straightforward people.

We're not going to exaggerate and say, somehow magically this is high textured fabric and it doesn't have an affinity toward burrs. It does. We think that trade off based on the concealment side of things, the warmth side of things, the quietness side of things, a lot of things we haven't even talked about.

It's one thing to have quietness. Day like today and 60 degrees, you mentioned it earlier, you find new sounds and everything you have, your sand and your bows and your boots and everything when it's, when it's cold out. And we definitely favor that side of things. There will be no new noises that pop up because it's cold out.

But anyway we, there's a lot of benefits of our fabrics based on that. They do have some bursts. Burr, not to say issues, it's a dynamic that has to be managed. [00:42:00] Our core products have full length leg zippers for a couple of reasons. One that allows you to put them on closer to the stand and carry them in on your backpack for the warmth side of things.

But if you are in a bad burr situation. Gives you the ability to go in and buy your pair of basewear pants or something like that and put those on when through those burgers, which is what you should be doing. Anyway, right? Like we just talked about you, you shouldn't be walking in with our gear.

You should be carrying it or strapping it to a pack. This new fabric will, will lend some better dynamics on that side of things. But again, we're not going to throw out all of our concealment benefits to try to serve a new master and. Before we've, been okay with this.

We've really had to do some testing on the light absorbent side to make sure it met specs, which were thumbs up. So I actually, Jamie, I'll smile. I had the same fabric strapped to the front of my boots. All [00:43:00] day yesterday, and I picked up four cocker birds and two sand birds, and that was, and it looked great.

I beat the heck out of this thing all day yesterday, and I was very happy with where it landed. Nice. Yeah. Listen, that's a, that's an excellent answer. I love hearing yeah, that it's one of the things that we, you got to try to work around, but we're so committed. To these other values that we have, that we're not going to let that get in the way of those, which I think that's tremendous.

And like you said, you really should have this stuff in a pack or strapped to your back or something like that. You probably shouldn't be crawling through the briars anyway. There might be, there are probably better ways to get where you're going. But as a guy who's primarily hunting public land, man, I found myself just in some really weird situations in the dark, and it's I know we understand.

And I'm not going to I've been through, as you said, beggars license, everybody has stick tights and everybody has their own common name, for the really bad stuff. And [00:44:00] sometimes it's I gotta go sit home for a little bit and clean my stuff up. And it's. We think it's worth it, all the good things, especially as you figure out, where those passes are out and thank God for onyx is anymore.

I can mark a trail and do. Yeah. That's going crossbones. That's right. Burr side of things. Yeah. I I had a again, last year trying to go in as light as possible. Cool as possible. It was warm in November in Wisconsin. Going through a specific area in the dark. And I just had on my wool base layer. And by the time I got to the tree, the thing was just covered.

I got back, I literally got back to the truck and I just threw it away. I was like it's not worth the time. This it's four hours of my time or another. 30 bucks to buy a new one. So 40 bucks or whatever it was. So I think I'll just buy a new one, but guys, thanks so much for coming on the show.

I really appreciate your time today. As you can tell, we like talking about ourselves. No, [00:45:00] this is great. This is great. And like I said, I saw you guys at ATA. In January this past year Bill Winkie was at the booth at the time talking to you guys. And I was starstruck by him. But I've heard good things.

I've heard him say a lot of good things about your camo as well. Where can folks go to find more from you or find out more information if they want to learn more? We go to codasilence. com. We do have some of our products in some Shield stores. Yep. Sportsman's guide. Sportsman's guide as well.

Some local retailers. This is a model, we really, it's funny, I know we're short on time here, we've heard so many people say, oh, the small dealer can't sell a product. Can't sell clothing. We really think this is different. We really hope this works for the small, particularly the archery dealer, the firearms dealer or both.

There's a lot of story to be told here. And we, the values there were, converts pretty well retail, but we're not trying to be Robin hood, but Robin hoods. But that would be really cool if we could find a way [00:46:00] for, the local retailer to be find a line that works for them.

We have some local dealers that have done really well with it so far. And I'm excited about that, but look for more of that in the future. Very good. Very good. All right, guys, if you want to learn more, head over to code of silence. com. I appreciate your time today. Awesome. Thanks Josh. That's all for today's episode.

Thank you so much for tuning in. If you dig this show, please go subscribe to this podcast wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you can leave us a review, I would really appreciate that until next week, let's keep doing things the Southern way.

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