Show Notes
In the latest Antler Up Podcast, host Jeremy Dinsmore is joined by Lindsay Thomas Jr., Chief Communications Officer for the National Deer Association, to dive deep into the science of deer behavior, vision, and management. With 30 years of experience in deer management, Lindsay shares his wealth of knowledge on how habitat and hunting pressure shape deer behavior. The conversation explores the crucial role of habitat management in maintaining healthy deer populations and how hunters can use signs of overbrowsing to assess the quality of the woods they hunt in. Additionally, Lindsay explains how understanding deer vision and communication through scent and vocalizations can dramatically improve hunting strategies, especially when managing hunting pressure.
They also discuss the game-changing impact of technology on hunting and deer research. GPS technology, for example, has revolutionized the understanding of deer movement and has provided insights that benefit both hunters and conservation efforts. Lindsay reveals some surprising data, such as how Thursdays are prime days for buck movement on public land. The episode wraps up with a conversation about the NDA's mission of education and advocacy, as it continues to lead efforts in deer management and the future of hunting. Whether you're a seasoned hunter or just starting out, this episode is packed with insights that will help you become a better steward of the land and a more effective hunter.
So, grab your gear, sit back, and join us on this episode as we Antler Up with Lindsay Thomas Jr. on today's episode of the Antler Up Podcast.
Stay tuned, stay safe, and Antler Up!
https://ourgroundscoffeeco.com/
Show Transcript
Antler Up Podcast (00:00.364)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. I'm joined by chief communications officer for the NDA I got Lindsay Thomas jr. Lindsay. Welcome to the show
Lindsay (00:03.548)
Tell me about it.
Lindsay (00:11.213)
Okay.
Lindsay (00:27.132)
Hey Jeremy, thank you so much for having me.
Antler Up Podcast (00:28.952)
Anytime, man. I'm thrilled to have you on today's show. I mean, we'll talk some whitetail and you know, we're getting to the beginning of the season here in the state of Pennsylvania, which is really exciting. A lot of states across the nation are obviously opened up doing some early season stuff. Heck, even parts of Pennsylvania have already opened up. So deer are already hitting the ground and you know, people are learning and trying new things already this year. So it's exciting time and I'm excited to talk some whitetails with you.
Like you and I had the chance to talk last week and I told you, you were one name on my list that I've been dying to have on the podcast just to get your expertise just because you've been around the game for so long with it and you gave me your history of the writing that you've done for so long. And again, I really like what you put out as far as on social media goes. It's a lot of, I don't want to say concrete, but it's just very...
Like you've done it, you've seen it, and you're trying to help others with that. And I just, I respect that so much. So I'm really looking forward to this one and a long winded introduction for you.
Lindsay (01:37.606)
I'm glad to be here. You know, I would say science based is kind of what I put out there. I'm a journalist by training, and so I've spent my career learning from the scientists that are doing the work on this, the experts and taking what I learned from them, communicating them to my audiences. So, you know, in terms of categorizing the type of information I like to put out, I think that's what I would say is science based.
Antler Up Podcast (02:01.88)
Yeah. Well, that's the aspect of things too. Like for me personally, I find very hard. I don't want to say very hard, but just in this, in this world that we live in as far as the, the social media side of things and, having this platform, I mean, it'll be coming up to five years for me, this January and up into that point, Lindsay, to be completely honest with you, I think I've only missed one week and it was early on in those stages.
So having been that consecutive and finding relatable guests and people that could come on and tell a story or come on and give scientific information, it's kind of hard. So it's nice. These are the breath of fresh air type of episodes. I love to talk to individuals like yourself and they come far few in between because like you and I discussed last week when we chatted on last time and we said, know, a lot of these
individuals that are maybe doing research, they can't really disclose a lot of information and all that type of stuff. So, you know, like you said, you're a journalist and you know, so we will be able to get some, some more scientific things that you've seen done or that have already information that's been out there. So I'm looking forward to it. And I just think too, the way you explain things. So like, I want to go back to what I was saying earlier about the information you put out for me. I
It's just, I could really consume that. think you, you explain it exceptionally well. So that's why I'm thrilled to have you on and get into some whitetail specific things.
Lindsay (03:39.74)
Great, well I'm so glad to be here. I'm happy to talk deer any day of the year, but yeah, right now things are keyed up out there in the whitetail world.
Antler Up Podcast (03:51.826)
So where are you at right now as far as the hunting season goes, Lindsey, just because like I said, PA were, we're just kicking off and everything along those lines. I know you're more down south. So where are you at currently?
Lindsay (04:03.47)
I live in Georgia and our archery season opens September 14th. So we're in a little over a week now, had two weekends. I did get to hunt opening weekend, did not get to hunt this past weekend. I live four hours from my family's land. So I kind of have to.
pick and choose my trips. But I wanted to be there for opening weekend and I had a good time then. Probably gonna go back either this weekend or the next. a lot of times it's the weather. Right now we've got a hurricane bearing down on the southeast that's probably going to hit South Georgia.
Antler Up Podcast (04:33.08)
Mm -hmm.
Lindsay (04:38.406)
through the weekend, Thursday, Friday and into the weekend. So that may affect my travel plans, but yeah, we're already a weekend and Georgia has a pretty long season as far as the country goes. We'll go, gun season will come in around October 20th or so and run all the way through mid January.
Antler Up Podcast (04:58.198)
him. So let me ask you this, Lindsey, how long have you been doing writing when it comes to the outdoor world side of things, especially like Whitetail? How many years of experience do you have under your belt?
Lindsay (05:10.878)
Career -wise, I've been doing this 30 years. I was with Georgia Outdoor News Magazine as an editor there for nine years, and I've been with this organization, the National Deer Association, for 21 years now.
Antler Up Podcast (05:24.44)
That's awesome. And a lot of changes have come and gone through. I'm sure they're in that time. So you've seen so much. like with 30 years of experience, what is the one biggest interest you have when it comes to white tails?
Lindsay (05:42.022)
My biggest interest personally, I mean, is, I guess you can sum it up with the term management, managing deer populations, managing their habitat. I really love the habitat work, but getting to know a population inside and out in terms of things like buck to doe ratio and age structure and tinkering with that age of deer that we harvest and their health and how our habitat manipulation affects that.
That's kind of always been my personal interest. You know, when you look across hunting, everybody's got something they really are passionate about. You know, in the hunting world, it might be deer, it might be ducks, it might be small game turkeys, whatever it is, everybody's got kind of a passion. And then you look at deer and break it down further and you got folks that are really into say archery and shooting their bow. Folks that really know firearms inside and out and shoot a lot and you know.
that sort of thing. So for me, it's the habitat and the deer population itself. That's kind of my passion.
Antler Up Podcast (06:49.268)
Nice. Yeah, there's so much to learn with that too. I feel like that's one of those worlds of there's so many different aspects to it. Like you were saying, the habitat management, the herd management, as far as that goes. Because I know too, I forget where I just saw it, even Kip Adams obviously works for the NDA. I've had Kip on twice on the podcast over the last couple of years. again, a wealth of knowledge from here to the state of Pennsylvania.
And he, know, the one question that he was answering on his social media was, you know, how do you know when, like that buck to dough ratio or when is it safe to quote unquote safe to take a dough and along those lines. So what have you learned through, through your, you know, world of, of studies when it comes to the management side of things as far as like when to take dough, just because like for myself, you know, as a teacher, sometimes it's hard for me to,
depending on how many chances I get. like I try to maximize my opportunities. Like I don't, have some private that I'm able to hunt. and I wouldn't say, I don't even have the opportunity to really manage those private lands. it's just a, mainly it's just, have access to hunt that. And so to go along with that, it's just, if, if, an awesome opportunity comes forward and I have a shot opportunity, I'm taking it. it just seems like everywhere that I've been right now and noticing what
the deer herd has been like, our numbers are strong. So obviously I feel comfortable enough to take a doe early season. So do you map that out as far as like, certain properties or what's a good rule of thumb that as a hunter we could look at as far as when to take doe, when not to take a doe.
Lindsay (08:31.1)
I tell you the thing that for me that I've learned over the years is looking at the habitat, having a feel for that because, you know, once I hunt a place, I like to get to know the plant communities that are out there, not only the trees, but the understory plants, the deer browse and bed in and get a feel for that. What are the native species that are there? What are the invasive species that are there as well?
Antler Up Podcast (08:47.224)
Mm
Lindsay (08:59.9)
because in habitat management you're trying to control those. But a feel for what are the native plants there that are the key deer forages, ones they're going to prefer the most. And it varies a lot regionally, but also there's some species that are just going to be highly preferred deer forages in a lot of regions. So once you learn those and just doing even a quick drive through or walk through of a hunting property, you develop an eye for seeing that
either those high quality, most preferred species are just over -browsed or gone or they're abundant or you see, for example, the lowest quality species being browsed. When you see little signs like that, that quickly tunes you in to, can quickly tune you into kind of where the deer population and density is relative to the amount of forage.
you can either see right off fairly quickly that you're in a situation that's got abundant forage and of quality species. Therefore it's not overbrowse. You're not in a situation that's got more deer than food, you know, or you see those warning signs that says more deer than food. So real quick, you can get a feel once you have, you know, knowledge of the plant species that are out there and how deer use them for
Antler Up Podcast (10:15.874)
Yeah.
Lindsay (10:25.018)
where deer are in that spectrum of too many deer to too few deer or just about right.
Antler Up Podcast (10:29.792)
Yeah. What can we do? I mean, in all in all reality, what can we do as hunters or landowners to support that better habitat management to to meet the wildlife? You know, obviously deer, whitetail specific, but like other other white other animals along those lines to meet their needs. What can we really do for them?
Lindsay (10:51.016)
So for deer and a lot of other species, a lot of it has to do with just getting sunlight on the ground and growing early successional cover, growing young, what we often refer to as young forest cover. If you're in a situation where you're looking at mature hardwood forests or any other mature type of forest, that's older trees that are shaded out, canopied out, and it seems park -like underneath there, to people that often seems nice,
I can walk here. I can see a long way. That's not great for deer. Deer need plants that they can reach, that they can bed in, that they can forage on at ground level. And so many times just producing that, maintaining that, any block of cover, any block of forest is aging before our eyes. As we're looking at it every minute of every day, every day of every year, it's aging as long as you're not doing something to stop that. And so
shrubs are growing, you know, becoming tree saplings, tree saplings are becoming mature trees and shade is increasing. And as shade increases, the quality of that habitat for deer decreases. anything you can do to rewind the clock on that and continue to offer areas that are younger, that have good sunlight and lot of forage for deer is not only going to be good for deer, but there are a ton of species that, you know, game and non -game that benefit
from that young forest and that early successional cover, everything from turkeys to pollinators.
Antler Up Podcast (12:22.304)
Yeah. So let me ask you this. Just maybe you rattled off some things there, but to kind of even, could either elaborate maybe a little bit more or if that's the main key. You know, when it comes to either food shortage or habitat loss, know, what are those signs that we see that are really stressing the whitetail? You like you were saying, you know, when...
there's too much shade or things along those lines. What are some of those signs that we should really take notice? Like, hey, we should really maybe think about doing some, some work here. mean, that to be completely honest with you here in Northeast Pennsylvania, where I hunt and hunt private, Lindsay, it's, it's a very big mountain, big woods area years and years and years ago. mean, I'm 37. was in high school, I believe when they did this one little section of a clear cut burn and it's, you it's very rocky and
It did great for some whitetail, did awesome for turkey. I remember those high school years of just turkey being everywhere up there. But since then, it's been small things when it comes to land management. Like I said, there's no food plots. It's big woods. So like, what are some signs that we could, my dad and I could look at and maybe bring to the individual and say, hey, like, you know, this might be something that we need to look at when it comes to.
could be shortage or habitat improvements to help these whitetail and other species.
Lindsay (13:51.368)
So signs that there's an issue that you could point to would be things like a browse line in the woods where deer have eaten everything that they can reach down to the ground. If you can walk through woods or the edges of woods and the browse line is evident, you can see it like a clear demarcation. That's a sign deer don't have enough food. And many times they'll be damaging things.
Antler Up Podcast (14:00.29)
Mm
Lindsay (14:17.864)
they'll be preventing oak regeneration, for example, because they're eating all the oak seedlings that managed to sprout. So they can impact forest regeneration in that sense. You'll see them browsing things that deer shouldn't want to eat. So, know, conifer needles and invasive plants. And the presence of invasive and non -native plants too can be an indicator
in its own right of a habitat situation that's out of balance because most non -native and invasive plants, deer do not eat. They're eating the native forages that they prefer. So these native plants are fighting against deer and fighting against the non -natives for space. So they've kind of, you know, taken a double whammy. Meanwhile, these non -natives are proliferating and nobody's bothering them. So if non -native plants are widespread and common,
Antler Up Podcast (14:54.53)
Okay.
Lindsay (15:15.344)
in an area, again, that can be a sign that deer have overbrowse the native plants and allow non -native plants to take over. So removing non -native plants is just as good as restoring sunlight in an open field or thinning some timber to get sunlight back on the ground. Opening a food plot, removing a non -native plant in those cases.
again, make space for those native plants that deer use. So those are some of the signs you can point to that show in an out of balance situation that deer are having negative impacts on the landscape.
Antler Up Podcast (15:50.796)
Yeah, that's excellent information there, Lindsay. And so to kind of keep it along the lines of land and along those, along this, can you recall like a really unique hunt where it was outside your comfort zone or in a unique state or type of something that you just weren't used to, accustomed to when it came to whitetail hunting? What was that hunt and where was that located?
Lindsay (16:17.916)
Hmm, that's an interesting one.
Lindsay (16:25.384)
Trying to think, you know, here in Georgia, I hunt from time to time when I can get drawn, I'll hunt public land on our coastal islands here in Georgia. We have a number of barrier islands on the Georgia coast, and surprisingly, most of them are undeveloped. Most of them are public land, either federal land or state -owned. And there are some public hunting opportunities on those islands. They're undeveloped, you there's no bridges that go over there, very, very remote. So...
That's probably one of the most unique situations I've ever been in. You you're going over there, you're camping, you're not managing the habitat over there, you don't know the woods well and there are these deep, deep woods that are remote and it's, yeah, that's probably the most challenging and unique situation.
that I deal with when it comes to deer hunting because you're, you know, you've got a short time, it's a quota hunt, you're camping, you don't have much time to get to know the woods and get to know the deer. You're also sort of, you know, not necessarily competing against the other hunters, but there's other hunters on the island, you know, trying to take some Vincent home on a short hunt as well. So that's probably the most unique situation, similar to what you're asking that I can think of.
Antler Up Podcast (17:44.982)
Yeah, that sounds really cool. There's a buddy of mine, very similar, hunts Michigan and there's a place kind of that's he's speaking to what you just said. There's like an island and there's deer there. Like it's a unique hunt where I think he even said you have to take like a ferry in, which is kind of cool. You know what mean? Like you gotta, you know, it's not, there's no easy way to get there. So yeah, that does seem some challenging situations for you for sure. So I asked you like what your
One of your main interests are is, my, my interest really comes down to communication. Like I love, I don't have a lot of cell cameras out and I like to do a lot of SD cameras where I let them soak in certain locations. I really like to have the opportunity to have them run on video just to learn for years to come. And that's like a lot of those, especially I would say 97 % of those are.
are for years to come and not necessarily for information right now. So when that comes to, for me, when it comes to dear communication, Lindsay, what's your take on that as far as, because obviously we know they heavily rely on scent communications like for scrapes and things along those lines. So, you know, what is your take on, when it comes to that, are you interested in that type of stuff? And, you know, maybe even
Even the vocalization side of things as far as deer communications, what's the things that you've learned over the years that could really help some whitetail hunters, especially now during bow season.
Lindsay (19:22.098)
Yeah, so I do get into that. All of the types of communication that they use. You know, when you do what we do and you're taking the right number of does, you're not harvesting yearling bucks. You're trying to let bucks get a little bit of age on them and you're balancing that buck to doe ratio. You get to hear that a lot more. You get to see a lot more of the rut interactions that don't happen and aren't as intense when, you know, you've got an area that
But harvest pressure is high and nobody's taking any does. and deer health is not necessarily as good either. So you get to hear more vocalizations, you get to see more red activity, things like grunt calls and rattling antlers work better. So there's that, but I think scent communication is probably, you know, the world that whitetails live in more than anything else. Whether that is...
scent on the ground where other deer have walked, but especially around scrapes, you know, leaving scent on the licking limb, leaving it in the scrape itself. I love watching that through my trail cameras. Just yesterday, I got a picture of a doe working a scrape and you don't see that very often. It happens, does do work scrapes, but you just don't often get that picture of a doe, you know.
leaning her head up to lick the licking limb while she's standing in the scrape. You know, you bucks do that, but so yeah, that's a part that interests me, especially when it comes to like my own hunting pressure, because we understand how important scent is to deer, not only in communicating with each other, but you know, defending themselves against predators. So my own scent, how I realize places I walk.
Deer are going to know that. Deer are going to know I've been there. And that's pretty much unavoidable. Now you can certainly reduce your scent, but you never fully eliminate it. So deer are gonna know where I've been, especially if they're downwind of me. using that knowledge, knowing that they live in a world of scent we can't even imagine. That they quote, see a world through scent that we cannot see.
Antler Up Podcast (21:33.91)
you
Lindsay (21:41.136)
is an amazing fact to me about deer and it impacts everything about how we manage and hunt them from a pressure standpoint but also understanding how they're communicating with each other about where they are, where they are in the breeding cycle and where they are geographically.
Antler Up Podcast (21:59.18)
Yeah, that's the one aspect that you brought up about pressure when it comes to calls and everything along those lines. And the one call that I have seemed to have a lot of success with, doesn't matter the time of year, could be September in an out of state hunt in Maryland. It could be early October, the rut. The one call that...
just sometimes to me seems bullet, I don't want to say bulletproof, but one that I've, have more success getting a deer to come in is a snort wheeze. mean, it, mean, I, I won't ever forget. Like I, I was doing it from a couple of years ago, obviously during that late October during the rod. it's like, wow, like I got that deer to literally turn on a dime and come to me. Like there, you know, if I would have rattled that deer would have maybe not have cared if I would have grunted. Cause I've had that happen.
And it just seems like seven out of 10 times a good 70 % of the time. if I do a snort wheeze that deer is coming in at least in some form of fashion. Like even if he holds up or something along those lines and last, last season in the state of Maryland, early season, it got done raining. I was set up over a scrape and it was my last night there. I didn't know if I was going to go back in some other time of the season. I was like, you know what brain just stopped.
There's a scrape here. I'm downwind of it. there's a nice little thicket where this trail is coming out of. Let's give a little blind snort wheeze. Like I did it blindly and I was fixated on this one area that I could have swore because of the way the wind was blowing a deer would come out of and lo and behold, he came out of my whole other direction where I came from actually, which shocked me. and he was a beautiful buck and it just
It happened so fast that he was already underneath me with the canopy and I just didn't have time and he saw me and he busted out of there. And then, you he just, I've had other friends that are extremely great hunters that just even recently this season, same thing, kind of snort wheeze came in and just held up and didn't get that shot opportunity. And it's just like, dude, we're in the month of September.
Antler Up Podcast (24:10.998)
like we're not, is it because their pressure's not on yet or is the snort wheeze like the king of calls that not a lot of people talk about?
Lindsay (24:20.275)
I've never heard one in the wild and it's a pretty rare call from what I understand. I had an interesting conversation the other day with Tess Jolly, who's a wildlife photographer from Alabama. And we were talking about all the behaviors she's witnessed over the years being privileged to photograph deer in a situation where they're not being hunted and she's kind of in there among them spending all day getting photography and...
being lucky over all the years that she's done this to be very close to some situations where bucks are tending does, know, kind of the prime moment there. And she told me something interesting. She told me that the most of the times that she has heard a grunt snort wheeze is when a buck is tending a doe, she's bedded down, he's just hanging around nearby waiting.
which is a lot of what tending is about waiting for this doe to finally become receptive. And he's sort of gotten tired of waiting. He's standing up, walking over to where she's bedding and will do the snort wheeze and stomp the ground. And Tess believes it's a way of him saying, okay, get up. I'm losing patience. That's the situation where she has heard it more often than not. So we often hear that
The snort wheeze is an aggressive call between two bucks and I think it can be, but to hear Tess say that was interesting to me. it, you know, either way, like you said, it's worked out to be a call that was effective at bringing bucks in and you can see it either way. If it means that a buck is tending a doe and that that's what that call means.
it's, you know, incumbent upon other bugs to come in there and check that situation out regardless, whether it's a bug fight or whether... either way, it suggests that there's a estrus doe in the area and they need to go in there and check it out.
Antler Up Podcast (26:18.412)
Yeah. Yeah. To kind of build upon even the snort wheeze, I've had more success with like a dough bleat call than I have another grunt call or rattling antlers. I tell this story from my hunt last year with, you know, the state of Ohio, it was getting down to dark and I saw a deer walking across this hillside and I was waiting for my buddy to come out and I couldn't see. I just saw eyes with my headlamp basically. And I just went,
And I just went, us North we's and that sucker came right down to one of the biggest bucks I've ever seen on. And it was like, it was just so unique because I mean, I literally gave probably the worst North we's the worst kind of grunt, you know, call sound, but this buck, he, came in and he postured up about 12 yards from me I just turned on my headlamp and I put my head down and he just walked off. didn't even spook or anything like that. He walked off. And when I got.
Lindsay (27:13.97)
Ha ha ha!
Antler Up Podcast (27:15.049)
eyes on them, was just like, my gosh, the giants do actually, are, exist basically coming from, you know, where kind of the deer I've always had encounters with, but, it was definitely fascinating. And like I said, the communication side of thing always interests me. And I love when some of my good friends send me videos of, of the way bucks hit scrapes. it's, find it unique. Like for example, I, the one cell camera that I do have up and running.
I had
He was aggressively just tearing up that licking branch. I mean, he was fired up and it was unique to see. And I was just like, man, I just something about it. Just, just, I love it. I just absolutely love the way to see deer communicate and learn from it.
Antler Up Podcast (28:32.348)
So here's what I want to ask you, Lindsay. So moving on from the communication side of things, tell me about you made that video of the deer vision and senses. You talked about the shape of their eyes. To build upon that, how does the color spectrum that deer see impact the way we should think about as far as our gear that we use or anything along those lines?
that color spectrum like. how does that impact us?
Lindsay (29:02.92)
So the science has been done on that. And a lot of that was done actually here in Georgia at the University of Georgia, Deer Lab, number of studies over the years looking at deer eyes and basically examining things like how many rods, how many cones do they have and in what array, what percentage compared to our vision and compared to other things we know about vision. And what they've determined is that deer see in a slightly different color range than we do.
they perceive color, it's not black and white, but they perceive blue in the blue end of the spectrum far better than we do, about 20 times better than we perceive blue. but to that's to the detriment of the red orange end of the spectrum. So we suspect that red orange looks more like a gray brown to them. And so, you your orange vest,
as a color is not going to jump out to them, but something that's blue most likely would stand out to them. And it's interesting because that's when you, when I think about it, it's similar, not the same, but similar to someone who has a red green color deficiency in their vision. And I'm, actually have that. I'm not colorblind, but for me, reds don't pop.
Antler Up Podcast (30:23.596)
Okay.
Lindsay (30:28.766)
particularly when they're against greens and browns, other colors in that same end of the spectrum. Now I know what red is, and when I see something red, I know I'm looking at red, but say for example, blood trailing is probably the best example. Someone with normal color vision could be walking along and looking on the ground and saying, there's blood, there's blood, and seeing it easily. Whereas me, I'm probably gonna have to get down on my hands and knees and get closer.
and then I'll see it. okay. Yeah, I got you. It doesn't jump out to me. So interestingly enough, I think that my vision is probably similar to Adir's, but though not quite the same. Blues also pop to me. When I'm like using flagging tape in the woods to mark something, I always buy blue flagging tape, not orange, because blue really stands out to me in the woods where the orange doesn't. Again, I still see orange. I just don't see it as well against the backgrounds of certain colors. So...
Antler Up Podcast (31:12.088)
Mm
Antler Up Podcast (31:21.272)
Right.
Lindsay (31:24.732)
That's similar to what deer see though I'm sure their color vision is worse even than mine and when it comes to reds and oranges they just don't perceive red as red the way we do.
Antler Up Podcast (31:37.568)
So that's all great information. And maybe for the people that don't have social media that did not get a chance to see that video that you were talking about as far as like the shape of the deer's eyes, do you want to go over that briefly? Just because I found that fascinating. And again, once I saw that video, that's when I was like, I got to get Lindsay on. This is it. I got to message him and get this going. So maybe you can explain that just because again, that's such a good, such good information.
Lindsay (32:04.274)
Yeah, and it's pretty simple. if anybody who owns horses or goats or something like that can see what we're talking about here, but deer have a horizontal or slot shaped pupil like goats do and horses and a few other hoof mammals. And their eyes are situated on the side of not completely laterally on the side of their head, but sort of partially on the sides of their head. And when you consider those
horizontal slot pupils and the position of the eyes on the head, what that gives them is an enormous horizontal band of vision going all the way around except for about 60 degrees in the back of their head. And what that allows them to do is see motion along the horizon very well. Deer don't have great focal acuity. They're not very sharp in terms of their visual acuity. because their eyes are not
They don't have a large overlap, what's called binocular vision like we do in the front. You we can focus in on things. They can't. Their eyes are really designed to give them the broadest potential field of zone that will detect motion. That's their number one way of avoiding danger is to detect something moving toward them or moving near them as soon as possible. So that's what their eyes are designed to do. And what, you know, what I pointed out in this video the other day was something that I saw some
research done by the University of California at Berkeley, looking at the eyes of ungulates and hoof mammals like this. And they talked about something called cyclovergence. And what that means is that a deer's eyes can spin independently in opposite directions when a deer lowers its head. So it's almost kind of a gimbal that keeps the deer's eyes and those horizontal pupils, keeps them parallel to the horizon.
no matter what angle the deer holds its head. So as they tilt their head down, the eyes rotate in opposite directions to maintain that visual field covering the horizon. And the take -home point for a hunter is when their nose is down on the ground picking up a persimmon or a crabapple or an acorn, they can still see motion around them just as well. They're still monitoring their surroundings just as well as when their head is up.
Lindsay (34:28.69)
Some people think wait till they put their head down and then draw your bow. But if you can see the deer's eye, there's a very good chance it's going to detect the motion of you drawing that bow. so knowing that tells you you probably should wait till you can get the deer's head behind a tree or behind some brush, or it's looking directly away from you. In some way, you can't see either one of its eyes when you're at close range. Because the other thing we know about deer vision, again, from some University of Georgia work, is that deer
process visual imagery more rapidly than we do. And what that means is they pick up motion faster than we do. So again, going back to the fact that detecting motion, detecting the presence of a predator in close proximity is one of the most important things for deer to be able to do. That's what they can do. They're very good at detecting motion in a broad visual area. So again, be careful when you draw your bow.
pay careful attention to the deer's eyes, because when their head's down, it doesn't necessarily mean they can't see you.
Antler Up Podcast (35:33.58)
Yeah. So to kind of even build upon that, obviously it's something different. And it's the, guess the one of the questions that's a, you know, it gets asked a lot, but like for me personally, I'm not a big fan of stopping deer by making a noise. It just seemed like every time I do that, it's the deer either just goes, just runs off and, or whatever. I always try to pick my spots.
I'm not saying that I like to shoot a walking deer, but any chance that I could really let that deer stop on its own and then take my shot. That's what I'm doing. What can we, is there anything that you've learned or understand as far as that goes? mean, obviously deer behavior is all different and everything along those lines, but where do you stand on that?
Lindsay (36:23.262)
Well, the thing about deer hearing is they're very good at pinpointing the locations of sounds. We know they've got fairly large ears. You've seen them use them like sonar radar dishes. But the interesting thing about deer's ears is they can move them in different directions. They can pivot one forward and then you'll see them sometimes turn the other ear literally to cup behind them at
Antler Up Podcast (36:36.044)
Yeah.
Lindsay (36:49.402)
covering two different directions at one time. And the reason for that, when you can do that, if we could do that, if our ears were that large and we could move them independently like that, we would be even better at pinpointing the locations of the origin source of any sound. So that's the danger in making a sound yourself is, you I think, and you watch videos of people doing this when they're hunting, my opinion is you better be drawn, you better be aiming, you better be ready to release that arrow or pull the trigger.
as soon as the deer stops. You're not gonna make a noise like that and then have the deer stand around and wonder what's going on. They're going to pinpoint your location pretty quickly when you do that, particularly if you make more than one sound. yeah, they're good at pinpointing location with sound, so you gotta be careful doing that.
Antler Up Podcast (37:41.43)
Yeah. So like right now we're, like I said, we're towards the end of September here in Pennsylvania. If not all, every single white tail buck has shed his velvet. And with that, some behavioral biological standpoint has changed for them. I mean, I guess I could go out on a limb and say that. And, you know, like with that, obviously some, some behavior changes, you know, physiologically and, and, know, they prepare for, for the what's to like, to come up.
What are some other, I mean, obviously other than the rut, what other changes happens that you could really speak upon about these whitetail like this time of year? Because I feel like this is the time of year where a lot, if any point in time throughout the year has the most impact and change for a whitetail.
Lindsay (38:31.376)
Movement is the big one. Bucks are expanding their movement. Now that's rut related. So yeah, you you're right. The rut is bringing about a lot of changes, physiological changes, the testosterone is rising, their necks are swelling, know, does are getting ready to come into estrus. They're beginning to do the scrapes and the rubs and the things to increase the communication about what's going on out there relative to the breeding season. But movement is the big one. Bucks.
start expanding their movement and they cover the greatest percentage of their home ranges during the pre -rut and the rut of any other time of year. Summer is the smallest percentage of a home range that they'll use. They can track their movements a good bit and the rut's going to be the greatest. know, bachelor groups breaking up and spreading apart from each other and bucks covering more ground. That's probably, you know, that's another big change is simply in movements. Bucks that you might've been
seeing on camera or seeing with binoculars in summer, very likely to disappear at this point, know, quote disappear and you don't know where they went because they're covering more ground and perhaps even changing to a different compartment of their home range for the rut. Some bucks do that. So yeah, the movement change is the biggest one. You know, we'll at this time of year,
particularly in the rut, you may see bucks you've never had on camera before, didn't have them last year, didn't have them all summer, haven't seen them before now, and you might not see them again. So yeah, the change up in location and movement is, know, other than just the physiological changes of the rut, that's probably the biggest one.
Antler Up Podcast (40:16.002)
So if you had a couple deer, I don't want to just pinhole you up against one deer here, Lindsay. You had a couple bucks that you would be more than happy to wrap your hands around their antlers. What would be your approach? Would you try to go in early season or would you kind of hold out for an October hunt or a rut hunt? if you knew you had a chance at one of these three deer, let's say three, you had three amigos to potentially get after.
Which one, which one are you, what type of season are you really going to try to put, put a little bit more effort into it to get the job done.
Lindsay (40:53.782)
Year in and year out for me, it's going to be the peak of breeding wherever that is in the calendar. You know, for us in coastal Georgia, it's late October, first week of November. Halloween is kind of the peak for us. And so that's, to me, that is the best opportunity when you have a particular buck you're seeing on camera, your nose in the area, your best chance of seeing him moving in daylight is during that period of time of year. End of story.
They just don't move as much or as much in daylight as they do during the peak of breeding. And of course, we all know that during the peak of breeding bucks are a little less cautious as well. Sometimes if they're gonna make a mistake, it's gonna be during the rut because they're kind of got one thing on their mind. And they often will, they're not, they don't lack caution.
but they're less cautious than they normally would be. So those two things kind of are to your advantage. know, the only time I would jump out there say right now in the pre -rut, in the early season and go after a particular buck is if I just had managed to get a camera in a core zone of where this buck is living and I'm seeing him every day and there's a pattern there of his location and time of day or.
some food resource he's coming to like a persimmon tree or whatever that is just looking really good and likely on my camera, I might go there to try to get that buck at that place in time. But I've never had that happen to me actually. yeah, for me, is peak of breeding is when I'm going after a particular buck just because it's the most likely time of year I am to see him.
Antler Up Podcast (42:32.62)
Yeah.
Antler Up Podcast (42:45.068)
Yeah, it's tough. That early season has become very difficult. mean, this past, this past year it was October 23rd, whatever that Monday was 22nd, 23rd. that's, that was like one of the earliest bucks that I've had the chance to, to wrap my tag around basically, as far as that goes in the state of PA, you know, I've killed opening day does stuff like that, but no, no bucks.
And, know, that was a really cool experience for me and seeing how that goes. mean, I've had a couple opportunities in years past where it would have been like the 18th things along those lines, just because of the way my work schedule was a couple of years ago, we would have like these in -service days. And so I would have some time to go, go out there and there were a couple really nice two years in a row that I had missed opportunities on. But so like with that.
I want to transition to a little bit as far as like talking a little bit about hunting pressure and it could be private land. could be public land. Obviously when we get into the woods, when it finally happens, it's the season, depending on how much you get in there. And obviously your entry routes and exit routes all play a critical role in being like we were even saying earlier about our scent and everything about how much pressure we could put on these deer.
Especially for, for public land, Lindsay, because we don't know if we go out on a Saturday, we don't know who's going in out there the next day on a Sunday here in PA to scout. Obviously there's only three weekends we could hunt here, but then who's who has that Monday off that's going in there that we don't know and, putting all the pressure in. So when you talk about how you were saying early season, maybe having a deer on camera and things change a little bit, right? Maybe, maybe there's a food source or that pressure. What specific signs.
should we look for to adjust like to these higher pressure areas? like, what, what things should we look at when we were like, man, other than the deer, maybe not showing up as much. Cause it seems like more than ever this year, I've talked to more people that said, I don't have cameras out. don't have cameras out. So I feel like there's not going to be as much kind of like finger on that tab basically to say like on the pulse. So if those individuals that aren't running cameras,
Antler Up Podcast (45:02.094)
What kind of signs should we be looking at as far as, you know, understanding like there's a lot of pressure in this area?
Lindsay (45:08.85)
Well, when it comes to pressure, you know, looking at human patterns is really the best thing to do. Understanding where the people are, whether it's where you've been, your hunting partners, or on a public land situation, just trying to anticipate where most of the pressure is going to be. You know, there's been a lot of studies done on public hunting land that showed that most of the pressure of course occurs...
fairly close to a public road, a road that is open to vehicle traffic. And that, you know, only a small percentage of public land hunters go further than about, you know, a quarter mile away from the nearest road. So finding an area that is remote many times on public land or any area that's hunted heavily, finding, mapping out an area that just is not being hit by hunters or seen.
used by hunters is probably going to point you to an area that'd be good to try because we know from the studies of deer wearing GPS collars that they respond quickly to our pressure. They don't leave the area but they change their movement locations and their movement times to avoid areas where we go. you know, it's simply if you can find those empty spaces on the map where people aren't going, many times you're going to find deer there.
And then two, not just in space, but in time as well. Auburn University did an interesting study a few years back where they had a lot of deer collared, GPS tracking collars on public and private land, looking at hunting pressure, looking at deer movements. And, you know, one of the things they noticed was that on public land in particular, the best day of the week to see bucks for overall movement, but especially daylight movement was a Thursday.
Antler Up Podcast (47:03.426)
I was going to say, I was just about to say Wednesday or Thursday.
Lindsay (47:03.848)
and
Yeah, it was Thursday. you know, there's some other science. In this case out of, well, Auburn as well did this work as well in another location. Looking at the amount of time it takes for a deer stand to recover from hunting pressure in terms of bucks movement patterns to return to normal relative to that deer stand, they found it took two to three days before buck movements around a deer stand returned to normal after that stand was hunted. So think about that. got
people piling into public land on Saturday and Sunday. Well, Thursday is, you what you got three days and then there's Thursday after a weekend. So that's, that makes sense that they saw that Thursday was the best day of the week on public land for overall buck movement and especially daylight movement. was, it took them that long to recover from the surge of hunting pressure on that land. So again, space, where are people not going, but also time, when are people not there?
Antler Up Podcast (48:07.928)
lot too. it's, man, that's, that's all really good information. And like you said, there are studies out there that we could all read and check out. And, know, to kind of go off of that research too, Lindsay, the, we, wrap things up, you know, like you said earlier, 30 years in the game, so much has changed, so much has developed with the use of technology. You know, how do you see that continuing to shape deer research and management practices? And just because that's all benefiting not only
us as hunters, but individuals that are managing the land, managing our species and along those lines. So how do you see that continuously shape as far as the research goes in the future?
Lindsay (48:50.526)
Yeah, it has changed so much in my 30 years. know, when I was starting out as a deer journalist, people were still putting radio tracking collars on deer where you had to go out and triangulate a deer's location. You know, you had to listen and use an antenna, get a beep that showed you a straight line to where the deer was located. Then you had to drive to another location and get a second location on it and then a third and then triangulate to pinpoint where the deer was on the map.
Now we've got GPS collars and their technology has improved greatly over years. When GPS tracking collars first came out, you might get a deer's location every few hours. Today, they're giving you a location on the deer every few minutes, 24 hours a day. They can tell you even that the deer has stopped moving, so it's possibly dead. And the accuracy of the location too has improved.
The maps we're getting now in deer movements with these GPS tracking collars are just mind blowing how good they are. know, we're literally, Mississippi State University is literally studying bedding behaviors, looking at how often bucks bed in the same location and, you know, where they bed. that technology has vastly improved. We've also now got DNA that we weren't able to examine 30 years ago that has taught us things about
deer relationships, how many fawns a buck produces over his lifetime, things like antler genetics. It's shown us again what we suspected, which is you can't manage deer genetics in wild deer. yeah, those two things, GPS tracking collars and DNA are probably the two biggest advances in technology in terms of what they've shown us about deer that we did not know 30 years ago.
Antler Up Podcast (50:42.75)
Yeah, that's exciting. about the NDA? What's the future initiatives that you are excited about as far as the NDA initiatives in the future?
Lindsay (50:52.136)
So a lot of what we've always worked on that will probably never go away in terms of hunter recruitment, in terms of policy and advocacy, making sure that every year when legislatures meet and Congress meets, that good deer policy is being passed and bad deer policy is being stopped.
the education of deer hunters about habitat and deer management and deer biology and the new science we're learning is always ongoing. But then, know, things change as well. 30 years ago, when I started work, I didn't know what chronic wasting disease was. And now that is a big factor in the future of deer and deer hunting. So it's something that we work on a lot. You know,
Dough Harvest, believe it or not, we've come full circle. 30 years ago, this organization I worked for was trying to get deer hunters to learn about dough harvest and learn that they needed to take some dough sometimes. Well, we succeeded there, came a long way, and then in the last five years or so, trends have receded from that. We're going back toward harvesting more bucks nationally than doughs, and we're starting to see a trend again toward
high density deer populations and inadequate doe harvest in some areas. So now we're shifting back, shifting gears back to a message about doe harvest again, because it's time to harp on that again. So, you know, there are some new things, there's some old things that are never going away. There's some old things that went away and are gonna come back. I guess, you know, we've got job security.
Antler Up Podcast (52:33.75)
Yeah. Well, I'm absolutely, man, even in the state of Pennsylvania, when you look at my unit where I currently live, we have that brand new extended firearm season when it comes to in January. That's brand new this year. So I don't know how I feel about it. You know, in the middle of January, you know, before for that extended archery season, basically was that in the flintlock. Now you got you're able to take your rifle out. And it's like, man,
those deer are going to be heavily pressured this year. And I'm really anxious to see how that's going to turn out. To kind of wrap it up, Lindsay, and I'm going to give you a couple of rapid fire questions. You could answer it in short, short one word or two, like a sentence or two answer. So when it comes to, I think I'm going to know this one because I kind of alluded to it earlier, favorite deer hunting season, early, pre -rut, rut, or late season?
Lindsay (53:31.962)
Anyone that's open. That's right. I can't say that I have a favorite. I love them all. If season's open, I'm going. I'm on bow hunt with the mosquitoes early season. I'm going to hunt the rut. I'm going to be there till the season closes and it's cold and dark, you know, late in the year. So I don't honestly don't think I have a favorite.
Antler Up Podcast (53:33.464)
You have the time, right? Anyone that's open and you have the time to hunt it. I like it.
Antler Up Podcast (53:56.404)
I like it. What's the one piece of gear you never leave home without during the season?
Lindsay (54:01.745)
A thermocell.
Antler Up Podcast (54:03.916)
down in Georgia, I could see that. Because hunting Maryland last year and Delaware a couple of years ago, was like, my gosh, this is the greatest invention of all time when it comes to mosquitoes.
Lindsay (54:05.25)
Yeah, coastal Georgia.
Lindsay (54:15.738)
Yeah, I mean, you know in coastal Georgia we can get warm days warm spells and warm afternoons in December and even into January and You just never know you think it's December January I'm glad the mosquitoes are gone and then you know a warm afternoon hits and they appear so in coastal Georgia I never hunt without a thermos cell
Antler Up Podcast (54:37.92)
Yep. If you could hunt one state or region for the rest of your life, where would it be?
Lindsay (54:44.082)
South Georgia.
Antler Up Podcast (54:45.824)
I like it. Homebody, I like it. Last question.
Lindsay (54:48.496)
I mean, I know that sounds like an introvert or something, but it's just the land I know, it's the habitat I know, it's the woods I know, and the deer I know, it's land I'm from. So it's just, that's where my heart is, it's where I love to hunt.
Antler Up Podcast (55:02.634)
I like it. What's, do you think the state of Pennsylvania? So I know you're, you're, you're down South, but I know you, you know, have some friends up here and everything like that. Well, we finally see in the future within five years, let's, let's go five years. Will we see Sunday hunting throughout the season?
Lindsay (55:21.458)
Can I phone a friend? Need to ask Kip on that one. I thought y 'all passed Sunday hunting.
Antler Up Podcast (55:22.936)
man.
Well, we have, we have three days. It's getting there. We're getting closer. We're getting very close. It's like the last, to be honest with you, I'm horrible with it. think we have one more major big vote where it needs to go. And if it gets approved, then I think we're golden. So I keep telling people, I think it could be next year. I think it could be the 25, 26 season. Fingers crossed. You have no idea as far as being an educator, how much I would absolutely appreciate that. I know.
Lindsay (55:33.746)
Okay.
Lindsay (55:57.894)
I bet. And I mean, that's the factor behind this. It's why we support allowing Sunday hunting is because of opportunity. Chances for folks to get in the woods, you know, more than they normally could if you can't hunt Sundays. A lot of these laws date way back. They go back to a time when people were trying to minimize pressure on deer and still allow people to hunt them because populations were thin and stretched and, you know, shaky and they wanted to restore deer. Those days are gone.
Antler Up Podcast (56:05.142)
Yep.
Antler Up Podcast (56:12.876)
Mm -mm.
Lindsay (56:27.138)
There's no biological reason to maintain Sunday hunting, not from the deer population standpoint, and so many positive social reasons to open that opportunity up to new hunters, old hunters, young hunters, everyone. So yeah, we're fully in favor of Sunday hunting and glad to see the trends in recent years going toward the end of those laws.
Antler Up Podcast (56:50.71)
Yeah. And again, I'm not sitting here debating the whole when should our rifle season open? Should it not open on a Saturday anymore and go back to a Monday hunting, all that type of stuff. it's just, you know, not everybody grew up in a camp and it's, I love the tradition. I love hearing people's story about it. And I'm all for that. I think you could, you know, go, you could still do that in a different way maybe, but.
Yeah, I just, as far as it goes with my line of work, I need that Sunday. You know, I shouldn't say I need it. It's just, it would be so welcomed just because you're, limited on your time, as far as during the week goes and all that type of stuff. So I would appreciate it. I'm sure a lot of other people would as well. Lindsay, I can't thank you enough. It was an honor to have you on to speak with you.
I hope you stay in touch and where can people listen to you, follow along, see what the NDA is up to just because you have a lot of initiatives, you have a lot of branches. So where can people maybe look in to help out and look at more information?
Lindsay (57:59.806)
Go to deerassociation .com. That's our website. And I'd urge everybody to click that join button. There's a free basic membership. Doesn't cost you anything. Sign up to be a free basic member. You'll receive our weekly e -newsletter that goes out every Thursday morning. Got great deer information in it. Keep you up to date on our events and our mission work. That's the best way to start engaging on social media. We're at deer association as our handle and everything. Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube. So look us up at
Deer Association.
Antler Up Podcast (58:30.506)
Awesome, Lindsay. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and your knowledge, everything. Thanks again, everybody, for tuning in. I hope you enjoy this one. We'll see you next week. Antler up.
