Show Notes
The Spirit of the hunter and the tenacity of the dog is a mutual bond that transcends languages and cultures.
On this episode of the Houndsman XP Podcast, host, Chris Powell is joined by Per Englund. Per is a contracted government hunter, hound handler for bear research and hardcore bear hunter and he is from Sweden.
There may be many differences in the language, customs and culture but listeners will get a full understanding that the excitement of hunting with great dogs is the same wherever we call home.
Chris and Per have a great chat about bear hunting, the style of dog that is desired and the challenges of hunting brown bear with hounds. Per talks about his government work and how his plotts respond to recovering wounded bear and hogs. The two chat a bit about bear research and the importance it plays in human medicine.
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] The Hounds XP podcast is fueled by joy Dog, food joy. Dog food has a rich tradition of supporting the Hounds man of America. Founded in 1945, joy is proud of its history and the relationship it has built with the American Hounds man. And in 76 years, there's never been a recall made with a hundred percent American made high quality ingredients.
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This is the Homan XP podcast.
Good dog.
The original podcast for the complete hounds.
The podcast that represent our lifestyle of extreme performance.[00:02:00]
Yeah. Good boy, ranger Uniting Homan across the globe from east to west, north to south. If you're gonna catch a cat or a line, you have to have teamwork. We take you to the wildest places on earth. Yeah. So how many days a week can you spend At as much as I can, to be honest with you, anytime that I get I'm out there.
Join us for every heart-pounding adventure on Hounds Man xp. I'll tell you, like I tell everyone else, I'm gonna hunt whether you're here or not, so you might as well be here.
Hey folks. Thanks for tuning in to the Hounds Man XP podcast. I'm your host, Chris Powell. If you've been [00:03:00] following us at all, anywhere you've seen the sick new dog box that we're getting ready to drop, it's gonna come on the market full force June 1st. You can pre-order in the month of May and get free shipping on that bad boy.
I built that box. Out of necessity for myself, I, it was just hard for me to find a box that suited me and suited the style of hunting was built the way I wanted one built. We're talking about reinforcement around the crush points in the corners around the top rail. It's fully insulated. You can get it in Bear Ultra bright.
Diamond plate or you can get it in powder coat, either option. And we thought through the whole thing. I wanted Vince that stayed where they were supposed to stay. I wanted door handles that were secure. So the recess tea handle doors, if you close those tea handles, your hound can't get it open. And that's happened to me.
It's all stuff that I've had, have gone through my entire [00:04:00] hunting career and dealt with different designs on boxes. The best thing about this box is it's a custom like style box with the aluminum frame diamond plate. All the features make you feel like you've got a custom box, but they're gonna be available for immediate delivery.
You can check that box out by going to hounds men xp.com, clicking on the banner at the top and the full writeup is on there. I know some of you wanted a solid divider. We listened to you, we put a solid divider in it. So there you go. I don't like it. I think it cuts down on your airflow, but you guys wanted it, so I put it in there.
We did a little bit of testing on it going down the road and with our vents on. Three sides of this box. Your door vents, you got a side vent. And then on the very back of the box, there's a vent there too. There's plenty of ventilation rolling through there. So I just went with a [00:05:00] solid on it just for you guys.
Just for you guys. It's not gonna hurt one thing, anything, one way or another. And it's sure not gonna hurt anything by having it in there. I get the risks of having, the open divider deal. So it's not gonna hurt anything. Let's do it. Let's see how it goes. I think you're really gonna like it.
It's got top stories on it. I'll, the main thing that I really like it is I've got a box with top stories now. And I can actually see how the rear view mirror and see things behind my vehicle. Super excited about that. It is more of a coonhound style box. Bird hunters, man, you need to be taking a look at this box.
It's awesome you got storage up top for your gear and plenty of room for your bird dogs down below. Beagle. Guys, same thing. This isn't just a coon hunters box. We called it the competition extreme because we wanted to des to design something that met the demands of these guys that are running up and down the road.
Chasing these hounds in competition. So there you go. On this episode, the Hounds Inman XP [00:06:00] podcast. We're going to Swedens, we're gonna talk to Para England. He's a bear hunter over there. And we're gonna talk about the differences in bear hunting in the us, the traditional bear hunting in the US versus hunting in Sweden.
They hunt brown bear over there. They've got some different restrictions that we don't have. Pair also is a member of their wounded game recovery team. You're gonna hear about that, how he uses plots to re recover bears that were injured or involved in accidents. So you're gonna hear about that and we're gonna talk about the bear research that they do too.
Very interesting topic for this week. That's all I got folks. This is a box shaker. Let's get the doors open on the competition. Extreme. It's time to dump the box. There we go. Oh, there we go. Yeah. So I only used, I only use this like every other day, and [00:07:00] every day is like a new adventure for me, so No problem.
Yeah. Your English is outstanding, by the way. Oh no. We must start by apologizing for my bad English. Not at all. Not at all. I'm serious. Your English is much better than my Swedish, I can tell you that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The only the only Swedish word I know is yah. Yeah. That's a good start.
It's better to learn, yah than nay, because nay is no right. Oh man. It's an honor to have you on the Homan XP podcast pair. We've got a mutual friend and Mike Coley. I know that I gotta tell you right up front that my heart was broken when I heard, when I saw that Kim Sabi went to Sweden.
Ah, so you knew about that dog. You hunted with Kim Abi maybe? I think I did a couple times. Yeah. Yeah. He was the dog that [00:08:00] started my, my bear hunting career because I. A friend a guy, a friend of mine, he got the opportunity to buy Sabbe from Mike. And I was out walking with my BirdDogs pointer dogs like 15 years ago.
And one of, in, in the garden of one of my neighbors hang recently, yeah, it was a kill from this actual day. And they were skinning this bear and on the ground tied up. Next to it was SK and a couple of other dogs also. And I immediately just fell for that dog. Yeah.
Because he was so cool. So nice dog. And really difficult to judge on that first impression in the garden there. That he was a really good BirdDog already. Yeah, my first exposure to that, to Sabi, he was just a puppy. The first, [00:09:00] one of the first times I ever hunted with Mike, and we were hunting in the marsh.
We were hog hunting, and the older dogs were out running and they had a hog that they were trailing pretty hot. And when we pulled in the boat into the bank, we actually pulled up to an island and we, I don't, Mike didn't realize we were on an island and he grabs a couple of the dogs, and Kema, Sabi was one of 'em.
He runs to the other side and realizes that he's on an island and he just cut 'em loose. He just turned 'em loose and those two young dogs hit that channel. Like they were Labrador retrievers. They hit the water, swam across there, got right in the race, ran the whole thing, and we're at the bay when we got there.
And I thought, wow. That's when I started realizing that I needed some of Mike's dogs, yep. Yeah. Good. First impression. So I told my friend there that day 15 years ago, I said, [00:10:00] if you ever breed this male, I want a puppy Uhhuh. And I, and the plot hound breed was total new. I have never never, ever before met a plot hound.
But I fell in love directly through Kims Abi and One and a half year after I had my first plot, a son of Chemis Abe. And then a few years later this guy, he tragically passed away and I got the opportunity to overtake Chemis Abe when he was five or six. And that w that was like a rocket start for my bear hunting career.
What, kinda describe how he operated for our listeners tell people what was outstanding about him that you liked so much. He was really self-sufficient. You could You could like free search with him at least after the few after a [00:11:00] few seasons here because he was a bit interested in our moose here in the in the first years.
But after two or three seasons with many bear kills and zero moose skills, then that, that interest just slowly faded away. And after that, he was incredible. I could walk with him like a bird dog, and he kept around my legs and a little bit more until he felt a hug track or a bear track.
Then he just started working on it with a nose on the ground. And we know that we. Started a few bears, which we know were like 20, between 15 and 20 hours old. And we have had a few other good dogs too, but it was always Kim Abe who fixed the really tough si the toughest [00:12:00] situations.
So he had a pretty cold nose and he was self-sufficient and he was a tough guy. He didn't need any cavalry behind him. He, he did it. He was a really lone hunting dog. Yeah. Yeah. I think we be, I think we better tell our listeners where you're from. And let's talk about Sweden a bit.
Yeah. I think I just told everybody where you're from, but we've got very not to mix up with Switzerland. Can the moment, that's the small mountain country of central Europe. This is Scandinavia, north Europe. But it's mountainous in Sweden as well, right? Yeah, but not as in not like Alps and the, not like the Alps.
Yeah. We have yeah, maybe 30% of the highest peaks compared to the Alps. Yeah. Yeah. So whereabouts in Sweden or would you be located? Pretty much in the middle. But on the east on the [00:13:00] East Coast. So it's Sweden is a long country from south to north.
So we have a a big difference in weather, a little bit like south United States compared to North United States. Real winter in the north, and really nice summer weather long summers in the South. And I live somewhere in between there. Yeah. Yeah. So I think we have, like the climate wise, we are a bit like Michigan, north Michigan, I would say.
Yeah, that's what I was looking at my own map here to try to give me some reference and you would be about the same. You're a little bit farther north than Maine and Michigan, but probably the difference in the jet streams or something make the climates similar to, to those spots, so this is, I live three hours north from our capital [00:14:00] Stockholm, three hours drive. Yeah. And we have bears around the house here. So I live in bear country. Yeah. And let's talk about those bears for we'll talk about 'em throughout our whole conversation here.
But they're not black bears. Nope. They are they are the same species as the. The G grist list you have in the north of your continent there. But they are they don't they don't grow so big as some of your do. I think the record the record bear from hunting is like 800 pounds.
And in, in in kept in like Zeus and so they can even go up to 1000 pounds. But that's really big ones. Most of the ones we hunt are say between 250 to [00:15:00] 400 pounds. I would say that's an average. Do they have the same nasty attitude as our grizzlies are known for aggressive.
I'm not no. No, I don't think they are. They accidents do happen, but it's more or less yeah it's 99.9% hunters who who end up in those nasty situation when they get attacked. And and mostly the reason is that they're out with their moose hunting dog.
And the mo the dog runs into a bear, which defends her cubs or his den or a car cast or so, and he chases away the dog and the dog runs to, to the dog handler. And then you have a, an accident. But they seldom kill the guy. They just tell them on bare language that you are in, you are you have passed into my comfort zone.[00:16:00]
That would be, that would get away. That'd be a good enough message for me. Oh yeah. It's chew on my face a little bit. I get it. I, I understand what you're trying to tell me here. Sounds like you're sounds like your bears are a little more understanding than are grizzlies here in the United States then, because sometimes they don't stop with, they don't understand that you might get the message and they'll just keep chewing on you.
Yeah. No, that's, they are. They're not considered as monsters here. Definitely not. They could have killed many people during many years, but they just don't do it. We don't seem to be on their menu. Yeah. It's just that they are protecting three things, food babies and their home.
They're done. They're done. Sure. What are you've had the opportunity to hunt the United States and you've obviously got an extensive background in hunting in Sweden. And maybe we can [00:17:00] talk about the differences and do some comparisons to hunting in Sweden as to hunting in the United States and just lay out some of those comparisons for our audience.
Sure. So whereabouts did you hunt in the us? In in Michigan Upper Peninsula. But it was training season so then, what I didn't do. So we only trained the dogs but we did it a couple of time times. And it was both with success and sometimes with no success.
So it was really interesting to, to see and if you ask me, it's a totally different kind of hunt than we do. It's very different. In what ways would it be different? Number one our hunt is I can't speak for all bear hunters in the United States, BA based on one week's dog training in Michigan.
[00:18:00] But also when I look at videos and read magazines, and so I, I see little bit the same pattern and the same differences. Our hunt is very physical. We are not allowed to use any vehicle at all. Not a car, not a quad, not a four-wheeler. Not even a bicycle cycle with electrical engine.
It's not allowed, not during finding tracks or so and definitely not during the hunt. So it's totally illegal. So to have any use of an engine vehicle This means and if you if the dogs jump a runner it's not seldom that the bear just runs away 10, 15 miles before they stop.
And then you have a nice walk to walk there and walk back. Yeah. Yeah. And walk. But walk back if the Probably there are some roads [00:19:00] closer. So when the hunt is over the bear is down, then you are allowed to use vehicles. You can pick up the bear with a quad and a wagon and all the other hunters can take their cars and come and help and to skin and gut.
And so when the hunt is over, there is no problem. Are you allowed to use radios in Sweden to Oh yeah. We use radios and we use tracker system so that we see all the time where we have the dog, we have a G s M based tracker system as a compliment to the radio based.
Which is really good. So as long as I have contact with the phone operator, I can see what my dog is doing and where he is. Even if he's five hours drive away from me, there is no limit distance limit on that. No kidding. Yeah, it's real, it's a invention from Finland, Nokia so it's it's origin [00:20:00] is from guys from the telecom industry in Finland.
So you're not running, like in the United States, the biggest tracking outfit, dog tracking outfit, of course would be Garmin. And you're not running Garmins, you're using another system. Yeah, we actually many of us use double collars. We both have a garin and a GSM based, but more and more we leave the Garin because Garin is like stone aged com compared to this.
And with the, if you hunt in big hunting areas, which we do where you are still in the hunting area, even if the dog even if the hunt goes away 10, 15 miles you lose the contact with the dog after five, 10 minutes of a on a running bear. But with this G s M based system you see the dog all the time, as long as you have contact on your phone.
[00:21:00] Okay. So I assume that it's similar set up with a transponder attached to a collar and then it goes through your phone network is how it operates, right? I'm not gonna lie, I get extremely frustrated with the G p s tracking systems because of loss of signals and losing dogs and having interference and things like that.
Would you mind providing me with a link or something for what? Send it to me over on WhatsApp. Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know if that would work in the United States or not, but I definitely no, they don't have the service outside Scandinavia. Actually, I asked them because when I showed my friend in Michigan, our system and the maps, you look on your phone on real maps which you can use as a map with with everything on it, it looks like a really good map. And you can switch from normal painted, pr printed [00:22:00] map to a satellite photos. You can even see. You can see, okay, now the bear and the dogs are going out from that dense forest into the, this cutting area or into a moor or whatever.
It's amazing. Yeah, it is amazing. Yeah. That's some amazing technology right there. I'm still gonna look at it. Even if we can't use it. Yeah. Over here in the United States because I'm just interested in it. Yep, for sure. Yeah. I've actually threatened to to not play the Garmin game anymore. They just dropped a new product, come out the Garmin 300 and their 20 p t 25 collars, and I'm about ready to go back to the old telemetry system with the beep, beep collars and things like that.
It, if you know how to use one of those, you don't get the accuracy, but man, they are dependable. You would love this system. Many of my friends, they, they don't just don't use the garment tracker [00:23:00] system anymore. They only use this, but for safety reasons, I use this because sometimes I am.
I'm hunting far out really far out in the countryside, and there you could have a bad phone signal. Then you, then I have use of of the garment tracker. Okay. As long, as, long as the dog is not too far away from me or on the other side of a mountain. Sure. So I have it as a backup, basically.
That makes sense. When I hunt, I don't look at the garment. I keep it in my, my pocket and look on my phone instead. Do your garments in Sweden or do they have the s o s feature on them where you can hit the, so S button, inre, we call it inReach here in the United States.
I'm not, I don't have the latest color, so I'm not too updated on that. It comes through your handheld, it's a feature we call inReach. So it, it sends an automatic [00:24:00] signal to the satellite when you have an emergency and then it gives your location so that somebody can find you.
Alright. Yeah. Yeah. But I do have that kind of feature on an app in my phone. Yeah. Yeah. So if I call nine one one, they directly see on a map my position. Yeah. Let's let, I want to take it back to the conversation about how you hunt in the vehicle use. Yeah. So basically what you're saying is, in Sweden, you simply drive to the area that you're going to hunt, and then you strike out on foot and your whole hunt.
From beginning to end has to be conducted from with your vehicle parked and there's no driving around to cut dogs off or anything like that? Nope. So I've got questions about that. When do you decide maybe when do [00:25:00] you decide that, Hey, we're not gonna catch this bear, so I need to recover my dogs at that point?
Can you use your vehicle to recover dogs? Yep. Yep. Yep. Because then I take a personal decision. Okay. I'm out of the hunt now. So the rifle is packed is packed down in, in the, in its bag and put in the backseat or whatever. And then I'm out of the hunt, and then it's totally free to, to try to come as close as you can and pick up your dogs.
So that, that happens sometimes. Especially if they go far out of of the hunting area where we are allowed to hunt. Then we normally. Quickly quit the hunt and go and pick up the dogs. And same if the dogs have a dangerous direction towards the highway or wherever, then we also just, then one of us just close his hunt and take the car and try to catch the dogs.
Yeah, [00:26:00] interesting. But many times I've been guest hunting with some people. And they look at, they look, we look together on a gps. Oh, this is Ron Bear. Oh, he is they are 10 miles away now. And I say, okay now let's be a little bit patient.
So we we take a cup of coffee on our backpacks or make a fire and gorilla sausage. And then sometimes after 20 minutes or half an hour, we see that, oops. 180 degrees coming back into the hunting area because many bears they many runner bears, they want to come back to their home area, in the end. It, it happens pretty often that they run away and then turn back. And then we're hunting again. There's just so many things as you're talking. So many questions. I have Paris, so forgive me if I'm bouncing around a little bit because it's it's really intriguing to me [00:27:00] to listen to you talk about your hunting style over there.
Compared to a black bear, how would you describe how a your brown bear runs in Sweden? Is it similar? They don't climb trees, if I understand. No, very seldom. Very seldom. And okay. If you by mistake get a hunt on on female with cubs, the cubs will tree pretty pretty fast.
But since they are protected we try to avoid that by all means to check. Yeah. So we, okay. That's why we don't do like free search hunt. We try to get a tip from a truck driver or whatever who saw a bear last night or this morning, or in the middle of the night and start hunting on that or on a fresh bear poo on a road or whatever.
That brings up another question. Every time you say something, it brings up a question in my mind. [00:28:00] All right. So if the Cubs will tree. Do you have dogs that will stay with those cubs that are treated if they go up a tree and do your dog's tree and stay there instead of pursuing the sow that moves on?
Has that ever happened? Yes. Sometimes they split the two dogs split. So one stays at the tree and the other one goes away with a sow. Yes, I can, if I was hunting one dog and had dogs treated on a cub, I think I would be terrified as I was walking in to get my dog. Yeah. Will the sow hang around there or will she so she, that would be a difficult situation cuz I would think.
She will not run far away. She'll, yeah. She will keep around there. She will try to get the dogs. She will she will kill the dogs if she can. Yeah. So that's the most dangerous situation for the dogs. Small quick sow with [00:29:00] her, with the cubs to defend that.
That's a nightmare for me as a dog handler. It could be a dangerous situation for you as well, I would imagine. Yeah. Yeah. It could. So we do a lot to minimize that risk. Yeah. Yeah. So most of the times when we release the dogs, we know what kind of, of bear it is. Yeah.
It sounds a lot like that, that's similar to here. If you're, if we're out hunting in places and we find a track. And then we can verify that, that it's got a a, so with Cubs nearby then there's Cub tracks there as well. Then we don't turn loose on that track.
Yeah. Interesting. It's interesting. You do a lot of different stuff over there per, and I know you're involved in the research, you're also into the recovery. I think it'd be interesting to talk about your work and the recovery part with animals that[00:30:00] are involved in traffic s that are struck by automobiles and trains.
So I think we have a pretty, pretty modern system for handling. Traffic wounds traffic wounded animals. So there is like a limit from fox and smaller animals. They are out of the system, but the bigger ones like the deer, the moose the wolves, the bears they are included in in this.
So this means that all all car drivers, they it's a law they have to report if they hit one of these included animals on the road or and also the train drivers, they have to do it and they report it into the yeah, 9 1 1 system. And then the operators have a list of of hunters with different specialties.
So some of us are, [00:31:00] have really good, experienced moose dogs, so they will be called out if it's a moose situation. And me and a hunting friend, we are called out if there is a bear that that is hit by a car or a train, so they can call us in the middle of the night. And then we are like we are like contracted by the and pay and we get we get a small pay for it also. So the operator calls you, tells you where the location is of this, and I'll use terms, the crash site. And then your government has made it an obligation to go out and track these animals that are injured by automobiles in Sweden.
Yeah. Yeah. To try to finish their pains and and also that this animal doesn't cause another car accident or train accident. Yeah. That's interesting. A [00:32:00] bear that is that a bear on three legs or whatever could also be a potential danger when it start to get hungry.
Sure. Yeah. So that's why and thi this system works works really good. So we are both both we hunters and our dogs are insured through through the police system when we are out on missions like this, which is also how, that's interesting too, that your insurance, I guess that makes sense, that you would be insured by the.
Local government. When you're out there doing that type of work, how many calls? How many calls do you normally get in a year's period for that sort of work fair? Are you using OnX maps while you're out running your hounds? I know I do. There are all kinds of features within OnX in that app that allows me to mark den trees.
It allows me to mark terrain features. It keeps me from floating my hat on those [00:33:00] deep stream crossing so I can mark those shallow places where I can cross streams. I use it all the time, whether I'm east or west. And the east property is chopped up into smaller chunks, and when a dog gets through the country, I can actually look on OnX, dial it in, see who owns that property, and plan my route in and out of there to retrieve my hound when I'm hunting in the west.
Same thing. All the terrain features are included on OnX maps, and I can plan my route. I don't always have a choice of where my hounds end up, but I can always depend on OnX to get me in and out of there as quickly and as easily as possible. You can save 20% on your next purchase at OnX when you go to OnX maps.com.
And at checkout. You enter the code H X P 20, you'll get 20% off of your next subscription when you go to houseman xp.com. Click on the sponsor tab and join us on [00:34:00] Patreon. You will receive a code to get 30% off of your next subscription of OnX. Know where you stand with OnX. I would say five calls. Five calls on yeah, between four and seven calls per year on, on average. And we, and I also do wild bore. Okay. There's also a similar number o of situations with the wild bore. Do you find that do your dogs track differently on wounded game than they do when you're just out hunting? Have you noticed any changes in your dog's behavior? Not really, but yes, they are, they're a bit more eager.
When they feel the the, if they feel like blood and very strong adrenaline, probably it smells more than healthy. Bear. I'm just [00:35:00] speculating about it. But yeah, I think they're a little bit more eager and, hard, harder to hold before you le release them. Yeah.
The chemicals from the body would change, with pheromones and things like that, that was something that came to mind. We've, we talk a lot about police dog training and different things, and in my experience as a police, Dog handler. And then Heath, of course, one of our other hosts has got a lot of experience with this.
Two, the differences in a person who is being pursued with a police canine and just tracking a regular, normal, calm person is completely different. The dogs are a lot more eager when they think they're actually chasing somebody that's got that increased adrenaline and their, the pheromone dumps and different things the dogs are, react to that odor or scent completely different.
[00:36:00] So I think it's interesting to, to know if you see that when you're tracking wounded game versus, when you're just out trying to walk across a track and put your dogs on normal, healthy, wild animals. And also what I what I realized is that. When the dogs know that I'm coming that I'm with them then their safety plugs just blow.
So they get really cra and that's a dangerous situation. Yeah. So I have to be careful how and when I run forward to the dogs because I must be ready to help the dogs. Because they get really crazy. Normally I want them just to, even if it's a wounded bear, I want them to keep a couple of feets distance at the Bay up.
But when I approach and they know that I'm approaching or they see me then this distance is really close. They even try to pick on the [00:37:00] bear sometimes, right? And I don't like that. So I need to make a quick kill there in, in that situation just to to save the dogs.
I would say that your dogs probably know the difference between, if you go to enough of these calls from the 9 1 1 operators, they know when they show up. That, that it's a different situation than just going out and trying free casting and hunting. The probably, so dogs are so non-verbal and they pick up on our attitudes and the way we react to things that we don't even realize how much of an impact we have on their emotional state and their reactions and stuff.
Just by the way we conduct themselves. We see it all the, I see it a lot with especially new trainers. They get to a tree and a tree treat animal here, whether they're a raccoon or a bear or whatever, and they're really praising the dog and they're getting 'em really [00:38:00] hyped up and different things to the point that the dogs they'll start making mistakes eventually if you don't handle yourself in a certain way, properly.
And I can, I've seen this as well, on Hog Bay ups, if you go running in there and you're in a panic, the dogs, all of a sudden they get this burst energy and it's like they're latching onto hogs. And then you end up with, a wreck on your hands. Yeah. So they absolutely are masters at reading us.
We're, they're far better at reading us than we are reading them. Oh yeah. Sometimes. Oh, yeah, boy, I totally agree. I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is just an, that's an interesting thing. We've got, we've got some. Services in the US that do the same types of things.
Wildlife services with U S D A will go out and try to capture or, track down some of these problem animals that are causing [00:39:00] degradation in the west. And things like that, whether it be Mount Lion or bears or whatever. And you do some of that as well, right? You do some of that work where the government calls that for a problem bear that's a threat and you go out and you track that bear as well.
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. We do that sometimes, but mostly that is after a police an acute police decision that it's a danger for human life or danger of big values, like race horses threatened race horses or so, because if something happens to like a fenced racehorse and the bear make them panic and they die or get hurt, then the state have to pay the horse owner that because the state is the owner of the bears and wolves here.
That's interesting. Yeah. That's why the the police have the right to to use a certain paragraph based on those two [00:40:00] situation. And we get one, one or two of those missions and calls every year too. And then there then it's like a hunt on a healthy bear.
So with the same, but we are allowed to use cars or quads, or snowmobiles, whatever. I'd like those cars. Yeah. And there is no limit on to, to use only one or two dogs because that's another big difference. If I compare, if we go back to the formal question about the differences between the hunt we followed in Michigan compared to here we're, we are on the hunt, on the real hunt.
If we forget about the police jobs, we are allowed to we normally only hunt with one dog at a time. But there is a maximum of two dogs on the same bear. On the same day. So we cannot, even if we hunt with a pair of dogs, [00:41:00] we can't we can't take them out and put in two, two new dogs.
If there is a runner bear that's illegal. Wow. So when the dogs are finished, the hunt is over for that day. On that bear. Okay. We can try to find another bear. Then we have a new opportunity. And this this means this means that. We gotta have very self-dependent, self-sufficient dogs.
Because even if we sometimes start with both dogs, one might just get hurt or stay by some other good looking stuff. So it, it's not unusual that one of the dogs is left alone with the bear for the rest of of, of that hunt. So they need to be able to hunt alone. So do you normally have two, two dogs in your vehicle when you go out for the day to hunt and then you hold one dog back?
Can you feed [00:42:00] the ex if you turn one dog loose on a bear track? Yep. Are you, is it legal for you to go ahead and turn your other dog loose? To go in there and join the dog on the track at a later time? Yeah. Yeah. We can start with one and that's we do that every now and again. Just to save some steam on the second dog. Yeah. Yeah. So that's possible. But we normally yeah. Sometimes when I'm alone with friends and I'm the only one with dogs, yeah. It happens that I have only two with me, but I prefer to have at least a third and even a fourth one in case there is a kill at the end of the of the long or not a kill a shot and the bear continues despite the wound. So I always want to have a margin with one or two fresh dogs for possible wound search. Okay. At the end of the day. So if y you [00:43:00] and I are hunting together in Sweden and you bring two dogs and I bring two dogs, you're only allowed to have two dogs on that bear.
I You can't turn your two dogs loose and then I turn my two dogs loose. Nope. Nope. Two dogs per animal is the max. Yep. So we may get into a situation where we're hunting for the day and you run your dogs in the morning and then I run my dogs in the afternoon. Yeah. On another bear, on a second bear.
Sure. Yeah. Not on the same bear. Yeah. For that. Yeah. That's possible. Yeah. That's that's interesting for sure because it's really untraditional, non-traditional in the us. Yeah. I think it actually, I think it's frustrating sometimes if you have a big noise bore in front of you and you see that.
The dogs. They have no power left. Yeah. Then probably the bear is also a little bit tired and need a [00:44:00] rest. So I think sometimes I feel just, yeah, that's fair. Today the bear won the race. He outran our dogs and then we have to lift our cap and say, thanks for the show, Mr.
Bear. We'll be back tomorrow. We'll be back next week. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll continue this. Yeah. I think it's a bit of fair play. Uhhuh because if there was no limit and I had six dogs in my truck that bear won't get away. If I have six good dogs, they, the bear won't get away.
When you talk about good dogs, I want to, I'm curious, how would you describe the things that you, what sort of traits does a bear dog in Sweden need to be considered a good dog? What do you look for, pair some things, just tell me some things that you've [00:45:00] absolutely gotta have to be a good bear dog and be successful for you.
A cold nose is a good thing to have, but it's not it's not the most important thing. If they have an an okay cold nose like average, that's good enough. But. In your stable. It's good to have, really good to have at least one dog, even if it's an old retired dog.
It's good to have one dog who can mark. Yeah. Here he here is the scent. If we don't see the track this dog can strike or or just show us that here is the crossing over the road then we can take out the dogs with the, where it doesn't have that cold nose.
Cause then we know that we're putting the dogs on the right spot, the right starting spot. But more [00:46:00] important is the, that they have the they have the guts to follow a brown bear, which every now and again will. Try to catch the dog because sometimes they just stop hide and try to get the dog when the dog comes running.
Yeah. Yeah. And many dogs they hunt bear one time and then never, ever again follow a bear after that kind of that's normal for a dog. And nothing strange. Most of the dogs do that. If you take like a moose hunting dog or a deer hunting dog if they have the, a good drive, they will follow the first bear track that they ever feel.
But when they meet the bear and the bear gives them a lesson, then the bear interest is gone forever. So I'm looking for dogs that are, That have such a hunting drive [00:47:00] so that it overcomes the natural what do you call it? The natural fri edness. That they have for both the scent and for the picture of the bear.
So dogs will chase 'em the first time, but it takes a real dog to do it twice. Yeah. And to keep doing it. Yeah. That's, and they get beaten up. Not every not every year, but every, at least every second year I get one of my dogs beaten up by a bear and my dogs they are as eager as before the accident.
So that's really good. Good lines. We see that. We see that in Black Bear as well. You'll have a dog that this young dog and you just think, man, they're gonna do it. They're gonna do it. And then they get in there and they have a bad experience, and then they start asso. They get to the point where you can't put 'em on a track and make 'em take it, if they had, if they lacked the courage in the drive to, to pursue a [00:48:00] bear after one bad experience, you can't make 'em run it.
They may go in, they may shoot out there, I've, watch 'em on the garment. They may shoot out there a hundred yards, but you'll see 'em drifting off and circling around and before you know it, you're picking 'em up. A quarter mile, half a mile down the road, when the rest of the pack is just moving the bear on out.
I've seen many, I've seen many even plot towns with that behavior. You need to have the right individuals from the right lines that then you are starting to minimize the risk that this dog will hesitate for. For the bears. Yeah.
What other traits do you look for? Or do you like a dog that opens, barks on the track? Or do you like a dog? Yeah. Yeah. I like that because that's fun for the couns the shooters, they, yeah they don't like a quiet dog. I have no problem with a quiet dog because. Seems that there is a tendency [00:49:00] that the quiet dogs, they have better chances to have a bay up directly on the jump situation.
That the bird doesn't run the dog the dog is like ambushing quietly. And then the bear thing is, oh, it's too late to run now. Instead of if they hear the howling one minute before they, they get in contact. Yeah. I have a friend, he has a female plot also with bi Cajun lines, really good female and she's really hard to open.
She only opens when she sees the bear. And. Last last year I killed a bear for her solo on Solar job. And that was that was a Bay up directly at the first contact between the dog and the bear. Yeah. Yeah. But but I have no problem with with listen to the music also during the drive.[00:50:00]
No, no problem at all. I understand that. Yeah. Mike Coley's very big on what the race sounds like, I've got one of his dogs and I've got two of his dogs here, and one of 'em has a terrible voice on track. He just squeals and squalls and if he opens much at all. And he's a good hog dog.
But I asked Mike, I said he was actually had a lot of dogs hurt. Last time I was down there and I said, Hey, if you wanna keep him, he goes, I can't keep Diablo. I can't stand to listen to him if he opened. He didn't like the sound of him. I said it came from your stuff buddy.
Yeah. You're the one to blame for that. You oughta have to haunt it. Yeah. So you also do some research work, pair and the research stuff is, the way we were talking about it beforehand is pretty interesting. I know it, it's we do bear research and things like that, but you put some, a twist on it for me that I really wanted to talk to you about.
Yeah. Yeah. Fir [00:51:00] firstly, I'm not a researcher at, at all. Because I only have the opportunity to assist the researchers with with bear specialist dogs. Because they need them sometimes to find the research, the bears to research. Basically what where me and my friend comes in with our dogs is that if they need to find a bear we will, we help them find them with the dogs.
And we re we, we put one mag. We never put more than one dog because it, it's the sit the potential situation will be more tricky. You will soon understand. Because what it's all about is that We tell, we, we call them and say, no, we have a fresh bear tracker or a fresh bear poo.
And it's a it's a right size and it's a single bear. It's not with cubs also. And they say, okay we start the helicopter and make ourselves ready. It's a team [00:52:00] of a one veterinarian, one researcher with the tranquilizer arrow rifle, and then the pilot. And as soon as we hear that the bear or sea on our tracker system that the bear is jumped.
We call for them and they come with a helicopter track to track and find the dog. And hopefully they see the bear just in front of of the hunting dog. And then they go down a little bit to put a little bit of pressure on the bear, so they get a gap between the dog and the bear.
And then we try we ground personnel. We try with the car or quad or snowmobile to come in between the bear to cut the line and hook up the dog. And then they go down and shoot a tranquilizer arrow on the, they, then they pu push the bear out on an open space, like a moor or a cutting area or whatever, and tranquilize it.
And then [00:53:00] they put a g p s color and takes 1000 measurements o on the bear and take notes. So it's, it looks like a a mash unit there when they work with the bear thoroughly. And then the bear is given a wake up shot and we leave the bear, to wake up. And then this bear is now a new member of the Bear research Scandinavian Bear research project. So probably next year. When a PhD student is writing on hi, his his examination document probably a biology student. He will, through this he can apply to get access to these 50 60 G p s marked bears in this in this region.
So every time once to make a simple, once a year, they remark all the bears with the helicopter. So [00:54:00] they track them with their own system the, on the, through the color of the bear. They track them from the helicopter go down. Find them, go down and tranquilizer and then change the battery in the tracker system.
Yeah. And at the same time, this researcher, they follow, comes with a car and they take samples for their study and so on on the body. And they can, yeah, take blood samples and poo samples and skin samples and everything. And then many of those projects are really interesting projects because it's based on the bears physi, phy biology physiology.
And we, they try to find. Conclusions that have bearing on human medicine. Like how come that a bear sleeps six to seven months still in his den, wakes up and it's a normal day for them? Yeah. Okay. A [00:55:00] little bit hungry, but people will get osteoporosis. And a lot of other bad stuff from being so this is, they're trying to find find out research which can be implemented in human medicine.
That's interesting. For sure. So they're using the information they're gathering from wildlife, not only to manage wildlife, but also try to find answers for medicines for human beings. Yeah. And it, it feels good to, to be able, as a hunter to help in such a such a a situation and project. Yeah.
Yeah. It's an honor actually. It's an honor to be a able to assist on this. So when you talk about stuff like that per, I just, I can't help but think about all of the values that hunters add to our societies and our cultures. Everything from [00:56:00] the money we spend for wildlife management to projects like you're talking about right now, and to remove the houseman from.
The society, how difficult would it be for your bear research teams to collect this data if there weren't people like you with trained dogs and the knowledge to use those dogs to go out of here and catch bears for them? How difficult would that be? I it used to be very difficult. And it's getting more and more difficult because 10, 15 years ago, we had more winter.
In the springtime, we had more snow on the ground in this area than we have the normally the last 10 years or so. So earlier they just flighted with a helicopter to find fresh tracks. And that's not good for the for the budget. And it's not good for the environment [00:57:00] either to just research from a helicopter.
Instead, now we find the bears for them, and we serve the bears on a silver plate. So they just have, just to go up, track the dog, go down and tranquilize. We minimize the helicopter time for them. Yeah. So they would be able to do it without us, but but to some real costs in both financial costs and environmental costs.
And when you're doing these research projects, you're not, your goal is not to have the dog make contact with the bear, right? No. You want to catch your dogs before they make contact with the bear. Yeah. Yeah. But there is no problem if they jump the bear and the bear base or ju just run if the bear run and outrun the dog, that's the perfect situation.
Then they already have a good gap, like a three minutes gap between the bear and the, I've got some, I've got some dogs that'll fit your [00:58:00] program. Slow. Slow. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. It's that's not a big disadvantage. It could even be an advantage with the slow door, but they have to be, they have to be quick enough to jump the bear.
Otherwise, the researcher won't find the bear from the air. Yeah. Yeah. Bear what's the, Best hunt you've ever been on that, just a hunt that sticks out in your mind that's memorable, out there hunting with your hounds. It could be a recovery or a research or even a, just a hunting story, what is it about hunting that you like so much?
And why or what particular hunt or event do you recall that was just like, yes, this is why I do it? I think it's important for us to share those stories, and to talk about why we do what we do. That's a tricky question. I don't have a top three list. I think I have a top 20 list of situations that I, there we go.
Really? [00:59:00] Really nice to remember. We, one time we had to call for the rescue helicopter, far out in the mountains to they had to pick up a guy who was who was bitten and torn by a bear. Another time, the bear just smashed the rifle from a friend who he sh he emptied his his magazine all rounds.
And after the last round, the bear stood up and charged him. So he had to run and he left his rifle and it was like a closed, it was like 20 20 feet between them only. See, the bear was really by the guy there. Yeah. But he just ran the the bear was not Damaged. So I, I think that's why he could outrun this bear on the short distance.
He just ran from there. And then when we went back and found the bear and killed it, the wounded bear the bear had trashed his rifle into three [01:00:00] parts. No kidding. Yeah. He's I'm gonna tear this thing apart. You've heard the joke about, you know how to select hunting buddies, right?
Have you ever heard this joke? Nope. Yeah. You don't. It's like you don't need to hunt with people that can outrun you. When you go bear hunting, you always want hunt with somebody that's slower than you. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. I'm getting to the point where I'm that slow fat guy.
I didn't used to be, but I'm getting slower. So now I've, now that's why I hunt with Mike Coley. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I can outrun Mike. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. No I try to keep as fit as I can to be able to run quick. Absolutely. And anyway, I would mention one when you ask that tricky question about favorite or really rememberable moments.
I think the first time I harvested a really nice bear and also the first time I did it [01:01:00] on a ground bay up for my own dogs. That was really nice. We we, I were up far. You just don't forget. You don't forget those. No. Those were landmarks. Actually, I kept that bear taxidermied on two feet.
And I'm a tall guy, but this bear is taller than me when I'm standing on my two feet next to him. So it was a for almost a 500 pounder male. Wow. So the dogs bathe after a nice drive, good work, good starting school book, starting of the two dogs. They eventually bathe him after one one or two hours drive fourth and back.
Some of the shooters saw the bear got a glance of the bear and the dogs. It was really nice experience for most of the hunters that were there. And then after a while, there was a bay up on, on the ground. So I [01:02:00] offered one of the experienced hunters to follow me to go there.
So we had a half an hour walk, quick walk almost running to the place. And then when we came there, I said, okay, now let's breathe, let's take it easy. So I offer you the chance, I will follow right behind you but you get the chance. And if you blow this chance I will take the second chance.
Okay. Yeah, greed. And we had a really nice stalk. We were in on yeah, 20 feet. We heard the bear breathing and everything, and the dogs were crazy. Ya y ya y. But suddenly the wind spinned and the bear broke up and left. But after 30 seconds drive stopped again in the densest jungle, you could ever, of course, imagine.
Yeah, always. And then he looked at me, okay, that was my turn. Now it's your turn. So I got the opportunity. So I [01:03:00] stalked slowly and I started to see one of the dogs their orange visibility vest. I saw them before I saw any, anything brown or black in there. And suddenly when I was up, I think it was like 15, between 15 and 20 feet away, suddenly the bear showed most of its body behind a small brush there.
So I, I could I could finish it there while the dogs were barking and everything was good. Yeah. One of the dogs was a little bit hurt, but it was only a scratch. On the shoulder. And then when we came up to the to the bear, We carefully, we went there and looked, okay, he's dead.
Then we saw that it was a really nice male bore. So that, that, that was a really memorable he was a toad. Yeah. Yeah. It was, he was not a monster, but it was a really nice animal and a really [01:04:00] nice experience together with the dogs. A real corporation between us and the dogs, which was a success in the end.
Can it be better? No. That's something that is lost so often when people that have never experienced what you just described, that cooperation between hunter and dog. We see a lot in bird dogs and we think about it in Labrador, and, but for some reason, a lot of times that experience is lost.
With Homan, when other people think about how we hunt they don't put value on the relationship and the teamwork between us and our dogs so many times. I can tell you when the adrenaline had gone down a little bit on me and we waited for the guys to come with a quad to to to pick up the bear.
I sat there hugging my dogs sat on the ground. The dogs sat next to me. And I can tell you there was a little [01:05:00] bit a small drip from my eye that came there. Yeah. It was a almost yeah, religious feeling there. It was real, really nice. That's also why I remember this so strongly.
Yeah. Yeah. It was o overwhelming. And especially with relation to the dogs Some kind I can imagine brothers in arms feeling, I've had bird dogs and I've had, the retrievers and trained those and but I never ever experienced that like the first time on when my retrievers would make their first retrieve, their first wild retrieve, it's like we've been training to do this and I don't know why, but when you raise that hound from a and then you see that they've got the drive and the courage and the commitment and all those things to go in there and face that kind of danger and r risks and willing to run themselves into the ground to accomplish the mission.[01:06:00]
For me, there is something very special about that. Yeah. When I see that level of just dedication and instincts and your genetic work has all come together it's just different, I guess maybe it is the risk, maybe it's the fact that a duck's not gonna a flog in attack your retriever, or put him in any real risk, like a bears a mountain lion or a hog, and yet here they go.
They're like warriors, yeah. And I admire 'em. Yeah. Yeah. Same here. So the most of the people that I know, but who didn't and are good hunters, and even good dogmen they don't realize how good and brave these dogs are until they follow me to the forest and we hunt with them.
Then afterwards they say, These dogs are amazing. I would never, ever imagine that even one dog [01:07:00] could do what both of your dogs did today. Yeah. They are so brave. They are strong. They are so dedicated. Yeah. That's and that's encouraging to hear. And I try to tell Mike that as o often that I can, that I have the opportunity to hunt with his dogs here because they, they make big success here.
Yeah. I tell people that when they say, okay, here comes the bear hunter. No, it's my dogs that are the bear hunters. I'm just following them. Yeah. I always tell people I'm the dumbest one in the pack. Yeah. Yeah. Same here. Same. Yeah. Worst hunter. Worst hunter. Absolutely. For sure. Pir I appreciate it, man.
It's been a real honor to have you on the podcast and have you share some of your experiences and stories from Sweden and I can't thank you enough for taking time to outta your day to talk to us. No, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. [01:08:00] Absolutely. There's no we will have to get together and if you're ever back in the United States, make sure you let me know and absolutely.
Where do you live? I live in southeast Indiana, so I live between Joe and Mike. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yep. But yeah I love to chase chase those plot dogs around. I get a lot of ribbon from it cause everybody wants to talk about walkers and things back here and dedicated plot.
People are, we're stubborn. Yeah. We're like our dogs. Per thank you very much. I appreciate it. And I wanna thank everybody for listening to this episode of the Hounds Man XP podcast. We're trying to do a little international flavor here with our show and let everybody know what it's like to hunt in other parts of the world.
The dogs are this the dogs aren't that much different, and the spirit of the hunter is that much is not that much different regardless of what part of this globe you're hunting in. And you can check out all of our merchandise [01:09:00] and join us on Patreon. You can access all of that stuff from ho hounds xp.com, our website.
Check us out there. We got tons of bonus material over on the Patreon side of. Side of things, so you need to check that out. Fair. Thanks again. Until next time, this is fair Chase.
