Show Notes
Join the Wing and Tail Boys This week as Chris sits with Dorge Huang to discuss the evolution of arrows, specifically carbon fiber arrows, the upcoming ATA show, and the intricacies of arrow materials.. They delve into the history of carbon fiber arrows, the advantages and disadvantages of different materials when compared to one another, and the manufacturing processes that affect performance and safety. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding materials in archery and the impact of design on arrow effectiveness. In this conversation, Dorge Huang discusses advanced techniques in arrow manufacturing, touching on processes such as cryogenic methods, extrusion, and spine-generation when manufacturing arrow shafts.
The conversation continues on to the importance of material selection, specifying that NOT ALL CARBON FIBER ARROWS ARE THE SAME. He explains how different grades of carbon fiber affect arrow performance and durability, emphasizing the engineering behind an arrow’s spine and the impact of various materials on structural integrity. The discussion also covers practical advice for selecting arrows and understanding their construction, drawing parallels with fishing rod technology.
Dorge and Chris progress into the intricacies of arrow construction, focusing on the durability and engineering behind different arrow types. They discuss the importance of material selection, environmental control during manufacturing, and how these factors affect performance. The conversation also touches on the best practices for beginners in archery, emphasizing the need for understanding equipment and making informed choices. The discussion wraps up with insights on how components can significantly influence arrow behavior and performance.
Show Transcript
Chris (00:01.166)
What's going on ladies and gentlemen, thanks for joining us here for another episode of Wing and Tail Outdoors. sorry, let me start that over. got the damn name wrong.
Dorge Huang (00:09.338)
Hahaha!
Chris (00:13.09)
How we doing, guys? Thanks for joining us here for another episode of the Wing and Tail Boys. Joining us today for the fourth episode of our Arrow Science series, have Dorch Wong. How you doing today, Dorch? I'm doing great. I don't know about over by you, but it has been freaking cold here in PA. It is like...
Dorge Huang (00:22.676)
You're doing quite well, how are you Chris?
Dorge Huang (00:31.324)
It's not that cold. Two days ago it was a lot colder. Today was where to go hunt, except I forgot I got podcast. So I didn't go. Today is actually quite comfortable. 30 degrees.
Chris (00:36.588)
Yeah.
Okay, it's been for us. It's been drastically dropping with like the next two or three days. Like the high is 17 degrees and the low is like eight. So it's going to yeah. Yeah, we got to.
Dorge Huang (00:49.652)
Oh, wow, you guys are going to get some cold ones. Yeah, we went through that two days ago. Now we're up. Today's 30 right now. So it's quite comfortable.
Chris (00:58.414)
Yeah, you sent your wins to us. That's what happened.
Dorge Huang (01:03.294)
Well right now, based on my meter, it's telling me I 2 mph wind which is perfect, a tiny of a sprinkle. That's it, feels like 12 with the wind chill. I'm good.
Chris (01:12.686)
Okay, what's the weather looking like tomorrow for you? You said you have a hunt tomorrow?
Dorge Huang (01:16.116)
It's going to be dropping two degrees more so probably I will go hunting. And then I'm going on Thursdays, ATA.
Chris (01:19.777)
Okay, awesome.
that's right, the ATA show is coming through.
Dorge Huang (01:25.97)
Yeah, Thursday to Saturday. I'm not going to be attending. Except for this year, I'm going to be attending. I'm going to do a lot of consulting and doing a lot of negotiations because a lot of customers are going to be there. So we're going to be meeting over meetings.
Chris (01:40.95)
Okay, so are you gonna have like your own tent set up? Can people come by and say hello or?
Dorge Huang (01:44.572)
No, to do. I've I've not do ATA for two years now because the ATA, in my personal opinion, is no longer, see in the old days, people would pay money to go ATA to sell to people. I would say around 2015, ATA become a place that I pay money to go there, except people come to my booth asking me to buy advertising.
Chris (01:48.609)
Okay.
Chris (02:08.216)
Really?
Dorge Huang (02:09.448)
So, and dealers, most dealers don't go to ATA, guess what? They send their friends to go to ATA to look, to get free stuff. So you're not really talking to dealers. I mean, few of the dealers showed up, but most dealers will come to see me. I can talk to them on the phone. Why do I need to go to ATA?
Chris (02:17.678)
I've heard that before.
Chris (02:26.412)
Right. What about, what about the, you heard of the great out, the great American outdoor show? that, okay. Do you come to the one in Pennsylvania?
Dorge Huang (02:30.984)
yes, I'm always doing that show.
Yes, I do that show since 2008. I'm the art section. I I'm always an old, I want to old guys in art section forever. I don't sell a lot in there. I mean, most of them I go there to educate customers, show them something they haven't seen. You have everything of mine there. So actually I enjoy the Pennsylvania show. A lot of my dealers actually, I'm gonna have two dealer classes in the Pennsylvania show. Dealer who want to become a certified trained dealer, go to that show to attend the class.
Chris (02:38.017)
Okay, awesome.
Chris (02:44.238)
All right, so I'm.
Dorge Huang (03:04.763)
And then after that, that will be a verbal exam and then a practical exam. If they pass all of them, they become a dealer, a startup-advising dealer.
Chris (03:12.792)
Gotcha. then, yeah, no, that's, that's cool. I was going to go into some specific, can, we can cover that another day. What I think is really cool is being able, cause I've now had, I've had the fortune of trying and using quite a few of your products over the last couple of years from arrows to the, to your arrows, your, your bump stop to, to a couple of other things, the titanium kit. And what I found is that I didn't really truly understand it until I had it in my hands.
And I was able to manipulate it physically feel that feel the difference in weight, see what it actually does. You know, so if not, if nothing else, if you guys, you know, listeners, if you're going to be at that show, I believe it's February 1st, right? That the weekend of February 1st, if you're at that show, head on over to the fire, knock tent, go, go on over, say hello, and check out some of those products that we've been talking about here on, on our Aero series.
Dorge Huang (03:43.944)
Yup.
Dorge Huang (03:49.332)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (03:56.552)
That's correct.
Chris (04:08.66)
I'm in a little bit of a tough, sticky situation because February 1st is actually the day of my wife's baby shower. So either I'm going to have to prioritize and not go at all. It's too, really.
Dorge Huang (04:17.031)
OG
Dorge Huang (04:23.098)
No, that's two weekend. It's not one weekend, it's two weekend. Yes, it's two weeks. It's actually a total of nine days, from Saturday to next Sunday.
Chris (04:33.198)
So the following Saturday, it's the first and the eighth.
Dorge Huang (04:36.69)
Yes, it was from the first to the tenth, not to the ninth.
Chris (04:42.784)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (04:44.2)
Yeah, you may not know that, but that's how it goes.
Chris (04:46.488)
Well, I know it now.
Dorge Huang (04:49.544)
Yeah, because it's 10 days, know. Most people come to my booth actually on weekdays. Tuesday and Wednesday is my best day because there's not so much people. And those are the time actually I have the best time because I was really able to explain to customers who really want to learn.
Chris (04:53.847)
Okay.
Chris (05:05.56)
Sure, you have the time to sit with everyone and talk. See, that's awesome. All these years we've been going to the outdoor show and my dad always made it so, like, I never cared to look it up because my dad and my brother always shared the dates with me. And I just assumed that it was one weekend. I didn't realize that it was the full.
Dorge Huang (05:07.988)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (05:19.122)
No, it's week two weekend. As a matter of fact, the Craig Mildred O'Doher Show is February 1st to February 9th. Exactly what you think.
Chris (05:24.849)
Okay, awesome. So maybe I'll talk to them. Maybe I can convince them to go to the...
Dorge Huang (05:27.348)
And to be fair with you, I told people you really want to enjoy the show, come to me on Super Bowl.
Chris (05:37.966)
Oh, well, because everyone's home watching the game. All right. All right. Well, then I should definitely be able to make it down then at least one of these days. So hopefully we can link up and, you know, we can hang out in person and have a little chat. I think that'd be cool. All right. So the topic for today's discussion is going to pick up where we left off in the last episode of our series. The last episode we talked about
Dorge Huang (05:40.281)
Exactly!
Dorge Huang (05:52.851)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (06:05.794)
kind of the history and the progression of arrows, right? Where did they start with bamboo arrows way back when? All the...
Dorge Huang (06:09.118)
All right.
Dorge Huang (06:13.048)
way back in ancient times, the beginning of arrows, then bullseeders, and then we move all the way. And then we sort of stopped at ACCs, or the Fumai Rejected. And I have not gone into detail of those. I think from that, become a springboard for the next. The ACC, I personally think is one of the best arrows ever made, and still is better than most, because it starts with the aluminum in the inside.
Chris (06:22.774)
Yes. Yep.
Chris (06:36.814)
Okay, and that's.
Dorge Huang (06:39.922)
and the carbon is wrapped over a very, very stable and straight and defined material.
Chris (06:47.374)
OK, and you're saying the aluminum is the straight and defined material? it creates this? OK. Sure, like a nice skeleton for the rest of the arrow, essentially. OK.
Dorge Huang (06:52.124)
Yes, where the carbon is wrapping on top. So you've got a very solid foundation.
Dorge Huang (06:58.484)
Yes, and then I personally think the worst arrow that have that for hunting is the full metal jacket which just the reverse.
Chris (07:06.808)
So, okay, so and the full metal jacket would be CCA carbon.
Dorge Huang (07:11.132)
No, you'll be the... Well, if you want to from the inside out, yes, it's CCA. The aluminum is on the outside. The reason that I personally do not like the arrow is that the aluminum takes dominance. That means when you pull the arrow, if you kinked it, that kinkness is that bend of the arrow is going to be part of the arrow permanence.
Chris (07:31.404)
Okay, and that's because the aluminum's on the outside? Okay, and whatever's... Okay, so whatever material is on the outside, that's what the properties of that material are, what's gonna dominate the arrow? True, okay. Okay.
Dorge Huang (07:34.408)
which is dominant. It's the largest one in diameter.
Dorge Huang (07:44.082)
because it's the largest in diameter.
Dorge Huang (07:49.298)
And not to mention if you use aluminum arrow, all the problem aluminum exists. Like you can't glue anything correctly because all aluminum are anodized and sealed. So there is no pores for the glue to grab. So you either use car make or whatever to sand the aluminum to break up it so that you can glue, otherwise you're not gonna glue on it. I mean, yeah, you can glue on it, but you fall off.
Chris (08:02.199)
Right.
Chris (08:11.884)
Right, they fall off eventually, which makes for a nice refletching job at least. Yeah.
Dorge Huang (08:15.91)
Right, but you fall too often, that's the problem. Even when you practice or shoot, you target and then they drop off. And not to mention in the old days, you can use double-sided tape which worked better, but then you can't really rely on it. Double-sided tape is pretty decent because you see the moment you clean the shaft with acetone, the double-sided tape will work quite well. Because it's not using the analyzing, the ion bonding ability of a double-sided tape, like the VHV, that's from 3M.
Chris (08:22.189)
Yeah.
Chris (08:33.591)
It takes right away.
Chris (08:40.918)
Okay, right. I never actually knew double-sided tape was used for veins. I've never heard of that before.
Dorge Huang (08:47.026)
Yeah, if you look at all the feathers, they are all double-sided.
Chris (08:51.598)
Okay. See, I used to use gateway feathers, but I still...
Dorge Huang (08:55.44)
Right, then you can use the bone-in platinum plus type glue. But then again, those require bonding surface. You do not have any on aluminum.
Chris (09:01.75)
Yes. Right. Which I've never, me personally, I've never shot aluminum arrows. By the time I started shooting compound bow, which is the only bow I've ever shot really, we were already using carbon. Like I said, I think it was in the last episode, I was shooting beam ins when I first started, when I first started hunting.
Dorge Huang (09:18.452)
Yep, you would be being in hunters or being in sports, that kind of deal. Now, let me stop you right there and talk about carbon. You know carbon for...
Chris (09:22.147)
Yep.
Chris (09:27.554)
Now, before we move on to full carbon, we talked about ACC, which is aluminum in the middle, a layer of carbon, and then a second layer of carbon on the outside, or more. Okay.
Dorge Huang (09:37.14)
or more, or multiple more. In the case of like the ACC ProHunders, the carbon core is a thing. The ACC ProHunder, they come with something as small as 450 all the way to 300, but to 290. That is simply how many layers of carbon you put on it to give you a number.
Chris (09:53.782)
Okay. Now, so we have the ACC, which is aluminum in the middle, carbon on the outside. And then we have the CCA, which is the carbon in the middle, aluminum on the outside. Right. Is there a type of, has anyone ever made an arrow where it's carbon, aluminum, carbon? So a CAC? Okay.
Dorge Huang (10:04.02)
Cool Carbon and now let me know on the website.
Dorge Huang (10:13.618)
I don't see the benefit. Because see the only reason the aluminum is inside is that you actually make the core so you the carbon over it. The other one is that you can put the carbon, extrude the carbon inside the aluminum. This is the footwear jacket is. The footwear jacket is technically an extruded aluminum with carbon extrude with aluminum shell and then carbon go into it and then pull out. So if you do say CAC, then...
Chris (10:23.213)
Okay.
Chris (10:37.112)
Gotcha.
Dorge Huang (10:43.444)
the process will become too expensive and then I don't see the benefit. And the reason why, because you can't control your ID that consistently and the OD is really no point. Unless you want to build something like the full leather jacket and then you wrap one of the carbon over it to take away the memory. Yeah, I see the possibility, but the cost is going to be so much more because most of those era come out of Eastern, which is a one step process. It comes out in one shot.
Chris (10:47.99)
Okay, no reason old benefit.
Dorge Huang (11:12.958)
continuously.
Chris (11:14.83)
Okay, and then what they just cut it down to size or whatever? Gotcha.
Dorge Huang (11:16.756)
Correct. Just like when you're just presenting a thing, if you really want a 204, I personally think that Eastern Access is one of the best arrows out there for the price.
Chris (11:26.222)
Right. I shot the Easton Axis, but I was shooting the 4mm for a while, which are the 1.66s, I guess.
Dorge Huang (11:32.966)
No, that actually that's called the injection. It's not the access. The 40 millimeter is considered the injection series. The access series start with the four millimeters and five millimeter and five millimeter only, which is a 204. The whole process of making the access, from my understanding, is like 28 different carbon fiber and other material. They control and weave them together, just like a fabric process.
and they use the baking, the heating, the whole nine yard. One shot and then it comes out. Then they cut them to whatever length.
Chris (12:04.942)
So you mean to tell me that a carbon arrow isn't just carbon?
Dorge Huang (12:12.3)
Well, this is where everybody make a mistake. Just like when you buy a fishing rod, say carbon. What's the difference between say a $40 carbon arrow, a carbon rod, a carbon fishing rod and say, one of the more expensive one, carbon, like from Japan, one of the Megabass rods or Gamakasu rods. They're carbon.
Chris (12:15.629)
Yeah.
Chris (12:31.47)
To be honest with you, who doesn't really have any background information would probably just say the brand name. What's the difference between the brand name? Right.
Dorge Huang (12:41.236)
No, that's a big difference. First of all, two things dictate how good a carbon fiber is. One is modulus. That means what kind of carbon fiber it is. Like in the fishing world, the IM5, IM4, IM6, IM7, IM8. And some people will now call it a modulus. Your 24 million module, your 32, your 38, your, then all the way to 84 million module. But then,
you're talking the grade of the carbon, which is your V4000, 5000, all the way to 12,000. Just so you know, you can't buy anything over 9,000 without going through hell. Because in my understanding, you said to the point that back in the early 2000 and the Japanese and Koreans are told not to sell the Chinese anything over 800. Because those are used for airplanes like your
Chris (13:20.045)
What is that?
Dorge Huang (13:37.876)
your Airbus, your Boeing, your Kodak 919, your fighter jets, those airplanes are all carbon fiber.
Chris (13:46.103)
Okay.
They need the lightweight, they need the structure, they need it when they need it.
Dorge Huang (13:52.37)
They need a strength. Right. And other things that people don't understand, the real carbon fiber are sell by the yacht.
Chris (14:00.579)
Yes.
Dorge Huang (14:01.566)
Not by the pound.
Chris (14:04.238)
Because there's the, are you talking like square yards, the sheets of square yards? Okay, okay.
Dorge Huang (14:04.542)
So.
Yes, on sheets. And then the higher the quality, the thinner it gets.
Chris (14:14.04)
Yeah.
Dorge Huang (14:15.56)
That means that if you want, let me just think, don't be ridiculous. You want an arrow with one millimeter thick.
Just for reference, okay? The thickness of every one millimeter. The highest quality fiber will be the 1K, I mean, we're not talking weave yet, we're just talking carbon fiber. Because weave is a whole different animal on top of it. Right, I mean, that's reason I want to step into multiple stages so you understand it's not that simple. We're talking carbon fiber. As you got the carbon fiber itself to be thinner, that means the materials are more straight, more compact.
Chris (14:25.634)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (14:36.504)
Yeah, we're gonna get there.
Dorge Huang (14:53.618)
and the resin gratings be greater and they're more lightweight. They're stronger, but use a lot more because they're thinner and they are sell by the yard. So assuming that you've got a say carbon fiber that's 0.2 millimeter and you've got one. So you need five layers. And if you've got a carbon fiber that's 0.5 millimeter, you need two. So of course the...
Chris (15:00.226)
Right. Okay.
Dorge Huang (15:20.264)
The one that read five layer is going to use two and half times more material than the two layers.
Now the killer, anytime you step down in size, you double in price.
Chris (15:26.648)
That's, yeah.
Chris (15:32.588)
Yeah. Yeah. I've actually, I've had the dis fortune of experiencing that, you and I have talked about some things that I'm looking to maybe build products of some sort. And I've been kind of scouring the internet, trying to find somewhere to get the material and the better the material, I mean, and the price jump is like, it's not even, it's, bigger than you would think. Like just going from one quality of carbon fiber to the next, I'm going from like,
$30 for 20 inches to like $170 for 20 inches. It's like, it's not even.
Dorge Huang (16:07.196)
Right, we are talking using one factor, which is carbon fiber material. We are not talking, remember when the arrow is finished, that's carbon fiber material. That's design approach. That's combination of material.
Chris (16:13.357)
Right.
Chris (16:23.214)
Yeah. And that, think that, I mean, we're touching on it a little bit, but I think that's the structure of the arrows that we want to touch on at the end of the episode here. Okay.
Dorge Huang (16:33.076)
Correct, correct. That's the reason that, know, so people don't understand just because you say, I need a five millimeter arrow. How many people make five millimeter arrow? At this moment, I can count with 10 fingers. And they're not all the same. And anybody, I mean, I make three of them already. The one I make for Exodus is called NIS. That's nothing more than a...
Chris (16:47.885)
Really.
Dorge Huang (17:01.884)
half extruded and then with a carbon with, I mean, it's like a two layers of carbon with extruder on the outside. I mean, it's not the greatest error out there, but it meet the price point. It's just like saying pretty much same as the deer crossing 204. The lightest of course right now in the market supposedly, I think the Eastern new 204 is gonna pretty much match the Black Eagle original rampage.
Chris (17:12.846)
Sure.
Chris (17:28.086)
OK, you mean light as in GPI?
Dorge Huang (17:32.419)
I mean, you can mix things, just like the Arrow Weave 204 Lite. That really did everything, but you still maintained the structural integrity. See, this is where the problem with carbon material. It is not a homogeneous material. When you mix and match the material, and on top of the material, it's not the material alone, because they're carbon fiber sheets. Okay, then you can buy different grades. Then you can buy different.
Chris (17:42.199)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (18:00.084)
thickness. Then you can buy different resin embedding. Then you can buy different curing rate, different baking rate. I mean, it does no end to it.
Chris (18:01.016)
Great thickness, yeah.
Chris (18:06.829)
And the list goes on and on. Right. So let's take a, let's, let's, let's put a pause on that. Cause I think we're getting ahead of ourselves just a little bit. Let's, let's backtrack here for a minute and let's talk about the history of carbon fiber. Now, I don't know. Do you want to talk about the history of carbon fiber as a material or the history? Okay. Okay. Right.
Dorge Huang (18:23.666)
Yes!
Dorge Huang (18:28.478)
That's the material used in fishing and Otherwise, there's no end to it. I will limit it to the carbon fiber. See, people may not understand. Carbon fiber, the step before carbon fiber is fiberglass.
Chris (18:42.53)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (18:43.572)
And carbon fiber glass is actually a very good material. That is the reason today we still use that a lot in like your bow fishing arrow and also in your planks, your planks in your bow. Because its ability to store and relax energy is very good. And carbon fiber do much better. The problem is that carbon fiber until I would say about 2022, it is not a good material for
Chris (18:56.225)
Okay?
Chris (19:00.824)
Gotcha.
Dorge Huang (19:12.712)
both plans. But it is now.
Chris (19:14.51)
When you say bow planks, what are you referring to? I've never heard the limbs. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So then they've been using them for the last 15 years without really understanding them or have they been fiberglass up until now?
Dorge Huang (19:17.608)
The limbs.
Recording the pranks.
Dorge Huang (19:28.273)
No, they never did. I mean, the only people that use carbon fiber inside the limbs are Hoyt. Hoyt only use it in two layers, if I'm understanding, all the rest is fiberglass.
Chris (19:34.316)
Okay, and we'll.
Chris (19:39.052)
Gotcha. Okay. All right, now I'm with you.
Dorge Huang (19:41.524)
Now remember how expensive is a Hoy of HD 1000 limbs? You pay $600 for a set of limbs.
Chris (19:47.886)
Yeah, that reminds me, that reminds me of my Benelli. I have a Benelli shotgun and I wanted to go, I wanted to get a rifled barrel for it. The rifled barrel on it costs like $700. I was like, I can literally, I can literally go buy two rifles.
Dorge Huang (19:59.23)
That's all.
Dorge Huang (20:02.78)
Well, the same thing, remember the titanium red carbon barrel.
Chris (20:07.647)
No, I've never heard of that.
Dorge Huang (20:09.396)
Oh, they are. You're going to pay two grand for it. But you know what? You don't shoot ten shots with it. 5.5 % not meant for multiple shots.
Chris (20:11.918)
That's insane.
No. No.
Right. Okay. Okay. So carbon fiber as it relates to hunting and fishing, 2022 you said, is when they kind of came, they finally got it to a point where they could use it and
Dorge Huang (20:35.184)
I personally believe that we have reached a point, the price with the performance ratio, we can finally use carbon fiber planks on both.
Chris (20:42.988)
Okay. And is there anyone doing that right now? Like you said Hoyt, but is there anybody else?
Dorge Huang (20:47.988)
Hoard TV for a long time, but it's not pure carbon fiber. But at the same time, the design has finally reached the point it can be used. Just like you don't use an old design of an arrow and use carbon fiber as a replacement and expect better performance. You need to understand how the material going to behave and optimize the material for the performance you want to do. That's where the most people screwed up.
Chris (20:50.506)
not pure carbon fiber. Has anyone?
Okay?
Chris (21:08.878)
Right. Like we talked about, like we talked about in the last episode, depending on your setup, an aluminum arrow might be the better arrow for you to use or a 300 or a 204 or a carbon fiber, whatever the case is.
Dorge Huang (21:17.946)
Absolutely and that's where...
Dorge Huang (21:23.796)
Yeah, I mean, just like you're very simple on carbon fiber arrow. Most people would love to shoot the thin Fumero jacket if you shoot a recurve, but that sucked in Highlander Compound Bow. And I will go into that later when we go into bow design and so on. But what are this episode? But as far as carbon fiber is concerned, you need to understand just before somebody claim it's 99.8 % graphite. It's just telling you the material. It didn't tell you the approach.
Chris (21:34.99)
Okay.
Chris (21:39.267)
Gotcha.
Chris (21:54.306)
Right. It's similar to steel, right? When you go and buy a tool that's made out of steel, I mean, there's hundreds of different grades of steel, aren't there?
Dorge Huang (22:02.94)
And then the process, let me just like the identical steel. If you went with say, cryogenic or heat treat or an ODIB, it's the same material, but the treatment to it changed. Now the result is totally different story.
Chris (22:15.948)
Right. Right. That's actually the Benelli barrels cryo dipped. It's like frozen to like negative whatever degree Celsius or some nonsense.
Dorge Huang (22:25.172)
for about two or three days so that they force the vibration of the molecule so that it can bind better. mean, it's similar to thing with carbon fiber, an extruded carbon fiber process like what Beeman did is one of the best arrows for performance but sucked in safety.
Chris (22:40.302)
Okay? Gotcha. That's right, because they shattered. They splintered when they break.
Dorge Huang (22:46.012)
When you hit it, it splintered catastrophically to the point that you hurt yourself and you may not be recoverable.
Chris (22:53.26)
Yeah. Like I told you back in the day, my brother, my brother and I, went to a 3d shoot with our dad and he was shooting at one of like the novelty shots. You know, they had these gophers that would go up and then drop down and he went to go take a shot. We just heard a big pop and he looked down his hands bleeding and luckily it was just one thin long shark that went into his hand, like right between his thumb and his pointer, you know, but ever since then I always, I always, every few shots I'm always checking my, my arrows to see if there's a
cracking them and stuff, but the carbon of today, don't splinter like that anymore.
Dorge Huang (23:29.359)
No, let's put it back. approach of the step manufacturing approach is not used by most. It can be used as long as you use the right way to prevent it. Just like, for example, like you do a circular wrap over it, or you do a weave carbon over the extrusion. So if anything happened, the carbon will force it to break evenly.
Chris (23:35.586)
Okay.
Chris (23:40.706)
Gotcha. Which would be.
Chris (23:46.914)
Okay.
Chris (23:50.402)
Gotcha. Okay.
Dorge Huang (23:54.62)
so the splinter will be very short.
Chris (23:54.828)
Okay. Okay. I got you. I'm with you now.
Dorge Huang (23:59.092)
But then you also think about it like when go tip and vapor, when go tip pop vapor, I'm looking the four layer, the five layer vapor. The process actually, know, Eastern and Beeman go extrusion and other words, go with the way we actually treat metal when they build carbon. Extrusion process, straightness and so on, cut in size. But go tip is the first one who used the fishing rod golf club approach.
You got a mandrel, you wrap the carbon, multiple layer of carbon over it. And then of course, instead of laying them straight, you lay them the carbon fiber, say like five degree to the left, and then next level five degree to the right, next one 15 degree to the right, and 15 to the left. And then finally, the another 15 degree, like a five layer one. So theoretically, the first layer will cancel the second layer, the third layer will compensate the second layer and so on and so on.
So when you break, you break at an even point. So you will not spur because the first layer will sort of like return the second layer of spurring because they are opposite angle of the carbon fiber.
Chris (25:04.013)
Okay.
Chris (25:07.406)
Alright, that makes sense.
Dorge Huang (25:08.318)
So you can go minimum three layer as much as five, okay? And then that is based on say, 0.15 millimeter material. Of course you can go lower. That approach is worked very well because that's what GoTip did. And so is the rest of the carbon, the rest of the world's aeros company. Because the process is very simple. It's the same process they use in golf club, they use efficient run. And because it's it's straight.
So you just take the different pieces you want, you start it, then you take it to the mandrel, you put on the press and you push. Voila, you got a tube on the mandrel. Then you throw it into the oven, or in some cases, better stuff, you wrap the whole thing in a super tight wrap to maintain the structure. Then you throw it into the oven. Then you're going through a grinder, you grind the outside out. And then in the case of Go-Tip and most other companies,
Chris (25:47.48)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (26:06.6)
you throw the whole thing into a cryogenic chamber to shrink the inner tube. So the the mantle will shrink and then the air will come right off. And most people will can't wait, they will grab a hydraulic press and grab the mantle and then pull it right off. Now this is where a lot of problem, now you got a lot of problem with that approach. Which is why when you look at a lot of company, especially like Element, some of the Victory,
Chris (26:15.192)
Gotcha.
Chris (26:22.446)
Sounds aggressive.
Dorge Huang (26:34.792)
you notice that you have to frisky cut both ends.
Chris (26:38.67)
You're saying when you're building an arrow, want to cut a little bit off of each end?
Dorge Huang (26:41.996)
Right, because when you hold the arrow and you pull, some resin is not totally settled. When you pull, you compress it. Now the hole becomes bigger. On the other end, since I'm pulling it in, the hole becomes smaller.
Chris (26:56.238)
So one side will shrink a little bit and the other side will expand a little bit. Okay.
Dorge Huang (26:59.484)
While the middle is the same size, but the case of the gold tip and finer approach, because I learned it from Marvin, I actually cryogenically shrink my tube to take time. Because most people don't want to take the mean because every mentor you use, have to run through the whole process before you go back to production. So if you say, imagine you're making a thousand arrows an hour and you have four steps, you need four thousand.
Chris (27:11.406)
Okay.
Chris (27:24.716)
Yeah, wow. Now let me...
Dorge Huang (27:27.206)
Of course you know if you're a company, you don't have 4,000. Yeah, 40,000.
Chris (27:30.892)
Right. mean, that's yeah, they got, they got, they have plenty. now in the, in, in the, a situation where somebody needs to cut off both ends, is there like a general rule of thumb, like cut three millimeters off, off each end or.
Dorge Huang (27:45.492)
No, this is the best thing. think Tim Killingham did a very good demo. You put the arrow on a spinner and you spin it. One side wobble more, the other wobble less. You cut more on one side and less on one side. Or not cut. But of course you need to measure the OD and ID to make sure they're indeed good. See that's the reason people don't understand. The better the material, the less the work you need to do. It's all part of the build. is not, I mean, remember we're talking, this is build. This is not about carbon arrow manufacturing process.
Chris (27:56.642)
Okay.
Chris (28:07.672)
Sure. Yeah.
Dorge Huang (28:15.796)
Can you make it better? Yes, I mean, in some cases, like when I first started, I make my arrow 35. Then I go ahead and cut, yes, and then cut inch and a half on both sides. So I got a cleaner 32. And then in some cases, people will make use of mental approach. They end up, their arrow only come in 30, because if they build it in 32, they want to cut one inch at off, you end up with 30.
Chris (28:22.062)
35 inches.
Okay. Right.
Chris (28:38.614)
Right. Okay. And that's
Dorge Huang (28:40.436)
I mean, Eastland can make you a 200 feet arrow with no problem.
Chris (28:44.11)
Right, I was gonna say, because that's really unfortunate for people who have a longer draw length, a 31, 32, 33 inch draw length, guys. Sometimes those 30 inch arrows are like a little hairy on the length. You know, when I draw my bow back and I can see the tip of the broadhead behind my fingers, I'm not always crazy about that. I like it for it to be just a little out front, personally. Yes.
Dorge Huang (28:58.748)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (29:08.976)
Now let's go back to material. Now we talk about carbon fiber, we're talking different grades.
Chris (29:13.974)
Is there anything else that we want to touch on with the history of carbon fiber before we move on to the? Okay, gotcha. Okay.
Dorge Huang (29:16.966)
Now I'm actually going into the history of carbon fiber because the different grade, remember, just because I'm saying this, I am six. I'm just telling you the carbon fiber in it is I am something like a 32 millimeter module.
So what happened to the rest of the material? It is not, know, I'm old material is 100 % carbon. You got Ransom, right? But just because I use 100 % carbon do not mean I can have fiberglass in it.
Chris (29:39.96)
Okay.
Sure.
Chris (29:49.633)
Right.
Dorge Huang (29:50.449)
I can have mix it with bar on.
Chris (29:53.452)
Okay. And each of those things would change everything, everything about the arrow. Now, now the, when we say behavior, are we going back to the stuff we talked about in the first, in the first episode, the five, the five motions of the arrow? Okay. Okay.
Dorge Huang (29:56.232)
The behavior. The behavior of that too.
Dorge Huang (30:07.218)
the individual motion of the arrow exactly. So that will impact the motion. They will focus on one or the other. Just like when you look into a multi-layer straight carbon fiber, you guarantee a helix or compound helix shaft.
Because every single layer is bigger than the layer underneath it. And how do you guarantee the lower one, the upper one will cancel the lower one? You can't. So in other words, the first one and second one, end up with the moment one thick is thicker than the other or more powerful than the other, you force the arrow to poke based on the thicker one. But when you have three or four of them, where's the torque side?
Chris (30:26.094)
Okay, why is that?
Dorge Huang (30:56.018)
You have no idea. Because one support to cancel the other, cancel, cancel, cancel. But whatever the left over is and the left over plus left over plus left over. So what do you really got?
Chris (30:56.076)
Love.
Chris (31:06.146)
Mm-hmm. A lot of I don't know.
Dorge Huang (31:10.234)
Exactly. Because originally that's what happened until I found out, wait a minute, it's the same as fishing rod. We cannot manufacture, engineer a spine generally. And I got mad with that because I think, wait a minute, this is engineered. What can you do exactly? I'm going to make this stuff. So you're going to do exactly what I tell you to do. No, you don't.
Chris (31:30.926)
No. Plans don't always, and I'm sure it frustrates you just as much as does me, but.
Dorge Huang (31:41.972)
made it because I actually I found two US pattern in 2008 and 2009 on arrow in arrow weave 2007-2008 on the arrow weave so I actually construct the spine
Chris (31:55.786)
Okay, how do you do that? Or we not want to give away trade secrets?
Dorge Huang (32:00.888)
No, I mean, it's a pattern. There's nothing to give away. You can read that. What happened is that I'm doing, this is where I want to put that a little bit behind and talk about the next material. You can see how the straight line, the linear carbon fiber with different direction would do. You end up with torsion and torque in the shaft. But you take away a lot of problems. You take away the unknown. You give the arrow more safety. You give the arrow a batch consistency because as you make them all.
Chris (32:04.098)
Okay.
Chris (32:10.126)
Okay.
Chris (32:19.598)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (32:30.452)
The arrow usually behave the same as on the quing weight is about the same because the material use the same but see this is downside. See if you use a high resin material and you squeeze it and bake it, do you know what's left in it and how they bond together? See, that's where the problem is. That's reason most arrow when you see I got a, I think I got about the one or three hundred spine. What's acceptable?
What does that mean?
Chris (33:01.774)
What 300 spine isn't it can't? Can't they be like isn't there a range like if it's rated at 300 it might be like 290 it could be 310.
Dorge Huang (33:03.368)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (33:11.476)
is usually plus or minus 15 percent. So you think about it, 300 plus or minus 15 percent.
Chris (33:13.934)
15, okay.
Dorge Huang (33:21.108)
The number is pretty big!
Chris (33:23.182)
I mean, that's a 30-pine rating swing. It becomes a 30-point swing.
Dorge Huang (33:31.988)
No! 15 % of 300 is 450.
Chris (33:34.926)
Oh 50 % I gotcha, okay. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's so you're not really you're not really getting a 300 spine when you buy a 300 spine then.
Dorge Huang (33:38.516)
No.
Dorge Huang (33:46.804)
Yes, that's also the thickness of the manufacturing process. That's the reason people say, oh, I got a Beeman 300. It's so much better than the Easton 300. And the Goldtip 300 is better.
Remember, the spine number you got in most of the cases is static, not dynamic.
Chris (34:08.248)
bright okay
Dorge Huang (34:10.484)
How the carbon fiber lay and how the resin react with the carbon fiber cause the laziness or activeness of the carbon fiber. That means when you lay a weight of 300 on it, a weight of 1.94 pounds, it drops 300. That's static. So when you dynamically load it and unload it, the reaction time of the carbon fiber construction becomes more important, isn't it?
Chris (34:24.812)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Chris (34:36.493)
for sure. The more energy that's being...
Dorge Huang (34:39.612)
No, no, no, the energy is the same. It's the accept and react, the time.
Chris (34:46.712)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (34:47.924)
I think this is another thing based on carbon fiber construction, just like fishing rod. You told them it's a 30 pound rod. The tip speed is based on what the modulus and the construction of the fishing rod is. So you've got a high modulation will give you a higher performance. That means the thing is gonna react faster and come back faster and recover faster. Although it's the same poundage, just like a 300 spine fiberglass arrow and a 300 spine, say,
Chris (35:09.58)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (35:16.744)
homogeneous carbon fiber, we're talking about same as Steven. The carbon arrow 90 % will perform better because it's going to accept that, absorb and translate the energy into the fight faster and recover faster so that it doesn't lose so much energy in the process of flex and also time.
Chris (35:31.148)
Okay, right.
Chris (35:36.942)
I gotcha. Which then makes sense as to why they use the better carbon fiber in the more expensive stuff.
Dorge Huang (35:44.435)
Mm-hmm.
Right, but at the same time, just because the material is more expensive. See, I learned this stuff back in 1977 when I bought the first carbon fiber Kevlar fishing rod on Daiwa. One drop is done.
Chris (36:03.256)
What if you drop the rod?
Dorge Huang (36:05.278)
Correct. I put the rod on the rail and the wind blows the 5-wing rod go on the floor. Then I got the next fish hook up.
Chris (36:12.3)
But it didn't even break on the fall. broke your heart when you went to go set the hook. That's terrible. man.
Dorge Huang (36:13.906)
Yep, that's the end of the road.
Dorge Huang (36:20.046)
Exactly. I mean, it's like, my God, what just happened? Then that's the time. mean, I think I saved the whole summer for this fishing rod. We're talking McDonald every tricking day for working McDonald for the two months and finally got this. And the first thing go out. I will really enjoy how good it throws, casts beautiful settle. Then I lead it on the rail and then a wind blow up. no big deal.
Chris (36:46.882)
That's like one of those things you look at yourself and you're like, I can't take this back, but that was so dumb. It's like, know, like I.
Dorge Huang (36:53.649)
No, I did take it back because that's what I learned because I was one of the more aggressive fishermen in Hong Kong and know most of the people, including the guys from Daiwa. I remember that time, Pou Kee was their Hong Kong, their wholesaler for them. They are the rep for Daiwa in Hong Kong. And they happened to be there. mean, back then, my English is not as good.
Chris (37:12.524)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (37:21.106)
I tried it my best, my Japanese works. So I talked with engineer the next time and we discussed it and they're kind enough to send me a new one and tell me what not to do. But then I learned, they don't drop carbon fiber with Kepler because the Kepler and carbon don't bond well. When you do sideways sharp, you separate the layers. The same thing with carbon fiber in today, in some place like that is, remember the carbon force from PSE? They also have carbon fiber multiple layers with a ramp on it.
Chris (37:27.692)
Okay. Gotcha. Don't drop this one.
Chris (37:38.721)
Okay.
Chris (37:46.318)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (37:50.856)
those are resin based. In other words, if you put acetone on it, you literally can peel layer after layer. All the newer arrows are epoxy systems, so the moment you set is permanent.
Chris (38:04.482)
PSA used to make arrows? I didn't know that.
Dorge Huang (38:06.204)
Yeah, common force. A lot of people don't recognize a lot of things. The common force is a brand of PSD used. It licensed a lot of arrows. mean, PSD's VAD is licensed from, of course, from Victory. PSD's, I forgot what, the Hunter series is actually a rebadged go tip. Actually, I remember when the first time a PSD rep showed me the arrow, I looked at the inside and I said, hey, that's a mandrel. It's very close to a tip.
Chris (38:11.148)
Okay.
Chris (38:25.036)
Really? Okay. That's cool stuff.
Dorge Huang (38:36.136)
The guy look at me, it is indeed a repatch.
Chris (38:38.67)
Hahaha
Chris (38:43.498)
You got an eye for this stuff, man. When you got it, you got it, you know?
Dorge Huang (38:46.516)
So you know if you understand what you're looking for and you know what each individual process is not that difficult anymore.
Chris (38:53.354)
Okay. And this is all, if you, if you were to go, if you were to walk into a store, right. And let's say, let's say you woke up tomorrow, you know, you didn't remember all of the knowledge that you had, let's say, is this what, is this what you would recommend people to do? Like when they're buying arrows, you know, take it out, look through the middle, see how they're built. Like, would you, is it the equivalent? Right.
Dorge Huang (38:54.716)
I mean, just like, mm-hmm, no,
Dorge Huang (39:05.64)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (39:15.412)
First of all, you don't know what you're looking for. That's the first problem.
Chris (39:18.156)
Is it the equivalent of like going for a test drive on a vehicle and saying like, okay, I like this, I like this, I don't like this, I like this, you know, like.
Dorge Huang (39:26.214)
You need to be a good driver first in order to do what a test drive is. Because if you drive your Honda, say, for the last 10 years, and you're going to, say, a Porsche, you're not going to like it. Because the buttons are on the wrong place.
Chris (39:29.931)
Okay, that's fair.
Chris (39:37.271)
Right.
Yeah I thought
Dorge Huang (39:42.42)
I mean, it's like the first time I drop my slap. I go into the car, I look around, then I notice my key is down here next to my emergency brakes. Yes, the sub key is right next to the emergency brakes. And then of course my Porsche key, my Cayenne is my right hand on the left hand side of the steering wheel. You're fucking there.
Chris (39:53.239)
Really?
the sob, sob key, I gotcha, okay.
Chris (40:04.246)
Okay. I actually have a quick side note. think you'll appreciate the story. My wife and I, went for our honeymoon. We went to Lake Tahoe and we landed in Sacramento. We stayed in Northern California for two nights and then we drove up to Lake Tahoe where we stayed the rest of the trip. Now the one thing we wanted to do, we both love sports cars. We're like, you know what? Screw it. Let's spend the money. We rented a beautiful Porsche. Never driven one, never driven one before.
Dorge Huang (40:14.472)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (40:31.422)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Chris (40:33.42)
I think it was like a, I don't even remember exactly which one it was, but it was like a sports, sports convertible stick shift thing was beautiful. So my father-in-law is a mechanic and I said, you know, dad, want to, I want to bring my golf clubs. want to go golfing in California. my golf club is going to fit in the Porsche. He goes, yeah, no problem. No problem. We get, we get to, we get there. We get to the parking lot where they parked the, where they parked the, the Porsche and ends up being a two seater, no backseat.
The engine is like right up against you and we couldn't fit the golf clubs. Couldn't even stand them up anywhere. We had to call an Uber just to come and take my golf clubs from the airport to our hotel. And then we went, we went, she came golfing with me and we ended up doing like maybe one or two rounds. And then I had to fly them back home because I couldn't transport them up to Lake Tahoe. So, but the ride was beautiful. It took me about two hours to figure out where all the buttons were. Like you said.
Dorge Huang (41:03.271)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (41:23.7)
you
Dorge Huang (41:28.564)
You
Chris (41:32.684)
You know, figure out how open, how to open the convertible and stuff. Didn't realize the air conditioner didn't really work if you're not moving. So when we were, when we were stuck, we were, we were stuck in traffic in the mountains all the way at the top, no cloud coverage with the sun baking on us. And we couldn't like we were dying.
Dorge Huang (41:39.516)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (41:49.3)
Yes. So you must have bought a 911 Taga.
Chris (41:54.67)
It was a 9, I think it was a 9-11.
Dorge Huang (41:57.256)
See, I thought myself a cayenne diesel gen 2. So I got 31 and a half miles together with my end and used it for hunting.
Chris (42:03.565)
Okay?
Chris (42:08.863)
Hey, listen, you gotta hunt in style sometimes, right?
Dorge Huang (42:12.96)
Yeah, you saw me. the last year I got my first bug after I got my Porsche Cayenne Turbo diesel. I just throw the damn thing on the back of my truck. Oh, you should see when I shot the deer in, I shot a really big dog downtown Chicago, 176th Street, right on Hallstatt, behind a church. And then I drove that thing all the way through Chicago at home.
Chris (42:30.52)
Well, okay.
Chris (42:37.24)
That's amazing. That's amazing. And you get one of two reactions. You either get the beep and the thumbs up, or the beep and the middle finger, like go F yourself.
Dorge Huang (42:46.896)
No,
Sorry, I got out. It happened to me too often. I was driving my platform the back then. And then my Sienna with the... See, I also learned when I first, when I killed my big 197 inch steer, I was driving my Saab 9.3 SE Turbo. I did the car for less than a month. So I got this 117 point...
Chris (43:15.241)
my God, that's...
Dorge Huang (43:37.428)
197 inch dear. What am I gonna do with it? So I rolled the deer into the back trunk. I was right enough. I put a tarp and then I easily go to the hardware store. I got a tarp. I throw the tarp inside and then with the DNR Eric, Eric is the helper and Greg was the superintendent of Willowbork.
Me and everyone, roll the deer into my trunk and I go home. Very happy. Then I go home and then I skin the deer, the whole nine yards, then go to a taxidermist. Actually, went and took the deer the next day to a taxidermist. They take the head off and so on and I took the deer home and butcher it. Don't ever do that to any car with a deer inside. You know why?
Chris (44:25.326)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (44:35.714)
Because a tarp doesn't- a tarp never holds all the water unless you don't want it to hold all the water. I know, but I'm just saying, the liquid, the blood. Really? Okay. Okay. What happened?
Dorge Huang (44:40.687)
nothing to do with water.
Dorge Huang (44:44.976)
No, it's nothing to do with It's clean, it's clean. Because the top is like a bucket.
Dorge Huang (44:53.992)
That Christmas, I go down to Florida with my wife. The whole freaking trip, just keep on feeling something is biting me. It's the fleas! come out the deer and hug the deer. To change the deer dye, you get cold, right? So the flea comes out and hug the middle section of the car because of the radiator it is. Then I end up have to buy two flea bomb on the three months old leather interior.
Chris (45:01.514)
Chris (45:08.621)
Yeah.
Chris (45:13.956)
my god.
Chris (45:21.646)
my god. I guess the fleas
Dorge Huang (45:27.86)
At least, at least, at least. No, no, no, I checked. got one down there. No, no, what do you call it? Those things, you know, the one with the big belly.
Chris (45:39.944)
No, I'm not familiar. yeah, thought, Okay.
Dorge Huang (45:43.335)
No text, just links. Because I was wondering, what the hell is this black thing? I finally killed one because I was wearing shorts. I killed one just in front of my knee. I said, what the hell is this? Then I just stood there and said, oh my God, it's a bleed. Then it hit me. That's a on that damn.
Chris (45:48.334)
sure.
Chris (45:54.323)
my god.
Chris (46:03.406)
And of course it has to be the dear of a lifetime. 197-incher, you're riding high, everything is great, and then, dah! Damn it. That's rough.
Dorge Huang (46:06.836)
You
Dorge Huang (46:14.484)
And then of course I did bomb the whole car with a ventilator smell and now he got flea bombed twice. I even bought a, bought a bought those.
The one you stick on the shelf, the shelf liner, I put them above my car so that when it fucked up, don't put the oil on top of my car. And then I lay paper all the way across, you free-bomb the whole car. Yeah, tell me about it. And then I'd be driving air-conditioned car in the middle of Florida with the windows down, the entire trip.
Chris (46:29.078)
Okay. Yep.
Chris (46:35.234)
Right.
God.
Bye sounds.
Chris (46:48.545)
You know, I'm sorry it happened to you, but I'm glad it didn't happen to me. That just sounds terrible. Right? That's fair trade, I guess, in that situation, right?
Dorge Huang (46:52.672)
Hey, but hey, would that not take the 197 engineer? Hell no.
Dorge Huang (47:00.783)
That's reason now I always buy a plastic rack. All my cars got a hitch on the back and then I usually just like with my tie in, I put that thing above my car and then when I go to get it, I take the rack out, put it on the back and I throw it on the rack with two straps.
Chris (47:12.097)
Okay.
Chris (47:15.968)
Yep. Either that or I have a pickup truck. either, you know, yeah, either that I throw it in there, like you said, with a tarp or I'll still put like like a wood carrier or a deer carrier on the back and transport my deer like that. Yep. Bye.
Dorge Huang (47:19.795)
the pickup trucks are different. You guys didn't throw anything on the back.
Dorge Huang (47:30.004)
Yeah, let's go back to the carbon. Sorry, that's too funny. I wish I wanted to share that portion. Now, do you see the carbon fiber itself is not carbon fiber. That's where the problem is. When you add different material, remember, nobody said all layer has to be the same.
Chris (47:38.85)
Yeah, no, that was fun. I enjoyed that.
Chris (47:51.094)
Right. Now when they're adding different materials, are they doing it for a purpose or is it just to save money? Why are they adding materials to the carbon fiber?
Dorge Huang (48:05.032)
based on the design actually. Just like in fishing, if you do crankbait, you are better off with a high fiberglass content fishing rod compared to a high carbon fishing rod because the rod is slower.
Chris (48:16.535)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (48:20.712)
The same thing with fiberglass. If you want it more durable in impact, you can put more fiberglass in it. Also, you increase the weight of the same identical shaft, because fiberglass with the same strength need more material, which you've got a thicker shaft, a more durable shaft with higher slug strength compared to a higher performance strength in weight.
Chris (48:27.886)
Okay.
Chris (48:46.58)
Okay. So, so then that poses the question. I, I understand completely from a fishing rod standpoint, because, in our last episode, we talked about how I'm a big fan of the St. Croix Mojo bass. And I love how each of their rods are labeled with what they're there. The, you can maximize the performance of the rod for. So when you buy a Mojo bass rod, you look at the bottom, I'm sure you know this, but it'll say, it'll say plastics or top water or crankbait.
And like you're saying, the speed of the helps with the swimming action of whatever lure you're using.
Dorge Huang (49:21.257)
All right, and they're not to mention the fishing reel itself a big impact and the fishing line. It's the same thing with when you got a, just like when you look at say, I mean, I always like to use the, because Carbon Express have the more expanded line. Like when you look at the power driver of Carbon Express, that's a high fiberglass content arrows. That's reason it can be like 10, 12 grain per inch.
Chris (49:46.711)
Okay.
And that's to give them a little bit more of a punch when they...
Dorge Huang (49:53.94)
Correct, but at the same time, you give them the weight, you give them the girt, you give them the slowness of the carbon aero. But then you look at the Blue Street Select, the weight is something like six, seven grain per inch compared to 12. We're talking really double the weight.
Chris (49:56.918)
Right.
Chris (50:02.456)
Okay.
Chris (50:13.206)
I gotcha. based on what they're trying, so basically what we're saying is based on what they're trying to get out of the arrow, are they trying to make a thin light GPI arrow? Are they trying to make a thin, heavy GPI arrow, grain per inch? So based on what they as a company are trying to get out of the arrow, they're going to add or remove materials from that carbon mixture essentially.
Dorge Huang (50:39.7)
Not just that, you can also like what I did when I went exodus, I was helping them. Like with the MMT, I told them don't touch my aero wave, it's too expensive. The gold with my spot wave, which is where the MMT is, is nothing more than exactly the same as gold tip for the first three layer. And then I put a fourth layer of weave on the outside, which is identical to my spot wave. But then when they want a 204,
Chris (50:50.38)
Bye.
Chris (51:03.735)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (51:08.084)
with the same GPI as the light is out there. I don't think that can happen. I'm going to need at least 1.5K, 4K carbon fiber weave to do that. That thing you can sell it for $89.95 just on desktop. You're going to need at least 140 bucks. And then in case of like mine, you're going to need $219 retail.
Chris (51:14.36)
Right.
Chris (51:26.562)
Yeah. So I'm, so I will, Yeah. So I'm in a, I'm in a fortunate position. I have tried your arrow weave. I have tried the Exodus, both the 204s and the 246s. And I've tried another company's micro diameter arrow, super light GPI.
Dorge Huang (51:47.177)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (51:54.35)
And I won't say what brand or what arrow that was. won't, you know, I never really, I want to try my best not to knock anybody if I, if I can. The problem I.
Dorge Huang (52:03.468)
Unless you've got a testing and then you have proof to test. Otherwise don't mention and then you get yourself in trouble.
Chris (52:06.666)
Right. Yeah. So the, the, the company's arrow that I'm not going to mention, I liked the way it flew. was very light. was very fast, but I did not feel like it had great structural integrity and to not, not even forget about impact on a target. My arrows were cracking when I was putting my knocks in the back before I even shot the arrow, the arrows were cracking and Tim and I just didn't like that.
Dorge Huang (52:23.74)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (52:34.736)
Well, actually that is, see, when you're ultra high modular carbon and that's what you go for, there's two ways to overcome it. You can also put a bushing in the back, like a finite arrow bevel, or like the original Cotip did that to the arrow because they don't know how to handle the loop strength. So they put an aluminum bushing over the arrow shaft, on front and back. Another way it behaves like a ulcer.
Chris (52:49.121)
Okay.
Chris (52:57.901)
Okay.
Chris (53:01.868)
Right.
Dorge Huang (53:02.068)
And then in the case of carbon insurance, they call it the bulldog caller. In the case of FINA, we call it the arrow beaver. We do that for the 204 in the front and the 166 for the back. It is pretty much needed because when you're going to put 24 arrows into a single target, they're going to hit.
Chris (53:12.706)
Okay.
Chris (53:21.645)
Yeah.
Dorge Huang (53:23.024)
And if you don't protect your arrow, you're going to get very expensive very fast.
Chris (53:26.646)
Yes, especially the more consistent your arrows get, the more expensive that bill is going to get. you know, so, and going on with what I was saying, I shot that company and those issues that I was having with the Knox is what led me to try your arrow weave in the first place. There were two, there were two 46s. And to this day, I have not shot another arrow. I've shot three different arrows since then. I have not shot another arrow that is as durable.
Dorge Huang (53:33.182)
Call right.
Dorge Huang (53:46.088)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (53:56.768)
as those arrows. I mean, they fly well, they hit hard, every arrow behaves the same way. And I also...
Dorge Huang (54:04.54)
You know why? Actually, that was why I'm trying to remember, I told you, with every single arrow out there, they are not engineered to do what they do. The air wave is a patent engineering process. And I'll explain that very simply to you. Imagine that when you got a sheet of carbon, we already know that when we got linear carbon rolling exactly the zero degree direction.
Chris (54:15.364)
The arrow weave is. Right.
Dorge Huang (54:30.836)
of the carbon, you're going to end up with an aerosol that's very consistent on the spine. You're going to react fast and everything, except it's sucked on catastrophic condition. Because all the fibrolinia coming straight, if you hit one of them, it's going to crack like glass. Then remember we talked about with gold tip, we do a deep angle and opposite each other so that they cancel each other, Then with the case of my understanding with the elements are extruded on the whole thing and then they wrap
Chris (54:41.39)
Okay, what do mean?
Chris (54:45.942)
Right, okay.
Dorge Huang (55:01.204)
a one to two ratio carbon weave on the outside to make it safer. Then I ask myself this question, why can't I use ultra high modular carbon weave? 90 degree and zero degree and then align them zero degree to the shaft so that they are absolutely consistent in the spine direction because remember weave is a cloth.
And then that is what layer one and layer four of air wave is. It's a 90 degree and zero degree wave. The layer two from the inside out, it's a linear cavity from top bottom to top. So in other words, now of course, if you've got a cloth, there's no string to it because there's no spine on it.
Chris (55:54.382)
So we have to add a spine.
Dorge Huang (55:56.072)
That's reason layer two is what the spine of the arrow is. Now we control these two. Now we notice that the layer one and layer four is zero and 90 degree. So if the torsion happens, it's going to be horrendous. Because when you have a cloth and you twist the cloth, the cloth is going to be deformed outrageously. All right. That's the reason layer three of an arrow wave.
Chris (56:17.386)
everywhere. Yeah.
Dorge Huang (56:22.868)
is a 45 and 135 degree cloth. So now you may...
Chris (56:26.542)
Okay. So each layer of arrow weave has a purpose and a reason. It has a reason to be there. And it sounds like one, two, and three, correct me if I'm wrong, one, two, and three are mostly the ones that are doing what you want the arrow to do in the sense of structure and spine and everything. And then the others are either for safety or to counteract whatever the others are doing basically. Okay.
Dorge Huang (56:39.719)
One, three, and four.
Dorge Huang (56:53.524)
All right, I'm trying to, the number two is pretty much the only thing that give you the spine, which is why air weaver always have here. Because the layer one, three and four are nothing more than protection layers. But then as we understand when you go into a 4K, 4K wave, it is significantly thinner.
Chris (57:17.614)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (57:17.79)
But then we also need to understand carbon fiber on a weave is not a weave because that's one to two ratio weave and a one to one ratio weave.
Chris (57:26.956)
Right, so that's one, two, one, two type of deal. Is that what you mean by? Okay.
Dorge Huang (57:30.578)
No, it's like this.
And then it went to like this, but there's only one here. So that's pretty much your herringbone approach. But in most cases, if you want a truly carbon fiber, but now the problem is that if the carbon fiber itself is not so thin, you can lay flat. When you interact, that space right here, see the hole right there? It's your problem. You can't make something flat until you make this thing super thin.
Chris (57:36.384)
Okay? Gotcha.
Chris (57:42.691)
Okay.
Chris (57:57.132)
Yes. Okay.
Dorge Huang (58:02.846)
When you make it super thin, it costs a bundle.
Chris (58:05.504)
a cabondo. So let me ask you this then, because now it kind of all makes sense. And I'm not saying this to be negative. I think it's just been my experience. What I found, I shot your fire knock arrow weave made by Jeremy. Jeremy made those for me, phenomenal arrows. But like you said, you pay for what you get. And those, you know...
Dorge Huang (58:23.336)
He
Dorge Huang (58:29.638)
Uh-huh.
Chris (58:31.406)
From beginning to end with all the parts, also opted to get the end caps and the weights, like the match grade weights put in the back. Out the door, shipping and everything included, I spent somewhere between $450 and $500 for a full dozen arrows. And I'll be honest with you, they were worth every penny. But the following year I said, okay, I really like the 246s, now I want to try a 204.
Dorge Huang (58:39.859)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (58:52.403)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (59:00.204)
That's when I found Exodus. spoke to you. We talked about it. Great option, whatever. I got the 204s and I ended up having some issues with those on the front of the arrow. I'm not sure if it was a build issue or whatever the deal was, but you and I talked about it and you said, yeah, that's, pretty much a product of the 204s. And if they're not built perfectly exact, simply because of the way they're designed, they could run into issues. So I went back to 246s Exodus as well.
And here's what I found in my shooting. I found that the sport weave and the arrow weave shot equally consistent, but the arrow weave had a little bit more durability than the sport weave. Is that an accurate assessment? Okay.
Dorge Huang (59:43.571)
Exactly. Correct. Because the spot weave is technically, first of all, a gold tip arrow is a very good design. I I give Martin Carlson a lot of credit. When they come up with this thing, when he first come up with it, the concept is correct. It's a pure engineering standpoint. It's absolutely correct. But then I still think that the construction and reliability is not there. Because at that moment, a weaved cloth is not available. It's just not there. You can't get one.
and now we can get it reasonably cheap. Why not? That's the reason I would tell them my spot with is an improved Golted Hole Hunter. Oh yes.
Chris (01:00:13.186)
And we.
Chris (01:00:21.016)
So, and we want the weave, right? If I'm not mistaken, we want the weave for safety reasons.
Dorge Huang (01:00:26.354)
Not safety, it's consistency. Because if you just have layering, from layering unless your machining is so perfect, batch to batch to batch, you cannot get the consistency out of it. That's the reason I remember the time I talked to Tim Gillingham, he was smart enough, he was very kind to tell me, hey, Dodge, if you want a good, we want this arrow for what? Get a batch, because if you look at some of the older Go-Tip arrows, they come with a number on it. When they buy three or four dozen, they all are the same.
Chris (01:00:28.32)
Okay, gotcha. the problem
Dorge Huang (01:00:56.062)
So now you know this bundle of all behaved the same because see carbon fiber is another thing people don't understand. You build carbon fiber in the old days in summertime, wintertime, they behave differently.
Chris (01:01:09.176)
and that's because of the way that they're built. Right, right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Dorge Huang (01:01:11.252)
Not because of temperature, the resin behavior. I mean, now, of course, most of the resin are put in the freezer. When you use it, you take it out, you cut it, you build it. But remember, still have to, most people, just like I've got a few Canadian customer telling me, just building arrows itself. I mean, just like when I build fishing rods. If I build them in this office, now, they're gonna come out like shit. Sorry. They're gonna come out look bad. Because see, my temperature in my office maintained at about 58 degrees.
Chris (01:01:33.164)
Right. That's okay.
Chris (01:01:39.5)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (01:01:41.04)
If you want a good flow of resin, I'll do my basement, my wife keeps that, around 70. That 12 degree would cause resin to flow differently. The bonding is different. I mean, yes, we went gold driver, we rolled them. Remember, you roll, we are rolling them actively. We're the activator and we now roll it. But I want to control the moisture. Humidity, now humidity, moisture, temperature.
Chris (01:02:08.398)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:02:09.084)
I remember one time I got a bunch of gentlemen call me about the next breaking. Your manufacturer. think, I'm actually breaking. said, when they are, they're losing a day. I know your stuff. When are they mold? When you make them November. I said, I bet somebody opened the door. Because when they opened the door, the curing of polycarbonate from outside in.
Chris (01:02:26.348)
Yeah, when did you make them?
Chris (01:02:31.626)
my god.
Dorge Huang (01:02:37.556)
That process caused the molecular structure, the crystallization, to become a lot more brittle. So the moment we force on it, cracks.
Chris (01:02:43.598)
Sure. And this is where the chemistry of everything comes in. And I literally mean the science chemistry, right? Because I'll give an example of why understanding or at least accepting the fact that minor differences like that actually matter, right? Take a bottle of soda and put it on your deck in 70 degrees. If you go to open that bottle,
Dorge Huang (01:02:49.766)
Yes.
Dorge Huang (01:02:53.256)
Yes!
Dorge Huang (01:03:04.54)
Yes.
Chris (01:03:12.022)
it's gonna explode if you don't open it slowly. Now put that same bottle in your fridge and open it at 35 degrees. It's nice and calm and you can open it as fast as you want. It's because the hotter the molecules, the faster they're moving and the more erratic they are. Not that this is science experiment, but again, what we're trying to tell you, we're trying to give you the information so you understand why it's important. Why do we care how something is built? Because the difference of five degrees
Dorge Huang (01:03:25.361)
Exactly.
Chris (01:03:38.978)
can be the difference between how everything gets put together and how consistent those arrows are from arrow to arrow.
Dorge Huang (01:03:42.97)
Like what happened to me? mean one of my really good old customers called me. He told me, Dodge, I just bought a new boat. I need two dozen of arrows. Can you build for me? Without even thinking because I haven't built an arrow for so long. I figured that I'll just build it for him in between my hunt. I send an arrow there. He said, Dodge, this is the worst two dozen arrows I've ever seen. The end cap built in, hull, the veins fall off. Well.
Chris (01:04:06.506)
no.
Dorge Huang (01:04:11.988)
I didn't recognize that my humidity in my office is so low and the temperature gets so low because I always wear a Gortex Thinsulate jacket on me. So I really don't care. I don't really turn the... And it's comfortable. But then I did not turn the heater underneath my table. I got a heater under my table to keep the surface around there 70. I did not do that.
Chris (01:04:22.68)
Sure.
Chris (01:04:32.184)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:04:35.208)
So the superglue gel was crystallization too fast. And the acetone is not evaporating fast enough.
Chris (01:04:38.456)
Yep.
Chris (01:04:43.318)
and I'm sure the two-part epoxy wasn't taken very well either.
Dorge Huang (01:04:46.356)
No, the too fast we've all seen the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
Chris (01:04:49.664)
Right. Yeah, you know.
See, that's why I'm so happy. know, I've told you before, my wife and I, just bought our house in Pennsylvania and I was fortunate enough or we're fortunate enough that I have an extra room in the house, which I've been able to turn into this office and it's where I record my stuff. But it's also where I'm going to have my bow press, my arrow building stuff and my bullet reloading stuff in this little 10 by 11 room. Okay. But the nice thing about the 10 by 11 room is if I want to build arrows, especially arrow concept,
Dorge Huang (01:05:16.392)
Yeah.
Yes.
Chris (01:05:25.71)
where I need to let the stuff dry for 24 hours between each step. I can turn up the heat in this office to 70 or 75 degrees and just let it heat one room instead of having to heat the whole house to that temperature. know, so I, being in this room, I have the ability to monitor some of those more important factors.
Dorge Huang (01:05:39.41)
YES!
Dorge Huang (01:05:47.252)
Right. And see, this is on one step, you have. that you are manufacturer. And those layers, just like most of the arrows right now from Asia, they are not from Korea. I mean, the only company who still make arrows from Korea is out of G5 because they pick up with Carbon Express level. Most of the other arrows are in Hong Kong, China, Vietnam. China is in Xiaoming China, which is Shaanmen China, which is just in front of Taiwan.
Chris (01:06:07.181)
Okay.
Chris (01:06:16.846)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:06:16.852)
The other one is Vietnam, the high moisture, high content area. So that's the reason the Cabin Express Aero there and the Cabin Express Aero made in Korea. They are slightly different.
Chris (01:06:27.608)
Sure, it just makes sense.
Dorge Huang (01:06:28.658)
I now you need to, I'm not saying that they can't replicate it, but now you've got the full room, your control environment. You need to control the moisture, you know, control the temperature, and are they really that careful with it?
Chris (01:06:42.862)
Well, it's just like I say, when I go hunting, if I know I'm not going to go through the whole spiel again, but if I can, the more variables that I can have under control, the less I have to worry about when the shot comes. If I know that my, if I know how my equipment is going to behave, when it's going to behave that way and what to do, if it doesn't, then I know that I'm the only person I, or the only thing I have to worry about when the shot comes, you know, and to me, to me, that's, that's huge.
Dorge Huang (01:07:08.06)
Well, actually, I want to wrap this up since we're over an hour already. The bottom line is that you need to know or you have somebody who's better than you to know what you're looking for. Because material alone, remember, that's not a single material, just because people say, I make all the air with 4K, 4K, 1K, 4K carbon. What does that mean? I Carbon Express use 1K, 4K as decoration.
Chris (01:07:11.778)
Okay.
Chris (01:07:20.462)
Right.
Dorge Huang (01:07:36.148)
and was a pattern in there since 2009. It is a pattern owned by Taubman Express to show you they use a 1K, 4K weave as decoration.
Chris (01:07:42.958)
for decoration.
Chris (01:07:52.891)
So you're saying structurally, it doesn't actually do anything for it, just looks pretty. Okay.
Dorge Huang (01:07:58.012)
Yes, that was the pattern to look pretty. You can go to ESPD and look for comics.
Chris (01:08:05.782)
Right. So I'm going to ask you a question and because, I know we want to wrap this up. Like you said, we're, we're a little over an hour here and I already know that this answer is a little, it's an, it's an in-depth question, but I'm going to, I'm going to ask you if, if you have somebody new, let's say somebody's listening to this podcast, they're, they're just up until now, all of their arrows have been built for them, or maybe it's their, their first bow and arrow ever.
Dorge Huang (01:08:08.168)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:08:18.182)
Is this?
Chris (01:08:32.46)
and they're going to the store and they want to make sure that they're buying something good, but they also want to try to save money where they can. What type of things should they look for in an arrow they want to buy? Or what are certain things that they should look for to say, that's a red flag, I shouldn't buy this arrow?
Dorge Huang (01:08:49.72)
Let me give you a totally off the wall suggestion because I was given the same recommendation by the gentleman who teach me hunting. If you first do a hunting, know your yardage. Number one, 25 yards. If you never shoot over 25 yards, you can buy any bow, any arrow, you pretty much you'll kill it. So the best way you practice with it, you're good to go.
After you learn how to hunt, after you know your equipment well, the moment you extend to 35, 45 consistently, that's where arrow material, bow design, arrow configuration, individual component of configuration all become more and more important. Now when you're building an arrow like, quote unquote, my dragon's layer, which is meant for 135 yards, 35 miles per hour and go through bulletproof vest.
Now you're talking a whole different ballgame.
Chris (01:09:45.806)
Okay, now to follow that up, because I want to circle back to something we spoke about. don't remember what episode it was, but we talked about the certain yardages where certain things don't, arrows don't recover within a certain length or whatever. Okay, so when you say, as long as you're shooting 25 or under any bow, any arrow kills something. Right, okay, gotcha.
Dorge Huang (01:09:51.518)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:10:02.045)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:10:08.308)
From 18 to 25 yard, that's your shooting range. Know your garbage. You can technically buy any bow and go to Walmart and get a dozen arrow for like three, four bucks. You will kill deer the way it should kill deer. Because you have not, with today's technology, you can't really not kill a deer with the junkiest broadhead with that distance. Because if you really go with that, your arrow feet will not be over 260 feet per second. Aerodynamic don't matters.
Chris (01:10:15.918)
Okay.
Chris (01:10:22.027)
Okay.
Chris (01:10:35.03)
Right, yep.
Dorge Huang (01:10:37.428)
and you don't get a bow with 85 % let off, you get it around 70 or 80. Under that condition, you will enjoy hunting. You will not be pulling your hair with an 85, 90 % let off, 90 % let off bow with a 166, with a 150 grain FOC, 15 % FOC. You're screwing yourself.
Chris (01:10:42.136)
Right.
Chris (01:10:46.37)
Yes.
Chris (01:10:55.797)
Yeah.
Chris (01:11:01.27)
Yeah. And I will say this. I am, I'm a junkie. And what I mean by that is when I find something I enjoy, get addicted to it and I go a hundred percent. don't, I don't, I don't, right. What I was getting at was if you're, if you're a new archer, if you're a new hunter, it's really great that you're listening to our podcast and it's really great that you're listening to this information, but I'm telling you, if you don't want to psych yourselves out of hunting before you fall in love with it.
Dorge Huang (01:11:06.569)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:11:13.646)
no, no, wrong with it, but-
Dorge Huang (01:11:19.496)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:11:31.316)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:11:31.534)
Like, like Dorje saying, get yourself, get yourself a Matthew Z seven extreme, get yourself a, get yourself a, a Hunter 300 arrow and just go have a good time. If you, if you're, if you're shooting a bow that isn't super fast and you're shooting a fatter arrow, you can work on yourself and you can become good at your craft. can become good at your trade. And then at that point, when you want to start fine tuning something, same as if you wanted to go tune the engine for your car, after you learned how to drive it.
Now you can do it.
Dorge Huang (01:12:02.396)
I'll share with you a funny story. You know, I used to the Joliet training area in Chicago. I used to hunt the Joliet Army training area in Chicago. It's in Joliet. You know, to hunt there, you need to qualify. That means on July 1st, you need to go there and then you need to three arrows, 20 yards into a pie plate. You have two arrow hits the pie plate. You qualify. Okay?
Chris (01:12:07.704)
You use what now?
Okay.
Dorge Huang (01:12:31.528)
The guy with the brand new BMW showed up, taking it very calmly, pull his tie, throw his jacket, his suit right in the back seat, grab his brand new bowl case, it's a Matthew, whatever that is. He opened the bowl, then he threw it in the viewpoint. And the guy, the ranger said, no, no, broadhead only. Yes, you can only shoot with broadheads. So, no problem, he opened a brand new satellite. You can see how long we're talking satellite broadhead.
Chris (01:12:50.498)
Really?
Dorge Huang (01:13:00.072)
He put three together, put an arrow. Guess what? Not a single arrow hit a three by three target. That's a 20 yard. What did that just tell you?
Chris (01:13:04.14)
not not one.
Chris (01:13:11.596)
He failed. That's the broadhead.
Dorge Huang (01:13:13.036)
He found miserebony, but he told me, he said, what's wrong with this? I've been shooting at least 10 shots a day for the last five days.
Chris (01:13:23.266)
You know, Dorj, I gotta be honest with you. I have always been a good shot. I'm not competition worthy. I'm not out here winning tournaments or everything.
Dorge Huang (01:13:29.364)
No, actually competition is not as difficult as hank kande. You know why?
Chris (01:13:37.006)
There's not a live target in front of you
Dorge Huang (01:13:39.22)
No, a competition you can wait. You know exactly what the target is. You don't have choice. You don't have to do all of the above and there's no rushing.
Chris (01:13:44.713)
yes. Yes. And there's time, there's time between shots and all that.
Dorge Huang (01:13:51.609)
And the tag is not looking at you.
Chris (01:13:54.38)
That's right. That's right. You know, but I've always been a good shot. picked up, we picked up 22s as kids. I could hit the targets. No problem. I went out, I went out to New Hampshire. I was shooting 300 yards. And I know for a lot of people, 300 yards isn't far for me from New Jersey. I never saw a target farther than a hundred yards. So I go out to New Hampshire. I'm hitting targets at 300. I pick up a, I pick up a bow and I shoot well. Now, what I noticed was as a kid, we used to shoot.
Dorge Huang (01:14:03.412)
Stay alive.
Dorge Huang (01:14:12.947)
Mm-hm.
Chris (01:14:23.32)
Thunderhead broadheads fixed with the interchangeable blades on them and we would just screw them on and my uncle would say, as long as they're aligned to the veins, you're good to go, go hunt. What I tell you, I used to miss deer by three feet and I used to, I used to, I was so confused. I would say, what in the world is going on? I shoot so well, and I'll grade that there's a little bit of target panic, but missing by three feet? I couldn't believe it. And then I find, and then
Dorge Huang (01:14:24.691)
You
Dorge Huang (01:14:36.914)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:14:51.67)
You know, now fast forward 10 years. Now I'm doing all this research. I'm learning all of these things. Aerodynamics broadheads tuning and all this stuff. I'm like, no freaking wonder why I couldn't hit anything. Once I put those veins on the front of the arrow, you know, so
Dorge Huang (01:15:07.388)
You know what I find out? What happened to me?
My good buddy Brian Naby and his cousin Rick tell me, George, you need to shoot, you need to practice with broadheads. Who need to do that? It's the same, it's just blades, what's the big deal? So I put a hoitchuck on top of my bow. think this is 35 yards, that's how much fire you want to hit because they come out the corn field behind you. I aim at the freaking thing I target, I shot, boom.
Chris (01:15:11.79)
What's that?
Dorge Huang (01:15:37.332)
Because back then, your eyes, truly, when I'm 25 years old, my eyes are pretty damn good. I saw the arrow come to the bow, and then they do a big freaking circle, like that. And then hit somewhere about eight feet on the left.
Chris (01:15:42.926)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:15:53.357)
That's incredible. You know, one of the, one of the biggest things for me, um, for the listeners go, you're going to hear us bring up this research a lot throughout this series, but on the fire knock website, top right, there's a tab that says research, click on it, go down. And there's a, there was a study done by, um, um, Tony warden. And one of, if you read through it you listen, or if you look at the data,
Dorge Huang (01:16:14.142)
Tony Warren.
Chris (01:16:20.652)
I'm not going to say the arrow. I'm not going to say the vein type. You can see the research on your own. This particular brand called Tony and said, I know you're doing this project. I want you to test our new veins. And he said, I have no problem testing them for you. But if I test them, no matter what happens, I'm releasing the information. said, no problem. He had to stop his testing of that particular combination at 50 yards because the arrow was, the arrow was hitting the dirt. It wasn't even reaching the 60 and 70 yard targets.
Dorge Huang (01:16:43.657)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:16:49.632)
And for those of you who didn't hear it on the last one, Tony Warden is a multi-time Canadian archery champion, right? He won in America also. He used to shoot for Hoyt, you know, so this isn't just some, yeah. So this isn't just some guy, you know, doing a project on the weekend. He's a professional shooter. He knows what he's doing, you know? So again, the big thing about all this, ladies and gentlemen, is we're not trying to push you to one particular product or thing. If you listen to Dorj Talk, he gives credit to everybody.
Dorge Huang (01:16:49.908)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:16:56.692)
Mm-hmm.
He's a high captain in North America.
Dorge Huang (01:17:05.841)
Exactly.
Dorge Huang (01:17:13.171)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:17:19.714)
You know, go tip has great arrows. Easton has great arrows the way they make them. I've heard you mentioned victory a couple of times now, you know, you give credit where credit is due and each of those arrows has a place for someone as long as, as long as they're set up calls for it, you know, so
Dorge Huang (01:17:36.2)
Because there's no best fishing rod, there's no best arrow, there's no best broadhead. The question is that what are you gonna do with it? In what condition you believe that you're gonna use it? Because when you're slightly defeated from that, things start getting bad. I mean, you said general, yes. Another question is that, is your general the same as my general? What do you mean by general? I just like I was talking to Andy.
Chris (01:17:58.986)
Right. Right.
Dorge Huang (01:18:05.404)
out of something in and out. This time, the general for the customer is 95 yards. That's the shortest they're gonna shoot. You know why? Because they haven't finished. The deer is not gonna walk 80 yards in front of any tree. They're gonna walk 80 yards in front, 80 or 90 yards out in front of field. So if you're gonna shoot, what are you gonna do?
Chris (01:18:25.632)
And right.
Chris (01:18:31.576)
You need something that can, you need something that's effective starting at that distance. Not have that be the, yeah.
Dorge Huang (01:18:36.158)
Correct, and then you need to know what you're doing with a vertical ball. And then you need to remember, and then next time, in this time of the year, in something you know, when you don't have something at least a 10 mile to 50 miles per hour wind. When you should...
Chris (01:18:48.376)
Yeah. I mean, right. Honestly, honestly this year, and I know it's going to sound so silly and people are going to call me a bitch, but it's okay. There have been so many days that I was going to go hunting this year and the wind is blowing so hard that like trees are literally going like bending over on those days. I look at a tree and I'd rather just be sitting at home. There's nothing enjoyable to me about it. Please don't tell me the tree broke. No.
Dorge Huang (01:19:10.844)
No, I did that before. Guess what happened to me?
Chris (01:19:17.986)
See that?
No, that doesn't happen to me. For me, I had a tree stand malfunction on me when I was younger. Yeah, it was a climbing stand. Are you familiar with the old Amikas from the 80s and 90s?
Dorge Huang (01:19:26.95)
Really? no, no, no.
Mm-hmm.
Of course I do, just like I used to hunt vintage point. So we're talking that era.
Chris (01:19:38.38)
Yeah. So, so I guess I shouldn't say that it was a product malfunction. It was user error, but on the, on the, the, on the Amica stands, can adjust both the top and the bottom, but you have to have the bottom pin to the top. Otherwise, if you, cause when you pull the pins and it adjusts, if it's not attached, you whatever. So that's what happened. I forgot to attach the top, the bottom platform to the top. I pulled the pins, the bottom shot out. And at the time I wasn't wearing a harness ever, ever since then.
I've been terrified of heights. It's just any, any small little movement in, the, in the, in a platform, the platform resets or whatever. So as the years go on, I get a little bit better with it. I get more comfortable in the tree this year. I didn't really have any issues with, you know, feeling like I was too high or anything. It's just a matter of, if I look at something and I know I'm going to be uncomfortable when I get up there, I'll either hunt from the ground or I'm going you I'm going home.
Dorge Huang (01:20:31.974)
Well, I think this should conclude our material construction. I mean, we're pushing an hour 20 minutes already.
Chris (01:20:37.942)
Yeah, no, no, I agree. do you think do we have any more to do? You want to do another episode on carbon or do you want to go into the?
Dorge Huang (01:20:44.218)
No, actually, I pretty much said it already because I don't expect any listener to understand the construction approach and how would each layer interact. And not to mention, I can only know what I have tested. And if you really want to learn, you need to learn how to find out how other people build carbon arrows. And just like you know, they are not the same. None of them are.
Chris (01:21:04.12)
Sure. yep. So guys, basically if you're, if you're shooting arrows and let's say, you know, you have a dozen and there's three or four that are kind of acting wonky, maybe giving some thought to how those arrows are made based on your system is something to give some thought to.
Dorge Huang (01:21:16.98)
Mm.
No, actually I want to leave it for the next step also with other components. And then that's where everything is going to change because you can make a big, big difference using components to force Arrow to behave.
Chris (01:21:23.896)
Okay?
components.
Chris (01:21:31.31)
Okay. So at this point, we've done everything with the background information. We've talked about history of arrows, where carbon came from, how carbon interacts, and now we can start to get into the meat and potatoes of what it
Dorge Huang (01:21:41.766)
No, no, not yet. We're talking about the construction of an arrow. Then we'll go into each sizes because we need to now, because the reason I want to mention each size, because every size arrow has a whole different approach on component and what is expected to be hexed with each. Because components are not the same size difference.
Chris (01:21:47.106)
Gotcha. Okay. Fantastic.
Chris (01:22:03.214)
Gotcha.
Okay, so starting with the next few episodes, we're gonna start talking about specific sized arrows and specific components for those arrows. Perfect. Okay, start 246 and move on. I love it. Guys, listen, if you enjoy what you're hearing, make sure you go down to the bottom, leave us a review. Five Star Written Review goes a long way for the channel here. If you have any questions about anything you've heard in the episodes, make sure to reach out to Dorj, that's at Fire Knock, what is Fire Knock, LLC.com, okay.
Dorge Huang (01:22:12.402)
Yep, we're going to start with 246.
Dorge Huang (01:22:32.052)
Yes, go to finite.com or contact at finite.com. I will always answer emails. All right?
Chris (01:22:37.87)
Okay. Okay. You can, yep. You can email me as well at wing and tail.chris at gmail.com, or you can just scroll down to the bottom of the YouTube video and leave us a comment question there. Either way, I hope you enjoyed the content and until next time, remember success is just a commitment away. Have a great day.
Dorge Huang (01:22:55.348)
Hmm.
