Secret Weapon Turkey Calling w/ Matt Dale

On this week's episode of the Pennsylvania Woodsman, Mitch chat's with Matt Dale from Dale Outdoors.  Mitch opens by recapping his exciting week of turkey hunting and filling his second tag at the end of week one with a bow!  If you listened to last week's episode of Mitch's opening day gobbler, he talked about using the "whine" call.  He first heard this call explained on one of Matt's youtube videos.  We begin our conversation by diving into this call - what it is, how and when to use it, and its context for hunting situations.  

We continue down the rabbit hole of keeping realism in your turkey calling.  This includes using "wheel-wheel's", "do-it do-it's", gobbler yelping, and more.  We discuss the value of volume and cadence in calls, especially in everyone's favorite yelping scenario.  How does a spring turkey hunter yelp sound vs. how does a real hen yelp sound?  Last, Matt recaps a hunt for a bird he called "Quirky", which took 7 hunts until he connected by pulling out an old secret weapon.  This is dynamite turkey hunting information to keep you fired up midway through the season!

[00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Pennsylvania Woodsman Podcast. I'm your host, Mitchell Shirk. And guys, I'm coming off of one of the craziest Turkey hunting seasons, I think ever. I don't think I've ever been able to have the opportunities that I had and as short of time as I had letting the cat outta the bag.

If you guys follow me on Instagram, you probably saw. But I talked last week's show, was was my opening week kill up in Potter County, and I followed that up on Friday the first week and filled my second tag. So I'm tagged out in Pennsylvania. I'm all done. So it was a cool hunt.

I I went to went to this property that I have permission to hunt, and it's a family property. And I was chatting with with the family member that [00:01:00] has this property and we're just chatting before daylight. And he wasn't gonna go hunting. We were just catching up. I hadn't seen him in a while.

And at one point he finally says, you ought to get going. It's light out. And I'm like, oh, yeah, it is. It was probably, I don't know, like quarter of six at that point. So I decided I'll just walk up this one road. It leads up to this This intersection where you can go right or left and it takes you to to a food plot.

So I get to this intersection, make a couple calls, don't hear anything, not really sure what I want to don't really have my hopes up, and I'm don't really care because I'm still coming off of the first one. I'm still coming off that excitement of that, that first bird that I got and I decided I was gonna go to the left and go to this one food plot out there.

So I'm halfway there and I hear turkey's gobble on their own. And I was pretty sure by the gobbles and the amount of gobbles, I had a feeling it was Jake's I knew that there was some Jakes in the area and like [00:02:00] sometimes you, you can be sh fairly sure. I was pretty sure it was Jake's gobbling.

But I made my mind of I was gonna try to kill one, my second bird. I wanted to kill with the bow, or I wanted to kill with my 20 gauge. And I was deciding which weapon to take based on where I was hunting. If it was a place that was conducive to hunt with a bow, I decided that I would. So I had the bow at this place and I was a little bit like disgusted with myself.

Oh, you should have been here sooner because there's a blind there and it, I would've been in the blind. They would've. Been there, I've been waiting for 'em when they got there. But too little, too late. They birds were already there, so I'm like, God, now what the heck am I gonna do?

So I had a Jake Decoy in my bag and I set up on the road that leads into this food plot and tried to call the birds to me. And I just hunkered in a rosebush. And I was thinking maybe if they see the Jake Tcoy, maybe they'd fixate on that. And I, I could get drawn [00:03:00] back without a blind.

So I called to the birds and they gobbled, of course, they're Jakes, they gobbled in anything. They gobbled their full heads off and they did get closer, but for whatever reason they just hung up at that one spot in the field. They couldn't see what was calling to him and they just stayed out there being Jake's doing their thing.

And I finally, they started gobbling farther away from me and I decided I can make a move a little bit closer. It's risky, but I'm gonna try it. So there's a path that leads into this field and it's pretty well screened, and I thought if I get to that field, I might be able to get to the edge of it without being seen.

There's a couple of small openings. I thought I might be able to call birds into that opening and get a shot off. So that's what I did. I snuck in this trail and I got, I was about oh five, 10 yards from this wall of brush, and I had a, I had two small openings where I could see into the field.

Made a few calls, then of course they gobbled their full heads off [00:04:00] and I started seeing Heads Bob and past, and they were somewhere at that point, they were somewhere between, I'm gonna say 30 and 40 yards, a little too far. And I couldn't move there. I would've been pinned. So I just kept calling and trying to wait 'em out.

And they were going back and forth. And finally I had some that got a little bit closer and I knew where they were standing in the field. I was guessing, I thought, they've gotta be between 25 and 30 yards. And I thought they, they were starting to get nervous. I thought it's probably now or never. If I'm gonna shoot one of these.

And I have no problem shooting at Jake, especially with the bow. I, I said last week, I never killed one with the bow in pa in the spring. And I was, I made my mind up. I was excited, I was jacked. I was absolutely gonna try to shoot one. One went behind a tree. I drew my bow back ever as slowly as possible, and I held my bow low.

I was standing up against a tree and some brush, and I drew my bow as low as I could because [00:05:00] that was where the brush was, below my waistline. And then I lifted my bow into frame. And I think when I lifted my bow in the frame, one of them saw me, I think it putted, but they just took too long to to make their mind up.

And the bird that I was fixated on was facing away from me. And I thought if he's between 25 and 30 yards, Which I was pretty confident of. I didn't range it. I didn't have, I didn't have the ability to move that much. I was afraid they were gonna see me. I was pretty confident where he was standing.

That's where he was. So I I thought if I put my 30 yard pin on his vitals and I hit high, I'm gonna hit him in his spine or his neck and I'm gonna kill him. And if I miss left or right, I'm just gonna miss. But I was pretty confident that if I would just gap my pins in that orientation I would be fine.

And I have pretty close pin gap with the setup that I had. So I was sure I wasn't gonna drop too much. So I settled in, let it fly, and I [00:06:00] heard the thud and I saw a Turkey hunched up and, all the other birds scattered and they're carrying on and they're running and flying.

And I was nervous that I didn't put a good shot on the bird. I had no idea where the arrow hit. I just heard it was all, and it started. I walked out to the edge and it started running down through, and it was trying to take off and it ran hard and I was like, oh, you gotta be kidding me.

Tell me I wounded this Turkey. So I ran across the field and I got to where I last saw it go out of this plot and nothing. I'm looking around, I'm like, there's no sign of this Turkey at all. I'm like, what in the world? Maybe it's under a bush. Did it, is it trying to hide from me? Is this gonna be a rodeo trying to get this, I know that can happen with bow hunting as part of it, but I'm looking, far to close and I'm scanning something.

I look down in front of me about five yards and I went, holy cow. That is a lot of blood. And I'm not exaggerating [00:07:00] that. There was more blood on this Turkey trail than some of the deer I've killed over the years. I'm like how is thinking? How is the Turkey gonna survive through that? So I just started following the blood trail in another 10 yards and I looked down and there's the Turkey laying there dead.

I couldn't believe how far it went. It probably ran, oh goodness. It probably ran 40 yards and I hit it perfect. I hit it right through the center of the vitals back to front. The arrow came out right above when I took the Turkey breasts out it, right above that bone where you where the point of the bone is where you would filet the breasts off.

My shot was perfect and, it worked out the way I had hoped it worked out. I just couldn't believe how far it went. Yeah, it was bittersweet because I. Remember so many seasons of never killing one with the bow, having goof up hunting all season long, giving up partway through the season just saying, ah, stupid turkeys.

And now this year I literally [00:08:00] hunted three days and I killed two birds and I'm done. And I got all these big aspirations after that. I'm like, wow it's still early. Maybe I can buy an out-of-state license. Maybe I can go to New York or something like that. And reality quickly set in between work and family.

My wife had some stuff coming up the next few weekends. And I should say my wife has stuff coming up. My anniversary is actually May 20th, which falls on a Saturday this year. And before I get a whole bunch of flax saying, why would you get married in Turkey season? Bear with me. I got married in Spring because my wife first said she wanted to get married in the fall.

And I said there was no way that was happening. And then she said then I want a spring wedding. And I almost said, I this is no lie, I almost said, I bet my tongue, but that's Turkey season. And I bit my tongue was like, no, I would rather sacrifice spring Turkey than fall deer hunting.

So then I agreed to a wedding in May 20th, so I can live with that. But anyway, that basically those two weekends and [00:09:00] then you're up to Memorial Day weekend and we're out of Turkey season. It's hard to believe how quick it goes. Hopefully I'll get out, take some people out. I have some friends and family and stuff that we're gonna go here and there.

Hopefully I can catch up with them and just enjoy being out a little bit more. But yeah, I'm still got the Turkey itch, but I'm sure that'll quickly fade as I'm getting into the next phase of phase of life here may into June. But kicking on, staying with the the Turkey theme.

We have a repeat offender on as our guest this week. He was on last year talking turkeys with us. He's a Turkey hunting fanatic. We're speaking with Matt Dale from Dale Outdoors. And I reached out to Matt after my first kill because Matt was the first video I saw earlier this year talking about the wine.

You, if you listen to last week's episode with the bird, I killed, he, you heard me say that I used this call for the first time. And this Turkey came in very [00:10:00] quickly and really surprised me the reaction I got and surprised that I'd never heard this call before. And I texted Matt, I said, I said, th that got this bird?

And he said hey, that's great. He goes, we should do a podcast to talk about it. I'm like, absolutely. We talk about, Kind of the letting the cat outta the bag on a couple of secret weapons that people don't talk about. And really what this conversation entails. We're talking about calling turkeys in ways that nobody else is talking about.

Calling turkeys. I feel like every spring is who has the best yelp, who can make the most loudest vocal cackles and cuts and, get birds to fire up. Cause that's what we're all excited about, right? The fact of the matter is, in my Turkey kinda experience, granted I'm not the best Turkey hunter in the world, nor do I have the experience that many of you people might have.

But I have rarely had experiences of birds coming in like that to really aggressive calls. Does [00:11:00] it happen? Yes. Has it happened to me? Yes. But more times than not there, there's a Turkey communication going on and there's understanding and utilizing Turkey sounds as communication. And I think there's a lot that get a overlooked in spring.

B, don't even know about like this Turkey wine I'd never heard about. And he talks about a couple other feeding under your breath type calls that he utilizes and explains in context. Talk about another interesting interesting call, and that's using a gobbler yelp. In the context of that, we talk about how to use the calls that we're used to using cuts, cackles, clucks, Yelps, using them.

Outside of Joe Blow's way of just yelping on a box call and making that same cadence and how to mix things up and sound like a Turkey and speak Turkey. And this is a great conversation. This is one when I was done with this conversation with Matt, I was fired up. I was ready to go Turkey hunting [00:12:00] and I think it will you too.

Hopefully there's something you guys can take away from this as we go into the second half of Turkey season. I know the second half can be challenging, it can be aggravating, but he gives us a lot of hope because he talks about how much he loves hunting the late season and how he goes about it and being patient.

So talk about an all around really good Turkey hunting podcast. I think you guys are gonna enjoy it and I don't wanna waste any more time. We, Told my Turkey hunting story. We gave you the show notes here. Real quick, before we go into this week's episode, we gotta give a shout out to our partners.

And first and foremost, we wanna give a shout out to Radix Hunting. Guys, if you're looking for trail cameras that just are great, are just great image quality, simple to use, and they're not gonna break the bank by any means. You need to check out Radis Trail cameras. They're Gen series Conventional cameras to me, have image quality that is hard to beat when you talk about [00:13:00] everything else in the industry.

They're m cor cell cameras also really affordable guys, really something that you can utilize a couple of and not be ashamed when you look at your bank account when you're done. So check out Radix Hunting and also want to give our shout out to Hunt Worth guys. This is the hunting clothing company that supports our show, and I have to say first impressions in the Turkey woods.

I was pretty happy. The first day I used the Elkin Pat Elkins Clothing, which is their midway clothing. I was a dummy and I didn't didn't have any rain clothing with me. I had a rain suit. It was just a gray rain suit, so I put that on underneath it and put my camo over top and I was relatively dry from the outside in with that setup.

And it actually wicked away a lot of moisture, but I was mostly wet from the inside out from sweating cause I walked eight miles. So midway through my hunt. I switched and then I put on my, my lighter weight. Actually, I reversed that. I had my [00:14:00] lighter weight on the first one, and then I put the Elkins pattern on later the Elkins clothing, but it was all in that disruption pattern.

And what I was really happy about was I just went minimalistic. I put a couple calls in my pocket and a couple shotgun shells and one on my way. And it was windy and chilly, and I felt very comfortable. And then both hunts that I had this year, I was, fully equipped in the disruption pattern.

It hid me well. I really liked the pattern. The clothing is comfortable. I'm saying this all because I truly think it's valuable in hunting like I used to be somebody who would just have clothing, just to have clothing people, it'd be a mix, match hodgepodge of everything. And the thing that I've learned having a system like Hunt Worth is how comfortable I am from the base layers out to the outer clothing.

Whether it was the the lightweight pants that I had, or if I had the Elkin suit on, I was really comfortable. So I went a little bit on a tangent there, but I [00:15:00] was giving you my firsthand experience with that stuff. I think it's worthwhile you can get a setup of clothing and not have to break the bank and have a million different pieces.

It's very versatile. So I'm done with my tangent. I'm done with our ads. Let's keep talking Turkey. Let's go to this Turkey hunting episode. Good luck to you guys the rest of this week. Let's get to it.

Hey, with us tonight, I've got a repeat offender. We're back with Matt Dale from Dale Outdoors. Matt, thanks again for coming on the show. I really enjoyed talking Turkey with you. So you're the man for the job. How you been doing fine, man. Been doing pretty good. Been just out chasing these old turkeys for about since about the last of March, but we're getting, we're winding down to the finish line is inside.

I've got three more weeks to go but we turned the calendar over from April to May, but this is my favorite time's Turkey hut. Right now, the late season's my favorite [00:16:00] time. It's so funny because you say you're winding down in Pennsylvania here. We just opened up, April 29th, and then we go the entire month of May.

Before we got on here, we're talking you, you said that you killed one this morning. I know last year when we spoke with you, we talked in, what would've been the early part? It was before our season opened. I know you'd been hunting, I remember last year you said it was the beginning half of the season was a little bit rougher for you this year, but you said you just killed one this morning.

How's your season been so far? It's been great. It's, last year, 2022 was really quiet everywhere across the country. I was, I wound up killing a few turkeys since we talked, but I usually do, but it was a struggle. But this year it's been back to normal.

I've handled 'em just about everywhere I've been, but it's it got rough there the last couple weeks, but we hit that, what I call phase three, where they're just locked down, henned up. It just went dead quiet, just about everywhere. They gobble on the roofs and then hit the ground as a rope.

But then, but the last three or four days, they're starting to pick up, which, which, like I said, when you turn that calendar over from April to May, [00:17:00] man, this starts getting good again. Yeah, it sure seems to be the case. I've run into many cases like where you'll be hearing birds and like I said I'm talking Pennsylvania here, like you'll be hearing birds before the season leading into the youth hunt.

You think, man, it's gonna be great. And usually opening week can be hit or miss. I've been in cases where we, we had birds doing what you want turkeys to do, and the next time it's exactly what you just said, it's that first week of May. They're hen up, they're not talking you, guys be talking.

Oh it's over. We hunt 'em too late wine whining and carrying on. And that's, I, you and I both know it's not the case, it's just you gotta put your time in then and everything else. No, I just talked to a guy. I don't know of it. I told just about all the local Turkey hunters around here about, I, I live in a small town and I saw a guy.

Saturday, yeah. Sat it's past Saturday. I saw a guy came, I was coming back in from Turkey Hut, and I was pumping gas at the gas station up here. And he was in camo, so I was like, Hey, how you doing? Oh, that, kill one? And he said, oh. He said, I'll tell you. I think he said, I think it's over.

He said, I [00:18:00] think they're back in their fall pattern. He said, I think they started breeding in February. And he said, I think it's just over. And I thought, and I didn't wanna laugh and be disrespectful, but I wanted to laugh and say, man, this guy don't know what he's talking about.

We're just getting ready to go into the next three weeks, especially here in Virginia, where I live. But the last two weeks is always good, but I'm never here. I'm always up north somewhere. But the, everywhere I go in May, especially from about the 8th of May to about the 30th of May, they just dial left and right for me, what I think has been really interesting for me. So like I said I'm definitely a deer hunter first, and I've always dabbled in Turkey hunting and for whatever reason this year for me, I don't know, call it networking and talking, talk in Turkey with people on our network or just hunters in general, things when you talk hunting, it just fires you up a little bit more.

And, with my job as a, an agronomist the past few years, I just always think I like Turkey hunting, but I got too much going on. I just have that mindset or try to have that mindset that it's just a bird. It's just a Turkey. It's not that big of a deal. But in all reality, I love [00:19:00] Turkey hunting.

It's something I, I've always enjoyed doing, and I just decided this year I wanted to invest a little bit more time and do a little bit better. And with talking with people, YouTube channels, that's how we connected in the first shot was I reached out to you from your YouTube channel.

I've been just. Paying attention. I don't think I'm a spring chicken when it comes to talking Turkey and understand, but I'm always willing to learn. I always wanna listen to what other people have to say and learn new things. And. I I killed the bird opening morning. I just had the the story on the sh on the show on last week's episode.

And I think one of the things that really helped me kill that Turkey or bring him in the way he did was from learning a call that I, first, I've heard it on other. Shows. I've heard it I've heard it on, television hunting shows, but I've never heard somebody use it and then explain what it is and how it's used a lot of and that's the videos you just did on the wine.

I've heard people on shows where, they'll call turkeys in and they'll come up [00:20:00] and maybe they got a goer, decoy out and that thing just attacks that goer, decoy and, I might hear 'em doing wines under their breath and the turkeys go nuts, but they're right in front of them and they never say why they're doing that.

Howard are doing that, and then they shoot the Turkey and it's just kind of entertainment. You, I'm not really learning. And you did two videos here recently on, one was a short and one was a tutorial. And I, listening to that, I was like, It just adds a new level of realism. But I still didn't know what it was.

So I wanna go back and Matt, when did you first hear about this call? Have you heard it in the woods? How the heck have you used it? Like, where's this been all my life? Oh, that's funny you mention that. Cause I get that, the two calls that I get asked more about every year and they think it's some new revelation, is God reopen and the wine, and And them two calls are not something new.

They've been doing them for thousands of years, turkeys and I learned it 25 years ago. I've been Turkey hunting 30 years this year, so 25 years ago. I've been Turkey hunting about [00:21:00] five years, and I was just getting to where I was a decent little Turkey hunter, a young guy, just, my early twenties just trying to learn, what I was doing wrong and all that.

And I was having a problem getting turkeys, unhung. They, I could get 'em into about 60, 70 yards, 80 yards, just outta gun range. And my, my buddy Alex Rutledge from verse three, Missouri told me about that. He said hey, try this. And he's a master, collar in Turkey Hunter. And man, he showed me the wine 25 years ago.

I was just in my, just a, young twenties. And man, I just started doing it one day and it absolutely turned him turkeys inside out. And I can't tell you the times. That I have had govers 70, 60 yards just outta gun range. Or maybe hung up in some brush or maybe hung up on the private property.

Or, something you can't hunt and you can't shoot over across the fence or something and you start whining to 'em. That doesn't work all the time. No, nothing works all the time. Anybody that tells you anything's gonna work all the time is lying. [00:22:00] Nothing. I've seen some God wars where you whine to him, like the one this morning, he just turns around and goes the other way.

Won't even pay no attention to it. But. I would say on a scale from, as far as estimate, I would say 60% of the time you can whine to a GoBoard and it just absolutely, like you said, it just turns 'em inside out, man and what happened to you over the day is usually what happens in a lot of cases.

Yeah, I've, like I said I've heard turkeys do some cool things. I've been, I've had some really cool Turkey hunting experiences from getting under them in the roost or at fly down or flying up to roost, when you're deer hunting and, I've seen some fights. I've never seen one breed, but, I've been fortunate that I've heard a lot of really cool Turkey sounds.

But what I haven't done a really good job of doing is then taking those sounds and trying to, Apply some of those sounds in my hunting game or practice them or know what's the appropriate timing to use 'em. And there's folks like yourself out there that do a really good job of breaking that down and [00:23:00] really just instead of making Turkey sounds that so many hunters do.

I think a lot of people, and I would include myself in this group, a lot of people make Turkey sounds to make 'em gobble. And if you find one that's in the right mood, you can call 'em in with Turkey sounds, but actually communicating and understand. And I felt like the bird I was talking to, like I, I had something in my mind of what was happening.

And this was a, an 11 o'clock gobbler. I thought he was alone and I cut hard to him and he gobbled and he was excited. And I used the wine the way you described like, Hey, I'm a hen I'm looking for love. And he wasn't running, but he was, I. You know how they get in a mood where they've got something on their mind and they're just walking fast.

He barely took the time to come into, go into strut and come out and he was back to walking and he walked right into my lap and it was one of those, it was the first time I ever did it, Matt. And it was like, is it just that easy? Like what just happened? Yeah. I've had it happen so many times before.

It just it's amazing. I've had God where's absolutely hung up out there, [00:24:00] and they wouldn't even budge and you start whining to 'em and, a lot of people will tell you that it's there's two thoughts of on it. Some guys will tell you it's when a hen is mad and she's upset, I don't really believe that because I can't see yers getting that turned on by, by something that makes a HN mad.

I personally. The second train of thought's, kind of one I go with. I think it's something that Iin does when she's ready to breathe. Like when she's ready to squat for that GoBoard, right when she's ready to say, Hey, come on over and I'll squat for you. I think that's what it is, but a lot of these sounds you're talking about, and we're getting an advanced stage of calling, but a lot of guys will go out there and this is, and I'm guilty of it.

You're guilty of it. We're all guilty of it, but we'll all go out there and it's a clock, a guilt, and a perb. That's basically it. Maybe throw a cut in there every once in a while if we're good enough on a mouth, car slate or whatever. And we basically have four calls. Now them four calls will kill turkeys and them four calls will, back turkeys every year.[00:25:00]

But a lot of these turkeys that are pressured. A lot of these turkeys that are henned up, a lot of these turkeys that have been pushed around, especially on public land you're going to have to finesse 'em. And I call it finesse on a gobbler. It's kinda like in bass fishing when you're trying to catch farm and bass and you gotta lay that bait.

You can't throw a spinner bait in there. You can't throw a crank bait in there. You can't throw something heavy and splash water. You've gotta take that worm or lizard or whatever and just lay it right in there without making a sound. And it's called finesse fishing. Some goers are just finessing, it's really just like you're finessing them.

It's you're giving them something that they're used to hearing every day. But the only difference is you don't hear it as a hunter because these hens, what I call doing it under your breast stuff, they're doing it so soft. You don't never hear it like you do a, like you would've cut or a yelp or a, a loud So what these goers are hearing every day is these wines the wheel wheels, the [00:26:00] little wheel feeding calls.

So if you can put a wine and a little wheel and maybe a little do it what I call, do it just them little bitty under your breath type sounds when he's out there, under 80 yards sometimes that's all it takes. And the guy out here that's just plucking per and yelping, sometimes that goer ain't going to break for you, but another guy that can do them things, like you talk about the wine, sometimes them gobbler that you would never kill with just them basic four calls when you throw just a little extra.

Under your breast stuff like the wind, the wheel wheels and stuff like that. It's all it takes, man. They just break and come right on in. Yeah, and I think one, one sort of aha moment I had with Fat Hunt, so that bird was, I'm gonna guess somewhere between a hundred and 150 yards.

And I was on a ridgetop and he was down over the lip of the ridge a little bit. So when he first gobbled, I could tell he sounded farther. And I made my calls and. Knowing he was farther away. I [00:27:00] thought it was 11 o'clock. I thought, what do I have to lose? I don't got much time left.

And I just thought, I'm gonna throw one of these in there. And you can, if you want to do a call, by all means you're gonna do it better than I do. But I was gonna do what I did here. And like the way I, you described it and some of the other people that I've listened to describe it, it's low and under your breath, like you just said.

And I think I actually, the call I had was real raspy and it was a new call to me, and I flipped it upside down to get a truer sound and I just went.

Or something like that. And I think that's all I did maybe a little bit longer. And it was under my breath, that quiet and he gobbled to it. And I'm thinking he heard that from over a hundred yards away. So not only was I thinking, okay he, I did this sound that I've just, first time I've used in the woods and he answered to it.

But the thought I had was, okay, all the birds I've worked over the years that have been somewhere between 50 and 150 yards and you're doing exactly what you just talked about, those yelps, whether [00:28:00] they're loud yelps, soft Yelps, clucks and purs and whatever. I was never doing that subtle in between.

Communication let's you, and that was exactly what I just said. It's a natural thing. And it never clicked for me. And that bird, it took that bird and a couple people like yourself telling me this to go, wow there's I'm, I just missed something in Turkey communication. Now I feel like I'm onto something.

I learned something. Yeah, and what you're saying is so true. You're having a conversation with that Turkey and calling is so much of course, a part of it. And when you get into the calling aspects of Turkey honey, you don't have to be a world champion caller.

You don't have to even be a great caller. Sometimes you can do the godless call and get one to Goggle, but then. Then you gotta get, and that's what I've always told people, is you've gotta start getting better every year. And I'm not talking about you have to be as good as one of these, world champion callers because I'm definitely not.

But I, learning the vocalizations and learning the how to sound real [00:29:00] is what it's about. It's not about, sounds better than me. It's about, does this sound kind of real to a hin Turkey? And what I would challenge people to do is not just listen to your favorite caller, but get audio of a real genuine hin Turkey, which is on YouTube.

Get audio if you have to, and get video. Find these real hens doing this that people has recorded, and then practice that cuz that's going to teach you more than anything. Yeah, absolutely. So continuing on talking about Turkey communication. We were, when you were talking about the interpretation of the wine, you said, some people say it's when a hen's agitated and then others would say and you would be fall under the category of a, of something that's like a, it's a breeding call.

One, one call. And I want your interpretation of it. One call that I've seen, it's the same call, it's the same sound, but it's used in different context, is a per, I've heard hens per, and it's, it's a fighting, it's an [00:30:00] agitative thing, but then, they'll pur under their breath and cluck when they're feeding.

So it's a feeding call too. So whether it's a per, whether it's a wine like. Have you experienced, or do you have any thought process on the different uses of similar calls and stuff like that? Yeah, if she's if she's mad, that's, they wanna fight it does sound like a per, and then it is a per, but it's it's more fighting, and that's a good call to use if a goer hung up too.

If it, I've did that a couple times, LA actually last year I had a goer hung up. It was in late season. I had a goer hung up, and he was just over the hill and I couldn't get him to move no other way. I tried everything. I tried whining to him, tried, will, will to him. I tried scratching the leaves and all this stuff.

Nothing worked. And so I just picked my slate, call up and I thought let's try this. And I started doing the fighting program with my mouth, calling the slate call too. And buddy that broke him, here he come. So I think sometimes it's, you gotta play on that dominance and that pecking order.

So fighting per is a good call to, to learn[00:31:00] which is, basically you're just purring a bunch and being agitated, but when you get into that soft, like you're talking about that under your breath that, per, that's just the contentment call. She's out there, she's just content.

She's telling everybody, all the other turkeys, Hey, everything's okay. I don't see no danger. I don't sense no danger. Nothing's here trying to get us. It's okay. But, scratching the leaves is great when you're purring. Just paint that picture out there because he can hear that out there, 60, 70, 80 yards even.

He can hear you scratching the leaves and turn. But you gotta remember, I tell one thing, one thing I hear is people pur too loud. You know that, they wanna pur too loud and tens don't em. Again, you barely hear a per how, if you think about it how many times in the woods hunting have you heard of hen wine or perb?

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Reduce your inputs, build your soil, and maximize the quality tonnage for the wildlife in your area. Find out more about this system and get your seed@vitalizeseed.com and be sure to check them out on Instagram and Facebook. I, to answer that question per, I've heard them per numerous times, but I think, I'm gonna say 90% of the time was in an open field food plot situation where they were within 50 yards of me.

And I heard that. Yeah. I'm not saying I haven't heard it in the woods. I'm sure I have because I've spent plenty of times in the Turkey woods, but wines from an, from a real in-person situation. [00:33:00] Gosh, I'm trying to remember. Recall, maybe I did. I've seen I've seen hens carrying on and strutting in front of my hen decoy and doing dominant things there, and they make some crazy sounds.

But to hear a wine and, you, one thing as I'm answering this question I'm formulating another, you were talking about a wine versus a wheel. I don't know what the difference is. I've heard people use a wheel and say it was a wine. Is it what's going on there?

What's the difference in that form of communication in your mind? No, I think I, it's kinda I think too, it is a lot where you come from, like some new, something southern hunters won't say, or Western, whatever. Some people think it's a wine. I personally don't, I think a wine is what me and you are discussing.

A will is just a feed call. It's something that do, when they're feeding. A wine is when she's getting ready to breed. She wants a, he's ready to do something. But a wheel is just she's out there, she's picking. Just imagine that hen up there picking grasshoppers or picking grass and she's just, wheel will will, will.

Or I've heard the do it, [00:34:00] the like sometimes I've heard the will do it. And I'm just saying that because that's what you would say on a mouth call. I can do it will, will. And so when you it's just painting that picture of that Turkey.

When I was in Alabama back in a few weeks ago, I was in Alabama and started Turkey season in Georgia, but then I went over to Alabama. That's what broke that Turkey man. I worked two hours, two hours on that Turkey to get him out. And he was within 60, 70 yards of me for two hours. And he would not budge.

He did not, I was sitting right on the edge of a food plot and he did not want to come out in that. He stayed right in inside the tree line. And I couldn't move no further. He was too close. And I tried everything. I tried everything. And I went quiet on him. I tried letting him go four or five times and called to him, sometimes that works.

I tried scratching the leaves. I tried everything. And he stayed right there within a. 50, 40, 60, 70, I could hear him spitting and drumming. I could hear his, when he would gobble sometimes he'd be so close, I could hear his chest rattle, and I'd hear his feathers [00:35:00] shake the ground. And I'm thinking, why won't this Turkey come out in this, and I started doing the wheel wheels and that's what broke him. And he finally, after two hours, he finally come out, but he thought that HN was out there and it sounded. Real to him. And I started whining to him a little bit, then I started the wheel wheels and that broke him. And here he come.

And I shot him at, I shot him at 15 steps. Yeah, those are the ones you like. And they're nice and easy and in your lap, the and the other video I think you had, you said was was that in Georgia? Cuz that bird, when you started whining him, man, he just fired up. Now, was he gobbling like that beforehand or was that just a flip of a switch?

Flip of the switch? It was just a flip of the switch. He would gobble like maybe one or two times and then he would get real spacey and maybe gobble one or two times later. But man, when I started whining to him, it just flipped it. He went nuts. He went crazy. Yeah. It's just a, it's just a bag of, it's just another trick in the bag.

And when you go out there, and I've seen this so many times, when you go out there with basic knowledge, you'll kill a Turkey [00:36:00] eventually when you go out there with three or four calls, Yelp per clutch, sometimes it's all you need. But for these old finicky turkeys, you're going to, you're going to get your butt kicked more.

We're all going to get it kicked. Every year we're all gonna get it kicked. Now I get mine kicked all the time. But, You're going to get a kick more and you're going to be more frustrated if you don't improve on them. Low sounds, soft calling will kill you. More turkeys than any loud calling.

And especially right now, we're getting ready to go into the late season so the later that it gets in May the more softer I'll go. Very rarely will you find me up on a point somewhere at, at eight, nine o'clock in the day, Jess ba I just don't do it. I'll just go through there and sound like a hand that's just moving through there and when I get one to respond, I'm soft.

Calling him in. Soft calling will kill you more Turkeys and. I know we all like to get loud. We all like to locate 'em way off and go run after 'em and chase 'em. [00:37:00] But when they're not doing that, you've gotta tone it down as so many people. The one thing that people tell me that hunt with me, like sometimes I'll go with subscribers or, for my channel or sometimes I'll, have an invite for, someone to invite me to their place or something.

And the one thing that people are so amazed is they say, what I've learned more the last few days hunt with you is how loud I'm calling. I'm calling way too loud. And they just can't believe that I call that soft. And turkeys can hear it, but like you said, they hear it. And they know where you're at, onto that volume of calling.

You I don't know what your interpretation of it would be, but I've been with Turkey hunters that talk about, oh, you're overcall for the situation. So then I think about low calling and I think how much of that can they hear? So my question to you is overcall a lot of the times something that people would interpret because it's overcall in a loud volume, but calling is something [00:38:00] turkeys naturally do in a lot of cases, and you can, hens talk a lot, but it's under their breath.

So I'm trying to understand, okay, if I'm gonna call under my breath, can you overcall under your breath if it's like a feeding call type stuff, or do you know what I'm, you know what I'm, I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to ask or not. No I understand and I really don't, I'm not gonna say you couldn't, but man, it would really be hard.

Okay. It would be hard. It would be hard to overcall under your breath. Because, and this is where that, a lot of people get on me every year. I'll have, not being disrespectful, but I'll have a lot of, old timers or people that's been ventil just taught for years that turkeys are call shine.

There's no such thing as a call shy Turkey that turkeys are not call shy. That's just the most ridiculous myth that Turkey hunters believe in is call shy turkeys. It doesn't make any sense. Turkeys here are the turkeys every day of the year. Spring, summer, fall, winter, all every day they're [00:39:00] communicate with one another.

So they can't be call shy. So we got this belief that they hear that call and they're outta here because they're, they know that's that's not real and that's just not real. That's just not true. They're not call shy. They're human shy and they're predator shy. And they're idiots shy.

Yeah. The idiots you have to deal with, especially on public land that don't have no clue what they're doing. That's who you got. That's what makes 'em in educated. But I think you can overcall if you are, if you're really getting loud, you cutting so much. I, man, I hung, hang with a guy one time years ago.

All he wanted to do was cut because every time he would cut this Turkey would gobble. And cuz it was a shot, gobble, it wasn't a, oh I'm waiting for you, get over here, I wanna breed you. It was a shot, gobble, just like you do an alcohol, a crow call. And every time he cut he would gobble. And that's all he would wanna do.

It's just, and I finally told him, I said, man, you're doing that way too much. You need to stop. And that was long before I had doing this professionally. And this was just when I was a young, a young boy out there. I said, man, you're doing this way too much, but. [00:40:00] We want to hear that Turkey respond to us, but you gotta remember something.

And this is so important, especially for people listening tonight. A Turkey don't have to gobble in order to respond to you. He responds by other ways when he don't gobble, but you can't see him because of the, he's in the woods or he's over a dip or whatever. But when he hears you calling out there 70, 8,000 yards, you know what he's doing.

Most of the time he's putting that head up and he's going and he's strutting. What's he doing when he's strutting? He's responding to you. He doesn't have to gobble to attract to him. So a lot of times we want that gobble, and that's what we judge Turkey hunting on, but, When you can just not get so caught up in the goblin.

I love the go. I love the goblin too. And I wanna get him to goble, cause we all enjoy that. But people will say, they're just not like last year in 2022. They're just not goblin. They just ain't goblin. And I went through, I went, I wound up killing I think eight or eight or nine gobblers, I can't remember.

But the entire [00:41:00] season and I'm gonna tell you something, about four or five of 'em come in dead quiet and didn't even know they was on the place. I don't care if they gobbled or not, I'm gonna kill 'em anyway. You know what I'm saying? You don't get hung up on the goblin but the moment you get hung up on the goblin man, you'll be back at Hardee's at nine o'clock saying it's over, it's done.

It's done. And it's just not true. But I don't think you can overcall, I'm not saying you couldn't, but man, it would be hard doing that soft stuff. You could do that all day long cuz that's what hens are doing. That's really interesting that you say that, and I think that's so good. I think the ideology that many people that go Turkey and I've said this before on the show, and I'm gonna say this again.

I believe there are Turkey hunters and I believe there are people who go Turkey hunting. I would classify myself as somebody who goes Turkey hunting and I've learned that, myself and friends, we love that idea of running a gun and getting a bird to fire up and working him in and doing exciting calling cuz it, it's, it is exciting hearing a bird running and we all love that, right?

But one thing I will [00:42:00] say I spent the first probably, I don't know, 10 years of my Turkey hunting career, I guess you'd call it. Hunting them with the bow. Cause I wanted to kill one so bad with the bow. And what did I do? I sat in a blind and I waited and I called and I waited and I didn't kill hardly any turkeys, but I will tell you, that taught me patience.

And I tell you what, one thing that I've used now whenever I'm Turkey hunting in general, is I'm not as quick to up and run and move just because I don't necessarily need to be. I just need to be patient. And sometimes waiting things out works. And I think now learning this, the, different forms of communication stuff, it's just another thing.

And just to not be running and constantly moving and trying to strike a gobbler up and gotta work that bird y not getting them to play the game you want 'em to play, but actually just being a Turkey hunter and understanding turkeys and doing Turkey things and killing them on their game, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Absolutely. I've always said when you feel like you, especially in the late [00:43:00] season, if you feel like you've set. You felt like you long enough, set 20 minutes more. Look at your phone or your watch. If you still wear a watch and just say, 20 minutes more, I'm gonna stay here 20 more minutes, or 30 more minutes, or whatever.

And many times them 20 minutes is what pays off. And if you'd have got up and moved, so it's a mental thing. And it really is. Cause man, the faces, you're sitting there at the base of a tree, you're your butt starts hurting, your back starts hurting man. You sit there and you start getting your legs, not your legs starts getting stiff.

You wanna get up, move and you think the grass is greener somewhere else, but the turkeys are there. If they're there, the signs there, they're there. You just have to be patient and I agree with you. We all love that rip roar and goblin, Turkey, but sometimes they ain't going to do that.

Now the one I killed this morning, I don't, I hunted him seventh. This is the seventh hunt for him. Not straight cuz he was in Tennessee and I'm in Virginia and it's an hour and a half to the farm where I hunt. But I hunted him opening a weekend April 15th and the 16th. So that was [00:44:00] two hunts. I was on the same bird.

I was on him the next weekend. That's two more cause I'd go down on the weekends. And that was two more Saturday Sundays. Then I was on him a third weekend, another Saturday, Sunday. And then I finally killed him this morning. So seven hunts and every. Every hunt he was in almost in the same place, but he was so hard to get on and he would roost in different trees.

So you didn't know exactly if he was over here. He was over here, but he was in the same area. But this Turkey was the most I don't name turkeys or deer. I just don't, I just never got into it. But sometimes if I had one to get under my skin, I'll give him a nickname, and I named this Turkey quirky.

He was the most quirkiest thing I've ever seen. He was a four year old. And I was thinking this has to be a subordinate two year old that scared to death or he's just a weird. Turkey that I, he was 25 pounds and an inch and a quarter spurs 10 half inch beard. A big, huge gobbler. Mature gobbler.

But brother, he never had a hen with him. He's never strutted, I've never seen him in strut. [00:45:00] I've never, but he would gobble like crazy on the roofs. But the moment he hit the ground, he would take legs and just go, man. And he wouldn't pay no attention to you. He wouldn't pay no attention to no calling.

You did nothing. So what do you do in a situation like that? You're sitting here calling to this Turkey soft calling, loud calling tree calling, everything. And he just hits the ground. He just takes off. And it's like what is this bill? He wouldn't strut, his head would be just as red as Jake's like a fall Turkey.

He, you could just tell he wasn't excited at all. And So basically I just thought, okay, my colon ain't working, so I'm gonna have to do something else. And I just started trying to think of ways to kill it. Almost killed him. Sunday. Almost killed him this past Sunday. But I said, okay, I'm getting closer.

And then this morning I pulled an old trick outta the bag and wound up taking him out with me. So it was crazy though. But chose to show you, you can't just depend on one style of hunting. Is the trick something that we're gonna keep in the bag for another Matt [00:46:00] Dale video? Yeah.

I'll let the cut outta the bag. I'll probably actually this, when I put all this video together of killing him I, I was headed, but what I did was he roosted in. He would roost over here whether it was 60, 70 yards to my left, or at some mornings he'd be over here to my right. And then at three or four mornings out of about seven mornings, there was about four mornings that he was right on this one little, what I call a null.

It was just a little old hump, but it was right on the edge of this field. The field's 200 yards wide, so the moment he hits that field, you can't get to him. He's just booking it, he's just out of there. And and, but if you could catch him inside the timber, he'd have to walk out of that field.

Most of the mornings, like I said it was half and half. He would be right on the edge and he'd pitch you out in the field. So I'm thinking I'm gonna have to catch him in the timber. There's just no way you gonna kill him. I put a decoy up and I'm not a big decoy person, but I even tried that this couple weeks ago.

I put a decoy out, he come out in the field, looked at it, and he just took off. And I was going, this is crazy. Never strutted nothing. [00:47:00] And so long story short. I walked in there and I just seen them big trees in it on this. No, and I said, man, he's on this nu and the only trees that he can roost in is these three big ones right here.

I'm still seeing rosing, these little bitty skinny ones. So I just, what I did was I found there was a big old tree, about 40, 50 yards back from them. Three great big trees. And so it's about 70 yards from the edge of the field where you walk into the woods to this tree. So what I did was I knew I was gonna have to get in our pitch dart very early and get right underneath me.

Now, I wasn't gonna shoot him off the roof. I don't believe in that, but I was, you're going have to get right under this Turkey because if I can catch you here, he's going to have to fly down and I'm gonna kill him as soon as he hits the ground. Getting in there is the problem cuz it's so open, it's just wide open.

And so what I did was I I went. To the edge of a field. And I marked that tree that where I was gonna sit. And I went to that tree and I took my foot and I [00:48:00] started scraping a big old dirt pass. I took all the sticks outta the way, and I just scraped a big look like a dirt bike pass all the way to 70 yards to that tree where I could go in there, find it and walk up that dirt path and get in there without making any noise.

No sticks, no breaking, no leaves, no nothing. And so I could get right underneath it. I did that Sunday morning, but he was over here. He was too far over here and he was about 60 yards from me, but he was just too, and then he pitched right behind me and he went right out in the field, took off and almost, but I walked in there this morning on that dirt path and I said, sooner or later he's gonna be on the snow.

And man, when he gobbled, he was about 40 yards from me. And I just I pulled my cap down like this and I just looked up and I never could see. But he was right there. And And man, he gobbled like four times on the roof, pitched down. And when he pitched down, he pitched right down under the hill.

And all I did was just a two or three clucks and maybe a soft little Yelp tree, Yelp, let him think I'm stealing a tree gobbled one time. [00:49:00] And he just started walking. But man, when he started walking, he was booking it. I'm talking, he was getting outta dodge, but he went behind this tree.

And when he went behind that tree, I turned around real quick and when he came out, which was cool, it was a luck because when he come out from behind, that tree was 25 yards. When he come out from behind it, I had just moved and he caught the last part of my movement and he throwed the brakes on and it looked like he'd seen a ghost, but it was too late.

Yeah. So I had that and I shot him, but. I guarantee you if I'd have been back there 30, 40 yards, I'd never killed him cuz he would've hit the ground and took off like he does every morning. It was just the weirdest tur and when I went up, picked him up, he's 25 pounds. He's a huge hook spur Turkey, he's a mature gobbler.

And I'm going, what is the deal with this Turkey? This is the craziest thing, because a Turkey like that, you would think he'd be out and field strut and get never hint around him and just displaying and just, you would think he'd be like a normal gobler man. He was absolutely the most [00:50:00] scaredest.

It was almost like he had no hormones whatsoever. And so what do you do? You gotta figure out a way to get super tight on 'em and, making you a path works if you know the area he's in make you a path and get into it. Cuz you can't make any noise whatsoever going in, even in the dark.

You can't, cuz they'll fly off in the dark. I've had it happen to me. They'll fly right. In the dark. I was just gonna comment on that because, you talking about making a path during the day when they're not there. That's so good because I've been in those situations in, in, in multiple ways.

On one half I've been in situations where I climbed up in a deer stand in the fall and it's, I know that I wasn't completely. Silent. Yeah, I know I made a little bit of noise, the sun starts coming up and, I start hearing rustling in the trees and looking there's birds roosted right above me.

How did I get under these turkeys without them pitching? And then I've had the other times, the other end of the spectrum where I go Turkey hunting in the springtime and I have an area I picked out and I know they roost in this general area, but this is where I want to be. And I think I can get in [00:51:00] there quiet and it'll be pitch black and all of a sudden it's really?

It's pitch black? What is going on here? I can't believe those suckers will do that. But then I've heard people that do get into 'em when they're in the roost. And I always think, how the heck do you do that? How do you do that? Don't they see you? Don't they? What's going on? It's hard, man. It's one of the hardest things you'll ever do.

I don't like doing it myself. I, I like the old fashioned way of setting back 70, 80. Sometimes I've even set up 200 yards away from 'em on the roost because. I want him coming and looking for me for a while. And if it depends on how he is gobbling, if he's really gobbling hard and I know he's by his cell, sometimes I'll set 150 yards away from him and I want him to come because the closer you get to that route.

Now, I wouldn't call this morning. I wasn't going to call to, he hit the ground and then I was really going to be, careful how I called cuz he's so spooky. And but I've had times where you'll get 60, 70 yards from Mao and you'll sit there and we'll start working him and he'll fly down and just get in his strut zone [00:52:00] because he thinks you're coming to him.

And I want him coming, looking for me a little bit. Now, sometimes you gotta adjust, but man, I killed one back three weeks ago. He gobbled hard on the Ros. I think it's the 12th of April. Gobbled hard on the Ros. Man, he flew down. But I stayed back about 120 yards from him. I could have got a lot closer, but I just stayed back about 120 cuz I wanted him to come looking for me.

I knew he was by himself the way he was acting. And buddy, it took him about an hour and a half, but here he come, he just come worked him in on a string. But That's what we all like, but every turkey's different and you can't hunt this you can't hunt a Turkey the same way.

And I get so many questions and it's fine, cuz it just means people's watching and they have value, my opinion. But I get so many questions from guys, and gals they'll write me and say, Hey, I've got this Turkey doing this. And hey, I got this Turkey doing that.

What should I do? And it's hard for me to answer that because I don't know. I'm not there, I'm not listening to it. I don't know what kind of train you're hunting. I don't know the situation. I mean it [00:53:00] all depends on the terrain, the situation. It depends on the time of year. There's so many things and that's what makes Turkey hunting so hard to teach is because there's so many variables.

And what, and you'll tell, like me, where my videos are educational, I'll teach one thing on one video and then three or four weeks do something totally different. Cuz that's what the situation called for. But that's why I've always said you gotta have more than just one way of Turkey. Like you was talking earlier setting in the blind decoys.

And, not knocking anybody at hunts like that, but you're not really getting an education on Turkey hunting. You're getting, it's, you'll kill a Turkey eventually, but you're not really understanding the art form of Turkey hunting. And I have people all the time, and I'm not knocking anybody and anybody's listening.

I don't wanna offend nobody. And any way it's legal in your state. I'm all for you. But, I just, I don't like reaping and all this spanning stuff because I think it destroys the art form of Turkey hunting. It's just, you're not learning nothing. It, you're not learning how to Turkey hunting.

You know what I'm saying? That's my [00:54:00] opinion. And when you're just sticking a fan out there, walking out into a field and shooting a GoBoard 10 yards, What are you doing? Really, what are you doing? You're chasing an adrenaline rush. That's what you're chasing. The same reason why we like to hunt turkeys when we find that bird that wants to play the game wants to come into a cutting hand that's excited, that's goblin, that's strutton, that's doing all the things turkeys do.

You're mimicking that, but you're doing it out in plain day for a bird to see. And they're mad. They're agitated at a subordinate. Gobbler is challenging them and they're gonna come running in. And a again, I would agree with you that if it's legal when in Rome do is the Romans. But I would agree with you that there's something to be doing.

I can't lie, it's not legal to do that in Pennsylvania. I know people that have done it, but I, my interpretation of the Pennsylvania laws would say that's illegal. A and I'm sure people would challenge me on that, but that's just my interpretation anyway. I would love to just experience it.

I would love to experience a gobbler coming in, running and wants to kick your butt, but yeah, you're not learning anything. I said [00:55:00] about bow hunting and sitting on a blind and stuff. I would say the vo I learned cool vocalizations. I've had great experiences. It taught me patience. But I do agree that when you talk about Turkey hunting as an art form and how turkeys move, like you're just, you're sitting in a le you're sitting in an open area for a bird strut or a feeding zone, same thing.

You're learning a piece of the puzzle. And I think, in my opinion, now that I've gone back to, Just trying to learn to be a better Turkey hunter, not using that one specific form. I think spending so much time sitting in a blind and hunting that way has taught me certain aspects of Turkey hunting that most people don't get on the other end of the spectrum when they're just running and gunning, trying to find a hot bird.

You know what I mean? Oh yeah. I, and I'm not saying that you can't learn nothing. You you could definitely that but I think, like my dad's generation and my dad and all the great Turkey hunters of the past, they, they knew calling and they knew birds, and they knew behavior, and [00:56:00] they knew things well.

I think our generation, cuz we're about the same age, we've kinda lost that. We know a lot of guys just don't have no clue about behavior or what turkeys do. I get asked about go reopening, they're like I don't even know what go is. Why? And it's man, I learned that when I was a kid.

It's like we were taught that and but anymore it's decoys blinds set on a field and you'll kill a Turkey eventually and you'll learn a few things doing that, like you said. But you're not going to learn how to kill turkeys constantly. You're going to kill 1 1 2 a year maybe, or, every once in a while you, but you're not going to learn how to go and kill turkeys constantly in different situations.

And I'm not bragging, I'm not the world's best Turkey hunter by any means. I've killed a bunch of, I've killed a bunch. 30 years. And I can tell you that I'm confident enough I can go anywhere in the United States and you put me around some goblin turkeys. It may take me a few days to [00:57:00] figure it out, but I'll figure it out eventually because turkeys.

And you're going to learn goble behavior. I've had people say, come up here to so and so on public land and try that. You ain't gonna do it. And then I go and do it. And then that, it's you can't do that on public land. You can't do that. And it's yes, you can.

Turkeys, or turkeys, they don't know that's a public land. They don't, it's like deer hunting, they think that deer like Reid size oh, publicly can't go. And it's like they, it's, they don't know. They, they don't know. All they know is pressure, right? That's all they know. There's something over here that's not over here, but them big bucks are on public, just like they are on private.

And the turkeys are on private, just like they are on public. It's. You know what I'm saying? It's, they're, it's not that Turkey on public, and I know this makes some of you public like guys mad, this public land guy's mad. Cause you won't think your God's gift to Turkey hunting, but you public land Turkey hunters are no better and no greater than this guy over here that's struggling getting his tail kicked on private.[00:58:00]

Because most of the turkeys that you're killing on public, you're hunting the outside perimeters anyway, during right up next to Farmer Jones' fence and you're calling them off private on the public. So is it a public land Turkey or a private land Turkey that you just shot? He, because they live on both, you know what I'm saying?

Absolutely. Yeah. I feel confident in the one that I killed was a, was probably a public land Turkey cuz I was hunting in a block of like 60,000 acres of state forest lands. That felt pretty good, but No. You brought up a good point. I want to circle back. We were talking about gobbler helping and we're talking about Turkey communication, right?

And I've heard gobbler Yelps many times. I've heard 'em spring. I've definitely heard 'em in the fall. A lot of time when they're waking up in the morning, I've heard 'em yelping and then gobbling and carrying on. And I've heard Jake's yelping in the spring pretty commonly. So I've heard that. But in my deer hunting mine, in my lack of what's the word I'm thinking of?

Critical thinking. Lack of critical thinking as a Turkey hunter. I haven't really used it in application for spring Turkey hunting. And, somebody [00:59:00] like yourself who ha I'm curious a gobbler yelp or just the realism in a situation, like how are you using that call to. Add realism to the situation or what's the application in which that might be worth trying?

Henned up GoBoard baby. Okay. Henned up Go. When he's heed up out there and he ain't breaking for nothing, he's got 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 girlfriends around him and he ain't paying no attention to me. And I and I'm trying to get a him fired up that lead. He and Sheep ain't no attention to me. I'll gobbler yell at him.

I'll challenge him and I'm, it don't work all the time, it's like anything, nothing works all the time. But I have called Adult Gobler away from four or five hens and watch his head absolutely go blistered red and get angry and you start gobbled, yelping, not Jake Yelping, but Gobbler Yelping just lengthen out them Yelps, and four or five note long Yelps.

And deep Yelps. And man, he's he'll actually strut and he'll, and you'll see his head just turn and he will [01:00:00] actually walk away from them head sometime and he may not leave them like, Whole lot. But let's say here's the way I like to use it, cuz I've done this a few times in my life. If he's out there at a hundred yards or 80 yards and he's got some, hes with him.

He's just outta gun range. I'll gobble you up to him because if he comes, he may not come the whole way in because he ain't gonna leave them hens too far. But let's say he comes 40 yards to investigate what new guy just challenged him. Guess what, if he's an 80 and he comes 40, what is he dead are now with TSS loads?

Like my 20 gauge man, I don't even know a 12 gauge no more. I stopped talking with 12 gauge a long time ago. I'm shoot these apex loads with his 20 gauge and 50 yards is no problem now. Now I, I don't shoot 50 yards cause I don't have to. I used to get 'em into my lap, but 50 yards is no problem.

And so if he's, even if he's a hundred and he comes, say, 45 or 50 [01:01:00] yards, he's 50, he's dead. So he may not leave them hands totally cuz he gonna stay. But if he comes halfway, then he's in your lap and you go, you going, you're gonna kill him with today's loads. So go reopen is great. It works better in the fall.

I agree. If you're a fall Turkey hunter, which I know Pennsylvania is a huge fall Turkey hunting state, which I wanna come up there someday in fall Turkey hunt. But it's great in the fall cause that's when they do it mostly, but they do it in the spring too. And the same reaction, you gotta remember the same reaction you're getting from a strut and decoy is the same reaction.

You're getting the goer yelper, you're challenging with a strut and decoy. When you goer Yelp, you're challenging. You're challenging the pecking order. So when I see 'em hen up and they won't come to nothing else and he ain't breaking. Hey, I wanna do something. I've always said this and I, and if you don't listen to nothing else I've said tonight, folks, listen to this deer, Turkey.

It don't matter if they're walking away from me. If I've got a grunt call and I got rattling horns, if that deer's walking away [01:02:00] from me and that's a buck I wanna shoot and he's going away from me. I did this last year in Indiana, kill the big buck in Indiana. He was walking dead away from me. I ain't gonna just sit there and go, he walked away.

I'm gonna do something. Hey, what have you? Gotta lose? He's leaving anyway. I'm gonna do something. I picked him round, horns up, banged him together and man, he circled come right around and shot him eight steps or, shot him right under the tree stand. But Turkey hunt the same way. If he's walking away from me and he's leaving, what do you gotta lose?

Throw the kitchen sink at him. Whatever trick you got, he's cuz he ain't coming anyway. And you could do that one thing. But too many guys get so nervous about calling and oh, they're call shy. I don't wanna call too much. Hey, if he's leaving, you better believe I'm gonna do something. Cuz I ain't gonna sit there and just watch him walk away and me say, I should have done this.

No, I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna do something. And many times that'll turn him around. And break him to me. Yeah. And going back to, to gobbler up real quick, so I've heard it, you've heard it, I'm sure there's people that live listening that might not have heard it, might not exactly know [01:03:00] what we're talking about.

First of all, my curious curiosity, my, my first question would be, what's usually your go-to call for doing that? Me personally, what I've done when I gobbler Yelp is I use a mouth call. But instead of putting the amount of pressure that I put on for a hen call to get that real high pitched, shorter duration yelp and RAs it out, I put less pressure on the call and do more of a chuck and make it as long as I possibly can to chuck chuck.

And four or five Yelps is how I do it. That's, Okay, that's perfect. And that's exactly how you need to do it. The way you explained is perfect. I like to do it on a box call. I got my box call out. I think a box call does the best golfer Yelp out there myself. You got a good box call and man, I just love box calling Gober Yelping and especially in the fall, spring, and you get that noise out there.

You get that, that pitch. You can, if you got a good other side of your box and it's a deeper side but on a mouth call, yeah, you're exactly right. [01:04:00] I don't try to go now I have heard God works in the fall. I've heard 'em go 15, 20, 30, Yelps great, now, but in the spring mostly it's a, oh go.

Four, four or five notes, 3, 4, 5 notes. But they know the difference. When you drag that, when you, what I like to do is get a real raspy call, which, so most of my calls that I use, I don't like a raspy call for him calling. I just don't. You just don't. It just, it's not what I really hear.

So most of my mouth calls are very high-pitched and very clear note. But I'll have I have a, I have one mouth call and they're not sponsored. I, I've got my own call sponsorship, but this is not even one of theirs. But I do carry it because it does work sometimes. And I'm out there in Turkey on, I ain't out there to make people happy.

I'm out there in Turkey and I got this one call that's a four recall. It's four res and man, it's deep. It does the best. It feels like a biscuit in your mouth trying to blow it cause it's, [01:05:00] but man, it does some good go Yelps. And actually it comes outta your state. Denny Govis. Denny Govis yeah I had his son on the show.

Did you? Yep. It's a Denny Govis four readed call and I get one every year. Every year I've got one. If I need a new one, I order one just for, forgot where y'all put and Jake open it does the best man. It just no. Yeah, I've had 'em absolutely go to pieces on it but yeah, man. And I'm just gonna give a shout out here that basically what I'm doing is what Denny de Govis and Dick Kirby and Billy McCoy and all them great old timers, Ben Lee, what they did back in the eighties, I'm just doing today to a new generation.

I'm just teaching. Cause Denny Govis and all them guys, they wasn't about, Hey, look at me, kill a Turkey that was about teaching you how to kill a Turkey. And I just don't think there's enough of it out there. In fact, and I'm not bragging on myself, but before a lot of these videos, I was the original.

I was the original educational on Turkey hunting, and probably I'm still the one that, that probably gets the most attention as far as educational wise, but, [01:06:00] There wasn't anybody back even eight, nine years ago that was educating people on how to kill turkeys. But when I started my channel, I just said, you know what?

I don't care if people see me kill a Turkey or not. I wanna teach you how to kill a Turkey. You watching me, you said it earlier, you watching me kill one angle, teach you nothing. It's fun, it's entertaining, but I want to teach you. And you telling me, man, I wind that GoBoard in. That just makes me tickle because hey, that's something that you can pass on.

To another generation and you can pass on to other people. And another thing too, so I had this awesome experience. I feel like I've told this story a thousand times in the past, since it happened. Yeah. And I told it to people who are experienced Turkey hunters. I told I can think of two or three experienced Turkey hunters that have hunted longer than I have.

And I told 'em, I said, I learned about this call from a fellow I had on my podcast. He has a show. I saw a couple other people talking about it, and Turkey hunting shows and whatnot. So I tried to apply this call and their response to [01:07:00] me was, what's that? I've never heard that. And these are people that have killed, literally have killed hundreds of turkeys.

You, hundreds of spring turkeys. But they said, I've never heard that. And I said to me, I'm scratching my head. I'm like, Oh wow. Is this just something like localized weed didn't here, or is it just, I don't know. It was strange. So learning something new and applying and I just, I, it's, it was just exciting.

That's all. Its to it. And so many people don't know. Like I said they go out there with four or five basic calls and they'll kill turkeys eventually if they get on the right one. But, that's what I wanted to do. When I started my YouTube channel when I started it, I actually, before I started it, I went.

I went to every Turkey channel I could find. I went to everyone available at that time and watched every Turkey hunt on YouTube I could find, and just seen what they were doing. And the one thing I saw in common ain't knocking nobody cuz there's some great hunters out there, but I just saw blinds decoys setting up in a field [01:08:00] setting up, just putting decoys out, shooting a Turkey high fiving, calling 'em thunder chickens and ridge runners and all this stuff.

And trying to be a, trying to be a bone collector, wannabe. And I just saw this over and I thought nobody's teeth telling people how. Why did you set up there? Why did you call like that? Why did you pick that spot? Why did you do this? Why did you that? No, but see, I grew up in an era where, when you rented a hunt video, a Turkey video in the eighties and the nineties when you rented a hunt video, it maybe had three kills on it in 90 minutes.

Three kills, four kills at the most, but it was 60 minutes of hardcore. What I'm doing now, teaching people how to kill turkeys, you don't have that no more. It's two or three minutes short little hunts, five minutes on tv. And what on TV is so fake and fraud because they're just trying to sell something and it's not really what happened when they killed the Turkey.

They just went back and edited to make it look like that. So it's just really discouraging that we're ra we're seeing a generation that really don't know the art form of calling [01:09:00] and how to hunt. And when I hear. When I hear you know that and when I see people, and I've got so many this year, probably more this year than I ever have, first time Turkey picks, people struggling for four or five years, six years about to give up on Turkey hunting and just selling everything they got and they finally killed that person because they said, man, I found your videos and I've been binge watching it.

I've found out so many things I was doing wrong and thank you so much. This is as much your Turkey as it is mine. When I hear stuff like that, it makes me realize we don't, we're not telling people how Turkey hunt. We're not really teaching. We're just showing them, oh look what a great Turkey hunter I am.

And I don't care if people think I'm a great Turkey hunter or not. I don't care if they see me kill a Turkey or not. Cuz when I was out there this morning, I killed that big Turkey. Guess what? It was just me and him. I didn't care. I don't care if the video don't turn out, nobody sees it. That was mama.

That was what I enjoy. But what I can do is take what I learned from that Turkey and pass it on to you. And [01:10:00] then when you run into that situation, you go, oh, hey, let's make a path and let's go whenever and sit down and get ahead of him. And so I just think that we're missing the education part of it and, I just, I, it's really discouraging to me.

It just really is. But I'm starting to see a few more channels, trying to do some educational stuff, but it's just not there yet. But I'm just so into trying to educate people on how to kill turkeys. I think it's gotten better. I, I do think from, like, when I was a young kid watching the Outdoor channel, the Sportsman Channel, things like that till now with, social media, YouTube channels and stuff I've seen a trend of it getting better.

I do believe that, but I agree it is still. There is still some gaps. Sticking with realism and calling we already talked about this, that we have three or four calls, they're the same calls we run, we try to find this bird. So tell me a little bit more or what comes to your mind or anything at all as far as like adding realism, even within the [01:11:00] calls that we have, I feel like a Yelp, you sit on, if I've sit, I've done this before, sitting on public land, sitting on a bench, and there's a point out in front of me and all of a sudden I hear back the same amount of notes, cadence, volume.

Yep. Duration, yep. All of that Yelp. And I think that's a very common Yelp looking, hen looking, here I am, where are you kind of thing. Or I'm, a, an assembly, yelp kind of type call or something like that. But Turkeys use a Yelp in different. Context volumes, duration.

So j just onto that, with the calls that we already have in our toolbox, what are some ways that you think we, a lot of people miss the mark as far as communicating with those calls? The let's just start with the, cause that's the most famous Turkey call. I can, he was talking about public land.

I can just about nine outta 10 times pick out a hundred from a Turkey. It's, by the way, he is Yelp. A Turkey does not have the same exact cadence all the time. It just don't, it's not real. A he. If you look at [01:12:00] a, he, when she's yelping, and I'm just talking about soft Yelp, not even assembly, Yelp, just a soft yelp.

She's going through there and I don't know I would do it, but I'm afraid the audio would cut out. But I wish we'll try give it a shot. Okay, so this is let's do Mr. Hunter on public land.

He'll go another 50 yards,

he'll go another hundred yards.

It's just the same thing because he's in a habit. He's in a habit of doing that. And that's not really Gu A Turkey does a, he's out there and she's when she's yelping, just during the day, soft yelp or whatever, listen at her. She's mixing it up. So if you wanna sound real, you gotta mix it up.[01:13:00]

Hear what I'm doing. I'm just mixing it up. I don't know how good that comes through. It came through perfect. I was adjusting her sound so we wouldn't cut out. So I think I came through pretty well now. That was really good. Yeah so you're just, and that's really low cause I don't wanna your ears off, but you're just trying to, one, two, do a single Yelp.

They do a single Yelp.[01:14:00]

So you're just mixing it up. But you'll hear Mr. Bob over here, another hundred yards. Yeah. And it's just yep, here we go. It just don't sound real. Now he'll get a Turkey to go eventually, but if you wanna put that realism, mix it up, be that just in your mind, see that hint out there, just moving through there in the middle of the day, just, trying to yelp her up a boyfriend.

And so I think the Yelp is the biggest mistake. So many hunters make cuz they just don't put real into their yelping their purses. Hold on a second. Mad not to cut you off, but I want to ask you a question related to the Yelps real quick. So with that, people are, you were talking about people going and doing that hundred yards Yelp.

Yep. Yelp. Yep. Yep. A hundred yards. Yelp. Yelp. Yep. Yep. And you're trying to find a bird in that case and most times. So my question then is, with what you're doing with the Yelps then, do you use that exact same form of yelping and communication if you're [01:15:00] trying to look for a bird on that same ridge? Yep. I certainly do.

Like I'll mix it up. I just go with what I feel. But if I'm, in other words, if I get, let's say I go and let's say gobbles at it. I'm not gonna sit there and five minutes later go and five minutes later, I'll mix it up and sound real. So I wanna, I want to, I wanna sound as real as I can to him.

And so I just think that it really makes a difference instead of just doing the same thing. But see, it's just like with anything, humans are a creature of habit. So anything we started getting used to when it's just over and over and over. So yeah I'm absolutely mixing up the Yelp, but it's so natural to me now.

I don't even think about it. See it. I don't even think about do I need to mix it up? It just comes so natural. But when you, when and when you do it, it'll just come natural to you. But man, it sounds so much real. Listen to a hint on audio or a video and watch her. Very [01:16:00] rarely will she do the same exact thing for 10 minutes straight.

And you were going into purs. I want you to keep rolling with this. Purs, a lot of people will just do the same purs. And this is where you got to, practice different purs. You've got a basic pur, which is, sometimes all you need.

And that's just, a basic per.

And that'll work. That'll work great. Sometimes, you want to go really soft, go really soft and just almost, almost gurgle it, try to, one of the best ways to learn it, I'm not really great at it cause of the way my ULA is and everybody's mouth is different or, but if you can learn to flood your tongue or the back of your throat and just use your throat.

See, most of my mouth calling don't come from my lips. If you watch me mouth call very seldom when you see me moving my lips. And I learned that actually years ago. Watching Denny Govis, because if you're watching Denny Govis, most of the times he don't lose it. It's coming from his throat.

And I actually learned that by watching one of his old [01:17:00] videos in the eighties. And a lot of your great Turkey callers like Billy RGUs and a lot of these other guys, very seldom they move their mouth. It's, they're, it's all coming from here. Because think about it, that's where Turkey's coming from.

It's coming outta here. And the pitches are different because she's moving her body, she's walking, and as she's walking, pitches are changing. And so you wanna learn how to, do a lot of things. If you just, let's go do a, if you, just the same way

that'll kill a Turkey, eventually, but mix it up. They don't just do that one cluck, they do bubbles. You know what you call.

This call is about had it. This call is about had it, but anyway, you wanna do that Whit? Quit. Quit. Just say, Whit, quit quit, quit. Just and sometimes what I call a really soft bubble, if you going softer, [01:18:00] you're just going just doing your mouth going, just saying put and just going really soft.

They do that all the time. So it's just learning different ways to do the same call and just changing the pitches and changing it. Little things like in fact, long story short, I killed one I killed one last year. I wit, I did the wit all the way. From the time he was coming in, that's the only thing he'd really go get fired up is when I started Whiting to him.

And I just, he, and when I start clucking to him, like regular, he wouldn't pay much attention. But when I start whit to him and scratch him, whit tore him up, man, big Ohio Godward call him right in. And so it let the Turkey tell you what he wants and then if, go from there. If he wants your per go for it.

But if he don't try something. And one thing I'm gonna add to this, so the sounds you're talking about, I like. I've heard turkeys do different types of [01:19:00] sounds and then I think, wow, I don't know how to do that. One thing that's really helped me and this is gonna sound strange, I was a little bit of a cheap skit and I'd go, okay, I got one or two new mouth calls this year and I didn't want to, I didn't want to go more than that.

But one thing that really helped me was when I started to. Invest in multiple different cuts of mouth calls and figuring out what I was comfortable with and understanding the different cuts and using different angles of my mouth and different pressures and playing with them. And I started to learn, oh my gosh, I can make those sounds, but what, for the longest time, I would make my clucks the same way.

I would make my Yelps the same way. Cuz that's how I knew how to do it on that mouth call. But I wouldn't change it up. And I will say there's folks like yourself and other social media people that have done calling tutorials and thought, I've thought, I never even thought of turning the mouth call sideways slightly in my mouth or putting it to one side of my tongue or another.

I've done different pressures, but it's always at the same [01:20:00] spot or using, different air channels or what, or like all this stuff. And I started hearing people do that on a mouth call. Then I started practicing and going, oh my gosh, I sound more like a hen. Absolutely. Look at the cut.

Look at the cut. A cut. When people do a cut, a regular cut a lot of times people will do a clock or cut and I know it's a hundred just by the way he's cutting sometimes cuz he get up. That ain't what a hand does. You don't do that. Listen if you're hearing that,

that ain't what, listen here, don't do that. What's she doing? She can't hear a go's response. If she's doing that, what's she doing? She's going, she's putting a lot of pauses in there.

But see, she's pausing to get that response and but if you listen to a hand, she's not,

I get pickled hearing this sometimes and I'm going, oh my Lord, shut up. Stop. But [01:21:00] again it's trial and error, but you're right. Changing your airway, getting different cuts. I got some, I've got tons of cuts that and you find were the, like the wheel wheels and the wine.

In my opinion, I think if people ask me if I had one mouth call to get where I could do all that, I would say a ghost cut. A ghost cut's probably the best mouth call for most beginners outside of adults. Straight, double read to do a ghost cut is just so easy for anybody to wind whistle wh wheel wheels, all that because you don't have to put a lot of air when you start getting into your combo cuts and you start getting into your, triple reads and you start getting into your man, it can be tough.

You it's a lot of trial and error, but that's why you don't wanna practice that when you're out in the woods. You wanna practice that in January, February and drive your wife or drive your girlfriend or drive. Your kid's crazy. I've been keeping 'em in the center console in my car and doing 'em when I'm on the road for a long time.

It seems to be the most sane place to do it. But adding realism, like you were talking about cutting. I watched a [01:22:00] video of somebody cutting the other day and when I cut like I've done it a couple different ways and I'm not gonna cut cuz I'm not a good mouth caller, but I'll just make the sound like how I have my mouth, like I, I might go

or like how I have my mouth open versus clothes and where, how much I'm using my tongue versus my lips and stuff. Yeah. And I'm saying that because in, in my, to my ear, my personal opinion, what I've heard in the woods compared to what I can do I don't think either of those sound as good. As a hen.

And I heard somebody the other day saying, you gotta somehow find that happy medium in between and using your tongue and your lips at the same time to make that true cutting sound. And I heard him do it and went, that sounds like a hen I just heard fly down the other morning. It sounds spot on.

And me trying to practice it, I'm like, oh good heavens. It's like I'm learning how to call all over again. Absolutely. And none of us are too [01:23:00] old to learn, none of us are too old to learn. And I try to improve on things that I need to improve on. Cuz like I said, I'm not a world champion caller.

I'm a decent caller. I can kill turkeys and I can usually figure out, I'm. A scale from one to 10, I'm, I would put myself about a seven or maybe eight calling but I ain't definitely no 10. But I try to get better every year. And the things that I struggle with, like the, like the very gar gargly per I can do it, but I can't do it a lot.

Like after about four or five times, then I start it starts messing up, so I have to revert back to my lips. But I'm trying to get better at it. And but talking about the cutting, if you can learn how to say kick two, kick kick, a lot of times that's what really gets that volume out.

So it just, it's trial and error though. It's just trial and error. You just gotta, you just gotta get out there and practice it, but then let the Turkey tell you what he wants. That's the main thing. And then work him in, because and don't forget, just come, we're talking about mouth cause, but don't forget about a good slate call and a good box of call.

Don't forget about that, right? Absolutely. [01:24:00] Yeah, ma'am, we've been talking Turkey for a long time and I'm anxious to go Turkey hunting. So I'm going tomorrow morning, going Saturday morning, and I'm taking taking my sister-in-law Turkey hunting for the first time. She, I tell you what, Matt, she's the luckiest hunter I've ever taken.

So sh they bought this property and she said, Mitch, I want you to take me deer hunting. And I, this is no exaggeration, Matt. She has hunted three days and she has killed three deer. Now she might, it might have taken her five sits. She might not have got it in the morning, but she got an evening sit and she literally filled three of her tags this year.

And I said to her, I said, I said, I'm gonna take you Turkey hunting and said, and I just got a sneaking suspicion, your luck's gonna keep rolling girl, but we'll see. You were talking about 20 gauge too. I have a 20 gauge eight 70, and I thought, that'll kick a little bit less.

So I I thought I, I bought a. I bought a box I, I saw a box of Winchester, double Xs thought, I'll try those. And shot it. I had an extra full Carlson's, Turkey choke in and it would kill a bird at 25 yards. But man, I don't think I'd wanna try it further than that. It didn't really pattern that well.

And [01:25:00] everybody's telling me, you gotta do tss, gotta do tss. So I broke down, I bought a box of tss and man, I was really impressed with it. But, the, my biggest gripe with it, Matt, is I don't think it kicked any less than my 12 gauge man. I'll tell you what I never, Scott, I was a tight, wide, too, and I don't wanna spend that much for shells, but I had a buddy that's in the hunting industry, he gave me three boxes last year.

He said, I'm gonna give you three boxes just to try 'em. I said, now if you'll give 'em to me, I'll try 'em. Son. I put, because I was hunting with, and I ain't not knocking long beard cuz they're great shells, but I put one in Apexus in my 20 gauge before season last year in 2022.

The first shot, I said, I'm converted. I'm converted. It's crazy and it's nuts. It's crazy to think of the loads that that them, I'm shooting a 20 gauge 5 65 choke Carlson choke 20 gauge stre and 45 yards with them. Apexes, I think when I cited my gun in, I think[01:26:00] I counted 145 shots in the head at 45 yards.

My goodness. Hundred 45 shots. And it just abs. Imagine that Alabama Turkey was 15 yards. It took the top part of his head off. And they just don't move like turkeys when you hit 'em with that tss, they just don't flock very much. It just, it absolutely knocks 'em out. And I mean it, once you shoot it, I know it's expensive.

People say it's too hot, but to me, and here's what I say if I'm gonna spend gas, money, hotels, traveling, going to different states, $300 tags, $200 tags, $150 tags, if I'm gonna spend all that time, money, and effort to go out there and Turkey hunt, I'm not gonna have it ruined by a 40 yard brushy shot.

I ain't gonna shoot in the brush anyway. But, sometimes you gotta take a shot that you ain't really. Totally pleased with, or you gotta let one walk at 45 because like you said, you're not comfortable past 35 with the long beard, 20 [01:27:00] gauge. No, I'm not gonna do it. I'm, it's worth it. It's worth that extra five, $6 for that one opportunity.

You get that when you don't get very often and to be able to capitalize. And I tell you right now, man I'll never go back. I mean I will. Absolutely. It's just like people call me a sissy pursuit, a scope on my shotgun. I said gimme a dress cuz I'm a sissy. Cuz once you go to a scope, you'll never go back to a be.

I promise you, once you go to a scope, you will never go back to a bead because with your loads and your chokes now you could just hone them things in. So Perfect. And I mean it's just, if it's shooting a little bit point of low here, point of height here, what you could just. Dial that thing into where you have supreme confidence and I will never go back to lead shot.

Absolutely. Will never go back to lead shot. Tss all the way for me, baby. And don't apologize for it. And when I go to, like I'm going here, I'll be leaving Monday, I'll be going to West Virginia, then I'll be going to Ohio, then I'll be going to maybe New York and then maybe drop down to Pennsylvania.[01:28:00]

But to end the season maybe if I fill out my tags really quick, look, I'm not going see, I'm not gonna go buy all that money or buy tags and missed an opportunity I could have had if I'd have had just a, maybe a five more dollars expensive shell. You know what I'm saying? That, the other thing that's pretty cool, I think the t s makes it a lot more capable for those those smaller caliber.

Smaller, smaller shotguns. And I think it makes the whole shotgun slam a little bit easier. Shooting one with a 10 gauge all the way to a four 10 Oh. Absolutely. And I don't even, like I said, they sent me a new 12 gauge. I'm sponsored with Stoger. They sent me a new, they sent me a new 12 gauge this year.

I've took it out two or three times just to make 'em happy, but I just don't hunt with it. I just don't hunt 12 gauges. Why, what's the point? A 20 gauge lighter. It's a lot lighter. As soon as they come out with 28 gauge, I may hunt with one of them and get some TSS to one of them.

Yeah. So definitely a game changer in the Turkey hunt. Now, the 20 gauge is the new King of Turkey shotguns. Yeah. It seems like everybody's going to it, and I haven't made the [01:29:00] jump yet, but I shot two with both of the 12 gauges. I ha I have a, just an eight 70 12 gauge that I've turned into my quote unquote Turkey gun.

And then I did kill one. I have my grandfather's actually my great-grandfather's model, 12, 12 gauge. I said, man I gotta shoot at least one Turkey with that gun, and I did one year. So I shot 'em with both my 12 gauges and I have these two 20 gauges. Maybe that's the next thing. Maybe I gotta shoot one with this.

So that's broke me into the, this next phase, I guess you'd say. Yeah. Awesome, man. I'll tell you, I love it. I, and like I said, it's just Turkey hunting has come so far, just since the 30 years I've hunted, and then my dad's hunting for 60 years and then, when I came along, I've been hunting him for 30, this was my 30th spring this year.

And man, just since I started, we didn't have, we didn't have all this, stuff when I started, it was just two and three quarter full chokes. And it's crazy to look and see where it's come from, oh, it is. And but anything that'll help you, it's I'll I say put it in your [01:30:00] arsenal because they're hard enough to kill like they are.

Yeah. Very good. Hey man, this has been great. This was a fantastic, like I said, one of those conversations is fire me up, but it's a learning conversation that, the whole communicating thing that's just so critical. So I'm, thank you for let me put your brain, Hope it helps somebody.

And I'd just like to give a shout out. Say if any of your viewers listening, go over to Dell Outdoors on YouTube and subscribe to you at Dell Outdoors. If you wanna hear a lot more this type of content and Facebook, Dell Outdoors on Facebook, Dell Outdoors on Instagram, so they can join me there and follow me all year long.

Yeah, please do, guys, because I know I do. And that's where I've picked up a few things in my arsenal. Matt, I appreciate your time. I appreciate what you do and thank, good luck the rest of the season. Or maybe I'll off the air here. I'll have to pick your brain on the, on when you might be coming through Pennsylvania.

Maybe I can connect with you, buddy. I like that. Okay, we'll catch you later.

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