Show Notes
In this episode, Chris and Dorge explore the evolution of arrow materials, discussing the historical context of arrows and bows, the art of arrow making, and modern arrow technologies. They delve into the advantages and disadvantages of various materials such as bamboo, cedar, fiberglass, and carbon fiber, emphasizing the importance of understanding the specific applications and contexts in which each material excels.
The conversation highlights the ongoing evolution of archery and the significance of consistency in arrow performance. In this segment, Dorge and Chris discuss the intricacies of arrow manufacturing, focusing on the extrusion process, the significance of aluminum, and the evolution of carbon arrows. They discuss how extrusion is very similar to pasta-making, the benefits and drawbacks of aluminum arrows, and the advancements in carbon fiber technology over the years.
The conversation highlights the importance of understanding material properties for optimal arrow performance. In this episode, Chris and Dorge Huang delve into the intricacies of carbon fiber and aluminum arrows, discussing the evolution of materials, the importance of resin in construction, and the impact of knowledge on archery performance. They explore the differences between carbon and aluminum arrows, emphasizing that while carbon arrows may offer longevity, aluminum arrows provide predictability. The conversation highlights the significance of understanding materials and manufacturing processes in achieving optimal performance in archery.
Show Transcript
Chris (00:01.059)
What is going on guys? Thanks for joining us here for another episode of the Wing and Sail Boys. I'm joined again by Dorj here and we are continuing with our arrow series. We are on to episode three today and this episode is going to be covering the progression of arrows basically from the beginning of time with that very first arrow way back in the day. Okay? Arrow materials, okay?
Dorge Huang (00:23.31)
I think I want to be more specific. It's about aero material. Because I think, and I think that yourself is more important than what most people recognize. Because each material when you build an aero have their downside and upside. And most people do not understand that each material, what does that mean? So we want to sort of devote some time to talk about how each material and how good and bad and what you can make them better. And in what way they are good and what way they are bad.
Chris (00:52.879)
Okay, that's great. Getting more specific with the material. So we're talking about the progression of aero materials today. I love that.
Dorge Huang (00:59.534)
Correct, mean, lot of people need to understand just because it's newer do not mean it's better. The word better was misused. It is better for something and under some situation. You remember, not one material is always better. That's not true. Because now we're not talking in size, we're not talking about shape, we're not talking about length, we're not talking in diameter or the size, which is size or weight. We're just talking about aerobuilding material.
Chris (01:05.36)
Right?
Chris (01:11.143)
Okay, so.
Chris (01:28.519)
Okay. Awesome. And I think the big, the big point that we're going to try to get to by the end of this episode is that with the progression of carbon arrows and the, and the progression of bows over, would say, you said that since 2006, right? So over like the last 20 ish years, give or take, bows and arrows have progressed, but the thought process behind what combinations of arrows and bows to use really haven't changed. And I think.
Dorge Huang (01:45.868)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:56.782)
All right, it is like, I think it's a lot of way people are stuck in the concept say, no matter what you got to be a VA or it's no good, or you have to be in line for or else you're no good in cars. But the fact is that each of them have its place. Just like you can like 40 do the EcoBoost to make the four cylinder better. Is it a better approach? In some cases, yes, but not in all cases. That's where a lot of adults like to point out. It's not just because you say,
Chris (02:08.785)
Sure.
Chris (02:21.521)
Sure.
Dorge Huang (02:25.58)
Aluminium is the best.
in some cases, absolutely, because the word best is very misinformed, because in what situation and for who, those has to come in together.
Chris (02:37.435)
Yeah, it's obj... Sure, best is objective, know, kind of like...
Dorge Huang (02:41.932)
Yes, not just you can actually test it and they are better in some way. I mean, just like you got a certain idea what see in North America hunting, this is what most people expect the arrow to be the best is that you will use it for white tail hunting, not more than 25, but 35 yards on a bow that not exceeding 70 pounds 30 inch straw. That's what how most people measure an arrow to be the best. But then.
Chris (03:07.281)
Right?
Dorge Huang (03:09.006)
Things got more complicated is that we have a bow that shoots 80 % net off, a recurve, a 55, that kind of bow. And of course, if you throw it in crossbow, the whole world's gonna blow it up.
Chris (03:20.251)
Yeah, you know, it's kind of like, and this one, this one should hit home for you, because you're, you're not far from Chicago, right? But it's like, it's like the comparison between Jordan and LeBron and who's the best or the greatest, right? And you're talking about two, two completely different eras, two completely different time periods. The game has changed so much and yet we still use the best to, to compare them, which is kind of crazy, you know, so.
Dorge Huang (03:26.881)
No.
Dorge Huang (03:44.684)
which is all stupid because he said time changes and rule changes. I mean, remember one of my, in college, of my roommates is the baseball team. He said in today's junk, Beirut would not make it. Not saying that he's not good, he's good for his time. I mean, they all beat the pants off me because I don't play.
Chris (04:04.571)
Sure.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, and it's the same, the same thing with bows and arrows, right? You know, what, what the type of arrow that worked on a bow in the nineties or early two thousands probably wouldn't fly with a bow that was made in 2023 or 2024.
Dorge Huang (04:14.434)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (04:24.736)
In most cases, it still would, but not ideally. But for some people, it is ideal. So it depends on how you use it. So let's go from the beginning of time so we can look at things a little bit better.
Chris (04:27.705)
Right. Okay. I hope.
Chris (04:37.691)
Sure, and let's start here with Bamboo. I mean, we're going back, we're going way back here.
Dorge Huang (04:40.844)
Yeah, the first arrow shaft in most cases in the East is always bamboo because it was a simple straight forward off the thing you cut and put some end on it, you put the tip, put some feathers, you're good to go. In the West is always cedar because cedar fibers are reasonably straight and in the case is very good. But cedar is not as thin, as flexible as bamboo.
Chris (04:56.816)
Okay.
Chris (05:06.289)
So were they used around the same time periods, just in two different regions? Okay. Okay. used on the same type of bow? Essentially a long bow, I would imagine.
Dorge Huang (05:10.191)
Actually they're both about the same time period, that's true.
Dorge Huang (05:17.646)
Yes, Moudanam Longbow, of course the most aggressive bow at the time, back then, would be the Turkish. The Turkish double curve bow. Just like, I always in archery, I always like to show people the fun facts. Do you know why the Turkish were in front of the Kuzay would do this?
Chris (05:24.646)
Okay.
Chris (05:37.969)
Well...
Dorge Huang (05:40.11)
It's not saying screw you, it's that I still have my fingers, I can still shoot you. Because at that time, what happened is that if the Crusades caught the Turkish, they'll cut this two finger off. So they can't do it. So they come out like this.
Chris (05:43.81)
yes!
Chris (05:52.133)
And I think that, yeah, and then it's actually, I actually just learned about this. They did the same thing with the French and the English or the British, I should say. I don't remember exactly the time period, but that's where the middle finger came from because they said if they, you they were going to beat the French and when they did, they were going to chop off their middle fingers. And when the French won the battle, they started throwing up the middle finger to show like, yeah, hey, screw you. You know, so that's really cool to that.
As we know, history repeats itself.
Dorge Huang (06:20.994)
Yeah, and then we look at the Japanese longbow. You know the Japanese longbow, the one you sit on the ground and shoot? It's called the off-center bow. The top is five to one ratio. The top of the bow is five times and one. So when you shoot the bow, you actually point the bow forward and then shoot. And the first release that was known to mankind was a Japanese hand glove. It is a mechanical release.
Chris (06:36.079)
Okay, I think I've seen those.
Chris (06:42.663)
That's cool.
Chris (06:49.659)
Really?
Dorge Huang (06:50.646)
Yes, you put the string right here, you clip, you open your amp, you let go.
Chris (06:54.836)
us that's cool you know they don't they still use something similar to that at this point
Dorge Huang (06:59.744)
Yes they do it, it's same thing. If you're going to do Japanese chando, chando means the art of arrow. Those are still the same graph.
Chris (07:10.011)
That's so cool. So.
Dorge Huang (07:11.586)
But then of course bamboo. Bamboo is actually a very good material but not all bamboo are the same. You need to find a bamboo that's about 23, 22, 64. That's the size that people find to be the best.
Chris (07:22.055)
Okay.
Okay, outside diameter we're talking.
Dorge Huang (07:26.966)
Yes, I was right. So 22 to 23, that whole size is what we use since the beginning of time. Till now.
Chris (07:33.295)
Okay, and bamboo naturally is hollow, right? It's a hollow growing.
Dorge Huang (07:37.23)
No, it's hollowed with ridges. And then the bamboo they choose have the least amount of ridges on the outside. And usually what you do that they went through a tool, which is a round shaving tool, and you pull the bamboo through it and then you get rid of all the notches.
Chris (07:43.579)
Okay.
Chris (07:51.503)
Okay, and it just ends up with a straight, hollow...
Dorge Huang (07:54.978)
with the rig reasonably hollow with the notches. And of course the downside to this is that from arrow to arrow based on where the notch is, the arrow will flex unevenly.
Chris (07:58.202)
Okay.
Chris (08:07.109)
Gotcha. Okay.
Dorge Huang (08:08.494)
Now actually, another thing that I cannot confirm is that the reason we got the Natchez exists, that's the reason they called it a node.
Chris (08:17.511)
I gotcha, okay, that's some cool speculation. I like that.
Dorge Huang (08:23.18)
And then of course, the how do you make that better? And then of course, the Western approach to make ultra high quality, call it your royal hunting bamboo arrows, cedar arrows, they will actually go through the same round of approach like the fishing rods. They will now fight the cedar and split into six through a plane and then bundle them together. So you got six triangles and then you tie them together.
Chris (08:49.392)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (08:51.512)
put varnish on it and that's your arrow. Now for the super lightweight ones, they even go as far as a fishing rod. They make the triangles, they cut the middle section off. So it's hollowed. See the arrows.
Chris (08:54.693)
So.
Chris (09:05.701)
So the first, okay, so bamboo and cedar, just to slow it down here for a second, bamboo and cedar came around around the same time. Bamboo was used in the Eastern hemisphere and cedar.
Dorge Huang (09:13.838)
Mm-hmm.
Not East, East, not East Hamlet, more to the East, which is like the Chinese, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, that whole section. And then on the European side, they all use the cedar. I mean, the American Indians use the cedar too.
Chris (09:23.429)
Gotcha. Okay. Okay.
Chris (09:34.125)
Right. So the bamboo naturally was somewhat hollow, similar to our arrows now. But the original cedar arrows were a bunch of triangles that were... Right?
Dorge Huang (09:39.138)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (09:46.126)
They were original straight. just, but in order to make it more even, they would cut it into triangles and then put them together, just like the way they did in bamboo fire rods, except it's simpler. And then for the ladies who want to shoot lighter arrows, that's when you go hollow. Now, but then the more expensive Japanese arrows, which I'm not sure that the Chinese may do that, but I have no historic record to...
Chris (09:55.879)
Right.
Dorge Huang (10:15.374)
I have not encountered with a stock record, but I know the Japanese go much thicker bamboo and then just cut the section of exactly and make them into arrow, which as far as that time period is concerned, is considered the most advanced arrow because you overlap the where the bamboo change from one section to the other. So it's very, very even. The weight is about the same. The performance about the same. mean, it's like this is where the Jandao, which is the art of arrow.
Chris (10:32.944)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (10:45.326)
becomes it. It becomes a true art form.
Chris (10:46.663)
Yep. Gotcha. Okay. So it was an art form, from the making of the arrow standpoint and also the of actual shooting. That's cool.
Dorge Huang (10:50.306)
So, mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (10:55.51)
and also about performance. Because now you've got aerodets consistent, you've got aerodets technically repeatable, and you get aerodets performance and lightweight. And they are recoverable. That means you can get it back and still using it because they're also durable. Because they're meant to flex.
Chris (11:12.229)
Sure, I can't imagine the bows back then were putting out outrageous outputs, you know.
Dorge Huang (11:19.808)
No, actually they do not. The only highest output bows are actually the Turkish bow because they are lightweight and they meant to shoot fast. The Japanese bows are not a fast bow. Because the Japanese bow technically have three different sections. The one you kneel, which is the django, the one you go on horseback, the one you stand and shoot. They are very different. I mean, of course, the one you go on horseback are the one that
Chris (11:29.905)
Gotcha.
Chris (11:38.919)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (11:43.655)
Okay. Right.
Dorge Huang (11:49.87)
curve like this, they have the highest performance. But just like those bows do not come close to what today's recurve, like the Black Widow and so on, they give a lot more power. That's the reason back then the most ancient bow had ridiculous poundage, 75 kilo and more, because they are not efficient.
Chris (12:10.163)
So they had to come, they had to fix that with the weight.
Dorge Huang (12:17.034)
Not to mention they are shooting a lot heavier arrows, a lot heavier weight. Now, those arrows in today's world, some people still like it. A lot of people use it and consider, I know a few guys that will build themselves an arrow in wood, or cedar, or bamboo, and then go and shoot a bison, that kind of deal. This is pretty much a spiritual experience for them. And as they go forward, now we go into more modern material, like steel tubing.
Chris (12:31.879)
Dorge Huang (12:45.742)
They make one time just like fishing rod. They used to make steel fishing rods, you know that.
Chris (12:50.663)
I didn't know that,
Dorge Huang (12:52.312)
steel rod, a piece of steel with eyes on it. That's where the initial fishing rod out of America is, back in the 1930s. Nothing more than a piece of steel rod.
Chris (13:00.081)
Really? Wow. How far we've come in 90 something years.
Dorge Huang (13:06.622)
yes, definitely. And the steel rod is great because the Chinese are using that steel rod as arrows. And that's exactly why it's called a bolt. Those are armor piercing, know that? Armor piercing, you know? And then the downside with this is that this do not have archery paradox. It is much technically, the mass of the arrow is the key point of penetration. Slow speed is not important.
Chris (13:17.755)
Yep, that's pretty cool. The original armor-piercing ammo.
Chris (13:32.731)
Now you and I were talking about... Sure. So we were talking about this before we got recording. We were kind of going through our show notes for today. And you had mentioned that the steel arrows were kind of made specifically for shooting from a top of a castle because you didn't have to worry about the... you were... When they were shooting from the castle, they were already elevated and oftentimes they'd be shooting a little higher too. And...
Dorge Huang (13:35.532)
It's math. It's not stockpores.
Dorge Huang (13:58.626)
You know, they just shoot at this guy and then loop them down.
Chris (14:00.551)
Exactly. that, essentially you're, you're hoping gravity takes over and pulls that, pulls that, the steel down, right? As it's heavier, it just hits like a truck. That's like, that's incredible.
Dorge Huang (14:09.038)
Right, right.
Well, actually, if you look at some of the old movies, most people, like the Chinese, especially the steel bows, are usually two-person bows. The person sit on the floor with their feet pointing up, pull the bow back, the guy put the arrow and shot it into the sky, and then you got a whole rain down onto the enemies. Because when you're aiming, you're not aiming, you're just blanketing it.
Chris (14:31.26)
my goodness. And just like.
You're just shooting enough to hope you throw shit at the wall and hoping it sticks, I guess.
Dorge Huang (14:40.238)
No, actually you got whole millions of people running towards you. If it just simply goes down, you're going to hit something. If not, you're going to trip them. Yeah, but that is where the slug force of most people will think of heavy arrow is. So the ancient people, the Chinese, the Indians have done that since, I would say, BC.
Chris (14:45.083)
Yeah? Yeah, exactly.
Chris (15:00.721)
So the idea of shooting a heavier arrow for penetration is not something new that's been used for centuries, essentially.
Dorge Huang (15:09.772)
Yes, but the heavyweight penetration in today's vote is actually very bad. You know why? Because the whole idea of today's is speed, so you can aim. And as you imagine, as in the older days, to compensate for the drop from arrow to arrow is out of the question. Because the variation is so big, no two arrows should the same. And that's reason when the Japanese seed that comes out, the Chinese seed that comes out with a hollow.
Chris (15:14.981)
Right.
Chris (15:26.759)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (15:36.736)
Now you're talking repeatable match weight arrow. That's where that error sort of happened.
Chris (15:42.424)
Okay, so when they went from the cedar to the hollow cedar, that's where they started paying attention to the behavior of arrows and trying to get consistency essentially?
Dorge Huang (15:50.306)
Because now you can trust that that's an arrow. Otherwise when you shoot how do you know the arrow is to behave?
Chris (15:56.145)
That's fair. So let me, sorry.
Dorge Huang (15:57.742)
Because see, you think about it, in the old cedar arrow, you have to wake them exactly the same, otherwise they take you to the same. You do not know how the spine's going to be. Because from stick to stick to stick, you can do some, that's the reason in old days you got that measurement to sort of bend your cedars and then make sure they're straight and so on. But then what is the spine of the cedar? Now you end up coming with a spine machine to find out the spine of the shaft so you know the behavior of the shaft. So you can get a group of arrow.
Chris (16:05.787)
Sure.
Dorge Huang (16:25.528)
that will behave the same when you shoot it.
Chris (16:28.473)
I got you. So let me, let me pose this question to you then. I feel like when I was growing up and I started, and I started shooting bows, I never ever, ever heard of tuning a bow, shooting your arrows, tuning your arrows, making sure that they're consistent. I never ever heard of that until four years ago. I would say when I started doing my own research and diving into it. if consistency from arrow to arrow.
Dorge Huang (16:31.886)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (16:55.921)
has been something that's been focused on for so long. Why do you think so many people or the industry has somewhat moved away from even focusing on that?
Dorge Huang (17:05.538)
the interesting is that people who did it do not want to pay. See, first of all, when you buy it in today's world since the 1980s, when you buy it doesn't matter how old are they?
They're not, they're, and most people tell you, just like I remember doing a Pennsylvania show, a guy told me, nobody should show over 25 yards. If that's your yardage, the difference in weight is really not that critical. I remember one time I was in Starbrook State Park, hunting with it. A father and son team. The father's quiver of five arrow. Not one of them are the same length, same brand, same material. Ain't they cute, here?
Chris (17:47.503)
That would drive me crazy. See, I know, and I know someone who wants like that. I know someone who has two different arrows in their quiver. They have three pins on their bow. The 20 yard pin works well for both arrows. And then the other two pins are 30 for one arrow and 30 for another. And depending on the situation, if it's thicker, you know, they're going to use a heavier arrow. If it's more open, they, you know, so they, they have two different arrows for two different situations and it works for them.
Dorge Huang (17:50.487)
No, I mean seriously.
Dorge Huang (18:16.696)
Right, and this is where, well, this is the same thing. Just like a really good hunter back in the American Indian days or the Chinese or Japanese hunter, they do the same thing. They shoot the arrow a few times to know exactly how they behave, then go and hunt. Because the whole idea is that, did you able to remember which arrow would do what? That was the killer.
Chris (18:17.263)
got me crazy.
Chris (18:33.488)
Yeah.
Chris (18:39.419)
You gotta put tape on it or something. Build them different, stain them different colors.
Dorge Huang (18:41.518)
Well, that's the reason they named the arrows. That's the reason they named the arrows and they remember the arrows. Even today's world, you should. Now, let me move back to the day. See that with the cedar and bamboo arrow, you are now found able to have material that's consistent enough that you can practice with a set and know how the rest is going to behave.
Chris (18:47.429)
Bye.
Chris (19:02.823)
Okay. And that was with which material you're looking?
Dorge Huang (19:05.998)
with split bamboo and split cedar. That means the hexagon base systems. Because now, like the cedar, you're able to match all the material based on choice and then engineer them together. And the same came with bamboo. You saw the notch right there. You cascade the notch so that the entire arrow behaves pretty much even.
Chris (19:09.241)
Okay. Yes.
Chris (19:19.428)
Okay.
Chris (19:30.849)
So this is kind of like the precursor to hand picking your components that you're going to build your arrow with essentially.
Dorge Huang (19:38.168)
Correct, because you want consistency, then you weight them, and so on. So for example, you've got a chunk of bamboo with this big, ginormous, you've got a giant bamboo that's about this big, 14 inch diameter, about say half inch thick. You cut the outer most section out in triangles and using that to build your arrows. So your material for all of them should all the same batch, and you cascade them, you build it, you're impregnating them and finally.
Chris (19:57.957)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (20:05.294)
You just send them and get you exactly arrow. So it's not unusual a really good arrow is actually not round. It may be hexagon
Chris (20:12.677)
Wow, that's, I never even thought of that.
Dorge Huang (20:14.062)
Yeah, then see biohexagon you also have one major benefit.
Chris (20:18.619)
What's up?
Dorge Huang (20:19.308)
Yes, you engineered this fine.
Chris (20:21.423)
Okay. Okay. And I don't even know if this is even in the same category, but does that have anything to do with, is that similar to like aluminum being extruded or not? Is that kind of like the same process or am I okay?
Dorge Huang (20:36.638)
No, it's not because now because of hexagon, the bending will always on a certain direction. So that after you find it is very consistent because the fibers are linear. Then of course, then we move to the next generation arrows and people who say solid fiberglass, hollow fiberglass, which does not work.
Chris (20:45.979)
Okay. Okay. So.
Chris (20:55.943)
Yeah. And that's, um, that's one of the more common ones these days. mean, whenever you go to buy like, uh, not common as far as hunting is concerned, but when you go. When, when I purchased, uh, two years ago now, I think we bought my niece, very first, you know, kids long bow and it came with fiberglass arrows, you know? So I feel like out of, out of all of the ones we've talked about, the fiberglass might be the one that more listeners are familiar with from the bamboo seeder and hollows.
Dorge Huang (21:04.492)
No, it's actually very common, you just didn't recognize it.
Dorge Huang (21:16.078)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (21:24.428)
Well, actually the fiberglass is still used consistently today. Carbon Express uses a lot of fiberglass.
Chris (21:27.589)
Right.
Chris (21:31.463)
in hunting and target arrows or are they okay? Really?
Dorge Huang (21:33.646)
Oh yeah, like the Maximus. They are very high in fiberglass. How do you know? Well, you've got one of the carbon express aeros, then you put it on the light on one side, you look into it, it's all bright. Make sure you remember, in most cases when you buy aero, it's not high carbon. What do you think the rest of the material is? Fiberglass.
Chris (21:46.375)
I had no idea.
Chris (21:58.553)
Wow, okay. All right, so Torch, tell us a little bit about fiberglass arrows then. That's cool, I like that.
Dorge Huang (22:04.43)
Fiberglass arrow in some cases is just like fishing rod. Fiberglass arrow are little bit lazier. They're also heavier. So a lot of people actually like it. And then not to mention fiberglass arrow are the number one arrow, technically the only arrow that you should use when you want boat fishing. Because under ATA standard, the boat fishing arrow has to be number one. Solid. It cannot be hollowed.
Chris (22:20.283)
Okay.
Chris (22:27.815)
Really?
Dorge Huang (22:28.75)
Yes, that's basic rule. The five-bucket arrow fit that bill very good. But then you set a fishing arrow. Yes, I designed one with go tip once. We're using the go tip big game hunter and put Vytron in the entire shaft. So the arrow will naturally not flex. And you have the weight that is two times the density of water, it will go through water like, just like steel arrows.
Chris (22:54.215)
That's awesome. Okay.
Dorge Huang (22:56.716)
So fiberglass have this place, it's still do today. And fiberglass in some cases is more durable. Let me think about it. Fiberglass is more durable if you don't know what you're doing.
Chris (23:08.561)
Okay. You mean from a, from a build standpoint or from a shooter standpoint? Okay.
Dorge Huang (23:12.182)
Not from the crush standpoint. Like when you bend the arrow really badly, fiberglass will recover easier than carbon. Because it got more flux in it and the recovery rate is higher. But that's not true anymore, depends on the construction approach.
Chris (23:24.028)
Sure.
Chris (23:29.991)
the construction of the carbon.
Dorge Huang (23:32.174)
construction of the, no, there's three stages. The construction of the carbon fiber, the construction of the cloth, and finally the construction of the arrow. So all three stages are different. And they all have impact. And that's the reason people say, oh, I carbon fiber arrows. I say, do you understand why some carbon arrow costs $3 a piece in Walmart with veins, knocks, and insert?
Chris (23:44.497)
Gotcha. Okay.
Dorge Huang (24:00.526)
while you can easily get some arrow with just a shaft for like $90 each. And they're carbon arrows.
Chris (24:09.745)
So if fiberglass is heavier, and as we know, one of the big things a lot of people like to hunt with these days is a heavier arrow, like we touched on earlier. And if fiberglass recovers easier than carbon fiber arrows, what's the downside to using carbon fiber?
Dorge Huang (24:13.902)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (24:27.63)
HAAA-
This, are way back in the 1970s, they had Spencer. And that's the reason Beeman come with a carbon fiber, they extruded. They simply carbon fiber go through a resin process, it's a sludge. And then they went through extrusion and they got the carbon arrow coming out. But the downside is that those carbon fiber arrows are dangerous.
Chris (24:36.294)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (24:55.18)
Because the fiber fiber of austenium, when you break them, it spurs. It exploded.
Chris (24:59.621)
Yeah, my brother learned that the hard way growing up. We used to shoot beam and arrows. That's all we shot growing up. And we loved them. But he didn't know at the time there was a small little crack in his arrow. And when he shot the arrow, the arrow exploded and a shard about four inches long went right into his hand, between his thumb and his corner. Luckily he was okay, no serious damage.
Dorge Huang (25:06.531)
Yes.
Dorge Huang (25:13.27)
Yup, you were disastrous.
Dorge Huang (25:22.85)
That's normal.
Chris (25:29.123)
I don't know that I should.
Dorge Huang (25:29.262)
Yeah, but that was where the material is. you know, if we talk to Rick McKinney, the owner of Carbon Tech, he would tell you, those extruder arrows have one of the best performance arrows you can buy because the spines are absolutely linear. Because when you flex it, the more you find the spine, the spine is not going to move.
Chris (25:42.575)
But which we would.
Chris (25:47.739)
Yep, and which we've talked about in, I think it was the last episode where the spine of carbon arrows these days are not linear. They're more wrapped around the shaft, so to speak. Okay.
Dorge Huang (25:59.778)
Yeah, actually, you know,
As you know, then we moved to extra before carbon. We've got a very important material we have not talked about.
Chris (26:11.771)
Yep. And before we get into that, just want to ask a quick question. We've mentioned in the last couple of episodes and this episode, we've mentioned the process of extrusion a couple of times. What is, what does that mean? What, what is the extrusion process or can we simplify that?
Dorge Huang (26:27.886)
Extrusion process is you're going to mold. Just like we make, if you know extrusion is the same thing you do with pasta. You're going to mold. You put this glue in, glued or material in it and you squeeze them and then you come out this side and then now you've got a shape. So technically you're going mold a circle and you're going to mold in the middle and then when you push the material you'll come out a tube. That's extrusion.
Chris (26:46.768)
Okay.
Chris (26:53.511)
I gotcha. Okay. I gotcha. Okay.
Dorge Huang (26:56.14)
What's the downside of extrusion? Well, you better control your thermal and control your shape because extrusion, if you do not control all those, that tube is not going to be straight.
Chris (27:07.215)
Right. And if I'm not mistaken, when arrows are made, isn't it a common practice essentially to just extrude one really long piece and they just keep cutting it as it comes out?
Dorge Huang (27:19.754)
All right, that's exciting. Actually, that process was actually the right process if you make aluminum arrows.
Chris (27:28.411)
but not for cargo.
Dorge Huang (27:30.402)
Carbon is not ideal. I mean, is today carbon, can you make it? Answer is yes. The downside is that I won't sell it because it have all the downside with what carbon does. But then with the new material behavior and so on, it may not be that critical because the new material, the bonding of carbon, the splitting of the carbon fiber and so on, and not to mention like some of the new extruder carbon, the carbon fiber is much shorter.
Chris (27:32.207)
Okay.
Chris (27:46.727)
Okay.
Chris (27:57.561)
Okay. So the, for the listeners, another quick example, the way I'm picturing it in my head is, you know, you go out, you harvest a deer, you come home, you start shoving it through a meat grinder. You push out, you push this, this clump of meat in, and it comes out, you know, in the form of whatever your meat grinder grinds it up to be. Yep.
Dorge Huang (28:15.094)
Yeah, it's very much like a Sardis makeup.
except it's hollow in this case. I mean in the case of a fiberglass, it's solid. But see, this is where the aluminum is now. Let's talk about this process, which will give you an idea of how it is. Carbon fiber is extruded in most cases, not rolled. Your first beam and arrow, they're extruded, they're not rolled. Your aluminum arrows are all extruded. But then in the case of Eastern,
Chris (28:23.846)
Okay.
Chris (28:42.117)
All that's true, okay?
Dorge Huang (28:47.33)
They did one of the best jobs in aluminum, no doubt. The good thing about all the extrusion is that you can make an arrow as long as you want. It is a capital intensive process. So that means after you make the machine, you got the material down, you can make a lot of that cheap.
Chris (29:06.694)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (29:09.016)
This is good for a company like Eastern, the way that Beeman approaches it. I know that in some time, carbon force used this in some of the arrows, and so does carbon impact. Carbon impact is the same owner of the original Beeman. So he still used a similar approach. They are lot better, because material is better and the machinery is better.
Chris (29:25.223)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (29:36.78)
What are the downside to extrusion? The downside to extrusion is that from arrow to arrow consistency is always there. But the fatigue of the arrow is also there. Because the spine is absolutely linear, and you're bending on the same part over and over and over again.
Chris (29:50.983)
So that that. So that the.
So essentially the arrow wears out or wears down faster.
Dorge Huang (30:01.294)
the material wear down faster. Another way you're dealing with metal fatigue in case of aluminum. That's the reason if you shoot the correct spine of arrows on your recurve, you only got some 80 shots, then you're done.
Chris (30:03.781)
Okay.
Chris (30:17.735)
And that's what the aluminum arrows are for? OK.
Dorge Huang (30:19.906)
Yes. Now how do you overcome it? This is time I think Easton did a really good job on the ACCs, which is the aluminum inside and coming outside. Now let's step back a little bit on the aluminum. A lot of people recognize when you extrude aluminum, it will not give you exactly what you need. Then you go to secondary process. Then you use the machine of rollers to change the thickness and the diameter of the shaft. Now for most of them,
I do you know what 2219 means when you get aluminum arrow? Okay, I will give you a crash course. The first two number is 64. So 2219 means that you got arrow shaft at 2264 in OD. That 19 is thickness of the material in thousands. So 2219 means that you got an aluminum arrow with 2264 on the outside and the thickness of the material is 19.
Chris (30:52.613)
don't.
Chris (31:18.311)
$19,000.
Dorge Huang (31:18.318)
So people say, 2216 is faster. Yes, it's 16,000 compared to 19,000. It is not better, it's faster. In technically, the wall is thinner. So it recover faster because the reaction time is faster, but you got less material, the fricc will kick in faster on the same identical punish ball because the material is thinner.
Chris (31:41.287)
Sure. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. And that's actually a question I've been waiting to, I kept forgetting to ask it about the extrusion process because I've heard you talk about it a bunch on other podcasts that we've mentioned it here before.
Dorge Huang (31:56.182)
It is a mold extrusion and then the material come out the other end. It's unlimited length. It's the thing as a pasta machine.
Chris (31:59.664)
Okay.
Yep. And I love, can't wait and we don't need to touch on it now, but I can't wait to get into the process of making your knocks later on down the road because this, the, you know, the, the in-depth process really comes out, but we're not, we're going to leave that as a little bit of a spoiler later on. so you.
Dorge Huang (32:11.156)
Dorge Huang (32:19.192)
Sure, and then of course the aluminum, see aluminum is a monolithic construction. In other words, the front to bottom is the same material. So how you treat the material, but remember when you deal with material, this part I think nobody did it better than Eastern. They know how to manipulate the aluminum. And remember all material, metal material, have directions.
That means if you go through extrude project, you went through a roll-up process, you can control every single element. Every single molecule of the aluminum facing the same direction will give you superb linear performance. That means from arrow to arrow, batch to batch, as long as the machine is the same, temperature is the same, your control is the same, the arrow will be the same. So they're extremely, extremely consistent.
Chris (32:58.759)
Okay.
Chris (33:11.399)
They just don't
Dorge Huang (33:13.304)
Correct. And the spine of the arrow is a linear. That's reason some people really love the aluminum arrow, because the spine is absolutely not like the carbon, not like the fiberglass, not like the other material. The spine is absolutely linear. It's so linear, it very much behave like a cedar arrow, because the material approach is the same. The cedar fiber is always straight. And then when you find the spine, it's not gonna move on you.
Chris (33:17.852)
Right.
Chris (33:28.102)
Okay.
Chris (33:38.693)
Now something really cool, because growing up, my uncle, my dad, my other uncle, they all shot aluminum arrows in the 90s. And one of the cool things was, my very first time ever shooting my compound bow, my brother took me to the range and I ended up putting one arrow in the back of the other. And on a carbon arrow, it's pretty cool. It just kind of goes in and it splits over just a little bit and it just kind of goes over the other one.
And my uncle used to say, yeah, yeah, okay. You know, that's impressive. He goes, but wait, if you, when you do it with an aluminum arrow, that's a lot more impressive. And I said, why? He goes, well, when you put it, when you hit the back of a carbon arrow, the carbon is so structurally sound that it can redirect the tip of the back arrow enough to get it perfectly in the middle. But in order to Robin Hood an aluminum arrow, it has to go perfectly in the middle because it mushrooms the same way that a bullet does essentially.
Dorge Huang (34:35.85)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (34:37.155)
And if you don't hit it perfectly in the middle, it'll just deflect or split the arrow rather than go down the middle. Yeah. You know, so, that was pretty cool. I've always, I always have that thought in my head, just a little story, you know, growing up.
Dorge Huang (34:41.676)
Yeah, there's some section of the area come up.
Dorge Huang (34:50.35)
Also depends on who made the aluminium and what process they make it and what material. Just so you know, most people's aluminium today is made of 775. Okay? And they are all anodized and sealed. That's also a reason why aluminium arrow don't stick well with veins. Because it's anodized and sealed. That's no grabbing surface.
Chris (34:58.64)
Okay.
Chris (35:09.767)
All right. Okay. So right before we went on the tangent with the extrusion process, you had said that there was a very important material that we haven't talked about yet. It was aluminum. Okay, great.
Dorge Huang (35:24.472)
Aluminium.
Because aluminum in so many ways is, first of all, can mass produce. And second, we can absolutely guarantee consistency through a few manufacturers. I mean, there's a few variation of aluminum comes out that are really good. The ripped aluminum is fantastic because it added the spine rating without adding weight. But unfortunately, they died.
Chris (35:34.629)
Okay, right.
Dorge Huang (35:50.388)
And from aluminum arrow, Eastern come up with really good stuff. It's called ACCs, which is carbon in the middle and aluminum outside. My understanding is that they make the carbon arrow, they put it in the machine and get the aluminum to roll on top of the carbon arrow.
Chris (36:05.799)
Pretty cool.
Dorge Huang (36:07.17)
Yep, because remember you got multi roller as you go through it. The roller is going to press the aluminum down into the carpet.
Chris (36:14.119)
Okay. Now, and, we're, it seems like we're about to get into compound arrows, not compound bow arrows, but.
Dorge Huang (36:21.43)
No, no, no, sorry. That what I just mentioned is the way the full metal jacket was made. The ACC is that the inside is aluminum, the outside is carbon. The reason Eastland can make it so good because they can absolutely guarantee the strictness and the consistency of aluminum aero. And then when they wrap the carbon on it, you got a super reliable base to put the carbon on. And in my personal opinion, the absolute best hunting aero
Chris (36:27.408)
Okay?
Chris (36:31.335)
Right, aluminum, carbon, carbon.
Chris (36:46.416)
Right.
Dorge Huang (36:50.57)
ever made besides my new generation Aero was the AC Super Slim.
Chris (36:55.783)
And what, at the time, what, it, they called it super slim, what was the, was it a one six six or two
Dorge Huang (37:02.186)
It was the same time when Access comes out. It is based on ACC, but it is a 204 ID with a carbon outside. And Eastern make it again in the ACC Pro Hunters. But this time, instead of using a 246, they go with a 235. So they use the ACC 249 as your base and add layers on it.
Chris (37:06.982)
Okay.
Chris (37:13.926)
Awesome.
Chris (37:18.705)
Okay.
Chris (37:27.975)
I you.
Dorge Huang (37:29.42)
Now those arrows are superbly reliable, superbly consistent, and not to mention because they are tech heavier, the slug force is fantastic. For today's compound bow, for most people, those are the good arrows people should be using.
Chris (37:44.229)
What, and those are the, okay. Okay. Right. And honestly, me either.
Dorge Huang (37:46.838)
ACC Pro Hunter, that kind of arrows. Not the full metal jacket. I personally do not like the full metal jacket at all because the full metal jacket with aluminum on the outside, anytime you bend the aluminum, the carbon cannot recover from.
Chris (38:03.803)
because the aluminum gets stuck that way.
Dorge Huang (38:06.062)
Yes, you've got a little bit of thick patterns. Now then, go ahead.
Chris (38:08.495)
Okay. I was gonna say, I just want to take a, just a quick second. We're going to break here for just one second. I'm going to run the, our sponsorship stuff real quick, and then we'll jump back into it. And I'm just going to, cut this part out, but I already have it prerecorded. So I would actually have to talk about it again. You know, so, yeah. Okay. So what I always heard about the full metal jackets, the Easton full metal jackets.
Dorge Huang (38:28.554)
Not a problem.
Chris (38:36.871)
I've never used them myself, but I've seen horror stories of them exploding. Not like, you know, exploding like you would think of a bomb, but you know, the impact hitting so hard that the broadhead goes into the arrow or the back of the arrow kind of splintering on the shot. Have you heard anything about that? Is that a product of the way it's built? Okay.
Dorge Huang (38:58.498)
That's true for every aero. Fiberglass, look at ACC, actually it happened a lot more on Beeman. The reason you don't see it because you got an outsole in the front and an outsole in the back.
Chris (39:09.914)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (39:11.148)
If they all do that.
Chris (39:13.017)
Okay. So.
Dorge Huang (39:14.498)
And would you remember we talked about how arrow the five different motions last time? Well, imagine that when you have excessive amount of force in one motion, since the kind of flags can't do anything, the circular expansion is what you see.
Chris (39:18.812)
Yes.
Chris (39:28.869)
Okay. See what... Right. Right, see? So when I was growing up, the big thing that I was always told was you have to be careful with aluminum arrows in the cold. Because when it was... I don't know if there's any truth to this, but what I was told is when you shoot an aluminum arrow in the cold and it flexes too far, that arrow is shot. Is there any truth to that?
Dorge Huang (39:30.274)
You put all the energy on the back, nothing holding it.
Dorge Huang (39:52.206)
Right, it's the same thing with any material. It's the same as carbon arrow. Because the reason that most people recognize is because of resin improvements. It's the same thing in the old, in the arena, when old furs come up with the fishing rod. When it gets really cold, the moment you flex the arrow, the fishing rod is really cracked. The resin can't handle it.
Chris (40:00.07)
Okay.
Chris (40:10.671)
Okay. Yeah. I had that happen a couple of years ago, not in the cold. was really, it was really weird. was using the same corollary. I personally love the same corollary rods.
Dorge Huang (40:18.136)
Sink Croy should not do that. mean, unless you are the really early, we taught people that sink Croy one and two comes out. You know, I'm a big fishing guy.
Chris (40:23.751)
It was four years ago, I was bass fishing, I went to go set the hook and the rod snapped in half.
Dorge Huang (40:28.769)
No, should not be.
Dorge Huang (40:34.638)
Nope, I will tell you, since it's four years ago, that will be a Sincor II or Sincor III. You have somebody or somebody have not put a nick on the shaft. That's the reason it's not cracked. All the Sincor rods have one of the best engineered approach. If that happens, means that that fishing rod had a nick on it.
Chris (40:56.903)
That's unfortunate. And I kid you not, was literally, it broke the week I got it. It was like my second fishing trip.
Dorge Huang (41:02.446)
Well, then I will tell you what happened. That fishing rod, when they come to you, it got crushed from another rod to a guy with a neck to the blank. That is what happened. you know, I build expensive fishing rods. I mean, you're talking to a guy who owned about $10,000 worth of guys just in the box. Okay. So I know all fishing rods are original testing.
Chris (41:19.185)
Sure.
Dorge Huang (41:31.89)
that rod you bought, would guarantee it. It is on the transportation, somebody crushed the box and the guide of another rod touched the bank to the point that it crushed in the fiber. But St. Croix will take care of it. You just send it back to get you a one.
Chris (41:40.304)
Okay.
Chris (41:43.653)
Yeah. Yeah. No, St. Croix has always been great. I have, I think three different.
Dorge Huang (41:48.29)
I mean, this is one of the better company. mean, in America right now, I would say that is five good fishing rod company, your St. Croix, your old Agilumus, your new Edge, which is the same as Northbrook, which Agilumus started on his own, your Lemy Glass, your Taled, and your Sage. I mean, some people like, let me add Winston or add...
Chris (42:00.007)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (42:16.75)
add a sky to it, but those are fly road only. I'm talking full line.
Chris (42:20.913)
Gotcha. Yeah, I tend to gravitate towards the St. Croix mojo bass line. I like the mojos.
Dorge Huang (42:28.046)
Are they okay? I mean, if you really like that, you should look at the Synchro 5. Yes, the material is better and just remember, don't overdo it. Because like if you want crankbase stick with fiberglass, it's better. Sorry.
Chris (42:31.707)
Sync profile.
Chris (42:39.867)
Yeah, I'm a big, we are going off the table. I'm a big lily pad, throw it into the muck type of guy, you know, so.
Dorge Huang (42:46.816)
then you got to love the Syncro too. Don't go anything because you want high in fiberglass. That's exactly why. I mean, the same thing. If you want an arrow that behave much what you call it, consistent behavior in low budget is really hard to be fiberglass. High fiberglass contents, carbon arrows. That's pretty much what Carbon Express gives you.
Chris (42:49.777)
Okay.
Chris (43:11.815)
Okay, so that concludes our fishing tangent for the day. know, sure.
Dorge Huang (43:16.578)
Well, actually we bring it back because if you look at a fishing, the major difference between a fishing rod and an arrow is the fishing rod is tapered and the arrow is linear. And fishing rod have always a linear spine because of its tapering. But in the case of an arrow, there's no anchoring point. It flex on two points because it's flexing in the air on two points.
Chris (43:24.679)
Tapered, yep. Right.
Chris (43:37.039)
right the front of the front and the back.
Dorge Huang (43:41.006)
Right, but not except for now, you back, it's somewhere, it'll be more forward. But then we can go to the next material. We know that we know the good side about aluminium, we know the great things about fibreglass. Then in the 1970s, some people say, let's go with carbon. And of course, the first carbon era is indeed BEMON. BEMON, about in 80s.
Chris (43:45.451)
Great. Okay, so.
Chris (44:04.839)
In the 70s? Carbon arrows were that old? I had no idea. I thought that was like 90s technology.
Dorge Huang (44:11.958)
My 1988 Oneida, I only shoot beam and hunters. But then that was extrusion arrow, carbon extrusion. So the spine is extremely linear, but it solved the problem by putting an ulcer in the front and an ulcer on the back. So the entire carbon on both ends is actually covered in aluminum, but it was not well engineered, not well designed.
Chris (44:19.503)
Okay, that's cool.
Chris (44:26.426)
Okay.
Chris (44:38.458)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (44:41.696)
OD is not consistent. It takes forever and a day to get it to shoot right. I learned the hard way. Because the CNC machines, they don't use CNC machine back then to make inserts. They use screw machines. So the consistency is not there. The way consistency is reasonable. The not consistent is sort of a joke. And I learned that most inserts are not straight. Most are not straight. How the hell do we shoot anything?
Chris (44:48.604)
Okay.
Chris (44:55.579)
Really.
Chris (45:11.227)
So was it at this time, you know, we're talking we're talking 80s, in the 80s. Did you have any interest in making your own arrows at this time when you already started noticing issues?
Dorge Huang (45:16.462)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (45:23.246)
I still do. I fudge arrow. get one Arizona E3 Fudge Blue to put in the arrows and put all the carbon veins. I still buy the nocks. I mean, I never did use aluminum because I noticed how you use a thing to round the front and put a Mako nock on a 2019. And then a lot of people choose the 2216 for that exact reason, with lighter weight.
Chris (45:32.763)
Okay.
Chris (45:42.929)
So, so.
Chris (45:46.683)
Okay, so since the beginning you've always been trying to figure out how to make your arrows shoot properly, more consistent.
Dorge Huang (45:52.352)
No, because the way I shoot back then, I was so good at it. I always knocked the vanes off and so on. So it get really expensive every time I do anything wrong, I need to go back to the shop. I mean, way back, I live in Forest Park, so I can just go after custom in Forest Park and Terry take care of me.
Chris (46:02.343)
Yeah.
Chris (46:08.741)
Yep. Can I be honest? That's why, that's why ever since, ever since I started shooting arrow concept, I only shoot five spot targets. I do not shoot at the same, the same aiming point twice. I don't do it unless I'm shooting 3D. That is the only time I, because I can't help it. We're all shooting for the same, the same point. You know what I mean? So, I could definitely understand the, things getting
Dorge Huang (46:36.502)
Then, know, in my personal opinion, I still think the ACC is one of the better approach. It's not a simple approach. And it's a very capital investment approach. And at that time, a company called Go Tip come up with a different approach. And the approach is pretty, it's actually, it's supposed to be a low volume approach, but it ended up to be a high, the highest volume approach is that you make mandrels, which is a piece of steel.
Chris (46:43.632)
Okay.
Chris (47:04.903)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (47:05.59)
and then you roll the carbon on top of it and they roll different layer of carbon at different angles so they cancel each other. And usually it's three, four, five layers.
Chris (47:13.648)
Yep.
Dorge Huang (47:19.502)
But people don't understand the first layer do not, the second layer do not cancel the first layer 100 % because the second layer is always bigger than the first layer. And the third layer is bigger than the second and the fourth layer is bigger than the third.
Chris (47:29.383)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (47:34.052)
It's like running around a track. The outside lane is always going to be a longer distance than the inside lane. That's just how it is.
Dorge Huang (47:38.498)
Correct. Now by doing so...
what is the spine of the shaft going to be the resulting spine? Answer is that you have no idea. But I'll guarantee it not be strict.
Chris (47:50.183)
Right and that's where we get that you know that spine. There we go. Okay.
Dorge Huang (47:53.346)
the helix spines or compound helix because it depends on how the layer of each of the directional layer of the carbon. This approach have a lot of merit. Don't get me wrong. First of all, the capital investment is really low. You only need mandrel and then you need a room to bake the arrows. And finally, you need the hydraulic press to pull the mandrel out.
And Go-Tip do the best. The reason that Go-Tip ID is so good because Marvin Carlson of Go-Tip, they have done the mandrel. They make the mandrel out of two steel. And instead of hydraulic, pull the thing out, they drop that into a cooler. So the steel shrinks. They just take the mandrel out. That's the reason when you look at the inside of a Go-Tip arrow, it's so freaking clean.
Chris (48:37.627)
and let it pull it right up.
Chris (48:45.191)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (48:46.67)
and Carbon Express, Black Eagle, and so on, all those are hydraulic pulled mandrels. And then, that's the reason they are not good if you use weaved carbon shaft. Why?
Chris (49:00.283)
So why is it not good when we use weave? Does it get caught? Is it harder to get that steel out?
Dorge Huang (49:03.277)
Mm-hmm.
it ends up with a Chinese finger puzzle effect. It's wealth. That's reason you need a cut. That's the reason for even true for normal carbon arrow as long as you're the hydraulic press, wherever the pulling side is always larger in OD and ID both. And in the case of, like say, element, that's the reason the pulling side can be as big as 207 on a 204.
Chris (49:09.929)
okay. Okay.
Chris (49:24.966)
Really.
Chris (49:36.188)
Wow.
Dorge Huang (49:36.418)
So that's reason why we use that side for the insert. Because your nut won't fit, the nut will fall out.
Chris (49:40.078)
Sure. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting you say that because there's been times in the past where, know, I'll get a dozen arrows and I'll go to put knocks in and six of the knocks go in easy and six of the knocks, I have to file down the knock a little bit to get it to fit into the arrow.
Dorge Huang (49:57.23)
Right, because see at that time, depends on how, when you pull on this side, the pulling side is gonna end up bigger, and the pulled on the other side is gonna end up smaller, because it's pulling into it. See, the moment you understand, the reason I spend so much time talking about the manufacturing process, because now you know what you're facing. Because until you know what you're facing, what is your problem? You look for those.
Chris (50:08.239)
Right. That's that's
Chris (50:18.982)
Right.
Chris (50:23.217)
You don't know it. Yeah. No, and that's, I was just going to say that like that's, I never realized how much went into arrows. You know, obviously I wouldn't be able to build one in my backyard, you know, but I didn't realize how many, I guess with, I guess with what we're trying to build on today is realizing that every time you create something new, it fixes one problem, but another problem arises with that.
Dorge Huang (50:27.478)
And then now, go ahead.
Chris (50:53.467)
You know, so.
Dorge Huang (50:53.644)
You got that. And you need to understand the fundamental approach of how each material behaves, what the benefits and downs of each material, what you have overcome, and what will be new that you have to overcome. Or what are you going to address? I mean, just like the original carbon-like beam end, are nothing more than a... But see, the beam end is long carbon fiber extrusion.
Chris (51:11.429)
Right?
Dorge Huang (51:20.654)
The new extruded carbon fiber is short carbon fiber extrusion, so they're much safer. So when they break, they behave like tempered glass. But at the same time with the gold team, when they break, they also behave tempered glass because they are layer over layer. So they do reasonably clean break.
Chris (51:25.776)
Okay.
Okay.
Chris (51:38.299)
Okay. Reason reasonably, the operative word reasonably.
Dorge Huang (51:38.753)
Bring yourself a body clean break.
Dorge Huang (51:43.746)
Yes, but as time goes on in today's world, with the resin they're being so much better, now we pretty much got clean brick. We got a straw in your hand now, which is not that bad. But then, just like every single arrow, what's on the label? Flags, check, before shoot. You're right.
Chris (51:51.983)
Okay? Okay? Okay!
Chris (51:58.437)
like before shooting. Yeah, I don't know anyone who flexes every single arrow before every single shot. So
Dorge Huang (52:05.934)
Well, just like people say, you should always put your safety belt before driving. Same thing. You should, but you didn't. But that's reason we got people, mean, unfortunately it happens and that's part of the deal. So the safest not to shoot. You never have that problem. Now, let's talk about carbon. I want to talk, bring into carbon fiber. Because this is the part that really confused a lot of people.
Chris (52:11.589)
Yeah, I guess that's true.
Chris (52:20.752)
Yeah.
Right? Yeah. So, yeah, so exactly.
Chris (52:34.909)
And I think the big thing we want to try to focus on is a lot of people think that carbon fiber arrow is a carbon fiber arrow, but that's not true. There are a lot of different...
Dorge Huang (52:42.158)
Oh no no no no no no. Carbon fiber for the last, I would say, it'd be 1979, that will be 75, 85, 95, 102, but last 45 years. Carbon fiber comes so far, it's not even funny.
Chris (53:00.933)
Right. And obviously the way that it's made, the way the arrow is designed and the, okay.
Dorge Huang (53:05.262)
And the grade. See most people in the old days, they don't understand how carbon fiber was rated. They rated because manufacturer claim. And of course, most people learn about carbon fiber from fishing rod companies. Your basic, your IM5, IM6, IM7, IM8. Well, that's pretty much your G-Lumers numbers. And then your best for shell number, your 32 ton, 48 ton, 64, 72, 84 ton. Do anybody know what that means?
Chris (53:34.663)
I don't know what it means. Yeah, sounds fancy.
Dorge Huang (53:36.718)
Yeah, it just sounds impressive. But yeah, it sounds fancy. just like, know, in Japanese manufacturing terms, most carbon fiber arrows are made of 24 and 28 tons. In the true carbon fiber manufacturing talk, it's the V300, V400, and V500. That's where the real numbers is. Those are where carbon fiber first come out.
Chris (54:03.184)
Okay.
And what do those numbers represent? What is it? What is that measurement representing?
Dorge Huang (54:10.246)
That is the tonnage of the carbon fiber in the tube under immunosupplication. The higher the number, in other words, it's modulus. In other words, the higher the modulus of a carbon fiber, the more you can resist, the less you can use.
Chris (54:30.119)
So just essentially the higher the number, the stronger the coverage. OK. Cool.
Dorge Huang (54:30.414)
starting now
The string braiding, string to weight ratio. I mean, just like, you know, in the case of like some of the older Carbon Express Aero, which I'm not, I don't know how, because they moved the factory in Korea to Vietnam, I do not know their stuff that well anymore. I mean, I know that, what's his name? G5, or G5 Aero is technically the new, the old Carbon Express Maxima stuff.
with the different cab in the back. That's what I look at and see. That approach, just like Cabin Express. Then the guy say, yeah. I remember one time when one gentleman from PSC come to me with Arrow. I take a look at the inside, I look at the shell. It's just a revenge go to arrow. How do you know it's new? Construction.
Chris (55:08.711)
I look familiar.
Chris (55:24.037)
Yeah. Okay.
Dorge Huang (55:26.706)
I I happen to have that eye. because I understand carbon fiber manufacturing process, and every company have a certain amount of process that they can't get away with, because that's what they're good at.
Chris (55:38.407)
Sure. Yeah. And when you know what you're looking for, it's a lot easier to identify it also.
Dorge Huang (55:43.63)
and look at the finish and so on, the broach, then you know. Now, a lot of people talk about modulus. Modulus is the strength to weight ratio of the carbon fiber. It pretty much stayed all the way until about 2015. Then carbon force come up with the weave on the outside. Then we got element later with the.
Chris (55:47.652)
Exactly.
Chris (56:05.895)
I'll see.
Thank
Dorge Huang (56:11.372)
with the two to one ratio wave on the outside.
Chris (56:14.472)
So a lot more recent. We're talking in the last 10 years or so.
Dorge Huang (56:16.418)
No, yeah. And then Carbon Express got a pattern on putting 1K weave as decoration on the outside. No, is, absolutely, they got a pattern using 1K weave as decoration.
Chris (56:24.757)
Hahaha
Chris (56:30.673)
So and by decoration, you're literally saying it does nothing but make it look good.
Dorge Huang (56:35.374)
Yeah, when you put 25151 touching action action, what are you doing to it? What can you do to it? Exactly. So what else is it? Decoration.
Chris (56:40.423)
Not much. Okay. Okay. I mean they do look, the weave does look nice. I'll give them that. You know?
Dorge Huang (56:47.882)
Of course that. I mean, we understand it's a very engineered look. That's what it is. The engineered look is what makes people really want to buy. Now, this is where the understanding of each material and the laying of the material come in. Of course, the carbon fiber from all this type is basically your sheets. All carbon fiber is pointing one side to the other side and you roll it.
Chris (56:53.35)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (57:15.66)
If you roll it totally linearly, you end up the same approach as the beamen, because all carbon fiber point towards one side. When you break them, they spur. Right, now when you use carbon fiber, it's the same material. Put one to five degree to the left, five degree to the right. When they break, the first layer overcome the second layer and so on, you got a reasonably clean break. But then your spine is helix, or compound helix.
Chris (57:25.625)
is perfect, okay?
Chris (57:40.903)
Okay.
Chris (57:44.752)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (57:46.412)
then in order to save it, you're using something like a weave. But unfortunately, like, fortunate or unfortunate, depends how you look at it, people now using a weave on the outermost layer. Now the direction of the weave and how the weave is being be, become more more important. If it is a 45 degree weave, then the breakage become minimal, isn't it?
Chris (58:06.481)
short.
Dorge Huang (58:13.422)
If it's a 90 degree, you've got loop strength that go up the weave, go off the chart. Because you've got one sort of fiber that's 100 % wrapping it. The other side of the fiber is like this. So you've got to stretch, you've got to stress, stretch, and you've got to stress. You've got both controlled. So 45 degree will be the best. But 45 degree is not an easy process. It's a very expensive problem. Because you need the fiber that's much longer because now you're rotating it 45 degrees.
Chris (58:28.729)
Okay. They're both controlling each other. Okay.
Chris (58:36.667)
Right.
Chris (58:41.191)
Okay. Now, along with the progression of carbon, carbon fiber, and like we said, the big jump in carbon fiber happened about nine years ago, about to be 10 years ago, two days, 2015 you said. Along with that, hasn't...
Dorge Huang (58:46.584)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (58:59.694)
No, no, it's not a big jump. It's the choice of material. Because all of a sudden, at that moment, people start putting weave on the outside of the shaft. But weave is not weave. That's another thing. Because when you look at weave, this is called one-to-one ratio.
Chris (59:02.704)
Okay.
Chris (59:11.376)
Okay, what do you mean?
Chris (59:16.975)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (59:18.286)
Most of the weaves of that time because of the way carbon will behave is two to one ratio.
Chris (59:24.091)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (59:26.382)
Stay different.
Chris (59:27.429)
Yeah.
Dorge Huang (59:29.24)
That means you have two fiber from assuming that we look at a fiber from north to south, east to west. The ideal weave is one to north to south, east to west, one to one ratio. But we find out majority of carbon fiber is two to one ratio.
Chris (59:41.169)
Sure.
Chris (59:45.159)
Why is that?
Dorge Huang (59:47.061)
It's easier to make.
Chris (59:48.591)
Okay, is it also cheaper to make?
Dorge Huang (59:51.355)
No, because it gives less stress to the carbon fiber. Because when you do this, look at that.
Chris (59:58.107)
Yeah.
Dorge Huang (59:59.82)
This two fiber is less stressed. This is the only stress carbon fiber. See that? As you decrease the carbon fiber material, you increase the performance.
Chris (01:00:02.851)
Right. Okay.
Chris (01:00:12.101)
Okay, so the less carbon fiber there is in an arrow, the better it performs. Thinner, okay. Is that per layer or the final product?
Dorge Huang (01:00:14.498)
No, no, the thinner the carbon fiber. The thinner.
No, we're talking sheets right now. Just cloth. Right. Just like, know, when you look at tissue paper, it's made of material. What direction is the material? You don't know. With a carbon fiber, you know exactly which way the direction of the material is.
Chris (01:00:23.269)
Okay, just the sheet. Okay.
Chris (01:00:29.254)
Right.
Chris (01:00:32.826)
Okay.
you know exactly. Okay. Now along with the progression of carbon fiber, hasn't the, hasn't the resin used to create the carbon fiber also progressed over time?
Dorge Huang (01:00:46.568)
big time, big big time. That was the reason that why a lot of the older carbon fiber gets such better because the resin, the structure of resin, the purity of action and the control, the knowledge of how to use the resin improved.
Chris (01:01:00.611)
Okay. And what was I doing with that? I'd, I'd, yeah.
Dorge Huang (01:01:05.966)
That's reason, even the cheapest carbon fiber arrow you buy is come fantastic compared to the old ones. I mean, just like to, I'll give you an idea. The carbon fiber arrow you buy in Walmart for 350 is much better than the original gold tube arrow that you pay something like eight bucks a piece.
Chris (01:01:11.249)
Yeah.
Chris (01:01:24.262)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (01:01:25.132)
Because the manufacturing process is much more matured. So even the junkiest machine to make this stuff is really good.
Chris (01:01:33.061)
Well, that's good. least we know we've come that far. What purpose does the resin serve? That's what I was going to ask you. When you're making an arrow, what does the resin do or what is its purpose?
Dorge Huang (01:01:41.358)
The problem...
it stabilized the carbon and forced the carbon to react a certain way. In other words,
Dorge Huang (01:01:54.222)
The resin is the The carbon fiber is the rebars.
Chris (01:01:56.72)
Okay, the whole.
Chris (01:02:01.809)
Gotcha. Okay. All right. That's good to know that. And how has...
Dorge Huang (01:02:07.064)
But except the ratio is opposite. In the case of concrete, rebuy is only the inner. Majority is the concrete. And in the case of carbon fiber, the carbon fiber is majority work. The resin is still a mixture of the carbon fiber don't move.
Chris (01:02:15.065)
Okay.
Chris (01:02:23.247)
Okay. All right. So it's just enough to kind of hold it in place and help it to do its job.
Dorge Huang (01:02:27.522)
Correct. the good thing about the new resin is that it is so finite amount of material. The less material you have, the better off you are. But you need the material to bond them together.
Chris (01:02:39.023)
Right. So in today's industry, especially when it comes to hunting products, everyone is looking to where they could save a buck or two. Right. You know, when it comes to bows, one of the big things I love about Darten, for example, is they have so many patents out for, for bow technology that they're able to sell their flagship bows for a lot less because they don't have to pay another company for their
technology or for, you know.
Dorge Huang (01:03:08.782)
Yes and no, but you need to understand that if you look at today's bold technology or patterns, they're all gone. That's where every little pattern left. Most patterns like the twin-cam, the binary-cam, so on, they all expired in 2022. 2023, it's gone. I mean, the twin-cam pattern expired in 2018, the single-cam expired in 2017, and the binary-cam was gone in 2013. The 23.
Chris (01:03:18.449)
Yeah.
Chris (01:03:23.175)
Mm-hmm.
Gotcha. So everyone's able to.
Chris (01:03:33.767)
Okay?
Chris (01:03:38.768)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (01:03:39.01)
So, I mean, all the rest of the pattern is only a specific condition. Like the Matthew AVS pattern, the roller turn, it's really not that big a deal.
Chris (01:03:48.391)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so the...
Dorge Huang (01:03:52.544)
But you know, people keep on trying to sell the patent because it makes them feel better, but people need to understand. Just because the patent expired, do not mean that something is bad. It just means that if you come up with an execution, first of all, you don't have to pay anybody for the patent fee. Second, it's proven.
Chris (01:04:14.203)
Sure. Although just to touch on the proven thing real quick, I, I still, you and I have talked about this before. We'll talk about this in a future podcast because you and I want to get, once we're done talking about the arrows and everything, we've also wanted to start getting into bows and the progression of bows. What I don't understand is why we've gotten away from a Yoke system. I personally do not like the binary cam system.
I just, thought, I thought Yoke systems were way easier to work on. I thought they were a lot more consistent. Faster as in speed of speed of the arrow. Okay. Okay. That's good to know.
Dorge Huang (01:04:43.554)
because it's faster.
Dorge Huang (01:04:49.39)
That's the only reason. But then remember, right now, if you look at all the latest patterns, like what Matthew did, what Darden did, what Boatek did.
If you're good bow mechanic, you got a good bow press, you can get the same result in every one of them you can do. But then you ask yourself a question, just like every single mechanic will tell you, anytime you put a fastener or adjustment, what does that mean?
Chris (01:05:04.455)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:05:08.38)
Sure.
Chris (01:05:17.863)
everything changes.
Dorge Huang (01:05:19.266)
That means anything can be undone.
Chris (01:05:22.319)
Yes. Yep. And you can't guarantee that pieces, that parts aren't moving as you're shooting. I'm going to save that point for the future podcast. I don't want to get down another rabbit hole here. Yep.
Dorge Huang (01:05:35.006)
Yes, absolutely. But let's go back to the arrow shaft.
First of all, don't really need need the technical specific of what V3300, 400, 500, 600, 700 means, or we do not need 24 tons, 32 tons, or 28 tons, or 48 tons means, or IM678. The fact is that any of those simply is a naming of a material. The material is only good if the final product do exactly what you want it to, and there's no downside.
Chris (01:05:53.735)
Dorge Huang (01:06:10.935)
Or the downside is minimal.
Dorge Huang (01:06:15.139)
This site.
Is the Beeman arrow very good? The answer is yes. It did everything you want with the price you want to pay. And it did exactly what you wanted to do. You to have a true linear spine.
that is Eastern aluminum arrow is only one that will match that.
The ACCs don't. But the ACCs will last longer.
Chris (01:06:40.135)
So they perform a little less but they last longer.
Dorge Huang (01:06:41.23)
And then the gold tip carbon arrow will last even longer. But remember, when the Fogarty come out, it's in the early 1990s. The resin process improved, the material improved. But you also allow, for example, like gold tip, like vapor, vapor is also a software gold tip already, your carbon express. of course, right now, nearly every single arrow that you can dream is out of Xiaomi, or out of
Chris (01:06:53.819)
has improved stigma. Yeah.
Dorge Huang (01:07:10.798)
out of Vietnam. They're all the identical projects like the GoTip stuff.
Chris (01:07:15.335)
So at this point, we're about an hour, five minutes, hour, 10 minutes into this podcast. and I think if we wanted to, we could probably spend another two hours talking about carbon arrows.
Dorge Huang (01:07:26.2)
No, I want to talk on the next podcast, we will dig into the carbon part. Because I think today I just want to rush all the way to that point so that we are able to build because we talk about all the good and bad things about each material. Now we go all the way into where I carbon fiber is the way to go and how carbon fiber will really make and break the next generation.
Chris (01:07:30.425)
Okay, so I have a
Chris (01:07:35.515)
Sure.
Chris (01:07:43.729)
Okay.
Dorge Huang (01:07:55.062)
and the concept of how carbon fiber was built to the point that people don't understand what L.O.
Chris (01:08:00.817)
Gotcha. So I just, if it's okay with you, I'd like to end this with just a couple of questions. The first being, can an aluminum arrow, if I was shooting my bow today, I shoot 70 pound, 27 and a half inch draw length, could today's bows or could an aluminum arrow, a true aluminum arrow handle today's in a hunting application?
Dorge Huang (01:08:05.838)
store.
Dorge Huang (01:08:24.012)
Absolutely. Actually, you'll be bad at it most cases.
Chris (01:08:28.199)
from a, and which is, guess my next question was the difference between the aluminum and the carbon arrows is essentially aluminum is more predictable and more consistent from shot to shot, but carbon arrows last longer. And is that, is that correct?
Dorge Huang (01:08:43.404)
Yes, and carbon arrow can be mixed in.
Chris (01:08:46.619)
can be made thinner. It looks great, but as far as a application standpoint, does that really matter? Okay. And which I honestly, I knew the answer to that question already, but we'll get into the diameters later on. That's one of the...
Dorge Huang (01:08:48.206)
They can mix it in there, looks sexy.
Dorge Huang (01:09:03.778)
Yeah, just simply aluminum is big in diameter, aluminum recover, I mean, then we're talking material capability and material approach. The material is not as ideal.
Chris (01:09:12.401)
Okay.
Chris (01:09:16.005)
Okay, now.
Dorge Huang (01:09:17.238)
as time goes on in today's world. That's a fact.
Chris (01:09:20.103)
Gotcha. Now I meant to, I meant to touch on this earlier when I brought up the dart and bows, but what I was getting at with that was in today's day, everyone's looking to figure out where they could save some money, right? Is it safe to say that like with bows, you can kill a deer with a $300 ready to hunt bow off the shelf. But so you can save money there. My question is when it comes to arrows and carbon arrows specifically.
Are you getting what you pay for? if you spend more money on an arrow, is it essentially a...
Dorge Huang (01:09:53.55)
This is part that people don't understand.
One thing is just like fishing. It is not the equipment, it's the knowledge of hunt.
It is only in the point of your true absolute trophy hunter, he either spend the money on his clothing, his comfort of going there and back, his equipment or all the above.
When you really know how to hunt, you find out that your comfort is actually the most important.
Chris (01:10:32.519)
100%.
Dorge Huang (01:10:34.232)
Because if you're not comfortable, you're not hunting, you're going to screw up the place. You're going to sweat and you're going to screw up the place by the sense you're going to just like fishing. You can fish with the cheapest Walmart fishing rod, but the end of the day, if you encounter something that demand more, you're not going to get it. But then that is where the difference is. It's like, I think just like the days when I'm doing stereo, can you get by with the same and I.
Chris (01:10:38.055)
Well, you're going to screw it up. You're not going to be in the tree as long. Yeah.
Chris (01:10:52.347)
But that's fair.
Dorge Huang (01:11:02.368)
an iPad with a good amplifier and good bells, like JBL speakers, small ones. You can pretty much get pretty decent effect. But then I remember the time that I remember I was a dealer for Timpanys and also for Apoge's. You can spend 120 grand and $60,000 in remodeling your house just to put this big thing in. What difference do you get? The extra large, last one or 2%. Just like every industry.
Chris (01:11:10.439)
Sure.
Chris (01:11:23.578)
Yeah.
Dorge Huang (01:11:31.342)
You will be in today's world, you can get to 90 % very easily, affordably. And for most people, I tell them, don't go any further. Improve your skill, knowledge. That extra 10 % are only for people who have money. Who think they can use money to buy this lack of skill and lack of experience? Answer is no.
Chris (01:11:56.135)
Right. So you have people that have the 90 % and they're looking to gain the extra 10 or they have that 10 % and they think they can acquire the 90 a different way. Okay. So my last question here is two different people. Let's say you have someone who is super in tune with everything they're doing. They tune their bow, they tune their arrows, they go out to the range, they weigh all their components. They really...
Dorge Huang (01:12:05.71)
Correct.
Dorge Huang (01:12:11.885)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:12:18.67)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:12:25.585)
focus on everything from beginning to end. What is the best material for an arrow for someone who is that persistent or that into what they're doing?
Dorge Huang (01:12:38.222)
That would be a tough call. Because if the person is that good and they practice that much, carbon would be a better choice. For people who know what they're doing and able to do it consistently in a short form, aluminum would be better. Because aluminum will perform absolutely 100 % predictable.
Chris (01:12:40.06)
Okay.
Chris (01:12:51.535)
Okay. And what it does.
Chris (01:12:56.273)
Okay. And then my, my, the flip side of that is someone who doesn't have the time or the know how to do that stuff. You know, they, okay.
Dorge Huang (01:13:03.98)
then you need to somebody build your arrow. Then you, I just like, I think I use the gun case. If you don't know better, if you want to shoot long range, you buy a box of BlackHill. You know you're good.
Chris (01:13:18.215)
Mm-hmm.
Dorge Huang (01:13:19.694)
Because somebody bulls-eye your gun, you're good. If you don't want to, you want to re-load it yourself and do it, I mean, you're going to spend a lot of time, and I'll guarantee you it won't match. That's the unfortunate part. That's reason, in most cases, for guys who really work for a living like when I used to be, you're better off finding a good arrow builder and let them build an arrow. I'm not saying that you can't do it. It's just not worth doing it.
Chris (01:13:27.737)
a lot of time.
Chris (01:13:41.029)
Yep.
Chris (01:13:44.945)
Yep, which I will say from experience, unfortunately, I think as of today, Exodus has closed our doors permanently, right? If I'm not mistaken, today is December 30th.
Dorge Huang (01:13:54.914)
Yes, I believe so, but that don't mean that this, I mean, all my deal, all my finite dealers do the same thing. The only thing, the only difference with Exodus is that they have relabeled their arrow a name. I mean, the same thing with Vital Limit. They call, he's called the arrow tank, whatever. I mean, the same thing with X-Wing Custom. They call it the Titan series and so on. I mean, every single finite certified and trained dealer will build you the same arrow because what Exodus got is the finite spot wave.
Chris (01:13:59.769)
Yeah.
Chris (01:14:14.789)
Sure.
Chris (01:14:24.859)
Yep. yep. And essentially what I was getting at was a couple of years ago, I think it was two years ago now, I had Jeremy Martin. I think he's out of New Jersey, if I'm not mistaken, right?
Dorge Huang (01:14:25.377)
with other components.
Dorge Huang (01:14:34.7)
No, no. Germany out of us. He used to be out of Ohio. Now he's out of West Virginia.
Chris (01:14:39.813)
Out of Ohio. Okay. So he, he built me a set of two 46s a few years ago. I absolutely loved them. and you, of course, you know, you, you build the arrows great as well. so with that being said, I think that's, essentially where we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna cut it off here, unless you have anything else that you'd like to add for, for this topic.
Dorge Huang (01:14:58.774)
No, I think it'll be good. Next episode, I really want to dig into carbon fibers because I think right now most people don't understand it, the construction and the implication of it. That will be a good episode because I know this is technical and sometimes we go off in the tangent into other stuff. remember, the industry, in order of other industry, I won't have what we have today.
Chris (01:15:22.415)
Okay. Yeah. And I mean, we have, I feel like every time we sit down and talk, something else comes up that we want to touch on at some point or another that you've probably thought of before that I haven't thought of before, you know, so, you know, as I, as I keep, as I keep going down this rabbit hole of arrows, I keep finding different tunnels and paths to take. it's a, it's a lot, it's a lot of fun.
Dorge Huang (01:15:34.926)
Hahaha!
Dorge Huang (01:15:43.24)
But that's the reason we're podcast, so we can learn more from each other.
Chris (01:15:46.999)
Exactly. And like I said, in the first episode, and like I will continue to repeat over and over again, the most important part for me with this series is to share the edu- is to share the knowledge and to give every- give everybody the information.
Dorge Huang (01:15:58.444)
Yes, mean, final word, the knowledge I got is based on what I know. Am I 100 % right? Hell no. I have been proven wrong so many times, but I'm telling you what I know is to be true. Okay? All right.
Chris (01:16:05.735)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:16:12.881)
Sure. Yeah, and that's how it should be. With that being said, I want to thank the listeners for joining us for another episode here, specifically with the Aero series. Hopefully you guys are getting some really great value out of this stuff. I enjoyed meeting with Dorch and learning this stuff as I go, and I'm hoping that you're finding some value in that as well. If you found some value today, head on down to the bottom. If you're on Apple Podcasts, click on that five star review, leave us a nice written review, let us know what you think.
George loves it when you ask questions. He loves being efficient. If you can answer the same question that people have at one time, that that'd be great. And if you're on Spotify, just the five star review goes a way. With that being said, we'll be happy to meet with you next time. And until next week, remember success is just a commitment away. a great week.
Dorge Huang (01:17:02.839)
Good.
