Show Notes
On this episode of Huntavore. Nick chats with Anna Borgman of Chaos Farms. Anna and her boyfriend Jesse took a huge leap in starting their own custom exempt shop. Butchering animals for the community and processing wild game for hunters. Nick and Anna talk shop for a while, as we hear the story of how Chaos came to be. Nick asks some butchering specific questions as he prepares his garage for deer. Anna lays out what would be ideal for hunters to do, before bringing their animals to processing. A lot of info here to digest on this episode of Huntavore.
Anna Borgman, owner of Chaos Farm and Butchering in Montana, discusses her journey as a small business owner in the domestic and wild game slaughter industry. She emphasizes the importance of taking care of the meat from the moment of harvest, including leaving the hide on to protect the meat and being mindful of cleanliness. Anna also talks about the challenges and rewards of offering sausage making services and the need for proper equipment like grinders and stuffers. She shares her passion for providing high-quality cuts of meat to her customers and the importance of pre-planning and careful butchering techniques. In this conversation, Anna Borgman and Nick Otto discuss the process of setting up a shop for meat processing. They talk about designing the shop layout, using hoists and cutting tables, and the importance of having a dedicated space for processing. They also discuss the use of chemicals for cleaning and sanitizing, the importance of sharp knives, and the satisfaction of providing high-quality meat to customers. Anna shares her favorite meal, which is slow-braised beef cheeks.
Takeaways:
- Take care of the meat from the moment of harvest by leaving the hide on to protect it and being mindful of cleanliness.
- Invest in proper equipment like grinders and stuffers to make the butchering process more efficient and enjoyable.
- Offering sausage making services can be a profitable addition to a processing business.
- Pre-planning and careful butchering techniques are essential for providing high-quality cuts of meat.
- Understanding the different regulations and inspections for domestic and wild game slaughter is crucial for operating a successful processing business. Designing a shop layout for meat processing involves considering the equipment needed, such as hoists and cutting tables.
- Using the right cleaning chemicals, such as Dawn soap and bleach, is important for maintaining a clean and sanitary processing environment.
- Having sharp knives is crucial for efficient and safe meat processing.
- Beef cheeks are a delicious and underrated cut of meat that can be slow-braised for a tender and flavorful meal.
Listeners can find more information about Anna Borgman and her farm on her Instagram accounts: @annaborgman and @chaosfarmsmt.
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Show Transcript
Nick Otto (00:00.251)
to go through the countdown than to not press the record button. I've only done that once and I don't want to do it again. Yeah, the callback, that was the hard part to be like, hey, it was great talking to you. Can we do it again? Can we do this all over again?
Anna Borgman (00:05.006)
What a nightmare.
Anna Borgman (00:17.614)
I had a panic yesterday because this is the first, well, yesterday was the first time I'd used this app to do a podcast. And he was like, okay, we just got to wait to let it upload afterward. And we got to about 99 % and then it froze. I was like, God, I don't want to, I don't want to do that again. But it was such a great conversation too. I like, man, I really want people to hear that. I.
Nick Otto (00:26.982)
yeah.
Nick Otto (00:36.137)
Ugh.
Nick Otto (00:43.421)
Yep. In fact, mine, I'm switching over to my hotspot so you might see me blink for just a second. I'm not going anywhere. But yeah, I don't want to freeze up either.
Anna Borgman (01:08.736)
I can see it. think, yeah.
Nick Otto (01:08.831)
Perfect. There it goes. Now it's coming back. Yeah, switching over the hotspot, but because again, my Wi -Fi, yeah, I that's the one thing I don't like about this app is that yeah, it it's all web based. So if you don't have the Wi -Fi, it doesn't work. I have found to that you can exit out. I won't exit out so that I'll just keep the meeting open and it will continue to download. So we're done. I have found at least you can go about your business. You don't have to leave it.
Anna Borgman (01:32.819)
really?
Nick Otto (01:38.384)
I leave mine and then it does the rest.
Nick Otto (01:44.063)
So, all right. Well, hey, I'm gonna focus in talking about the business, kinda talking in about the domestic side, kinda your life revolving around processing. I grew up on a poultry farm, so from a young age, dove right into the family business. I got to be part of that processing aspect of it. So, just talking a little bit about that, and then, yeah, really taking that step into being a small business owner.
in a very niche market where it all depends upon raising animals and people hunting to keep you guys going. So that's kind of where we're gonna revolve around. I dabble in myself. I'm looking at, it's one of those things, like down the road, can I charge people if I do like 15, 20 deer a year for buddies or whatever? And so to have like, this is like what would be a quality set up to use and to be able to just
Anna Borgman (02:38.147)
Yeah.
Nick Otto (02:41.479)
you know, what are some of the stuff you're using, some of your processes as far as prep and then cleaning up and stuff like that. Because I'm, you know, again, whatever I can steal from the farm, that's what I've been doing. But then to be able to be a little more self -sufficient and to be like, OK, I can source my own sanitizer. I can source what lugs are cheap and easy to find. that'll be kind of where we where we finish up.
Anna Borgman (03:09.528)
Yep.
Nick Otto (03:10.739)
Cool, cool. I'll do a quick intro here and then yeah, we'll get rocking and rolling.
Anna Borgman (03:18.062)
Okay, sounds good.
Nick Otto (03:20.575)
Well, hey folks, beautiful afternoon here in Michigan. I tell you what, it's the turn is coming. Fall has made itself apparent. We had nighttime temps down in the forties. We're talking 48 degrees last night or two nights ago. And to like actually put on a sweatshirt. If people are watching right now, yeah, I finally have a sweatshirt on.
We've gotten out of the muggy, miserable side of summer. I love summer, but at the same time, I am so looking forward to fall. And fall brings a lot of exciting things. A, it brings upon hunting season. But even on top of that, if you're involved as a landowner and you've got animals, fall is a very busy time when it comes to getting things slaughtered and getting things into the freezer.
And in fact, that segue leads us into introducing our guest today. got Anna Borgman. She is with us out of Montana. Am I correct, Anna?
Anna Borgman (04:26.158)
That's right. Yep.
Nick Otto (04:27.571)
Yes, out of Montana. She's a writer. She helps out the meat eater crew with some of their stuff. And she's also a current owner as of this past year, a small business owner doing domestic slaughter and wild game slaughter. Anna, you're also coming to us from your unfinished house. Are there any other projects you want to stack in?
while things are going between building your house, running a business. I love your tagline, stop, think, there must be a harder way. Is that really what you live by right now,
Anna Borgman (04:56.436)
Ugh.
Anna Borgman (05:10.232)
You know, I always thought that was kind of a funny tagline. I didn't actually mean for it to like encompass my life and literally everything I do, but it has, I was actually, I was talking about that yesterday that I, maybe I shouldn't have put that on there because it's sort of, it's taken over. Everything is definitely the hard way. I mean, we haven't had indoor plumbing in a year and yeah, like literally the two of us, my boyfriend and I building this house together and, and starting a business we've got now.
Egg business sort of kind of accidentally we ended up with. We've got almost 50 chickens now. So we're selling eggs. We've got goats that we're running as kind of weed eaters. Yeah. And now we're building out a cooler trailer to do processing this fall too. So it's a lot.
Nick Otto (05:46.858)
my goodness.
Nick Otto (05:58.195)
That is, that is. Well then the name Chaos really fits with what you guys are doing, Chaos Farm and Butchering. With that, starting out your business, you're seeing a niche where you're at in your community. Tell me a little bit about Chaos. What is your business plan? You're focused on kind of doing a broad spectrum where it's not a lot of big.
big scale at this point, but you're really focused in on homesteaders and people with small farms that are slaughtering a smaller number of animals and then even dabbling into the wild game side. Tell me a little bit about chaos.
Anna Borgman (06:43.202)
Yeah. So it kind of started as a joke really, a few years ago, Jesse and I were, think it was on our first date and it came up and we were like, well, you know, who knows if this will last, but that's kind of a great idea. Now everything's obviously lasted long enough to make it a thing, but we, we met working on the slaughter floor at a shop around here. so we were both kind of deep into the slaughter thing and, and butchering, and it's.
He makes knives, but along with that, that's kind of what we do. so, we both left the shop that we were at, about a little over a year ago. And, when we were there, we started doing some sort of small game processing, just out of our garage and basement and a rental that I was in in Bozeman. And, it kind of took off. mean, people were, we were having to turn people away because we just didn't have the capacity at that point.
But it was great and you know, we were working, we'd do slaughter all day and then we'd come home and cut game until midnight and go do slaughter and you know, day after day. it was like, okay, well, at least we like doing this, but maybe we could make our own, make our own go of it. So yeah, we did game processing last year. And again, just not, we didn't really have the capacity for the number of people that needed to use our service. And so we thought this might.
actually be a lucrative business, at least in the fall, you know, and there have been game processors around around Bozeman. We're about an hour outside of Bozeman now, but some processors that are shutting down and so people are really sort of frantic for good processors. So yeah, I think it should be successful. And then as far as the small scale slaughter side, yeah, we'll do like we've had friends that raise, you know, 10 sheep or something and they're giving them to their family or
You know, they've got them pre sold, which is the only way we can do it right now. We're not inspected for custom. We will be custom exempt. and so that's the only way that we can do that right now. But so it has to be small scale, which is, you know, fine by us, but eventually we'd love to have a shop where we can do a lot more animals.
Nick Otto (08:58.409)
Yeah. Yeah, that is, that's very interesting. That opens up a whole web of worms going from a slaughter facility where you were getting the paycheck to where now, Hey, we're going to branch out on our own and we got to, we got to make this work. We got to make, we got to pay the bills and we might have to pay people on the other side of this. then it comes into that licensing bit. That's a
big thing that I think a people don't understand is if you're going to be involved with food, there are so many checks that need to go through. so many inspections to be USDA. There's a lot that goes with that. My family farm is currently not USDA inspected. We are state inspected, which allows us to service all of Michigan, but we can't go outside of Michigan.
But then you look at processors for wild game. That is a thing that it's so niche. It's just a season. It's really hard to get in as far as what legalities you got to go through. But you're finding that as a custom exempt processor, you can get what you need done. Explain a little bit about custom exempt to listeners that may not be, may not know what they're talking about.
Anna Borgman (10:22.712)
Sure. Yeah. I love nerding out about this stuff. think it's really interesting because, I know it's different state by state. There'll be some little nuances here and there, but as far as Montana goes, there is USDA inspected, which means you're federally inspected. And so you have an inspector there all day, every day during slaughter, during cutting. And that means you can, whoever uses you, the customers can then sell.
that meet retail cuts, right? Like a single steak. They could sell it across state lines. They could ship it anywhere. really, it gives you the most freedom if you're a producer. State processing is just, you you're supposed to have the same expectations basically, but so nothing should be different in the facility. The standards are the same, but you'll have a state inspector there.
and it just, you can only sell meat in a certain way. You're not going to sell it across state lines. You're keeping it sort of in the state basically. and then custom exempt means that there is no inspector there. And so those animals have to be sold before they're killed. So those, when you hear something is sold as a whole, a half a quarter, that's usually custom exempt. You can't sell individual retail stakes or cuts.
And so you'll see on those packages, it says not for sale because technically it's already been sold and that person in possession of it from the, from the processor can give it away. That's fine. but can't sell it. So the same goes for wild game. I mean, as you know, you can't sell wild game. So that not for sale stamp will always be on there. And because we aren't doing slaughter, you know, it takes away that side of things, that need for inspection that might be there.
But yeah, I mean, it's really to do wild game, don't need inspection. The state and the feds are not involved because no one's selling the animals or the meat. There are a lot fewer regulations, which is nice because then people can do it for themselves. They can do it for their neighbors. We can do it not out of a huge facility, which really gives us a foot in the door, which is cool.
Nick Otto (12:43.017)
That is awesome. That's great for, think with the people figuring out what to do with that, because a lot of guys are going to their butchers who, you know, they're doing domestic day in and day out and they're doing a retail side. At least in Michigan, a lot of those big outfits do that. And so to find places, the little honey hole spots that are going to be able to take your deer in and not have it hang for a super long period of time outside, like they'll be able to bring it in and get that done.
I don't know, some of those places they do have like big warm chillers where they're putting them in with hides on. They can at least cool them down. But that at the same time, like some of those smaller outfits, like I'm thinking chaos is like, I'd rather go there just because I think you guys are going to be on that animal before some of them, you know, if I went with a larger outfit, know, it might be a while to get on that, but that's great to know.
Anna Borgman (13:34.092)
Yeah, our turnaround is real fast. we just don't have the capacity to hold onto stuff, which is a good thing for people bringing stuff in, because we have to get it out the door pretty quick. So yeah, usually people have their stuff back. If I'm doing sausage for people, I'll kind of hang on to that and usually give it to them later in the season when I have time to get to that, especially if we're just crushing through a bunch of animals. But you'll usually get your cuts back in a week.
Nick Otto (14:01.353)
Gotcha. And this is also really good. So when you started out, was it pretty much like, listen, I'm going to cut it up and I'm going to grind it up. I'm not going to add any filler. Like this is what I've got right now. Or did you really jump into like, all right, if we're going to do this, let's add the sausage in now. Let's add the sticks and the jerky in now. Or are you still not on the smoke and cook side?
Anna Borgman (14:27.854)
We're not doing anything cured or smoke right now. That's just kind of, I would love to do that eventually, because I know that's what people really want. And I feel bad that we don't do it. We just, we've got so much other stuff going on right now. We can't quite take that on, but I will do, you know, I'll talk with people and try to figure out, do you want trim? So you can take it to any number of people who will do that for you, or, you you can do it yourself. We have a lot of people that do that, but we started out with sausage right away, at least fresh sausages. So like,
Breakfast, we'll do bulk or link. Bratwurst, I we have a sweet Italian. There's a place nearby, Sausage Equipment Supply, it's run by one of our friends and she's got just great mixes. I went to culinary school, that's kind how I got into butchery and got really into sausage making there. So it's not a huge undertaking as far as I'm concerned. It's a pretty good moneymaker too, on top of just the main processing. I want to offer something else because
It's nice to have steaks and roast, but it's nice to have, you know, some breakfast sausage and a bratwurst and all that. So yeah, we jumped right into that and we get, you know, we get pork fat and beef fat from a local spot in Bozeman. So yeah, you can do all that.
Nick Otto (15:43.231)
That's awesome. That's awesome. I know I've wanted to cut up a deer for friends and you know, I got myself a chamber vac and so when I go through and I, you know, clean up their stakes, right? You know, take their grind and I do put it in a bag. I, was pre me having a, a, a grinder that could handle that, that I owned. And I really was like, man, like I just can't, I like, that's that one stepping stone. Like I can give people awesome cuts and I can them their trim back.
And a later date we could do, we could do burger or we could do sausage. So hearing that you guys have like, you know what, if we're going to do this, we're going to dive in because you're right. You're absolutely right. When it says people are going to want, they're going to want breakfast sausage. They're going to want their, their summer sausage mix ready to go. Like that's, that's going to be what brings people in. That's going to make what, what makes chaos take off is they're going to want to be able to have that going beyond.
Anna Borgman (16:36.94)
Yeah, the grinder thing is huge. Just, I mean, we, think the first year we did it, we had a little hand crank grinder and I just about lost my mind. That thing drove me insane. And we finally last year, bit the bullet and bought like a really nice, like it's an electric, well, we have a nice grinder and we bought an electric stuffer. And holy cow, it's got a foot pedal and it's just like, I mean, we can.
Nick Otto (16:46.407)
You
Nick Otto (16:58.69)
there you go.
Anna Borgman (17:03.384)
crank through stuff and like there aren't any motors overheating or anything like that. So it was a it was worth the investment made. I would tell anyone that if you're doing a lot of stuff, you know, grinding or stuffing, just if you're doing enough to make it worth, you know, the investment, holy cow, you'll have so much more fun doing it. And then yeah, if your friends want to do it, want you to do it for them. It makes it a lot more pleasurable than just, you know, slogging through it and being having a rough time. That's not fun.
Nick Otto (17:31.241)
Right. I was cheating. I would take it over to the farm processing and it took longer to clean the grinder than it did to grind all of my venison. And that's like twice through and that's with fat added. And it was like, you know, I really liked it, but I was also like, man, dude, you got to do this on your own. Like I thought you said you were a man of what, you know, doing your own stuff and here you are like sneaking into the farm to use the grinder. So I did end up buying
Anna Borgman (17:38.507)
Anna Borgman (17:55.96)
Yeah.
Nick Otto (18:00.465)
a one and a half horse and that is one that I can't slow it down. It is that's been a great investment. So yeah, those couple of years where I was kind of searching around what I wanted to do, like you're absolutely right. Bigger is better when it comes to grinders. So did you guys buy a floor mounted one or you got still have a like counter mounted or tabletop version grinder that you guys are stuffing through or do you like go old school Hobart and have the big cast iron one?
Anna Borgman (18:28.014)
Man, I want one of those big Hobart ones. know, like when we were at the shop, that was, that thing is just a beast and it'll go through. We don't, we don't do enough animals and really we're good with having the tabletop grinder right now because we do, and I know this, I know this is not a thing with all processors, but we do individual animals, right? Like, so when you get your animal back, it is just the meat from your animal.
cause I know some of those bigger processors, they'll say that it's your, all your meat, but, if you're, if you're doing enough meat to, you know, make it worth it using one of the big, the big grinders, you probably have more than one animal in there from my experience. That's what it seems like. But so if we're just doing a deer or an elk, you know, and it's like, we got to do a couple batches through the grinder, but we're just doing one elk and it's, you know, 20 pounds and 30 pounds of burger or whatever.
Nick Otto (19:10.643)
Yes.
Anna Borgman (19:24.14)
We don't need anything bigger than that. And then our stuffer is pretty enormous, but still, you know, table mounted. We don't, we don't need anything crazy. If we were doing beef, we'd need a bigger setup, but we're good for now.
Nick Otto (19:35.391)
Yeah. I'm glad you answered that question that I ultimately was not going to ask. I was not going to ask if you were animal specific because I know that is such a touchy area. And when you start getting into large amounts, large amounts, I get it. Like you need to get a 50 pound batch of sticks, summer sausage, or you name it, breakfast sausage. Like that's what the package calls for to weigh that out.
Anna Borgman (19:41.658)
I know.
Nick Otto (20:03.903)
and to now have, you know, essentially waste of whatever seasoning you were going to put in based upon measurements. You know, it's easy just to make a 50 pound batch and be like, you know what, sorry, Jim and Jody, but we're putting this all together and you're going to have to just, you know, you got two deer in here at least. But at the same time, like you are saying, you know, when yours comes in because of the smaller setup, the more unique setup you guys have, it allows you to do that individual animal.
Anna Borgman (20:12.184)
Mm -hmm.
Nick Otto (20:32.467)
That's yeah, not every place can say that. So that's really good.
Anna Borgman (20:36.898)
Yeah, fair enough to places that are doing, you know, just crazy amounts. I don't, I don't know that that capacity really happens in, you know, where we are in Montana, but I've seen processors in, in Michigan, for example, that I'm just like, that is unbelievable number of animals in there and you gotta get through them. So, you know, I've never had to do that. So I can't, I can't blame anyone for what they have to do, but it is nice to, to do it this way and to.
to be dead certain that people are getting exactly their stuff back. Cause people treat their stuff differently. I mean, we get, it runs a gamut of the condition of the animals that come in. And I'm trying to come up with some sort of like standard where, it's like, do we want to take stuff that only has skin on? Do we want to take stuff that's not boned out? Like, what do I want to tell people? And I know people run into all sorts of stuff, trying to pack things out. So I don't want to turn people away because of something they had to do in the field, but.
Yeah, I do. I mean, that's why I do. teach slaughter and butchery classes because I want people to have a real grasp of like, here's the easiest way to do it, not just for yourself, but so that it's clean by the time it gets to the processor too. So yeah. And I want people, know, if you, if you were doing something, something not so great, you know, like we've had people call us and they've had an antelope in the back of their truck for three days. And it's like mid September. It's like, what are you doing? You know, like I'll take it.
I'm not very happy about it and that stuff drives me nuts, but I'm not going to put that in with something, you know, something that someone treated super, super well. And yeah, I'm just not going to do that. So that's where we're at.
Nick Otto (22:16.177)
Yes. And I bet you those guys said, you know what, this Antelope, he was pretty gamey.
Anna Borgman (22:22.422)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like, I could tell you, can tell you the science behind why it tastes like that. I saw what you did do it. Yeah. That drives me nuts.
Nick Otto (22:33.849)
my goodness. You know, I don't want to say berate, but I do wag a finger at guys who do. Same thing in Michigan. Hey, you're going to drive that thing around to three or four different coffee shops and gas stations just to catch your buddies around. it's like, look, it's the 21st century folks. Take some pictures, shoot them around, get that thing hung up and get it cooled down. Like really take care of this thing.
Anna Borgman (22:48.235)
Ha
Anna Borgman (22:57.442)
Right.
Nick Otto (23:02.591)
And then they wonder why, shoot, you know, even the hide, the hair's starting to slick out already. It's like, well duh, the thing's been, you know, sitting in the back of your truck. got to 65 today. Like, yeah, it's going to be warm.
Anna Borgman (23:03.555)
Yeah.
Anna Borgman (23:15.054)
Yeah.
Nick Otto (23:19.069)
And you just mentioning -
Anna Borgman (23:19.424)
Yeah, those things that I mean, the muscle. sorry. I was just gonna say that the spots, it'll go bad real fast or often the spots that you want to keep fresh, you know, like around ball joints and the back legs and even those back straps because they were against the guts a little bit. It's like, just get that stuff cooled down, get it skinned out. And yeah, if you want the hide or something and man, skinning out, like caping heads that have been out for days on end, that stuff is so nasty sometimes. So
It's just, better for everyone if you just take care of it right away.
Nick Otto (23:54.281)
So we've covered, we've covered your worst, worst client. We don't need to add a name to him at all, him or her. But same time, like you were mentioning a little bit, having a standard that you would say, Hey, as a processor, I want to get you the best quality meat that you, that you could, that I want to, I want to provide that to you, but it's going to take some work on your end too.
Anna Borgman (23:59.239)
That's right.
Nick Otto (24:20.179)
What are some of those pinpoints? If you were to put together a bulleted list, say maybe three or five things, what are going to be those items that you're going to want to tell both, I mean, shoot hunter, daily hunters, I would guess we would call us out East. You know, we got, we get our game and there's a good chance that we're going to be able to get it back that night versus someone who's out in the field, out in the mountains, like packing that out. We're going to be some things that we want to focus on. What are they going to be those highlights of that list that you're going
Anna Borgman (24:51.532)
I'd say if you're getting stuff out whole, leaving the hide on is super helpful. It's gonna keep dirt off, keeps everything clean, it just protects everything. And then by the time you go to cut that up and you get it skinned, you're not trimming off, if there is any fat on there, you're not having to trim that little bit, nice bit of fat off, because it's covered in dirt or whatever. Being super careful about gutting.
and I know, you know, you're going to have a gut shot every now and then, and you're going to have to deal with that, but trying to keep it clean inside there. Cause any of that bacteria, you're just going to, it's just, you're just losing meat because it's going to have to be trimmed off. At least that's what we do. I, you know, the way I learned, at least during doing state inspected slaughter is like, if there was a contaminant on the meat, we're not washing it off or trimming it off. Cause that way, you know, it's actually off. and any sort of bacteria that's on there is not going to end up in the food. Cause that's my nightmare.
But, yeah, living hide on, I don't, I don't know what processors out there wanting. would imagine that's pretty standard, but even for you, it's, think it's going to make it easier. for people that are packing stuff out and having to quarter it out, you know, there's only so much you can do. think trying to keep stuff cool, try not to drag it through the dirt and, and really doing the work to figure out like. Or something out instead of just hacking at it, you know, have, do some pre -planning.
so that you know you're not cutting into the backstrap or you're not just slashing away at, you know, a top round or a bottom round. Like do a little bit of pre -planning to figure out it's not going to be perfect. And you know, all, all the meat's still going to be edible. But if you're really worried about cuts and you want some nice, nice meat coming back, you know, doing your planning beforehand to figure out how to really quarter that stuff. Cause I'll get game bags full of stuff. Like I dump out the little bag and I'm shaking it out and there's like,
I don't know, 30 quarter size pieces of meat that are just covered in dirt. And it's like, I bet these looked fine when you did it, but I have to throw it away. You know, I can't trim off just to get a little teeny tiny bit of meat. So I'd say like, you know, being mindful of what it's going to look like by the time you're pulling it out of the bag, is this going to be covered in dirt and not worth cutting up? That's fine. Just either, you know, leave it out there and throw it away when you get back. But yeah, trying to leave things as whole and clean as possible is it's, it's helpful for me, but it's helpful.
Anna Borgman (27:16.888)
for you too if you're the one at the end doing it.
Nick Otto (27:21.223)
You, you have studied so much in butchery. Like the last thing you want to do is also a moonlight as a forensic investigator, as you're popping that bag. Like what muscle is this? Like what was this part of the rib? Or am I looking at something else? I could totally, I could totally get that. It's like, when I bring it to you, like, I don't want to say good luck. I want to say, enjoy the process. That's what we want to do.
Anna Borgman (27:47.79)
Yeah.
Nick Otto (27:49.629)
Not tell the person who's bringing you your stakes. good luck. See what you can get out of it.
Anna Borgman (27:55.254)
Yeah. And you're like, I don't even know what this came out. This is insane. There's just like chunks and slabs that have been flayed. I'm like, geez, this was, you know, this was the top round and now it's just a bunch of chunks, which that's fine. I'll grind it, but it'd be cool if I could give you a roast or some steaks out of that. Cause it's going to, that's what I really want to do. You know, give you the best stuff.
Nick Otto (28:15.433)
There you go. There you go. We talked a little bit about the sausage making already. You're doing that in -house. You're doing those, like you said, per individual, which I think is super cool. Going through your Instagram, again, I'm kind of looking into the background a little bit and seeing the shop set up, just what you've put into the background. And again, you guys working out of a pole barn.
Anna Borgman (28:28.024)
Mm
Nick Otto (28:45.543)
It looks very clean from what I'm looking at, it's like, it's one of those things like, you know, you got the I beams going across and then you can use, you know, you've got your shackles hanging up there, holding up big animals. When you were designing your shop set up, were you kind of mimicking what you had at the slaughter facility because they had already kind of perfected that, or did it take a little bit of time where you were like, all right.
We need to get our hoists here and then we also have to get our cutting table here and figure out your process. What did it take for you to get your shop set
Anna Borgman (29:22.732)
Well, our shop set up right now, you're right. It is a little sort of like shed pole barn. It's definitely not my dream situation. And we're kind of just working with what we have. It's, yeah, it's not necessarily designed in a way that I would design it right now. We're just rolling with what we have. Jesse is a knife maker, but he's a blacksmith too. And so he has made a bunch of kind of hooks specific to hanging, you know,
pine quarters up on there so that we can just cut them off. We don't have a hoist in there right now, but we've got one outside that we can hoist stuff up on. Right now we're working on building out a trailer. It's like a utility trailer that half of it will be a cooler and half of it will be the cutting area. We're really focused on having cooler space because that means we can do a lot more animals.
do it during archery instead of just, you know, having to wait till it cools down. yeah, the dream though is definitely to have a shop once we get this house done, that'll be the next thing we do. And it was really helpful being, you know, at the shop that I was at, because you get a sense of what works and what doesn't. And that shop also was super old. So we were working with what was already there and trying to, you know, make the best of what we have. But I'm excited to, hopefully I would say next spring we'll start.
we'll pull our foundation and start working on building a shop and it'll be specific to what we want and what we need and we'll have all the bells and whistles.
Nick Otto (30:58.335)
There you go, brick and mortar over 10 in screws. Something a little bit more secure, something a little more sturdy.
Anna Borgman (31:02.58)
Exactly. Yeah. mean, we're just like, you know, it's, I didn't expect to leave the shop when we did. there were a number of reasons we left and, and I was kind of bummed, but it's like, all right, well, we're going to keep doing this. This is the thing we want to do. And so, you know, using friends shops that are custom exempt and just kind of, none of it has been ideal, but it gets it done and, we both get to do, you know, the thing we want to do and people get their animals processed and.
It's fine. It'll just be, man, it'll be nice to someday have it all set up the way we want it. And I think we'll be super, super grateful at that point.
Nick Otto (31:41.167)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I resonate because I'm out of a two stall, detached garage. the first year that I wanted to try to do it, I wanted to bring water down there, but there was, to it again, it's uninsulated, it's unheated. so in Michigan does like have a, have a spigot come up. Like I would have to blow that out every year, or it's going to freeze up and then it's going to leak and bust. And I, just was not dealing with that. So I was running hoses from.
the house all the way down into the shop. it just made, I blew so many hoses because like then we're driving over them and we're just blowing those up left and right. So I'm like, this just doesn't work. So yeah, like these little steps that I'm making to try and create a space that wasn't intended for this, but now like every little, every little thing that I did, even I'm really excited that I'm going to try this. So I found this Unistrut.
Anna Borgman (32:18.642)
Yep.
Thank
Nick Otto (32:39.027)
and it's essentially like, well I think it's steel. I believe it is steel if it's pressed and it's got a whole bunch of holes in it, but at the same time it's got a channel so you can run a trolley into it. And I'm literally gonna take this eustrut and turn it into a rail so at least I can hang up like four deer so when we have our big cut night.
Anna Borgman (32:54.04)
nice.
Nick Otto (33:02.983)
When it comes to the weekend after the opener in Michigan, we can bring all of our deer in rather than like, all right, Jimmy, go get your deer. We got to now hang it up. Like we've been outside freezing the whole time. So now we're going to have to chip the ice off before we get after it. You'll able to have a rail in there. I did figure out the water system. It's, it's on paper right now, but I'm going to get an RV, water pump.
Anna Borgman (33:11.767)
You
Anna Borgman (33:15.266)
Ugh.
Nick Otto (33:30.751)
And I'm going to hook that onto a 55 gallon drum. And that's going to run into basically a utility sink that I'm going to put into a French well in the back. I have yet to dig the hole to put the, gravel and the sand down in there, but essentially like I'm turning, I'm turning nothing into something and it's going to look super redneckish. But I feel at home here in Michigan, the rural side of Michigan, like, what? think this will fly. And I may even have a few people be like, that's
Anna Borgman (33:52.184)
you
Nick Otto (33:59.911)
That's a really good idea. We're going to go with it.
Anna Borgman (34:04.066)
Yeah. I mean, man, you even go to places that are like actual processors and you walk in and you're like, I could do this with my garage. You know, they're really, it's, think the fancy stuff is real few and far between. And you go in and a lot of the shops that are even state inspected, it's not, you know, they're clean, but they're pieced together piece by piece. Cause a lot of people start out, you know, the way that you are, you or I have where you just have to work with what you got. then.
you know, keep adding on to it, throw some insulation out, throw some dairy board up, whatever you do and get an on demand hot water heater or whatever. someday it's legit, but it might look rough, you know, to begin with.
Nick Otto (34:41.831)
Right, right. As you've been building this, building confidence in your customers. One of the big things I find too with Wild Game is we also, we bang on the drum that we got the meat, we're the only hands or there's only been a few hands that have touched this meat. It was me and my processor or it was just me because I butchered it up. There's no recalls because all the recalls happened on the domestic.
Well, part of that is because it's also inspected. So they find it on our side to continue to keep having confidence. We want to be able to not only have a quality product, but we want to have a clean product. When you are prepping the shop, when you are done and it's time to clean shop, what kind of chemicals are you using? Are we using stuff that's right off the shelf that we can we can get as retailers?
Anna Borgman (35:14.114)
All right.
Nick Otto (35:40.759)
Or do we have to then, do we have to like dive into the internet and find some of the specific stuff, say sanitizer or even, you know, more powerful soap that is going to break down grease a little better? What is the stuff that chaos is using?
Anna Borgman (35:57.546)
We don't use anything crazy. mean, we use, you know, Dawn soap and that's what I've used on a slaughter floor. And I do chicken slaughter once a week now, and it's at a custom shop too. And we use Dawn soap there. And then if something, you know, once everything's clean, we'll do a little bleach wipe down. but that's about it. I mean, it's not, you know, like if you go into a restaurant, you'll have the three compartments sink where you've got sanitizer and water and all that. And we could totally do that. I mean, at the
At the state inspected shop, we did have one of those for the end of the day, like on the cutting side, but really as far as even inspected places are concerned, as long as you've got soap and as long as the stuff that needs to be bleached out is bleached out, you're fine. We also, we're going to get one this year. Get a little like a, the one that we used to use was like a metal milk, the old timey sort of milk tin. I don't know, they're like two and a half feet tall, maybe.
and throw a heater in there. So you have super, super hot water, for sanitizing knives so that you're not wiping it down with bleach. And then, you know, end up getting this little bleach smell on your meat. I hate that. So just having super, super hot water, and sanitizing your tools while you're doing that is that's also, up to regs as far as the state's concerned. So it's nice, you know, having that in your, your little shop. But yeah, we don't use anything crazy. It's.
Nick Otto (37:01.776)
Nick Otto (37:24.829)
Yeah.
Anna Borgman (37:27.512)
It's pretty stuff you can get really easily.
Nick Otto (37:31.465)
Good deal, good deal. have a, I got a wood stove in there. Maybe I'll just like, just make sure I boil the water and then all the cutlery can go into the last step. We'll go with, we'll go with that. Cause yeah, that's one thing too. Like I hear people talk about that. And then at the same time, I'm also like, I, when I cut up a buddy's deer, I'm like, I want to make sure that he's got confidence in him. He's not just giving it to me because well, Nick's going to do it. And I've seen him do a good job, but to eat.
Anna Borgman (37:39.64)
Yeah.
Nick Otto (38:00.079)
also have confidence when he opens the bag and be able to cook that meat. Like he's proud to take that. Not only did he kill it, but the same time, like, Hey, I know the guy who processed it and this is going to be good for my family. And I would just, I know it would eat me alive if they were to get sick off, off meat like that, that it was because they picked it up off my table or because of laziness. It, you know, like I feel like it comes back on me. So as a business, as a small business owner, I'm sure that's something you roll over.
night and again just like man this guy brought me a three day old pronghorn and now I gotta make sure that he doesn't get sick from it what are we even gonna give him
Anna Borgman (38:34.623)
the
Anna Borgman (38:40.556)
Totally. Yeah. It's like, you know, I feel bad for them because I'm going to have to trim a lot, but it's also like, I'm to do the best I can with what you gave me. And the last thing I'm going to do is give you something that I would not be comfortable eating. And I, you know, I wouldn't feed it to kids. I wouldn't feed it to anyone. So, and you know, after years and years of cutting meat and seeing all kinds of stuff, you know, on the, from the kill floor all the way to the cutting room, really having a pretty good understanding of when something is
is not really edible anymore. And I think people have a hard time, especially with venison and elk and stuff like that, where it does smell different, right? It doesn't smell like beef or pork, which beef doesn't have a whole lot of a smell. And when you'll smell a piece of venison, especially if it's a couple of days old, it smells like something. It smells like an animal. And I think a lot of people will confuse that with it being bad.
And that can be like a real skill to learn is learning the difference between what just smells like a wild animal and what is it what smells like bad meat and you know, it'll have a color. It'll have a slimy feel to it. You'll definitely know you'll know when it's not good. And yeah, we're super, super careful about that. Keeping everything clean. I'm like really hardcore about wiping down cutting boards, especially because if you lay down, say,
a back quarter that was skinned out and has dirt on one side or, you know, blood or whatever. I like to trim all the blood out just because that'll go bad the fastest. So if you have blood, you know, a bloody piece of meat in your grind, that's going to get nasty faster than anything else. So I like to trim out any bloodshot, any of that. but then if it's on the cutting board, wipe that down too, just so we're not like transferring it to other clean pieces of meat or whatever that might be.
Nick Otto (40:30.249)
Gotcha. Yes, it's an extra step. However, you're going to be happy with it at the end. I know what I'm as I'm training my guys when we're we're going through and we're cutting, you know, again, I go back to our after gunseat or after the first weekend of gun season, everybody's got their deer hanging up and guys take little shortcuts here and there, as I'm sure anybody on the cut floor, they're going to take little shortcuts when it's one of those things like, no, take a step back this.
Anna Borgman (40:37.176)
Yeah.
Nick Otto (40:56.893)
This is what we need to do. Let's take a timeout. Let's wipe the table. Let's clean this off. And now let's start again. eventually it becomes efficient and eventually you do see it on the other side. You can't get away from breaking animals always breaks you. At least that's what I tell them. Cause they walk out of there like, shoot, my shoulder is killing me or like, man, my lower back is all bent out of shape and raise that counter up, bring it up to where it's counter, you know, instead of working on a,
fold out cutting table or excuse me, a fold out long fold out table, like raise it up to counter side. These guys are shoot, they're Dutch. So they're super tall. And here I am like five eight, not having a problem, but it's the same time. Like lift this up guys. It's going to save your back in the long.
Anna Borgman (41:44.558)
that's like, mean, being the only girl at a butcher shop, you learn to, you know, work with the stuff that's too tall. And if you lower it down, everyone else is complaining that it's too short. Yeah. You learned how to sort of mess with that. will say the, you know, your shoulder hurting or your hand hurting at the end of it. Cause when I first started cutting at the shop, we would break, I think we would cut through about 12 steers a day. And we were just, I would just be wrecked at the end of the day.
And what I really realized was that my knife just wasn't sharp enough. Like that will do the most damage, right? You know, while you're cutting stuff. if you're just sawing through stuff and your knife is not sharp, man, it's miserable. You're going to hurt yourself and you're not going to want to do it again. You might not be able to do it again, you know, even with a sharp knife. mean, like I, you know, I, kill about 400 chickens a week and then, and then cut them throughout the week. And my knife is super sharp. I just about took my finger off the other day, but I also.
Nick Otto (42:29.727)
you
Anna Borgman (42:42.476)
You know, I have some arthritis in my thumb and I have a ganglion cyst from overuse of my wrist. so it's that's with a sharp knife. So with a dull knife, it's it's painful. It's not it's not worth it.
Nick Otto (42:53.331)
Yeah, no. That hone, especially when you're doing the multiple cuts, you're doing the whole animal by yourself, having your hone right next to you and use it, not just do the fancy, but like really, you know, four swipes on one side, four swipes on the other. Hey, now everything goes a little bit easier. Every time you touch the, I'm using the steel table. Every time I touch the table, I don't just use the hone. Rather than save my, save myself that little bit.
Anna Borgman (43:01.398)
Mm -hmm.
Nick Otto (43:22.815)
You know, it took 15 seconds, but it's going to save me, shoot, years on the backside.
Anna Borgman (43:28.918)
Totally, I always have my steel hanging from, if I have a scabbard on, it's hanging from my hip. If I am not wearing my scabbard, it's sitting on the table next to me. And it's fun, you know, doing chicken slaughter with people that don't usually do that kind of stuff. And they have the sharpeners that you kind of drag your knife through. And I don't love those. I don't think they do what you want. You you're not going to get the super sharp knife you want, but being like, I'm going hand me your knife and just hone it on the steel real quick. And they go to cut the next thing. You're like, my God.
Like this is all you need really. don't need, know, sharpen it on a stone every now and then, but holy cow, having to have it a steel is lifesaver.
Nick Otto (44:07.603)
right. And having a boyfriend who makes knives, I'm sure that also helps to have enough cuddly around.
Anna Borgman (44:10.83)
I'm so, so spoiled. It's absurd. Yeah, you know, I was using the Kornach's knives forever and I it was what was cheap and they're great. You know, they'll get the job done for sure. But yeah, I get pretty spoiled where he'll come up with a new boning knife design. And I'm like, I could
try that out for you if you want to make one for me and I have more knives than I know what to do with now and I'm always like, well, this one's my favorite that I see, you my skinner. actually this one's my favorite. Then my hunting knife. That one's my favorite. It's I'm super spoiled. It's yeah, it's great. It is. Yeah.
Nick Otto (44:48.511)
It's a good place to be. That's yeah. Yeah. Must be nice. Must be nice. That's funny. You mentioned the Victorinox because that's, I think that's probably the industry standard. I use those and Dexter's and because yeah, they're cheap. If I get a buddy who's like, I want to learn how to do this. And he starts putting it into a, into a socket and he ends up snapping the tip off. You know, he feels really bad. And I'm like, dude, it's 20 bucks. Like, but we learned a lesson here, didn't we? Like this, that's more valuable than anything else. it is funny. see.
Anna Borgman (45:16.662)
Absolutely.
Nick Otto (45:18.077)
guys want to start out and they get a really expensive knife to do this. And I'm like, bud, like, I'm really sorry. You're going to, you're going to break that thing. Like it's, or you're not going be happy. You're going have to sharpen it, but you're not going to have the tools to sharpen it. Cause it's such hard, hard steel. That's why I like those, those vitro knocks, the, the dexter's or shoot. Even the, I know guys love those wild edge ones, super high carbon steel. You can put an edge on super easy.
Anna Borgman (45:26.766)
Yeah.
Anna Borgman (45:34.317)
Yeah.
Anna Borgman (45:41.582)
Mm
Nick Otto (45:44.913)
almost quicker than taking the edge off when you touch the knife or stab it into a bone.
Anna Borgman (45:49.422)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, our head butcher at the shop who had been cutting for, I don't know, 30 years. mean, the guy that literally I learned butchery from, he refused to use anything but Victorinox. And he had the old wood handled ones. And my God, those things were sharp. It was, but he swore by him and he cut every single thing that went through that shop with those knives.
Nick Otto (46:07.451)
yeah.
Anna Borgman (46:15.854)
You know, we're over there with our fancy knives that Jesse makes for us. he's like, those are great, but these are cheap. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they're, you know, professional butchers are using them all the time. So don't feel bad about spending 20 bucks.
Nick Otto (46:30.463)
Absolutely. 20 bucks well spent. Cause shoot, I've had mine for years. You know, ever since I picked this, I picked this hobby up and now I have a hobby of a hobby that's helping out another hobby. And it's just a deadly road. I'm, I'm shoot. I'm talking to somebody in that same, same basket. We just can wrap right around to say, Hey, stop thinking. There's gotta be a harder way to do things.
Anna Borgman (46:48.524)
Yep.
Exactly. Also, if you do want a fancy knife, I would recommend buying one from Jesse. So they're worth it.
Nick Otto (47:00.735)
Well, let me just click this right here. Follow. All right. got Jesse on follow now, so I get a chance to check his out. we'll, we'll see, we'll see what he can come up with. Well, Anna, this has been such an awesome time. feel like, shoot this, this 45 minutes has just melted away. This has been so fun to just get a chance to talk with, somebody who is doing kind of like what, man, what I wish I was doing. I'm still pulling the nine to five. We'll be able to, pull the trigger.
Anna Borgman (47:06.828)
Perfect.
Yeah.
Nick Otto (47:30.025)
be a small business owner and really take life by the horns and, and make something of it. So know that there's going to be a lot of people tuning into this episode and they're going to be like, yeah, we, love what you're doing, man. You're living our little dream. I got my last question here, as someone who deals with meat and deals with butchery and deals with everything culinary as well.
If things were to come down to the point where this was your last meal, you were going to get a chance to, cook your favorite meal. What is that going to be for your last one?
Anna Borgman (48:11.788)
Geez, I'd probably have to say it's something I eat, know, at least pretty regularly in the winter. It's a little too hot right now to make it, but beef cheeks are one of my favorite things on the planet. And I even, pulled some elk cheeks off last fall, so I'm going to cook those up at some point, but just a slow braise on some beef cheeks. And then you get some mashed potatoes and that'd probably have to be it.
Nick Otto (48:13.191)
I know it's a curve.
Nick Otto (48:41.232)
The last meal is going to be some cheeks. those hard worked muscles, the way that you can just slow cook those things down. And it just turns into velvet goodness. I, I'm a little bit, I'm novice to cheeks yet, like shanks is my go -to. I love that. But shoot, man, now I'm like, you know, let's get to the heads. Let's start pulling cheeks out. That sounds like that sounds delicious.
Anna Borgman (48:52.087)
They're so good.
Anna Borgman (48:59.031)
Yeah.
Anna Borgman (49:05.878)
Yeah, I mean, even on a deer, I've pulled off, you know, at the shop doing slaughter, people would ask for stuff and most people didn't want cheeks. So we'd end up with some beef cheeks or some even pork. But I've pulled cheeks off of sheep too. They're tiny little, you know, silver dollar size, but you can get them off anything.
Nick Otto (49:23.817)
Right. Well, shoot again, I want the cheeks for myself. I don't need enough to feed multiple people. This is, this is all about me at this point. I don't need it.
Anna Borgman (49:32.448)
Yes, just two bites.
Nick Otto (49:37.117)
Well, Anna, if my guests are, or excuse me, if my listeners are looking to find more about you more about chaos, where are you going to send them? Where can people find out more about what you're
Anna Borgman (49:49.902)
I'm on my Instagram a lot, probably more than I should be, but it's at Anna Borgman, just my name. And then we've got a new Instagram for the farm. It's chaosfarmsmt. That's our Instagram over there. So we have, we've got our goats up there and you know, the chickens and then once processing really picks up, we'll have a bunch of stuff on there. And I really, the thing I like doing the most is teaching. So my favorite thing about using Instagram is
Just putting out, you know, little tidbits of what we're doing and teaching people better techniques and having that sort of like instant way to, to show people what's up and they can ask questions. Yeah. So I'm on there a lot. If anyone wants to message me or ask questions or, or needs anything processed and is in Montana.
Nick Otto (50:37.523)
Well, perfect. know you got, you got a bunch of likes coming your way. That's what I was doing at lunch. Just kind of prepping for this episode. Like, like, like lots of information there. So Anna, this is going to be our warmup episode. have a feeling there's going to be quite a few of these as I come up with some more, more deep diving questions. may need your expertise. So hold on just for a second.
Anna Borgman (50:42.26)
you
Anna Borgman (50:58.23)
I'm down and hopefully I'll end up in Michigan at some point we can cut up a deer.
Nick Otto (51:02.967)
absolutely. Anytime, Anna, anytime. I'm going to let my listeners on out. So hold on just a second. Folks, I've hope you enjoyed this, this hour as much as I have just deep diving into a little bit of just a love for everything. That's wild. A love for everything that is real getting in and being able to handle our own meat and talking a little bit about shop.
Anna Borgman (51:06.968)
That was sweet.
Nick Otto (51:28.807)
Maybe you're a DIY person that's trying to put their own shop together. Maybe you just do one or two deer. Heck, maybe you're trying to do a whole bunch of deer and you're going to be taking some absolute notes on this episode. So whether it's going to be on the processing side or you're just wanting to be the guy that's going to be able to provide their best animal to a processor, make sure the knife you are using is very sharp.
Nick Otto (51:55.314)
and I'm gonna press stop.
